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White holes

  1. Mar 27, 2005 #1
    Are there white holes pumping space into our universe causing inflation to exceed the rate at which matter is leaving the universe by black holes ?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 27, 2005 #2

    chroot

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    Much like the pink elephants dancing on your forehead, they cannot be definitively proven to not exist; on the other hand, no such objects have ever been found.

    - Warren
     
  4. Mar 27, 2005 #3
    would it help if we knew what we were looking for and maybe what we are looking for is right under our noses but too small to see ?

    would a signature of a white hole be expansion taking place at every point in spacetime, which is what is happening only on a discrete scale as opposed to a massive scale expunging of matter into a black hole and possibly into another mirror imaged universe and so the cycle gets repeated ?

    Isnt that the guts of Bojowalds theory ?
     
  5. Mar 27, 2005 #4
    ok so if no one answers does that mean no one knows and doesn't want to lose face by possibly giving a wrong answer ???

    If that question is too hard without referring to the maths then can someone in laymans terms tell us about the bounce that eliminates the singularity ???

    Does a black hole turn matter into space and feed it back into the universe fuelling expansion ???
     
  6. Mar 27, 2005 #5

    chroot

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    spicerack,

    No one is answering because your questions don't really make any sense. Try a different forum, like www.sciforums.com.

    - Warren
     
  7. Mar 27, 2005 #6
    gee thanx chroot

    but to be honest a lot of the maths by regular posters doesn't make sense to the layman either. I'm just trying to get a grasp on things by asking simple if leading questions in the hope that i might get simple answers.

    As it is this forum seems to foster only elitist dialogue and highly detailed and specific questions while scaring off the average person who may feel intimidated by the maths and papers

    perhaps you could try to make sense of my questions and re write them so they do make sense that would be much appreciated
     
  8. Mar 27, 2005 #7
    spicerack i think your question is very interseting, i am not a scientist or watever, but hey wat have they proven so far. with my limited knowledge i can say that matter can neither created nor destroyed. right? so what does a black hole do? as far as i know it sucks stuff up to never exit again. now i am not sure but are black holes made, or the result of a colapse or implosion of say, a massive star that has gone supernova? well fi that is the case, then a black hole would be a negative pressure. i think the universe is a very hard puzle to crack. so much crap to sort through.
    white hole in theory is equivalent to the opposite of a black hole as u mentioned. the main question to need an answer is what does a black hole do? does it simply compress evrything it can suck up to try fill the void left by the mass that has been converted into energy my what ever peosess occured? i have also come across pictures that show strange cords of energy shooting out of blackhole.... stange because it is a popular idea that nothing escapes a black holes grasp. if these cords spewing from such balck holes are not affected by the negative "pressure" (plz excuse my crude ideas) then what is it that the blackholes do? they suck up light. matter.

    your idea of a white hole is based on matter being destroyed and needinga balnce to make new, or move more to fill the void.
     
  9. Mar 27, 2005 #8
    my understanding is that a black hole rips apart matter from this universe compresses it til it can't anymore and forces a rip in the spacetime fabric and as suggested spits it out into another universe by a whitehole mechanism only in that universe it is mirror imaged and time runs backwards til it reaches a critical mass then it ???... does the big bang thing and so on we go

    so I was wondering what happens to space when the matter is sucked out of it???

    Does space get sucked into a black hole or just the matter. What then of the empty space does it expand because the matter no longer holds it into a limited shape so it can expand or does something immeadiately fill it and where does this something come from ???..a white hole ???.. a parallel universe ???

    on a side note the universe is expanding which means space is being created forcing objects to become further apart so is this happening by a large undetectable white hole in the middle of our universe or discrete units being pumped into our universe by a mechanism which is present at every point in spacetime

    think of a bubble machine making more bubbles which become foam with matter/energy being transferred through the membranes upon reaching a critical mass to form more bubbles

    apologies for the random rantings but i'm not trained to write this stuff as you can plainly see but I'm hoping someone can make sense of this and feed it back to me

    cheers
     
  10. Mar 27, 2005 #9

    chroot

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    Well, hey, the computer you're using and the electricity it's using are both due to science.
    The term 'negative pressure' presumably means something only to you. In fact, a black hole is externally no different than another object of comparable mass.
    A black hole doesn't do anything, nor try to do anything. A black hole is simply a lump of matter that is very small.
    What you are seeing are jets of matter and radiation flung off from the black hole's accretion disk, the whirlpool of matter orbiting it and slowly falling into it. The matter flug out into these jets did not yet actually fall into the black hole. The matter that actually gets into the black hole does not come out.

    - Warren
     
  11. Mar 27, 2005 #10

    chroot

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    All of this is pure speculation. No one knows what happens to mass when it "hits" the singularity at the center of a black hole, or even if there is a classical singularity there or not. In either case, black holes do not rip anything, nor send anything to any other universes, if indeed such other universes even exist.
    There is no "middle" of our universe.
    This is not the appropriate website to post your personal theories.

    - Warren
     
  12. Mar 27, 2005 #11
    sorry once again Warren

    they aren't my personal theories just ideas formulated by reading around and they aren't even my ideas. I think they are Martin Bojowalds but don't quote me on that...

    I am essentially asking questions trying to get a best guess of what is happening from people more learned than I

    You seem to know a bit so, what do you think happens in a black hole ???

    Please feel free to speculate away. Apparently speculation fueled most advances in cosmology.

    cheers
     
  13. Mar 27, 2005 #12
    Could you also please tell me what the "theory development forum" is for if not to post personal theories ???..why have it ???

    If this isn't the place to post then where is ???

    thanks
     
  14. Mar 27, 2005 #13

    chroot

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    The Finkelstein-Eddington coordinates allow a physicist to examine the interior of a black hole, at every point but at the singularity itself. We know that inside a black hole, all world-lines lead to the singularity. The radius from the singularity becomes a time coordinate, meaning the time to reach the singularity is necessarily finite.

    Once at the singularity, no one knows what will happen -- it's possible there is no singularity at all, and the mass just piles up in a quantum-mechanical way. It's possible that there is a classical singularity, and it just keeps accepting mass forever. The singularity itself is not well understood, because it requires both general relativity (the theory which describes gravitation) and quantum mechanics (the theory which describes the microscopic). At the moment, the two theories are not compatible.

    - Warren

    - Warren
     
  15. Mar 27, 2005 #14
    I'm sure you are familiar with LQG in particular Bojowald and his theory which eliminates the singularity and talks about a bounce or smolins baby universe reproduction by blackholes...

    I'm not going to pretend i understand it beyond a laymans perspective but it seems to tie in with whiteholes

    and all Im looking for is some clever spark to make a little sense of it for an inquisitive observer

    thanks
     
  16. Mar 28, 2005 #15
    A star is/could be a white hole. Think about it.
     
  17. Mar 28, 2005 #16

    chroot

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    mapper,

    Our models of stellar evolution are some of the most successful models in scientific history. It would be very unlikely that our model, based on nuclear fusion, could so precisely agree with observation if stars operated any other way. This white hole stuff is just folly.

    - Warren
     
  18. Mar 28, 2005 #17
    some of the more interesting follies have since become foundations of scientific enquiry

    but mapper I don't quite follow you on the star/white hole comparison could you expound please ?

    cheers
     
  19. Mar 28, 2005 #18
    Its nothing, I was just thinking what could be oposite of black hole and your thought on white holes. In the case of a star its radiating energy and information, was just a thought early in the morning. nm it.
     
  20. Mar 28, 2005 #19
  21. Apr 8, 2005 #20

    Mk

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    The matter doesn't go to another universe, it goes into the small lump of matter.

    To start off with here, remember, when you get into black/white/wormholes, we don't know much.

    The rip doesn't really happen, the mathematics break down near the black hole, and everything's messed up. It has been suggested that the matter is spat into another universe, through the black hole and its sister white hole, though time doesn't "run backwards." I don't know what you mean collectively by time running backwards until it hits a critical mass, starting a big bang, but I do know the big bang was a sudden expansion of spacetime, not where matter and energy came from.

    The sucking in of the matter, is a consequence of the bending of three-dimensional spacetime. Remember the analogy where spacetime is a rubber sheet, and the sun is a bowling ball, while the planets are marbels; the marbels want to fall into the depression caused by the sun (bowling ball). Similarly, passing matter wants to fall into the depression caused by the black hole. As for your empty space questions, since it is not completely empty, impying there is no spacetime, the empty space acts just as empty space found outside the earth's atmosphere, it just sits there.

    The universe is expanding according to leading theories, but new space is not being made, its the space that's expanding. As Chroot said, there is no "middle" of the universe.

    This is a leading theory on births of universes, as it seems you know. Though, no matter is transferred between p-branes, and to my knowlage, it is not known if there can be a critical mass to a universe. It is "pure speculation."

    And the strange cords of energy, are usually X-rays, radio waves, and Hawking radiation, most illustrations of black holes do not include jets of particles, but they almost always include accretion disks.

    He means negative energy, or maybe a cosmological constant with a value less than 1. Can't quite tell.

    Have a good one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2005
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