Who truly won the battle between Israel and Gaza?

[misgfool]

The 6th requirement of Jus Ad Bellum deals specifically with the issue of proportionality. This is defined in the Stanford Encyclopaedia as http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/ Note the emphasis on the Universiality element. The good of your own citizens has to be weighed against the likely harm to your enemy's citizens resulting from a proposed war. The high civilian death toll in Gaza including over 400 children raises the question was this requirement fulfilled?

Lets assume that a citizen from a state called Gaza walks into Tel Aviv. He is surrounded by 100 kids. Israeli know that they can't kill him without killing the 100 kids. He starts shooting Israeli citizens. Are you saying that Israel can't take him out until he has killed 100 Israeli citizens?

 

[Oerg]

"No one wins in war" is a naive platitude and certainly not generally true.

In the Gaza war, it is too soon to tell who is going to win. Hamas is in it for concessions from Israel about their borders, so if you see them in the cease-fire agreement, that's how you know they won. Israel is in it for a halt to the rocket and mortar attacks, so if they stop, Israel won.

the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.

 

[Alfi]

If they have chosen war as their solution , then yes! They ( the leaders ) are incompetent.

I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel. Israel is completely blameless in this.
It's rather unbelievable to me that anyone here can point the finger of blame at anything but Hamas. Sorry,

Actually EVO, we do not agree. The word leaders, is pluralized to indicate that both sides have leaders that are incompetent.
It is not unbelievable to me that many people can and do point the middle finger of blame at both sides in this conflict.
Sorry.

To me, an example of a 'war' that was won, is the cold war between the US and the USSR.
It was won by the eventual breakdown of one side due to spending ridiculous amounts of money trying to maintain an arms race.

 

[The Dagda]

Not only naive, but false. Did you just make this up?


http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007global_demil/SessionIIA/1410Garner.pdf

It does make it easier to understand his biased mentality though, when he is unaware of the basics facts on the ground. I mean turn on the news any day of the night and you can see phosphorous rounds being used to illuminate the battlefield.

 

[Hurkyl]

I suggest we persuade Israel into accepting Palestinians rights under international law, though funding cuts, and though economic sanctions if that is what it takes, ...

Blah blah blah. What about the rockets? Who's going to stop the rockets?

 

[russ_watters]

Not only naive, but false. Did you just make this up?

Sorry, I guess I should have said "Israel doesn't have any white phoshporus bombs". I didn't realize anyone still did. Israel used artillery shells. And yes, the distinction matters. When you use the word "bomb", you imply that the device is used to cause damage via explosion, as the primary definition of the word says.

It does make it easier to understand his biased mentality though, when he is unaware of the basics facts on the ground. I mean turn on the news any day of the night and you can see phosphorous rounds being used to illuminate the battlefield.

If you had read my entire post, you would see that I acknowledge that they are used: but that's' not the point. The point is that they are not used for the intent of harming civilians or causing fires and they are not illegal for their designed purpose.

Quibbling over wording aside, the logic is not difficult to follow here, guys. A claim was made that Israel is violating international law by using white phosphorus. That claim is demonstrably false.

 

[russ_watters]

Blah blah blah. What about the rockets? Who's going to stop the rockets?

They'll magically stop on their own, of course. Doesn't it make perfect sense that after getting Israel weakened, that Hamas will suddenly decide they don't want to destory Israel and stop fighting?

 

[russ_watters]

There is not a single part of that little strip of land that is not a "civilian area".

So what? Hamas could:

1. Choose to fight in Israel instead of Gaza.
2. Choose not to fight.

The choice to fight and to bring the fight to civilians on both sides is Hamas's alone.

Again, this is a very simple logical conundrum that Hamas faces. They were in a cease fire over the summer. A cease fire is a bad thing for them, because if fighting just plain stops, Israel's goals are met and Hamas's goals are not. And I don't mean the borders: if there was complete peace, Israel would open them - there'd be no reason not to. I mean the existence of Israel and the land the Palestinian state has are both unacceptable to Hamas. Every day that Israel continues to exist on holy land is a slap in the face to them. So they must keep fighting.

 

[russ_watters]

I've been wondering where these people are expected to go when they get a phone call that their houses are about to be blown up...

Seems pretty obvious to me: anywhere but there.

 

[Gokul43201]

Israel is completely blameless in this.

Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...

While the blame game can go on forever, I hope you realize that Israel isn't entirely innocent in trying to maintain peace.

I realize they are not.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65

 

[russ_watters]

I wouldn't call Hamas or it's members incompetent without first knowing their intent, which, more often as not boils down to power and enrichment of it's members at the greater expense of others. The embargo acts against these basic motivators.

Surely it's not a military win, they have in mind, but something else. They have an embargo they should wish to end in order to obtain a weapons supply. If they can't do this, they will loose the support of their international allies to another political party. They are also fighting a propaganda war.

I can think of only two possible motives:
1) to break the Egyptian embargo through influencing Egyptian public opinion
2) to obtain UN sanctions against Israel to end the Israeli blockage

Hamas don't have a lot of cards to play in either, or any other endeavor, but to fire missiles over the boarder, then cry foul when Palestinian civilians get killed in the backlash. They have plenty of shills, worldwide, to help spread the word as you can obviously see. But sacrificing civilians has always been a crowd pleaser to the Palestinians in this asymmetrical warfare, garnering wide international sympathy and armfuls of UN sactions against Israel, so it shouldn’t be underrated.

I argued essentially that in a previous thread. Hamas is doing what it can to get what it wants. In that sense, they are acting competently to achieve their goals.

Please don't misunderstand: that doesn't make their goals or actions morally right.

 

[russ_watters]

Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65

She is free to disagree with me Gokul. I won't get mad at her.

When I say that Israel is not completely blameless, I mean simply that their actions have not been perfect and that is simply because no actions can be in war. They've made mistakes, bombed targets they probably shouldn't have, miscalculated international reactions, etc.

So don't get me wrong: Israel has by far the moral high ground here, without question. But no one is perfect. And yeah, I realize that doesn't make for a strong statement, I just don't like absolutes in situations that are so messy.

 

[russ_watters]

the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.

While I basically agree, the problem is that what you are suggesting doesn't represent the goals/interests of either side. That's really why international peace efforts haven't made any progress. The international community just wants peace - addressing the goals of the two sides is secondary to them. That's the wrong way to approach the situation. A lasting peace can only be attained by addressing the goals of the two sides...and, of course, if the goals are mutually exclusive and there is no willingness to compromise, then there quite simply can be no peace and the international community should just stop trying. IMO, these little cease-fires do more to prolong the conflict than a quick and violent war would. (That's part of the point of the Starship Troopers quote).

 

[Gokul43201]

She is free to disagree with me Gokul. I won't get mad at her.

I was merely hoping to underscore how far Evo's assessment goes.

So don't get me wrong: Israel has by far the moral high ground here, without question. But no one is perfect.

I haven't ever said that Hamas has the moral edge over Israel or that the two sides are comparable from a moral standpoint. But saying that Israel is behaving more responsibly than a terrorist group is hardly a glowing endorsement. I think Israel had very few options but to take on Hamas militarily in Gaza, given what had been happening there. But I don't think they've been completely blameless in their execution of it. Nor do I think think they are completely blameless in the provocation of this war itself. For instance, I believe the blockade preventing access to health-care for critically ill children in Gaza was a bad move, even from a purely PR point of view.

 

[The Dagda]

Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65

Does anyone agree with Russ and Evo? genuinely I think they live on another world, because their shameless advocacy of Israel's disregard for the rules of war are mystifying. All I can guess is they've been brainwashed by the media?

 

[rootX]

the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Totally agree.

And, I don't know why people totally disregard the human loss. It is a loss for everyone who lost his/her families, left impaired or disabled, or lost the opportunities for better life.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.

I don't see any solutions unless:
1) Hamas is toppled over by some American culprit who is happy with whatever they have right now - looks possible.
2) Israel is accepted by all of ME (no support for Hamas) - looks pretty impossible.
I don't know much about the history. But I think UN/UK should have put little more thought back in 1948.
3) Either Israel or ME disappears - not going to happen.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel.

Hamas has a problem in that they have two goals. One is, as majority party in the PA, is statehood for Palestine. Another is, as a political movement, the destruction of Israel. (I will consider the calls for worldwide genocide of Jews as simply the rantings of their wackier members and not take that seriously).

If they were to stop all attacks, and adopt a stance of purely non-violent resistance, how long do you think the world could deny them statehood? Sure, there would be a wait and see period - but as days stretch to weeks and weeks to months, all without attacks, it would take all of the wind out of the sails of anyone who would argue that Israeli occupation is necessary for Israeli security.

The problem with this is that this conflicts with their second goal.

 

[ALYAZAN]

dear evo ..

Originally Posted by ALYAZAN
what about the huge number of innocent victims ?? .

That is solely the fault of Hamas, something that for some reason you fail to see. Hamas attacked Israel. It is ridiculous to think that Israel would not retailiate. And saying "oh, but innocent people got killed". Name a war in which innocent people did not get kiled. Then the nonsnese "oh, But Israel killed more palestinians than Hamas killed Israelis. So? This surprises anyone? Show me where is says that waring countries must be equal in casualties or damage. This is beyond naive, it's ridiculous

i thought that hamas is the one who is bombing shelling, using phosphorus attacking schools, hospitals and journalists .. and israel is the one fighting to defend Gaza

 

[tiny-tim]

Sderot

i thought that hamas is the one who is bombing shelling, using phosphorus attacking schools, hospitals and journalists .. and israel is the one fighting to defend Gaza

No, Israel is the one fighting to defend Sderot, and Hamas is the one who is bombing civilians and schools in Sderot, and has been for 8 years.

 

[ALYAZAN]

dear everybody

peace be upon u

i guess that it clear that israel after 22 days of using as much power as it could failed in every thing ... rockets wasn't stopped .. gaza still standing though of every ugly deed happened .. hamas wasn't broken .. even palestinian people got more liking it .. hundreds of tanks wasn't able to do nothing but killing children and women ..

in my opinion ..

from the huminitarian view both failed and especially israel ..

will if we wrapped the camara on the military side .. hamas won .. in comparison to upnormal quantity and type of weapons used in this war .. who would stand in front of such an army ?? in addition to that ... a lot of crimes israel did trying to terify the people but in vain ..

i found this site on the net .. it wasn't able to be described by words ..

all the troops not just hamas did that .. and was able to stop that army

but .. the civilian are greatest loss .. and the whole war is meaningless ..

 

[ALYAZAN]

Seems pretty obvious to me: anywhere but there.

seems pretty obvious: that proves that israel is targeting civilian .. in name of what israel is asking people to leave their own homes ??

and ain't it prohibited to destroy civilian houses that are used by their owners to live in in war time ?? ain't it a war crime ??

 

[tiny-tim]

destroying civilian houses

and ain't it prohibited to destroy civilian houses that are used by their owners to live in in war time ?? ain't it a war crime ??

No, not if they are next to a military site.

Artillery isn't completely accurate, and any house near a military target is likely to be hit.

For this reason, civilians living near a military target usually leave anyway.

Israel isn't obliged to warn them to leave, so the warnings show that Israel is doing more than is necessary under international law to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Hamas, which is deliberately turning civilian streets in Gaza into target areas, and which tries to kill as many civilians possible with its own rockets).

seems pretty obvious: that proves that israel is targeting civilian .. in name of what israel is asking people to leave their own homes ??

In the name of humanity.

 

[Phrak]

bleh

 

[jostpuur]

but my question is : who u think did really win this battle ??

Terrorists won, because they put Israel creating more terrorists. They are "reproducing", so to speak.

 

[Hurkyl]

I remember this thread used to be about a specific armed conflict, and the issues of civilian casualties in war. How (and why) did it turn into a soapbox for people to push their opinion on the entirety of Israeli history?

 

[Astronuc]

I remember this thread used to be about a specific armed conflict, and the issues of civilian casualties in war. How (and why) did it turn into a soapbox for people to push their opinion on the entirety of Israeli history?

Both sides hold on to the past to justify current actions. The conflicts in the middle east are unresolved issues from that last 3 millenia or so - not that they will be resolved in a thread on any internet site.

 

[ALYAZAN]

peace upo u

dear everybody

i have no enough time to read all these discussions .. but .. i guess that there is no need to try to convice anybody of what the fact is .. anybody who would not believe the shining and obvious fact on land .. will ever be conviced at all .. what ever was your effort .. and on the other hand the whole world now can see the truth of what this war was about ..

i' not going to discuss who won and who lost .. it's meaningless to discuss such an issue while >1300 innocent civilian were killed >40% of them are women and children .. >5300 were wonded >50% of them are women and children

as aljazeera says .. and the numbers here is alost the same to what western sources published about numberd of victims

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911915726719317.html

and this is one of the last pix I've seen .. it's very painfull that i can't thin of who won !
http://www.jamaa.cc/art20039.html
what kind of victory are we talking about ?? victory of killing people .. i believe that hamas is not responsible for all that .. from the very beginning .. hamas has been estabished to resist the israeli occupation .. so obviously israel is the cause and hamas is a reason of the israeli occupation .. if there were no israel there would never be hamas .. as simple as this

my opinion is that no political side won .. at all .. o military comparison between israeli army (tanks .. fighters .. weapons .. cutting edge technologies .. and nubmer of fighters) and those people .. have no single tank .. even the weapon they are using in front of the 4th largest army in the world are very simple and old ..

i'l never discuss in who won .. the ony one who won is the blood !

my word is just this .. may God help us see the right and help us follow it .. and may peace be upon the world

my thanks and prayers to everybody ..

 

[Vanadium 50]

.. hamas has been estabished to resist the israeli occupation .. so obviously israel is the cause and hamas is a reason of the israeli occupation .. if there were no israel there would never be hamas ..

Damn straight! If all those pesky Jews would just lay down and die we wouldn't be in this mess. It's all their fault.

(sheesh!)

 

[Evo]

Alayazan, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. You make it sound like Israel made an unprovoked attack on Gaza, when this simply is not the case.

And for the last time. There will be no more threads with the intention to point blame. This subject does nothing but antagonize people on both sides of this issue and accomplishes nothing.