Why do I pay more tuition for stupid courses I don't need?

[gravenewworld]

I hate how my school has a "core" requirement of liberal arts classes that are more of a pain in the ass, than a learning experience. I only take 2 classes that are related to my major while the other 4 are worthless classes that are required. Why do I pay for all these courses that will have no relevance to what I will ever do in the future? It just seems to me that some of these courses are required to keep some departments at the University alive, since if they weren't required no one would take them. I think this is a bit excessive for a "core requirement":

1 year of English-Intro and upper level
1 year of History-Intro and upper level
1 year of an INTERMEDIATE level of foreign laguage. (if you start at the intro level like I did, than you must take 2 years.)
1 year of theology-Intro and upper level
1 year of philosophy-Intro and upper level
1 semester of ethics-(upper level only offered)
1.5 years of social science ( must come from 2 AREAS-- 1 intro course in 1 social science, and 1 intro and 1 upper level in another social science.)
1 year of Core Humanities Seminar (learning about the classics and enlightment etc.)
1 semester of fine arts
1 year of Science with labs ( of course I naturally fufilled this)


Distribution of Requirements

Writing requirement (8 courses)- 4 courses must be "writing enriched" (10+ pages in 1 semester), and 4 courses must be "writing intensive" (25+ pages in 1 semester). 1 of the writing intensives must be in the student's major.

Diversity Requirement (2 courses)-- 2 different diversity courses must be taken in the requirements from courses that address women's issues, courses that focus on minorities and ethnic groups in the US, and courses that focus on culture, economics, politics, or ecology of societies and nations other than those in the Europe or the US.

1. A student may not use a single course to fulfill more than one category of the diversity requirement.

2. The diversity requirement cannot be fulfilled by independent study or a senior thesis.

3. Langauge courses cannot fulfill the requirement, although literature courses in a foreign language can fulfill the requirement provided they focus on appropriate material.


This many garbage required courses seems a little bit rediculous to me.

 

[Vega]

The theory is that you're supposed to become a more well-rounded person by being forced to take extra things. There's no way around it. It's actually not so bad though. If you plan appropriately, when you get to the hardest classes, you'll have some easy classes to take with them that won't take up so much of your time. I took a lot of classes that had nothing to do with my major, but with the exception of two of them, the rest I got at least something out of.

 

[Moonbear]

The idea is that if you come out with a college degree, you should know a little more about how the world around you works, and how to communicate with others in it, than the average non-college-educated person. You must be attending a private university run by a religious organization to have a theology requirement, otherwise everything else on that list looks pretty reasonable. Don't be afraid to broaden your knowledge.

 

[gravenewworld]

Honestly, the only course I ever took something out of was intro to economics--it encouraged me to get a minor in it. All the other crap I just forgot as soon as I was done the final, especially the language requirement. What a waste of time and money. All the requirements do is bring down your GPA. I have a 3.99 GPA in my major, yet my cumulative GPA is nowhere near that because of the stupid required courses.

 

[Moonbear]

I used to love those liberal arts courses. They were fun to take, made for a nice break from the hardcore sciences, and were incredibly easy.

 

[franznietzsche]

Why did you not take several years of a foreign language in high school? high schools out here require 2 years of either a foreign language or a performing art. I have five years in both and neither was wasted. I've actually had jobs i could not ahve had if i was not bilingual.

One thing that will always bother me is how much people in general hate learning. Even people in college. If you hate it so much, get out and stop wasting everyone else's time. I will admit i hate my chemistry course this quarter. Not because i think its worthless, i know its not, i just hate the lab for it, the lecture is reasonably interesting. But first quarter intro chem lab is not (well a few spectroscopy labs were, but mixing ionic solutions is not). But i know its important for me to know.

I cannot find words to express my frustration with your attitude. Then again, I'm the kind of person who reads literature and philosophy purely for intellectual stimulation, an idea that is probably as foreign to you as that language they make you take.

But knowing that anything i say is a waste of time, I'm just going to go, let my blood pressure drop, and do something more productive, and less painful, like chewing broken glass.

:grumpy:

 

[gravenewworld]

I did take a language in high school- Latin I, II, and III my 1st and 2nd year in high school. Instead of taking latin again in college I took spanish instead, because by the time I got to college I forgot every single thing I learned in latin. I took 2 years of spainsh and barely got C-'s some quarters because I just have a learning disability for languages. I learned nothing from those language classes except what hasta la vista, hola, and mucho frio mean, but I could have learned that by watching the Terminator or going to Taco Bell. The people that impose those requirements would honestly like to believe that taking all those courses makes you a "well rounded" person, but in reality most people just forget everything after the final. The only thing requirements have done is brought down my GPA, which I care about most ( yes I am that shallow).

I cannot find words to express my frustration with your attitude. Then again, I'm the kind of person who reads literature and philosophy purely for intellectual stimulation, an idea that is probably as foreign to you as that language they make you take.

I don't give a rat's ass about literature, film theory, or theology etc. and probably never will. I don't care what you think of me either for my attitude. I will leave the study of literature and philosophy to people who actually want to do it and find it interesting. I honestly could just take 7 courses every semester on just mathematics and chemistry for an entire 4 years and have no problem with it, I would find it much, much, much, much more interesting. I work in a lab with chemists who came from China, and over there at the University they only study what they major in. Maybe that's why they are the best chemists we have at the company?

 

[check]

I think it's a pretty good idea to have a breadth requirement. I need 2 courses outside of science from 2 different faculties. I'm taking economics right now (social sci.), which I love and I think I might take film studies (arts) next year because I hear it's fun and easy and I also need to finish up my essay course requirement. But without a breadth requirement I might not have taken economics and would not have known how much I enjoy it.

I feel bad for the engineering students though. Their program is so tightly streamed that their options for electives is very limited.

 

[gravenewworld]

I think it's a pretty good idea to have a breadth requirement. I need 2 courses outside of science from 2 different faculties. I'm taking economics right now (social sci.), which I love and I think I might take film studies (arts) next year because I hear it's fun and easy and I also need to finish up my essay course requirement. But without a breadth requirement I might not have taken economics and would not have known how much I enjoy it.

Its a little different though when the requirements are more of a burden than an actually learning experience. I wouldn't have a problem at all with only 2 courses outside of science, but when your requirements add up to over 60 credits it gets a bit rediculous.

 

[franznietzsche]

Its a little different though when the requirements are more of a burden than an actually learning experience. I wouldn't have a problem at all with only 2 courses outside of science, but when your requirements add up to over 60 credits it gets a bit rediculous.

If you're so convinced you're wasting your money, then stop.

 

[Moonbear]

Its a little different though when the requirements are more of a burden than an actually learning experience. I wouldn't have a problem at all with only 2 courses outside of science, but when your requirements add up to over 60 credits it gets a bit rediculous.

My core requirements in college were similar to that, plus I had additional honors program courses that didn't meet either my core or major requirements but were required to keep my scholarship, so you do what you have to do. If you're attending a liberal arts school, then that's what you signed up for, to get a liberal arts education, which means breadth of knowledge. Try to embrace it and appreciate that this is probably the one time in your life you'll really have time to learn something about things outside your subject area. If you dislike all of it, well, I find that a bit sad, but at least you know, and you may find there's something you enjoy outside of your major classes that you would never have discovered if you didn't take those core requirements. If those are classes you're weak in, consider it a challenge to improve. The thing is, you never know when it will come in useful, even if it's just for being able to converse at social gatherings. For me, understanding fields outside of science is very helpful when it comes to explaining my science to people in those fields. I have some understanding of where they're coming from and what they can relate to, so can put it in terms they understand. And you never know when you'll be trying to convince a philanthropist to donate money to your research area or department, and it's that conversation about ancient history that gives them reason to like you more than the other scientists who have nothing in common with them that seals the deal!

 

[russ_watters]

You're not going to want to hear this, but the single most important skill of an engineer or scientist is writing.

 

[Moonbear]

You're not going to want to hear this, but the single most important skill of an engineer or scientist is writing.

I 100% second that! And not just writing with correct spelling and grammar, but writing clear, precise, logical arguments.

 

[franznietzsche]

I 100% second that! And not just writing with correct spelling and grammar, but writing clear, precise, logical arguments.

You mean whining about how he's wasting his money doesn't count??

 

[Moonbear]

You mean whining about how he's wasting his money doesn't count??

:rofl: It doesn't seem very logical to me. The logical thing to do if one thinks they are wasting their money is to stop spending it on what they consider wasteful. But I'm accustomed to the whine. You should hear the English or political science majors complain about being required to take a science class; what do they need to know biology for?! :rofl:

 

[gravenewworld]

I definitely know writing is one of the most important skills to have. My high school pounded this into us, giving us a 25 pg. research paper due every year. Also, the science courses here have lab write ups that are extremely long sometimes. I remember last year doing a report that was ~60 pg. long. Recently, my professor made us evaluate someone else's lab write up for homework. I had no idea what the hell the kid was talking about in his lab because his writing skills were so poor. He didn't even have verbs in some of his sentences. You can still learn to be an semi-decent writer without having to take English etc. I could have learned to write by writing papers on mathematics or chemistry instead.

 

[Moonbear]

I definitely know writing is one of the most important skills to have. My high school pounded this into us, giving us a 25 pg. research paper due every year. Also, the science courses here have lab write ups that are extremely long sometimes. I remember last year doing a report that was ~60 pg. long. Recently, my professor made us evaluate someone else's lab write up for homework. I had no idea what the hell the kid was talking about in his lab because his writing skills were so poor. He didn't even have verbs in some of his sentences. You can still learn to be an semi-decent writer without having to take English etc. I could have learned to write by writing papers on mathematics or chemistry instead.

Then take scientific and technical writing as your upper level English class.

Edit: If you're writing a 60 page lab report, you might want to consider working on being more concise in your writing. There's always room to improve. Consider trying to write up not just a day's worth of lab work, but a year's worth of novel research within about 15 pages, and doing that several times a year, or 5 years' worth of work in a 300 page dissertation, or every few months writing up a grant proposal that includes 35 pages of research design (and probably 100 to 200 references). Writing a 25 page paper once a year is not the same as the amount of writing done in a scientific career. I probably spend 75% of my time at work on writing in one form or another.

 

[gravenewworld]

Wish they offered one.

 

[Integral]

Honestly, the only course I ever took something out of was intro to economics--it encouraged me to get a minor in it. All the other crap I just forgot as soon as I was done the final, especially the language requirement. What a waste of time and money. All the requirements do is bring down your GPA. I have a 3.99 GPA in my major, yet my cumulative GPA is nowhere near that because of the stupid required courses.

Perhaps you should look into a technical degree from a comunity college.

 

[gravenewworld]

Hell, if community colleges offered advanced math and chemistry classes I would go to one. Unfortunately, they don't. I'd be very surprised if you could find a community college that offers things like complex analysis or physical chemistry as course offerings. It's funny how people are hating me for telling the truth: most students are just taking required courses and studying to pass the final exam, they don't give a damn about the course material at all.

 

[BobG]

Perhaps you should look into a technical degree from a comunity college.

At least in Colorado, the relationship between community colleges and state 4-year colleges would tend to support gravenworld's idea that the colleges are more interested in the money than how well balanced its students become.

To make a college education more affordable, the state colleges are required to accept colledge credits earned at community colleges, which have lower tuition costs. The catch is that the four-year college can decide how that credit is applied. For example, you can take Calculus courses, Diff Eq, and Linear Algebra at the community college. If you transfer to the state college here in the city, all those courses count as electives. You have to retake the math courses again at the state college in order to meet your math requirement at the 4-year college (the logic of this is that the Calc class at the community class allows the use of calculators and the Calc class at the state college doesn't).

You save money on some of the preliminary courses, but then get burned in the end by having to transfer to a more expensive private college to finish your degree if you actually want those community college credits to count for something.

Quite a few people are pretty cynical of UCCS around here (to be fair, there's other state four-year colleges that do accept your community college credits for what they're intended, but that means at least a 40 mile drive to the campus - not a very doable option for those working and going to school at the same time).

In any event, every university seems to give you a pretty bad deal on transfer credits, regardless of where they came from (this makes school a lot of fun for military folks who move around a lot). They seem to take it as an affront that you gave your money to someone else besides them.

 

[Vega]

California at least gives a good deal on taking community college credits. Since the California State University system is so overcrowded, they prefer students start at the community colleges and guarantee to accept a certain number of credit hours. I had no trouble with transfering credit, even with most of my credits being from out of state.

 

[Moonbear]

In terms of accepting community college credits, I'd have to say it may have a bit to do with arrogance (a community college can't be teaching as well as an expensive private university, can it?), but my experience has been that state universities are more amenable to accepting the transfer credits. When I was in college, you could take summer classes at your local community college instead of at the university and they would usually transfer. There were some exceptions, but that had nothing to do with trying to get money, but because the classes just weren't that comparable despite having the same title. Those you could transfer in as credits to cover core requirements, but not major requirements (the idea being that they weren't adequately preparing you for the upper level classes in your major). I knew quite a few people who didn't think they'd do well in a particular core class, so would take it as a summer class in a community college. Their reasoning was that if they didn't pass, it wouldn't pull down their university GPA, at which time they could retake it at the university with some "practice" under their belts, and if they did do well, they'd transfer the credits and have one more class out of the way.

I would have to say that graveneworld is the first person I've met who hasn't liked anything outside of his major courses. Everyone has likes and dislikes and strengths and weaknesses, but usually have more than one narrow interest.

While, yes, college is meant to prepare you for a better place in the job market, it doesn't accomplish that by just training you in your major, but in a wider variety of skills that give you more flexibility to find a job when you graduate. You can't always count on which way the job market is going to sway when you graduate, so the broader your background, the more options you'll have.

I know a lot of students just take the classes to be done with them and don't appreciate why they are taking the classes. This attitude has been worsening over the years, and it drives me nuts. I'm glad to see other students here, such as Franz, who do understand the importance of these classes.

Of course, when choosing a university to apply to and attend, too many students don't really think about what that university's mission is or what the course requirements are, they just look at the name they'll have on their diploma. There are a huge range of universities out there and what their missions are and what they consider important. Even the colleges within universities can vary greatly in their missions. If you choose a liberal arts university, a degree from there means you have a well-rounded background in a range of areas outside your major. If you attend a private university run by a religious organization, you'll have theology course requirements, if you attend a school committed to diversity, they'll probably include some classes on multiculturalism.

And if all else fails, by the time you go to college, you are an adult. Part of being an adult is doing the stuff that you have to do and not whining about it. That's as much a job skill as anything else you'll learn in college. Afterall, what happens if the job market is saturated in your field when you graduate and you can't get your dream job straight out of college? Do you have other marketable skills?

 

[gravenewworld]

Of course, when choosing a university to apply to and attend, too many students don't really think about what that university's mission is or what the course requirements are, they just look at the name they'll have on their diploma.

Of course the name on the diploma is the most important thing. Do you really think the huge amount of students that are going to college actually care about the University's mission or core requirements? No. Students try to go to college with a good name because a good diploma=a better chance at making more money. That's all collge is, a commodity. Anyone who thinks the majority of students attend college for another reason is living in la la land Why should I spend 75-85% of my time doing homework in classes that aren't even in my major if I am never going to use what I "learn" in non-major classes to put food on the table? Liberal arts programs are about the art of bullsh*tting. I can't tell you the number of times I have gotten A's on papers for classes like theology, core humanities, and ethics where I have just made up complete BS at the last minute. A liberal arts program doesn't teach you to think outside of the box like it hopes to, it just teaches you to write and learn what the professor likes and wants to hear.

 

[Andromeda321]

Gravenewworld, what I'm trying to figure out is why you've spent all your time and tuition at this one particular university instead of transfering to another. Even if it's not the community college route it's not all that hard to find a university that has a good name but fewer core classes (ie after a year you're likely done with them).
You said something about caring about the name of the institution you get your diploma from. If you really care that much about graduating from your school of choice then suck it up: you knew what you were getting into when you sent in your deposit. If you hate it so much then transfer. Not all that hard really.

 

[BobG]

I think there's a minority of professions where the university you graduated from makes a difference in the long haul. Within around 5-10 years, what you've done in your career outweighs where you graduated from (just like that cartoon where the guy wakes up screaming from a nightmare in which nobody cares what his GPA in high school was).

It does make a difference when you're first starting out, since your degree is about the only asset you have.

But, I can sympathize with the 'garbage' peripheral courses. If you have to transfer to a different college later on, the theology courses, the diversity education courses, the required couse I had to take on Eastern Civilization, etc. are the first courses your new university tosses in the waste basket. (Really, the best advice to completing your degree without wasted effort is to go to the same university from start to finish).

 

[Moonbear]

I agree with BobG here. Pretty much, unless you're majoring in political science and planning to run for office in Federal government, or in business planning to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company, the name of the school doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You've been sold on a brand name that doesn't really matter in the workplace. Transfer to a school that suits your desires/needs better if you have such a problem with it.

By the way, no, 75% of the students aren't applying based on a name, only 75% of students applying to those big name schools are. I think that's why I like being at state schools better than the big name schools, the students are more fun to teach because they actually knew what they were getting into when they chose the university rather than being delusioned by promises of dollar signs.

 

[BobG]

The flip side is why the name of the university matters when you're first starting out and why students think the name on the university actually matters.

The more prestigious the university, the harder it is to get into it. With no work history, the fact that a student was able to get accepted into a prestigious university says quite a bit about the chance the graduate will wind up being the type of worker who'll rise above the rest.

It's a fairly good predictor. There's an above average chance that a person who was able to rise above the rest and able accomplish the things necessary to get into a prestigious university will also accomplish more and be more successful later on in life.

Of course, there's a small flaw in the logic as far as cause and effect. It wasn't the university that made the person more successful. It was attracting people who were more likely to be successful that made the university look more prestigious.

 

[franznietzsche]

Of course the name on the diploma is the most important thing. Do you really think the huge amount of students that are going to college actually care about the University's mission or core requirements? No. Students try to go to college with a good name because a good diploma=a better chance at making more money.

I hated people with that attitude in high school, and I hate them even more now at college. IN one class we recently read an essay on why college is not for eevryone, and certainly not for the majority of people sent to it these days. You should read it, you're exactly the kind of person it was referring to.


You're absolutely right, those classes are a waste of your time. Colleges try to make people intellectual, but some people, like you, are not capable of that, and so are wasting their time, and money.

I know a lot of students just take the classes to be done with them and don't appreciate why they are taking the classes. This attitude has been worsening over the years, and it drives me nuts. I'm glad to see other students here, such as Franz, who do understand the importance of these classes.

I recently had a discussion about this with my grandfather (he has a master's in english). I was talking about the attitude of most people who don't care what they learn, only what it gets them. Part of it is the failure of the public education system. Part of it is the cultural attitude that without a college degree you're going nowhere. And despite all the graduation speeches from high school administrators about how these people are the eladers of the future, i sure as hell don't want people like them leading anything. The piss-pooreducation system of this country is producing a society of technocrats--who love MTV, and the OC--and annoy me to no end.

I'm unique to say the least--Iactually like to learn. I like to have an interesting conversation. I like intellectualism. But most people don't. There is a strong strain of anti-intellectualism in this country--basically the many stupid don't trust the few intelligent--to put it coarsely. And gravenewworld seems very steeped in that. God forbid he should be a broadly learned person--that might make him not fit in anymore.

 

[gravenewworld]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gravenewworld
Of course the name on the diploma is the most important thing. Do you really think the huge amount of students that are going to college actually care about the University's mission or core requirements? No. Students try to go to college with a good name because a good diploma=a better chance at making more money.


I hated people with that attitude in high school, and I hate them even more now at college. IN one class we recently read an essay on why college is not for eevryone, and certainly not for the majority of people sent to it these days. You should read it, you're exactly the kind of person it was referring to.


You're absolutely right, those classes are a waste of your time. Colleges try to make people intellectual, but some people, like you, are not capable of that, and so are wasting their time, and money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbear
I know a lot of students just take the classes to be done with them and don't appreciate why they are taking the classes. This attitude has been worsening over the years, and it drives me nuts. I'm glad to see other students here, such as Franz, who do understand the importance of these classes.


I recently had a discussion about this with my grandfather (he has a master's in english). I was talking about the attitude of most people who don't care what they learn, only what it gets them. Part of it is the failure of the public education system. Part of it is the cultural attitude that without a college degree you're going nowhere. And despite all the graduation speeches from high school administrators about how these people are the eladers of the future, i sure as hell don't want people like them leading anything. The piss-pooreducation system of this country is producing a society of technocrats--who love MTV, and the OC--and annoy me to no end.

I'm unique to say the least--Iactually like to learn. I like to have an interesting conversation. I like intellectualism. But most people don't. There is a strong strain of anti-intellectualism in this country--basically the many stupid don't trust the few intelligent--to put it coarsely. And gravenewworld seems very steeped in that. God forbid he should be a broadly learned person--that might make him not fit in anymore.

Oh please, spare me the ideological BS. Like I said before, a liberal arts program is not good at making you an intellectual, but a good BSer--like you seem to be. You said earlier before that you are taking an intro to Chem course. Honestly, being a chemistry major myself, learning spectroscopy is a waste of time if you are never going to be a practicing chemist in the future. Please tell me how learning to interpret NMR and IR data etc. is going to help you put food on the table in the future unless you are a chemist. That is the problem with you librals and your liberal education, it is based on ideological fantasy, not reality.

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

I agree that being a broadly learned person is important; however, the required credits issue can be a bit complicated. I am going to be forced into a basic Arts class, which will be a complete breeze. I don't mind learning about business, music, or art, but I don't want to memorize and not engage the material. The lack of choice in my school causes me to be unchallenged and I'm completely frustrated. Another unfortanate occurance is the instance of having to choose between two undesired courses, due to lack of teachers. I'm taking a Political Science course, and because of the public school system the class never gets to discuss anything interesting. I've spent hours writing notes on the basic principals of democracy, and have spent little time debating political issues with the class, it seems that it's a crime for someone to get offended.

In theory it's easy to criticize students for not enjoying a variety of subjects, but schools are more complicated than people think. Students often base course choices on a who a teacher is rather than the material. Many students want to go take classes with material they enjoy. Students cannot be entirely blamed for not being broadly learned, some of the blame falls on the school systems.

 

[franznietzsche]

Oh please, spare me the ideological BS. Like I said before, a liberal arts program is not good at making you an intellectual, but a good BSer--like you seem to be. You said earlier before that you are taking an intro to Chem course. Honestly, being a chemistry major myself, learning spectroscopy is a waste of time if you are never going to be a practicing chemist in the future. Please tell me how learning to interpret NMR and IR data etc. is going to help you put food on the table in the future unless you are a chemist. That is the problem with you librals and your liberal education, it is based on ideological fantasy, not reality.

If you ever call me a liberal again, i will hunt you down. I'm about as liberal as Kissinger, and very insulted right now. In person, i would have just hit you.

That said I'm a physics major. Spectroscopy may very well prove useful to me. But unlike you I'm not obsessed with money i don't need. I'm doing it because i enjoy it. Thats no fantasy, that's reality.

 

[gravenewworld]

It wasn't personal until you made it be in your previous post.

 

[Andromeda321]

Oh please, spare me the ideological BS. Like I said before, a liberal arts program is not good at making you an intellectual, but a good BSer--like you seem to be. You said earlier before that you are taking an intro to Chem course. Honestly, being a chemistry major myself, learning spectroscopy is a waste of time if you are never going to be a practicing chemist in the future. Please tell me how learning to interpret NMR and IR data etc. is going to help you put food on the table in the future unless you are a chemist. That is the problem with you librals and your liberal education, it is based on ideological fantasy, not reality.

I am currently an astro/physics major with a history minor who plays in the university's orchestra. Do you see a lot of money coming from that? You're right and I don't see much money coming out of it either. But I love each subject dearly and could not imagine not persuing one or the other. I like studying them because I love to learn, pure and simple. I write my papers and practice my scales because it makes me happy.
I never liked high school because it was filled with kids planning on going to Ivies part because of the money they thought they'd receive at the other end and part because they were told it was the best thing for them to do. If you asked one of these kids what they wanted to study and you would get a vague "premed" or "buisness;" if you instead asked what their favorite subject was their eyes would light up thinking about computer programming or analyzing sonnets. If you asked them what they were going to do after they got their degree you would get a bewildered look: they had no idea. They had no dreams beyond what they had been told was the most successful thing to do and I pity them for it. Money helps you be happy easier but if you have nothing that makes you happy what good is it for?
So now I'm going to go be a good Renissance Woman and begin writing a paper on Babylonian godesses. I'm not particularly excited about that this very moment and I don't see it translating into dollar signs down the road but at the end I'll find a deep joy in exploring the relationship between Ishtar and Ianna. And that's not something a bad stock market could ever take away from me!

 

[Smurf]

One thing that will always bother me is how much people in general hate learning. Even people in college. If you hate it so much, get out and stop wasting everyone else's time. I will admit i hate my chemistry course this quarter. Not because i think its worthless, i know its not, i just hate the lab for it, the lecture is reasonably interesting. But first quarter intro chem lab is not (well a few spectroscopy labs were, but mixing ionic solutions is not). But i know its important for me to know.

I cannot find words to express my frustration with your attitude. Then again, I'm the kind of person who reads literature and philosophy purely for intellectual stimulation, an idea that is probably as foreign to you as that language they make you take.

Franz if only you were a little less conservative we could get along famously, these were my exact thoughts when I read that.