Why do people hate the Jews?

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  • Thread starter schwarzchildradius
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  • #1
can anybody tell me?

Before WW2, Hitler said that the result of a war would be the elimination of Jews from 'Europa' meaning Europe. Was Hitler using the Jews as hostages?

Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive from in general? It seems as though the Jews have a lot of history to avenge, given their ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?
 

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  • #2
Stranger
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I want to ask why do people hate muslims? muslims are being harassed in almost every corner of the world...kashmir..indonesia...kosovo...chechenya...gujarat...
 
  • #3
russ_watters
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Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive from in general? It seems as though the Jews have a lot of history to avenge, given their ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?
I don't know where it comes from but they certainly have a long history of oppression dating back to biblical times. Its probably simply because they are different.
I want to ask why do people hate muslims? muslims are being harassed in almost every corner of the world...kashmir..indonesia...kosovo...chechenya...gujarat...
In kashmir and chechenya, religion has nothing to do with it. Those are good, old fasthioned border disputes/civil wars. I tend to think the problem in most places with muslims and their religion is with the muslims themselves being intolerant.

People tend to be emotional about their religions. So when two groups of people with different religions come together they start killing each other. Not all the time, but often.
 
  • #4
I want to ask why do people hate muslims? muslims are being harassed in almost every corner of the world...kashmir..indonesia...kosovo...chechenya...gujarat...


First both of you should be mroe specific and acurate. I want to point out that not everyone hates them and MANY people don't. The ones that don't just don't have a way to show it. The jerks that do hate them go around killing people and such. The many that don't hate them can't go around doing things that show they like them can they? And besides hate is such a strong word be careful when you use it. Also much of the descrimination against muslims is caused by September 11, the world trade center attacks, along with other terrorist attacks plus the whole bin laden/ sadam problems have not helped. I am sure it will pass in time and I hope that time is soon.




Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive from in general? It seems as though the Jews have a lot of history to avenge, given their ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?


Where it derives from? Who knows, I dont. We may never find out but they have suffered all the way back to ancient egypt until moses led them to freedom. Since Egypt they had to deal with germany and russia and many other countries disliking them. As one of my teachers pointed out (and he has a Jewish wife and when they have kids they are raising them to be jewish) Up until WW2 they had something of a nomadic nation. They were not citizens of germany (well not many) they lived there and they were seperate. One of hitlers thoughts were "who has money after world war one?" And him already strongly disliking jewish people despite the fact that he was half jewish, accused them. So began the steep downfall of world war two and the Holocaust. Anyways there are many forms of jewdism (spelling...?) and as I gathered from what my teacher explained was they considered themselves separate and united, not part of any nation. So that caused dislike in the years before world war 2 and also gave hitler someone to blame and gather his people against. When the Jewish people went to Israel and the United states they got their own nation (in israel) and became part of one in the U.S. Why they don't take revenge? Several reasons. The most important is probably because jewish people don't seem to want to fight. They don't want wars they want peace. Also remember this isn't the same time as when their ancient laws were written. They couldn't fight inside the United States especiially because Seperation of Church and State would intervene, I believe. Perhaps not but I think that would prevent something like that from happening.


I hope I have helped.
 
  • #5
I wonder if somewhere, back in the mists of history, the Jews didn't earn the beginnings of the hatred. Remember, the Bible describes Jewish tribes committing genocide...
 
  • #6
^^^ In ancient history, most groups commited genocide...

Well, anti-Semitism really traces its roots back to early Christianity. "The Jews killed Jesus" and all that; there was a great deal of resentment among the Christian community that the Jewish community -- whose religion theirs was based on -- stuck to their own traditions and considered Christiantity a heresy. Kind of embarrassing for the Christians. This was not helped by the fact that the original Jewish Christian community was largely wiped out when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 76 CE.

In post-Roman Europe, the Jewish communities continued to keep to their own traditions and exist in tight-knit communities; this fed the xenophobia of European Christians who already considered them damned as unrepentant infidels.

The situation was worsened by monetary concerns; the Church, in her infinite wisdom, had prohibited charging interest on loans ('usury.') Jews, not being Christians, were exempt from this, and so were effectively given a monopoly on banking. This made (some of) them quite wealthy, and so Christian envy also fed anti-Semitism. Add to this the fact that creditors are never the most popular of people...

If you read 18th-century or earlier European literature the anti-Semitism evident is just unbelievably disgusting. Jews are called "blood-sucking userers," portrayed as greedy, heartless, deceitful, cowardly, and generally reviled.

In contrast, anti-Semitism was basically nonexistant in the Islamic world until quite recently, the last century or so. It's basically arose because Israel is viewed as a symbol of Western imperialism and subjugation. There, one never hears 'Jews' smeared, but rather 'Zionists' -- Zionism being the name of the early 20th-century movement to create a Jewish state.
 
  • #7
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !

damgo's discription is a pretty good one.
I'd like to add that after many Jews were
dispersed around middle-eastern and
Europian territories phousands of years ago,
there were Jewish minorities all across the
"known" world and no Jewish state for them
to go to, so it is natural for people
to blaim and hurt the small and defenceless
if they can, which is what kept happenning
here and there throughout history.
Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
Where does the anti-semetic sentiment derive
from in general? It seems as though the Jews
have a lot of history to avenge, given their
ancient Code of Laws. Why don't they take
revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?
Because revenge is ussualy not their way.
Originally posted by Stranger
I want to ask why do people hate muslims?
Because revenge ussualy is their way.

*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.

]Live long and prosper.
 
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  • #8
FZ+
1,599
3
Erm... I didn't see what Zero posted is racist... Can you point out why please...?


Why don't they take revenge on the peoples who have wronged them?
---
Because revenge is ussualy not their way.
Well, actually they did. Notice the work of the Israeli intelligence forces in tracking down ex-nazis. Also, some of the current actions of the Israeli authority can be called revenge attacks. But these issues have a political, not a racial root. The Jews were usually too scattered for an unified action, and when they were unified, they were usually too weak or lacked political motivation to pursue aggressive violence in this way. I don't think there is any way to categorise willingness for peace with religion, or race.

I want to ask why do people hate muslims?
---
Because revenge ussualy is their way.

This is nonsense. The people who hate muslims do not hate them because they were muslims, but for a variety of other issues eg. stereotyped connection with terrorism, being an ethnic minority, lack of forgiveness for other crimes etc. There is nothing about a muslim that affects a desire for vengence in any way. There is equal support for retribution in the scriptures of all three major religions. I know plenty of muslims to whom revenge is NOT a way.


In the end, it all boils down to a few factors together.

1. Scapegoatism. The jews are an easy target, and segregated from the rest of the community. It is easy to construct allegations against them.
2. Religious ignorance, particularly people who feel jews murdered Jesus etc etc.
3. Economic envy.
4. Revenge attacks. This is really only just becoming a factor.

I don't think Hitler is really to blame. Hitler I see as an effect, not an essential cause. Anti-semistism existed before he did. Indeed, in the early 20th century, much of the USA was antisemitic. Henry Ford, I seem to remember, had such views.
 
  • #9
drag
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Greetings !
*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.


Also FZ+, the problem is that many Muslim nations
in modern times are passing through partially the
same stages as Christianity in the middle-ages and
Jewdaism phousands of years ago - fanatic belief and
rule through and by religion. The opinions they
express are their majority opinions in those
countries today. I saw you mention the word
minorities and I understand that you meant
those living in non-muslim countries - well, that's
a different story - their majority views are
ussualy less radical, but being from those
countries they are still biased and many listen
to the religeuos leaders back in their countries.

*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.


Live long and prosper.
 
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  • #10
plus
178
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The Jews traditionally have been userers, making very easy money out of soft targets in countries where money lending amongst the native population was frowned upon.

Getting very rich whilst taking from the vulnerable, and contributing seemingly nothing to the society was one of the things which upset people. See 'Merchant of Venice' by Shakespeare.
 
  • #11
FZ+
1,599
3
Change that to traditionally seemed to have been more of userers than everybody else.
 
  • #12
Andy
69
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I think the jews and the muslims are just unlucky.
 
  • #13
GlamGein
48
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Drag:
I think you are way out of line. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Its not true nor fair to say that Muslims are fanatical. I think you will find Muslims far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than you think. In the U.S. we are ignorant of Islam, but in Islamic countries, Christianity and Judaism have been around for Millennia. You will find that there is a sort of "Abrahamic Brotherhood", ie, 'If you are not a Muslim, at least you are a Jew or a Christian' type of thing, since they are all based on Abraham, and "upon" on another, not to mention that they all have similar values.

Zero: I don't know where this "racist" crap came from, but don't let it stop you from speaking your mind. Conservatives often use the tactics of humiliation, name-calling, etc., in order to control people who have different ideas. I don't believe you are one to be controlled in such a manner...
 
  • #14
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !
Originally posted by GlamGein
Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Its not
true nor fair to say that Muslims are
fanatical. I think you will find Muslims far
more tolerant of Christians and Jews than
you think.
They WERE tolerant of Christians and Jews as well
as many other religions for many centuries.
They co-existed with the Jews in peace until
less than a hundred years ago (unlike
Christians) until Jewish settlers began to
gather in Palestine and they sided Nazi
Germany in WW2 and they had no specific trouble
with all Christians before the Crusades.
But, today reality is different - like I said,
today they are passing through the stage of
Christians in the middle ages and Jews 3.5
phousand years ago.

Oh and... btw, I truly hope for your sake you
won't get the chance to test your idea - go
about a Muslim country and say you're an American
or a Jew for example - they'll linch you right on
the streets.
Originally posted by GlamGein
...since they are all based on Abraham, and "upon"
one another, not to mention that they all have
similar values.
That was the case (the "brotherhood" part) a phousand
years ago. The values of these religions are different
and the fact that you claim them to be the same
is a clear indication of your ignorance.
(BTW, the enitial values contained in these
religions do not have that much to do with the way
they are practiced today.)
*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.
Live long and prosper.
 
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  • #15
russ_watters
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Originally posted by GlamGein
Drag:
I think you are way out of line. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Its not true nor fair to say that Muslims are fanatical. I think you will find Muslims far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than you think.
The people who are vocal are the fanatics. They are the dominant sect of islam. It is as simple as that. It doesn't MATTER if there is a silent majority that are moral - they are silent (which by the way is IMmoral, but that's another arguement).

I tend to try to avoid judging religions themselves (as opposed to the people who follow the religions) but I have recently begun to read the Koran. It is astonishing but at the same time unsurprising. It fits very well with the popular opinions of islam: I'm about halfway through and from what I have read so far, the Koran is incoherent, rambling, violent, threatening, misogynistic, and hateful. From that it is tough to avoid the conclusion that the entire religion is bad.

Drag, your theory that Islam is passing through the stage of evolution that Christianity was in in the Middle Ages is intriguing. I'll have to give that one some thought.

And if you do not consider Zero's message to be a cloack for a clear racist remark
I also interpreted it as thinly veiled racism. What he appeared to be saying is that the past 4000 years of persecution of the Jews is justified based on something they did wrong (that he didn't even know) more than 4000 years ago. But if he would like to clarify...
 
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  • #16
rutwig
44
1
Originally posted by plus
The Jews traditionally have been userers, making very easy money out of soft targets in countries where money lending amongst the native population was frowned upon. Getting very rich whilst taking from the vulnerable, and contributing seemingly nothing to the society was one of the things which upset people. See 'Merchant of Venice' by Shakespeare.

I agree with Damgo in the fact that some of the anti-semitism has been originated from the old question that the priests of Sanedrin condemned Jesus, and therefore jews were interpreted as the murderers of Christ. In Western (and orthodox) reigions this has been the main argument against them. Now, to the quote above: usurers used to be jews, not any jew was an usurer. This implication has been another (easy) argument to attack them. Now, the "contribution to society" is nonsense as reason against jews, since 99% of society (independently of their religion) do nothing for the others. Indeed, in any jewish group the community concept is much stronger than in christian societies.
 
  • #17
Originally posted by Zero
I wonder if somewhere, back in the mists of history, the Jews didn't earn the beginnings of the hatred. Remember, the Bible describes Jewish tribes committing genocide...

Sorry, kids...just trying to put things in historical perspective. The Bible outlines how the Jewish peoples of that time eradicated entire tribes of people. Such a warlike group would get a bad reputation, don't you think? No, I don't think the crimes of the past should be paid for by people living in the present day, but I believe that the past could certainly influence the present. To pretend otherwise is to blind yourself to a possible deeper understanding of truth.
 
  • #18
Nicool
Also much of the descrimination against muslims is caused by September 11, the world trade center attacks, along with other terrorist attacks plus the whole bin laden/ sadam problems have not helped. I am sure it will pass in time and I hope that time is soon.
Well ... Ben Laden might be dead at the moment, and saddam too ... But the problem stands still .

Zero
I wonder if somewhere, back in the mists of history, the Jews didn't earn the beginnings of the hatred. Remember, the Bible describes Jewish tribes committing genocide...
About Jews , I'll talk about the first Israelies before the come of Jusus , they were hated becuase they killed messengers sent by God .
But those who are considered Jews at that time, were not hated, they were liked becuase they were doing what God Ordered them to do, but those who didn't believe , were the majority of the community , they changed the religion in order to suit them , and become Jews in a CHANGED way .

Drag
Because revenge ussualy is their way.
NOT TRUE !
Revenge is Prohibited In Islam ! Not any kind of it .
So How come you impute Islam of revenge ?

FZ
This is nonsense. The people who hate muslims do not hate them because they were muslims, but for a variety of other issues eg. 1- stereotyped connection with terrorism, 2- being an ethnic minority, 3- lack of forgiveness for other crimes etc. There is nothing about a muslim that affects a desire for vengence in any way. There is equal support for retribution in the scriptures of all three major religions. I know plenty of muslims to whom revenge is NOT a way.
I Want to point out to the words in red.
1- Islam is not connected with terrorism , it's that some terrorists are connecting themselves to islam to make the poeple think that Islam is a bad religion.
2- Explain .
3- Well , it depends where you want to live, do you want this life or the other life ?
If you're looking for the other life, then you have to know that Islam gives the BEST way for poeple to get forgiveness for their faults in this life, whatever they are, if he/she did what Islam asked for.
For this life , I think that Islam's main reason for making those sanctions is to prevent them from being spread over. For example : Stealing and raping is a very common thing in USA , becuase A stealer can steal money and use it , then go to jail and stay in there for about 2 years , and then come out again , clean and allowed to do this again. But In KSA( Kingdom of Saudi Arabia ) , The number of poeple who steals in a year is less then 30.

Drag
Also FZ+, the problem is that many Muslim nations
in modern times are passing through partially the
same stages as Christianity in the middle-ages and
Jewdaism phousands of years ago - fanatic belief and
rule through and by religion. The opinions they
express are their majority opinions in those
countries today. I saw you mention the word
minorities and I understand that you meant
those living in non-muslim countries - well, that's
a different story - their majority views are
ussualy less radical, but being from those
countries they are still biased and many listen
to the religeuos leaders back in their countries.
You're are totally far away from knowing what Islam is.
That's all I can tell you.
Islam is Didfferent of what you know, Islam means Peace. Not fanaticism !

GlamGein
I think you are way out of line. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Its not true nor fair to say that Muslims are fanatical. I think you will find Muslims far more tolerant of Christians and Jews than you think. In the U.S. we are ignorant of Islam, but in Islamic countries, Christianity and Judaism have been around for Millennia. You will find that there is a sort of "Abrahamic Brotherhood", ie, 'If you are not a Muslim, at least you are a Jew or a Christian' type of thing, since they are all based on Abraham, and "upon" on another, not to mention that they all have similar values.
True, In Jordan - which is an Islamic country - there are Christians, Jews and Non-believers, they are living totally normal , and for knowledge , I've studied in a Christain Roman School for 7 years , and nothing was starange , There's no deffirance between Christain and a Muslim , and now , I Study in somehow Islamic School , and this school contains some chirstian students , and they are treated like us ( sometimes I feel they are treated better , becuase they can have holidays in Islamic and Chirstain occiasions , While we have holidays in our occasions only .. LoL ) , totally no deffirance ...

Drag
They WERE tolerant of Christians and Jews as well
as many other religions for many centuries.
They co-existed with the Jews in peace until
less than a hundred years ago (unlike
Christians) until Jewish settlers began to
gather in Palestine and they sided Nazi
Germany in WW2 and they had no specific trouble
with all Christians before the Crusades.
But, today reality is different - like I said,
today they are passing through the stage of
Christians in the middle ages and Jews 3.5
phousand years ago.

Oh and... btw, I truly hope for your sake you
won't get the chance to test your idea - go
about a Muslim country and say you're an American
or a Jew for example - they'll linch you right on
the streets.
Were US poeple hating north Korea before 1900 ? or did they hate them after starting their Nuclear plans ( which threatens the US security ) ?
When You're attacked or about to be attacked then you have the right to hate/fight the poeple who does , that's what is happening in Palestine , Unfortunately , terrorists who neer been connected to Islam before , are doing some bad actions , to make the poeple think that Islam is bad , And I Think I made this point clear before.
For the second paragraph , I Think You don't know what you're talking about , In Islamic countries , there are lots of Jews , for example , take The Yemen , Jews percentage of the poeple in there is the second after Islam , and for Americans , I Think you know Egypt Pyramids , ever wondered how many Americans visit them yearly ? or ever imagined how many workers in the Islamic countries ? And you know that there are American Forces ( and some other countries Forces ) Are in Afghanistan , which is also an Islamic country .
You're Talking nonsense !

Russ
the Koran is incoherent, rambling, violent, threatening, misogynistic, and hateful.
Duhh! You mean that 2.1 bellion Muslims - who say that Quran Is totally perfect - are wrong , and you're the correct one ?

------------------------
I Don't hate Jews , some of them are good ... But I hate Israelies , they are violent and they are killing Palestinians !
 
  • #19
OK, I would like point out here that I am a dual-American/Iranian citizen; I lived in Iran -- as Islamic a state as they come -- for a few years when I was young with both my parents, and all of my father's family still lives there (except him.) So I think I can speak with a fair bit of authority on the subject, esp re:Americans. (you of course are free to disagree :wink: )

drag, I have to say I think you are totally wrong in your conception of Moslems. I would like to know why you think that. Here is what I can say:
  • First, the standard stereotypes of Moslems are woefully wrong -- many Americans think of the Middle East, and Arab countries. NO. The largest Moslem country is Indonesia; Pakistan and India each have larger Moslem populations than any Middle Eastern country.
  • Second, in Iran at least, there isn't much public sentiment against Jews or Christians -- like Glamgein said, they are also considered "People of the Book." There have always been big Jewish and Christian populations there, and even under the Islamic theocracy now they are pretty much left alone -- there are a bunch of synagogues and churches in Tehran. Trying to convert people will get you in trouble with the govt, you have to put up with occasional "why don't you accept Islam?" from the really religious types, and of course you have to follow Islamic law, but it's not like people have a problem with you just for not being Moslem.
  • Another example -- in Iraq people tell me things are similar. Even Saddam's little genocidal crusades were against ethnic or political groups, like the Kurds or Marsh Arabs, that he had problems with, not religions. His prime minister or whatever -- Tariq Aziz -- was Christian.
  • Same thing with being American in Iran, you will not get "lynched." Ha. People will sometimes feel the need to tell you what they think of American policies -- there are very few Iranians who don't know someone who got killed in the Iran-Iraq war that Saddam started, and they remember which side the USA took on that one -- and if you go around saying "the USA is in the light" :smile: you will piss a lot of people off and get yelled at, but there isn't much personal animosity. Actually there is a sort of admiring fascination with America and Americans, at the same time there is resentment against the US government and its actions.
  • Religion has rather little to do with how vengeful or violent a people are. Rwanda is Christian, Iraq is Islamic, Cambodia is Buddhist, yet all have had terrible genocides recently. Trying to blame a particular 'people' or worse, a religion, for this sort of thing is, frankly, incredibly ignorant. No religion supports such thing, and there are plenty of hypocrits and unscrupulous people to do that sort of thing everywhere.
 
  • #20
Oh, and I find it illuminating that negative comments about Islam is ok, but negative comments towards Judaism are not...

And, I wonder, in a modern world where the actions of a few are known to color our perception of entire groups of people, how much greater the effects would have been thousands of years ago. And, if you'll recall, the Bible describes Jewish tribes killing every man, woman and child in a town, with pride and admiration. Would that not make everyone else dislike Jewish tribes in general? I mean, what do you say in reply to the OT statement of 'happy is he who dashes the children against the rocks'?
 
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  • #21
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zargawee
Russ

Duhh! You mean that 2.1 bellion Muslims - who say that Quran Is totally perfect - are wrong , and you're the correct one ?
Well literacy rates make that number dubious, Zargawee. Reading the Koran puts my knowledge of the source of Islam above about half of all muslims. I can certainly post some quotes to back up my opinion.
I Don't hate Jews , some of them are good ... But I hate Israelies , they are violent and they are killing Palestinians !
And what of the arabs that are killing Israelis?
 
  • #22
And what of the arabs that are killing Israelis?
Both Sides ( Israeli and Plaestinain ) have the right to live ... but there's an agreement between the two sides , declares that Palestinians should give land for peace , and get their own country , but since Palestinians are sacrificing land for peace , then the problem is with the Israeli side , which are not giving peace for them.
For me , I mustn't kill Israelies , because they don't hurt my poeple , and becuase we arabs are an honest poeple , we should keep our agreements we sign , I respect the agreement signed between Jordan and Israel in 1996.
I jusr hate them for their actions towards my brothers in arab nationality.
 
  • #23
C0mmie
64
0
Originally posted by Zargawee
then the problem is with the Israeli side , which are not giving peace for them.

In the last few months, Israel has pulled out of Palestenian territory several times, only to get hit by several waves of suicide bombings. In my opinion, the same will happen when a Palestenian state is created: they will try to attack Israeli civillians again. Who is it that's not giving peace a chance?

Both Sides ( Israeli and Plaestinain ) have the right to live
I fully agree. But for peace to last the Palestenians have to do something to stop Hamas and Hizbulla(sp?), whose only goal is the destruction of Israel. So far, the Palestenian leadership has been doing nothing to stop these terrorist organizations, and in fact Arafat is supporting them. Israel has no choice but to defend itself.

I don't wish to turn this thread into another pointless debate over the Israely/Palestenian issue, I'm just defending my point of view.
As a sidenote, I am very opetmistic about the creation of a Paletenian state. If the new leadership is successful, we may see and and to the violence.

Also, Zero:
And, if you'll recall, the Bible describes Jewish tribes killing every man, woman and child in a town, with pride and admiration.
Since when did the Bible become a credible source in a political debate?
 
  • #24
GlamGein
48
0
Unfortunately, I don't believe there will ever be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians unless Israel makes some sacrifices, and returns a significant portion of land to the Palestinians. The peace treaties so far have been very lame, giving the Palestinians crappy land that doesn't even join together. The Palestinians are desperate, their weapons of choice are friggin rocks. Why are they seen as the bad guys, when they were the ones who had their land stolen 60 years ago?
Colonialism and nation building have done wonders for political and social unrest.
 
  • #25
Originally posted by C0mmie

Also, Zero:
Since when did the Bible become a credible source in a political debate?

Ask the millions who have killed and died for 'holy' books, ok?
 
  • #26
Obviously the spite for the Jews is older than Christianity. If Israel believes in democracy, why can't she live with palestine under one democratic government?
 
  • #27
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !
Originally posted by Zargawee
but there's an agreement between the two sides,
declares that Palestinians should give land
for peace
You got it slightly backwards...:wink:
*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.
Originally posted by GlamGein
Why are they seen as the bad guys, when
they were the ones who had their land
stolen 60 years ago?
56 years ago a resolution was passed in the
UN that proclaimed two independent states with
a large area for the arab state and a small
area for the Jewish state. It was passed
barely due to very strong opposition of the
arab lobby and their allies. The US supported
the resolution and it only passed because
somehow the USSR was convinced of not forcing
a veto in disagreement. Immidiately after the
resolution was passed in the UN the arab
countries declared that they do not recognize
it and the Jewish state and more than five
individual armies from arab countries in the
region attacked the newly proclaimed state of
Israel greatly outnumbering the Israeli forces.
The arabs were beaten and Israel captured
significant territories. Since most of the arabs
fled those territories and they also contained
Jewish population they became parts of Israel.
Originally posted by Zargawee
Revenge is Prohibited In Islam ! Not any kind
of it . So How come you impute Islam of revenge ?
Religions like Buddhism and Christianity totally
denounce violence (although Christians apparently
forgot that part about a phousand years ago).
Religions like Islam and Judaism do not fully
denounce violence. The Jews however did not
coexist as unified people for phousands of years
and so their application of their religious life
became a peaceful one.
As for what you actually said - apparently you
never read the Koran, have you ? :wink:
Let me help - it's online, very easy to find, just
type in Koran in google. Then do a search on the
word "fight", you'll find plenty of stuff that
to me clearly means revenge and intentional violence.
The point is - how do you interpret this and
why should you emphasise this ? Below is
a short historical discription of why
these lines are read more tentativly by many
Muslims today than the lines about peace.

Live long and prosper.
 
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  • #28
drag
Science Advisor
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Greetings !

Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
Obviously the spite of the Jews is older
than Christianity. If Israel believes in
democracy, why can't she live with palestine
under one democratic government?
Because niether side wants to.
And, what's democracy got to do with it ?
Why would one country want to merge with another,
aspecially since both sides dislike each other ?

The problem is that the palestinian leadership
is mostly made of ex-terrorists. These palestinian
activists fought for decades and they believe they
should get the whole country or nothing (otherwise
they would've had at least a decade old state by now).

Encouraged and supported by other arab countries
they introduced this hate to many of their people
through their once only organized institution - Islam.
Now that they have a central rule they teach their
school children that they must hate and kill Israelis,
Americans and all non-muslims and flood them
with constant propoganda.

The main growth of arab nationalism and the naturally
connected to it faith of Islam began almost a century
ago. Trying to free themselves from any foreign
colonial forces and rules like mainly the British and
also the French, the newly formed arab countries
supported Hitler in WW2. Only they miscalculated
and Hitler was defeated. Through Hitler they first
came to hate the Jews with whom they co-existed in
peace since Islam was first born in the beginning
of the 8th century.

After WW2 the amount of Jews in palestine grew
steeply as many of the survivors of the Holocoust
fled from the continent. Now the arabs hated them
even more because it seemed like it came closer
to a state.

In the several decades that followed the many
relativly enlightened arab countries that showed
early signs of democracy were transformed by the
USSR. As a communist state and a superpower that
controlled most of Europe and much of Asia the
USSR had only one real opposition force - the US.

The US and the USSR fought each other "behind the
scenes" in almost every country in the world.
Seeing the Arab countries right "next door"
to it and knowing they are a very important
energy source for the "west" the USSR knew it
had to have much influence there and the new
democratic and semi-democratic rules were a
severe problem.

Like in so many countries around the world where
these two powers clashed the USSR knew the way
to control was through encouragement and
support of their favorite side. The "wind
in the sails" of arab nationalism was weaker
now and the USSR came up with a much "better"
solution - support the fanatics of the main
religion in these countries and many other around
the world.

Although communism is the lack of any religion,
they didn't care much about that part (the US
also supported Islamic extrimists in some
places where they thought it may be usefull).
Due to the undemocratic nature of the USSR
they were able to provide wide support in
all areas, unlike the US which had to
rely on public support or covert ops.
Sometimes they directly interfered using
their own forces.

The new Islamic fundumentalism spread like
fire through many countries. The local
governments were overthrown. Some
managed to escape that fate, but since
the pressure was great - the countries
that managed to do this were ruled by
the more powerful non-democratic leaders
and they too had to accept the USSR's influence
(aspecially since it meant a lot of money,
weapons and resources for them)and couldn't
totally escape Islamic fundumentalism.

(Like the "peaceful" Egypt you mentioned
Zurgawee, which still often has multi-million
Islamic extremists' demonstarations on the streets.
Today they are mostly peaceful and few violent
actions take place, perhaps, it is because in
the fairly recent past they were disperesed by
live fire from tank columns right on the streets
of Cairo and because Egypt did accept the USSR's
influence.)

Like in many other cases with other religions
throughout history the Islamic fundumentalists
made an emphasis on the violent parts of their
beliefs and forgot the more peaceful sides
of it. (Which was not very difficult because
Islam like Jewdaism is originally a religion
that does support some forms of violence in
some cases, and more than that - because
since the fall of the Roman Empire and
except a relativly short period of control
by the Mongols who respected other religions,
the arab tribes and kingdoms were strongly
independent and it was still part of their "spirit".
The legacy from the Crusades also "helped".)

As the arab countries were transformed their
attitude towards the "west" and Israel in
particular - as a state they already hated
and was right on the "step door" of many of
these countries became even worse. With Soviey
weapons and technology they could attack
Israel and each time they did they were
beaten and naturally very angry about it.
The "west" and the US became the enemy as the
USSR wanted. The US support for Israel made
things even worse.

Today, even though the USSR is gone, the fire
they egnited half a century ago is still here
(and now it hurts the Russians too). The problem
is not Islam, the problem is the interpretation of
Islam by Islamic fundumentalists which, having
controlled so many arab countries for 2-3
generations, they spread and taught a great
many people.

Now, for people who lived throughout their
lives in democratic countries it all may seem
very strange. But, people are not that smart
and not that independent and not that capable
as one might think by constantly seeing the power
of an individual in a democratic society.
(It took humanity phousands of years and countless
mistakes and bloody conflicts to achieve this.)
When, since you are born, you are told something
you will believe it. When you are only introduced
one way of life by everyone who surrounds you -
you'll ussualy live the same way. When your
an intellectual that is no escape - before
WW2 racism and anti-semitism were rampant in almost
every educational institution in Europe and many
"scientific" work & writings were writtem to justify
it. (The possible new Palestinian prime minister -
Abu-Mazen is a university graduate and one
of the works that allowed him to graduate was
a "scientific" denial of the Holocoust).

One of the clear signs of superficial judgement
is believing slogans like "the majority can't
be extreme", which is rampant when the absense
of true knowledge is present. Another relevant
slogan for this case is the "middle ground" one.
Middle ground is as often as not - not the solution.
If the Iraqi info minister says there are no tanks
on the streets of Baghdad when he himself can
see them - there is no middle ground. If the
Palestinians shout to a camera they were butchered
(knowing full well how such pictures can have
great impact on international news chanells) and
the Israelis say they killed a terrorist through
a direct hit by a missile, the truth is not
in between, aspecialy since the Israelis ussualy
do admit their mistakes if and when they happen
(and fighting with terrorism is a risky business
because there are always civilians in the way and
terrorists, by definition, are always hiding
behind and amongst them).

So, boys and gals, what I sincerely ask you to do
(since this is an educational forum) is not just
view this as a short history lesson but also view
this as a lesson for those of you who forge their
opinions on subjects based upon superficial
views of some random pieces of information and
the evening news. Like many of you wouldn't
argue here about the validity of Special
Relativity despite the fact that when you learn
it - it seems counter-intuative, I ask you not
to argue about political issues that you have
a poor understanding of their background, here.

I realize that often the "hot" issues are something
you find it hard not to respond to. But, if you
know as little about them as of the president of
the nearby country for example, then, despite
the "heat" of the subject, is it not better not
to publicly insult your intellegence by posting
irresponsible and shallow opinions ?

Peace and long life.
 
  • #29
kat
39
0
Originally posted by Zero
I wonder if somewhere, back in the mists of history, the Jews didn't earn the beginnings of the hatred. Remember, the Bible describes Jewish tribes committing genocide...

I don't know if this comment should be defined as "racist" or just plain old ignorance.
Zero-this line of thought appears to be based on the assumption that Jewish biblical history is independent of the history of the other Abrahamic religions. This is inherently false, islam and christianity share the same early biblical history as the Jews in all it's glory and violence.
 
  • #30
Religions like Buddhism and Christianity totally
denounce violence (although Christians apparently
forgot that part about a phousand years ago).
Religions like Islam and Judaism do not fully
denounce violence. The Jews however did not
coexist as unified people for phousands of years
and so their application of their religious life
became a peaceful one.
As for what you actually said - apparently you
never read the Koran, have you ?

Let me help - it's online, very easy to find, just
type in Koran in google. Then do a search on the
word "fight", you'll find plenty of stuff that
to me clearly means revenge and intentional violence.
The point is - how do you interpret this and
why should you emphasise this ? Below is
a short historical discription of why
these lines are read more tentativly by many
Muslims today than the lines about peace.
Kidding ? I've read Quran more than 7 times.
Anyway , yes , some parts of Quran asks muslims to fight , but to fight who ... to fight Islam enemies , like the poeple who are fighting Islam , or to fight the side that prevents Muslims from their freedom of worship , or to fight the poeple who are killing Muslims ...
Islam didn't say fight that group because it's poeple are not Muslims , but the Jews FAKED religion says that you have to fight every Non-Jew .
Becuase you don't know what Islam is , you explain it the way you like ... Acually Islam is a life system , everything has rule in it.

The Topic is about Jews , and why they are hated , if you want to Discuss Islam , start a new Topic.

----------------------------------
Back to the topic , The jews are hated for so many reasons .
1- they think that they are the chosen poeple , the poeple God like, and anyone who is not of them is a lower person, and this lower person's life is not important, only their life is important.
2- their deals between Non-Jews are full of deceptions and trickeries , but their deals between each other are honset and good.
3- they have discrimination in color/root/languages...etc.
4- they are money slaves , all they care for is money ( See 'Merchant of Venice' by Shakespeare. )
 
  • #31
Originally posted by C0mmie
In the last few months, Israel has pulled out of Palestenian territory several times, only to get hit by several waves of suicide bombings. In my opinion, the same will happen when a Palestenian state is created: they will try to attack Israeli civillians again. Who is it that's not giving peace a chance?

When poeple become homeless, foodless, hopeless ...etc. and also tormented by their authorities , do you think they will be happy ? or getting their home destroyed will make them just leave ?
Acually this consolidates the hate between the two sides, if the Israeli side stopped killing CHILDREN AND WOMEN , and destroying homes , and assassinations of some Palestinians , then hate will become less , and those attacks will not have any excuses to happen .
I fully agree. But for peace to last the Palestenians have to do something to stop Hamas and Hizbulla(sp?), whose only goal is the destruction of Israel. So far, the Palestenian leadership has been doing nothing to stop these terrorist organizations, and in fact Arafat is supporting them. Israel has no choice but to defend itself.
Sharon's main goal is to destroy every tiny thing that might lead to make a Palestinian idependent country, if he allowed the Palestinian country to come up , Hamas and Hizbuallah won't have excuses to attack Israel.
Add to that that the National Palestinian Authority doesn't have real control, It's police are getting killed by Israeli forces , and Polics stations are getting destroyed by Israeli attacks , Governmental buildings are getting detroyed by Israeli forces, Governmental adminstrators are getting assassinated by Israeli Forces , journalism is not allowed becuase Israel thinks that Newspapers courages poeple to make bas actions , Food transportation is fully controlled by Israeli government ...etc.
So , next time you hear Sharon oppressing the Palestinain side for the resonsibility of the Bombing actions, ask yourself how much control PNA have ? And why they don't have too much control !
 
  • #32
C0mmie
64
0
f he allowed the Palestinian country to come up , Hamas and Hizbuallah won't have excuses to attack Israel.
Hamas has stated on several occasions that they will not stop the suicide bombings even if a Palestenian state is created.

Your previous two posts are a classic example of Muslim extremist propoganda.

The Topic is about Jews , and why they are hated , if you want to Discuss Islam , start a new Topic.
Actually, the shortcomings or Islam is the biggest reason for anti-Semitism today.

1- they think that they are the chosen poeple , the poeple God like, and anyone who is not of them is a lower person, and this lower person's life is not important, only their life is important.
Find me a religion or an ethnic group that doesn't think that about themselves.

2- their deals between Non-Jews are full of deceptions and trickeries , but their deals between each other are honset and good.
It is natural for people to trust others of their own ethnic group more than outsiders, but there is no deception and trickery in this. Furthermore, Arafat has promised on numerous occasions to stop Hamas and Hizbuallah from carrying out more suicide bombings, but in reality is only funding more attacks against Israeli civillians. You don't call that deception and trickery?!

3- they have discrimination in color/root/languages...etc.
What?!

4- they are money slaves , all they care for is money
How many Jewish people do you know? I'm guessing that you don't know many, and you shouldn't make comments like cause you have no idea what you are talking about. I personally know many Jews, including myself, who don't really care about money.
 
  • #33
Guys, let's try to find the root of the problem, not rehash the current debacle, ok? I suggested that the roots come from Biblical times, and I do think it is valid. When you have a large group who feels that they are 'chosen', and they feel it is ok to exterminate other groups, no one is going to like them...especially since they grabbed big chunks of the best real estate. And, especially in this region it seems, memories are very long, if selective.
 
  • #34
C0mmie
64
0
Originally posted by Zero
When you have a large group who feels that they are 'chosen',
Every single monotheistic religion has thought that God was on their side and that they are 'chosen.' So why is it ok for everyone else to do it but not the Jews.

especially since they grabbed big chunks of the best real estate.
So did the Romans, Greeks, Ottoman Turks, Mongols, and every other major civilization in history, so why is it that we love Italians and Greeks, but hate Jews?

Perhaps its time to stop trying to justify anti-Semitism and racism, wouldn't you agree, Zero? :wink:
 
  • #35
drag
Science Advisor
1,100
1
Greetings !

Zargawee, if the above two messages truly
reflect what you THINK rather than something
you simply feel more relaxed after writing,
then, considering this is a forum for people
who really think and despite the fact that I
understand that a life surrounded by propoganda
and your relativly young age are a problem -
well, if that is indeed what you think then
I personally, with all due respect, am not going
to respond to your messages in this particular
thread anymore. Thought is a process that requires
effort - like lifting a heavy rock, but once you
excersize it enough in any field - it becomes easier.

*edit*Language Guidelines: Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted.


Live long and prosper.
 
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