Am I a Sinner? Exploring the Concept of Justice in God's Eyes

[Saint]

Do you think the judgement in the book of Revelation is Incrimination or Fair judgement ?

If I did wrong, i offended people, not God. I can allow the people i hurt to punish me, but not God.

 

[Sunfist]

Honestly, I tend to not put a whole ton of stock in that book. Remember, it was a guy who had a dream and then woke up and wrote it down. Some would argue that since it's in the Bible then it has to be correct do to God's influence, but I'm not going to.

Plus, you simply cannot take one line, or even one book, from the Bible and obsess over it. You have to get an understanding of the whole thing. I think that's the point.

 

[jagger]

Saint, you are not a sinner, you may have sinned, but you are not a sinner.

 

[Hurkyl]

Here's a little hint: if a religion or ideology makes you feel bad, ignore it, and find another one. Take what is useful to you, and discard the rest.

I must advise against this. Remorse is, in general, a healthy emotion, both on the individual level and the societal level.

Before discarding something that makes you feel bad (be it a religion, an ethical standard, or anything really), be sure that it's not an unhealthy feeling.

 

[lazydrock]

Kissing butt is the only way to go, according to some of you. Or should I say that kissing God's butt gets you into heaven. Ha. You know nothing. If you evaluated the life of the average true believer, I say true believer cause many people who go to church are not Christians, you will find that they treat God like crap. The Bible has passages and passages of what to do and not to do. By denying certain ones or disobeying them, in the Christian faith, you deny God's presence. So it is not a matter of kissing up it is a matter do doing what is right, morally right. Something that many philosophers of past and present agree. Aristotle believed that one shoudl not offend others when speak but that was hundreds of years ago. So look at Kenneth Burke, a communications theorist, and a non-believer, who had the same belief as Aristotle, not to mention he used God or an example of God in his theories to explain good verse evil.

Here is a question for you. Do you believe in a god?

 

[nautica]

Originally posted by lazydrock
Do you believe in a god?

What does that have to do with anything? Satan, himself, believes in God.

Nautica

 

[lazydrock]

Not the God of the Christian faith. But a god.

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Zero
The whole thing is nonsense...a supposedly perfect creator created a seriously flawed creation, and then blames the creation.

I certainly would agree...if that were true, Zero. Actually, the Perfect Creator created a perfect creation [complete with the ability to choose not to believe He exists]. Unfortunately, with the "help"/trickery of the enemy of this Perfect Creator, the Earth's first inhabitants[part of the perfect creation], surrendered their beautiful home...to the enemy. The rest is...ahem...we know it too well...and live it every day.

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Phobos
I fail to see how eternal damnation* is fair for any sin or combination of sins. The punishment is out of proportion to the crime.

That is entirely logical. And you would have proof from the Bible that that is true. Careful study of that Book also would clarify why humans are sinners...or breakers of the Perfect Creator's laws.

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Saint


In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

The Bible presents an even stranger scenario:
the Perfect Creator[ the One declaring humans to be sinners, via human language & humans]dying, as a human, one of the most horrible deaths one could conceive, having lived a life of doing nothing but good, so His sinful creation[who chose to to act on the suggestion of the Perfect Creator's enemy] would not have to be wiped out eternally [different from being tortured eternally for sin].

Is That just/fair?

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by FZ+
I think the problem isn't that but rather there is eternal punishment for a system of laws that you may not even know, and the rather dare I say it, materialist idea of two wrongs make a right inherent in the idea of punishment. Why should moral action be motivated by fear?

Your points make perfect sense.
1. The Bible makes it plain that all the Perfect Creator's laws will be made known to all[Matt 24:14].

2.Moral action that is encouraged by the Perfect Creator is not motivated by fear[I John4:17].

 

[Moonbear]

Initially the OT says that God will judge us based on our deeds, good and bad. For the bad we did, we will get punished "accordingly", for the good we did, we will get rewarded "accordingly" too; however, when it comes to NT, especially Revelation, the people are just separated into goats and sheep, the goats go to hell and the sheep go to heaven.

So, there is totally no Reward for the good done by the goats!
Is this the justice of God ?

Christians say that God can not tolerate even a little sin, so the unpardoned sinners must be banished from his face.
But, not believing in Jesus does not mean I am wicked, unrepenting! I could believe in other religions and do even better than the so-called christians. Anyway, christianity says that I can not be saved through my good deeds, no matter how hard I try!
It turns out to be I MUST ACCEPT JESUS as my Savior!
This sounds spooky to me, because I am FORCED to believe, it is CHOICE OF NO CHOICE.

Anyone who has ever been on a farm would recognize the distinction between goats and sheep has nothing to do with sin. Goats are individuals, they do their own thing (much to the consternation of the farmer trying to keep track of them), leaders if you will. Sheep are followers, they stick with the flock, just do whatever the group does without thinking about it. So all that statement says is they are trying to persuade you to be a follower, with the threat of eternal damnation if, gasp, you should start to think for yourself. That's because religion and fear of god has long been used as a means for dictators (or kings...or the pope) to maintain their power over the people, by convincing them they are appointed by this so-called god and if the people don't follow their arbitrary laws and actually stop to think about how arbitrary they are, then they will be punished with eternal suffering.

So, indeed, you do have a choice. Be a goat and realize nothing is going to happen because everything in the Bible is an elaborate fiction. Religious organizations control a great deal of wealth and political power, and the leaders of those religions, who profit the most from the comforts afforded by this wealth and power, will say or do anything to keep their followers in line and continuing to tithe over their hard-earned money.

If you just can't part with the notion that religion is real, then at least stop beating yourself up about sinning. You say you're not as bad as a criminal, so your sin isn't something that is considered a crime. I don't know if all Christian religions are like this, but in Catholicism, sins are divided up by severity. Some are easy to repent. Pretty much if you regret it and confess to it and make some amends for it, it's forgiven. Others are much more egregious and will pretty much damn you to hell. But those are pretty serious, and unless it's gluttony, most of those will land you in jail one way or another if you really are committing something that bad. But even with the 7 deadly sins, those really are talking about extremes and repeatedly doing the same thing over and over and not being sorry for it. With the gluttony example, it's not considered a sin to pig out at your Christmas dinner. However, it would be a sin if you were 300 lbs and hoarding all the food in the house for you and only you while your kids were going hungry. But, then our basic moral code would say this is wrong too.

This leaves a question that I sometimes ponder. Is our moral code based on religious laws, or are religious laws based on some innate moral code intended for species survival?

 

[Loren Booda]

A sinner is someone with a purpose - to be improved, not damned. A God, without sin, is above scapegoating sinners by eternal damnation. Given free will, people do more to damn each other than general adherence to God's laws would.

 

[Janitor]

If I may ask a question-

I can kind of understand how Christians get out of the Old Testament commandment to atone for your human sins by killing an animal of this or that type and burning it on an altar. But how do modern Jews get out of doing that? To the best of my knowledge, Jewish people, even in Israel, are not fulfilling that part of The Law in the year 2004.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I have not read the history on this post, I am answering Janitor's last question:

The Jews stopped doing animal sacrifices when their temples was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. They reasoned that no temple = no sacrifice.

Personally, I don't get it. Their temple had been destroyed twice before and they built it back. Before they had a temple, they had a movable tent where they made the sacrifices. It was only begrudgingly that God permitted them to build a temple in the first place. Seems like rebuilding the temple or going back to a tent should have allowed them to fulfill their law.

I think the Christian position makes a lot of sense, that the OT animal sacrifice was supposed to be symbolic - to show people that their sins did need a payment in blood. But that the real sacrifice that would permantly take care of this issue was the one Christ made - on Friday of Passover week (when the lamb would be slaughtered in the OT rite), and that when it happened the veil inside the temple that separated the Holy of Holies (where God resided) from the rest of the temple was torn in two...showing that there was no more separation between the people and GOd that needed a priest to sacrifice...that Christ became the mediator and had paid for sin once and for all.

 

[Dayle Record]

In the story Eve says, "Heeeyahhh how do you like these apples, baby?" She apparently likes apples a lot more than she fears the wrath of her creator. That is a problem with the creators design. If the creator wanted a super obedient, good sized primate, he should have lessened her cranial capacity, and done away with the apples entirely. I see this as a flaw in the original format. But the nomenclature was unclear and that became instead of original format, original sin. Eve's sin, was to be as designed. Disobedience to her design is also disobedience to her designer. The whole thing from the opening story to the preposterous, logical leaps, is flawed in the most ungodly manner.

The concept of original sin, or even sin, is pure manipulation. For instance, I am sinning as I sit here to reply. I am sinfully educated by some measures, I sin when I venture an opinion. I sin because I am unmarried, but of age to be serving a man. I sin because I think of other things besides scripture, of any kind. I sinned today, because I left my house with my head uncovered. I sinned because I drove a car, because I bought a burrito filled with cooked pork, and ate it. If I counted up all the things I am not allowed to do, because it constitutes a sin in some earthly religion, I would not be able to move about my house. I wouldn't have a house, because it is a sin for me to own property, to be out from under the control of my father. To take pleasure in the beauty of this day, is intemperate.

The concept of sin, is the most annoying projection of God's nature, ever. The concept of sin, it the remnant of abuse that we have endured as humans for as long as we have been human. The idea that we just can't be, without continuous concern regarding the horrific that awaits us in eternity. Hey, I adore eternity, all of it, it is great here, there and everywhere. Don't let yourself be robbed of it, by weird, petty projections.

 

[Dayle Record]

More opinionated spew from me.

I have erred, I must mend my ways of posting.

 

[olde drunk]

I have erred, I must mend my ways of posting.

gee, just when i thought i made a good case of showing ProtractedSilence that there were no sins, you come along and confess.

shame on you!

oh, before i leave, i grant you total absolution (provided you put $20.00 in the collection plate).

now next week, if you continue in your womanly ways, you will be given a penance and you will need to increase you contribution. afterall, the more guilt you have the more we make.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I think you guys have missed the point, although I think your dialogue quite amusing.

Dayle - God didn't want obedience. Dogs give obedience. God wanted a voluntary relationship, a relationship that requires choices to interact. Adam's sin (every place in the Bible that talks about original sin blames it on Adam, both because he was the leader of their relationship, and had been told directly by God what not to do) was to stop trusting that what God had said was good, and choosing to define good as something else.

You have also missed out on understanding how Christ's death affects the way we relate to God. He fulfilled a law that we could not (head coverings, eating habits, ceremonies, moral qualifications, etc.) so that our sin was paid for and we could have a personal relationship with God.

Paul describes this in his letter to Galatia:

Galatians 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

And also in his letter to Ephesus:

Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

And here is commentary about how we are freed from sin through accepting the death of Christ as payment for our own sin.

Romans 6:10-14 “For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”

Following Christ is not about dos and don’ts, it is a relationship.

Colossians 2:20-23 “If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”

 

[olde drunk]

ProtractedSilence: shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh; i got her puttin money in the collection. she feels guilty, let's play it for all it's worth.

we can sell plenary indulgences for hundreds. gulit is a go motivator for raising money.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

You don't have to pay for forgiveness or freedom from sin, you just ask for it. Be careful not to confuse church history with what God says.

 

[olde drunk]

i refuse to ask for forgiveness! (STAMPING FEET! here)

i don't wanna!

why give me the opportunity to be me and then punish me when i screw up. this is too illogical.

peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

you still get to be you. The issue is the justice of God. There are things that are right (things that help other people) and things that are wrong (things that hurt other people). For God to be just, he must punish the wrong, otherwise it is equally okay to adopt and care for orphans as it is to murder your family.