Can c be set equal to 1 in certain systems of units?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the advantages of simplifying formulas by using consistent units, particularly when measuring time in seconds and distances in light-seconds. This not only saves time in typing but also allows for a more focused understanding of the physics involved. It is also compared to the use of F=ma instead of F=kma, where k represents a unit conversion factor. The conversation also touches on the use of normalized speeds, where dividing velocity by the speed of light (c=1) results in a ratio of 1, making the physics clearer.
  • #71
Mister T said:
let's look at Mermin's way of writing ##c## as ##1## phoot per nanosecond, where the phoot is defined as ##0.299\ 792\ 458## meters

And how is a meter defined? If it is defined as the length of a particular stick somewhere, then you are correct that the phoot and the nanosecond are different units (since the nanosecond is defined in terms of the second, which is defined in terms of a particular atomic transition frequency).

But if the meter is defined in the SI manner, as the distance light travels in a certain fraction of a second, then the phoot and the nanosecond are the same unit, just with two different names for historical reasons. With the phoot defined in this way (using the SI definition of the meter), the speed of light has to be ##1##, a dimensionless number, because the definitions of the meter and the definition of the second are not independent, therefore the definitions of the phoot and the second aren't either.

The same can be said about SI units; SI units are defined (currently) in such a way that the speed of light has a constant value of 299,792,458. We usually quote this as having units of "meters per second", but this does not express our best value for the speed of light in terms of a relationship between two independently defined physical standards, which is what "different units" would mean. It just expresses the fact that, again for historical reasons, our "standard" units make ##c## be a really wacky dimensionless number, 299,792,458, instead of the obvious dimensionless number 1.
 
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  • #72
PeterDonis said:
And how is a meter defined? If it is defined as the length of a particular stick somewhere, [...]

No, we'll use the modern ##\mathrm {SI}## definition. The distance light travels in a time of ##\frac{1}{299\ 792\ 458}\ \mathrm s##.

But if the meter is defined in the SI manner, as the distance light travels in a certain fraction of a second, then the phoot and the nanosecond are the same unit, just with two different names for historical reasons.

Ahhh... I see now what you're getting at.

The same can be said about SI units; SI units are defined (currently) in such a way that the speed of light has a constant value of 299,792,458. We usually quote this as having units of "meters per second", but this does not express our best value for the speed of light in terms of a relationship between two independently defined physical standards, which is what "different units" would mean. It just expresses the fact that, again for historical reasons, our "standard" units make ##c## be a really wacky dimensionless number, 299,792,458, instead of the obvious dimensionless number 1.

Well, if I remember correctly, in a recent GCPM they passed a resolution to move the definitions of more SI units to the same scheme used to define the meter. That is, rather than basing the definition on an artifact and measuring the values of fundamental constants, the scheme will be to set the values of fundamental constants and use that to define the units. For example, we'll likely soon see Avagadro's Number set to a fixed value that will be used to define the kilogram, rather than relying on an artifact for the definition of the kilogram and then measuring Avadadro's Number.

But, anyway, I will have to think about how I'm going to explain dimensionless numbers to students. Currently I'm fond of remarking that they are special in the sense that their value is independent of the units used to measure them. Clearly, if the speed of light is, as a result of the way the meter is defined, a dimensionless number that can apparently take on any value, I can no longer say that..
 
  • #73
Mister T said:
I will have to think about how I'm going to explain dimensionless numbers to students.

You just have to be clear about which numbers actually are dimensionless numbers whose value is truly independent of your choice of units. The speed of light is not such a number, as you remark. The fine structure constant, to give one example, is.
 
  • #74
PeterDonis said:
The same can be said about SI units; SI units are defined (currently) in such a way that the speed of light has a constant value of 299,792,458. We usually quote this as having units of "meters per second", but this does not express our best value for the speed of light in terms of a relationship between two independently defined physical standards, which is what "different units" would mean. It just expresses the fact that, again for historical reasons, our "standard" units make ##c## be a really wacky dimensionless number, 299,792,458, instead of the obvious dimensionless number 1.
Well, one should note that the SI units are defined to be convenient for engineering and trade in everyday-life and not for the beauty of theoretical physics. Usually SI units lead to ugly equations that hide the beauty and hinders physics intuition by a great deal. The worst example is electromagnetics in SI units, where all the beauty of the relativistic covariant (quantum) field theory is hidden under clumsy conversion factors ##\epsilon_0## and ##\mu_0##. The only conversion factor that has physical relevance is the speed of light in vacuo, ##c##, and this is in addition best set to ##c=1## and then measuring lengths and times in the same units, as just discussed here.
 
  • #75
PeterDonis said:
You just have to be clear about which numbers actually are dimensionless numbers whose value is truly independent of your choice of units. The speed of light is not such a number, as you remark.

It's the only one, I think. For now at least, as I remarked above. According to official ##\mathrm{SI}## literature, the ratio ##\mathrm{\frac{m}{s}}## is formed by combining two of the seven independent base units. As such it is not considered by them to be dimensionless.
 
  • #76
Mister T said:
According to official ##\mathrm{SI}## literature, the ratio ##\mathrm{\frac{m}{s}}## is formed by combining two of the seven independent base units.

Yes, but this is because they are using the word "independent" in a totally unusual way, since the definition of the meter depends on the definition of the second and so is not independent of it in any normal sense of that word.
 
  • #77
PeterDonis said:
Yes, but this is because they are using the word "independent" in a totally unusual way, since the definition of the meter depends on the definition of the second and so is not independent of it in any normal sense of that word.

Right. So they will have to move forward from this antiquated way of speaking about the very units they are defining, especially as they continue with their efforts to no longer define the base units in terms of artifacts.
 
  • #78
May I propose a different point of view about units and physical constants? I could start an explanation by myself, but I guess a field medalist will give a better exposition:

https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/a-mathematical-formalisation-of-dimensional-analysis/

a short extract said:
However, as any student of physics is aware, most physical quantities are not represented purely by one or more numbers, but instead by a combination of a number and some sort of unit. For instance, it would be a category error to assert that the length of some object was a number such as
latex.png
; instead, one has to say something like “the length of this object is
latex.png
yards”, combining both a number
latex.png
and a unit (in this case, the yard).
 
  • #79
I use c "equal to 1" for convenience when I want to calculate a time in "how many YEARS," and/or I want to calculate a distance in "how many LIGHT YEARS." Remember that when c is set equal to 1, it means that c is a measure of speed wherein c = 1 lightyear/year. Of course: by definition a photon will go 1 light year in a year moving at the speed of light. (Thus you could say that the speed of a car is 1 when it goes 1 mile in 1 minute, and that would be an efficient way to calculate miles driven and/or minutes elapsed for a given car.)

This kind of calculation comes up for space vehicles when special relativity is used (gravitational fields and the expansion of the universe are ignored). E.g., calculate how far IN LIGHT YEARS ("d") a space vehicle will travel while accelerating for a given number of YEARS ("T," proper time on the vehicle) at a constant acceleration ("a') of 1.03 LIGHT YEARS per YEAR per YEAR. That particular acceleration conveniently happens to be Newton's g force, so that practically a = 1 g.

With c = 1, an easy way to solve for d in LIGHT YEARS is to use the trig function cosh (the trajectory is hyperbolic), and the equation is

d = (c squared/a)(cosh[aT/c] -1).

You can get cosh on most scientific calculators that have trig functions, and since c = 1, the solution requires only a few key strokes. (You should get d = 0.56 LIGHT YEARS after one YEAR.)

And if you wanted to know how many years "t" elapsed (in "coordinate time;" think twins paradox) meanwhile on earth, you can use sinh:

t = (c/a)(sinh[aT/c]), again a piece of cake when c = 1.

(You can avoid hyperbolic trig functions, but the algebra is much harder [uses forms of the Lorenz contraction]. But even this is easier with c = 1.)
 
  • #80
Actually I think I can hardly make sense of a paradigm where c=1 because it implies that physical quantities are mere numbers. But apparenlty many people here find this natural. Isn't this due to historical reasons? I seemed to me this view tended to become obsolete now and had a lot of drawbacks.
 
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  • #81
Measure distance in feet anf time in nanoseconds. Or distance in light years and time in years. Or distance in light anything and time in the same anything. In all cases the speed of light is 1. We can, as long as we are confident in our algebra, simply ignore it. We can always put it back in by dimensional analysis if we wish to switch to units where it is not 1.

I don't think anyone is suggesting ignoring the dimensionality of c. We are simply selecting units where we can ignore it numerically.
 
  • #82
Ibix said:
Measure distance in feet anf time in nanoseconds. Or distance in light years and time in years. Or distance in light anything and time in the same anything. In all cases the speed of light is 1.
I have a different opinion. It's not 1, it's 1 light year per year, or in other words 1 c. If you drop completely the unit then you're commiting a category error (the same kind of error as equating a number with a vector for example). If you don't then you're just stating a tautology. c is an object that is irreductible tot 1 or to any other number.
Ibix said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting ignoring the dimensionality of c. We are simply selecting units where we can ignore it numerically.
"ignore it nummerically" implies that you consider "c" is a number in the first place. What precisely I don't agree with.
 
  • #83
burakumin said:
I have a different opinion. It's not 1, it's 1 light year per year, or in other words 1 c. If you drop completely the unit then you're commiting a category error (the same kind of error as equating a number with a vector for example). If you don't then you're just stating a tautology. c is an object that is irreductible tot 1 or to any other number.
But a category error without consequence, as long as I pick units where the numerical value of c is 1. If I care about it I can always re-insert the c and G at any point because it can be uniquely determined by dimensional analysis (assuming I didn't make any mistake in the algebra) with no effect on the numbers.

If you prefer, you can consider the c taken into the units. So I measure distance in feet and time in feet/c, which has the correct dimensionality and and the numerical component of which is equal to the time measured in ns. A velocity in these units ends up having units of c.

burakumin said:
"ignore it nummerically" implies that you consider "c" is a number in the first place. What precisely I don't agree with.
At some point I'm going to put the numbers into the calculator or computer, and I will only be putting in the numbers. I save myself some work if I pick units where I don't have to keep track of powers of c and G because I know their numerical value is 1.
 
  • #84
Ibix said:
But a category error without consequence, as long as I pick units where the numerical value of c is 1.

A consequence is apparently the existence of endless debates and incompréhensions on the nature of physical quantities, objects and equations.

Ibix said:
If you prefer, you can consider the c taken into the units. So I measure distance in feet and time in feet/c, which has the correct dimensionality and and the numerical component of which is equal to the time measured in ns. A velocity in these units ends up having units of c.

This is what I already do. I don't think we disagree here.

Ibix said:
At some point I'm going to put the numbers into the calculator or computer, and I will only be putting in the numbers. I save myself some work if I pick units where I don't have to keep track of powers of c and G because I know their numerical value is 1.

Sure but there exists different perspectives. In your example (and in general) it seems you're mainly concerned with computational aspects. I'm more interested in conceptual ones. An image also needs to be encoded into numbers to be handled by a computer. There are various formats and encodings. But certainly you would not explain to someone (a child for example) that an image is a certain sequence of numbers according the jpeg format. This should be the same for physical quantities and it appears to me that several comments in this thread refer to the nature of physical concepts. So in the end I agree that choosing units such that c has numerical value 1 may simplify calculation. But I certainly do not agree with the statement already proposed here that it clarifies physics.
 
  • #85
burakumin said:
Actually I think I can hardly make sense of a paradigm where c=1 because it implies that physical quantities are mere numbers
I would instead say it implies that physical units are mere conventions, which is correct.

burakumin said:
If you drop completely the unit then you're commiting a category error (the same kind of error as equating a number with a vector for example).
Not necessarily. It depends on your system of units. In some systems of units c is a dimensionful 1 (i.e. in Planck units c = 1 Planck length / Planck time), but in other systems of units it is dimensionless (e.g. in geometrized units c = 1).

The dimensionality of a quantity is not given by Nature, it is a man-made convention that we can change as desired within some logical limits.
 
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  • #86
Dale said:
I would instead say it implies that physical units are mere conventions, which is correct.
I do not agree. Statements "physical units are mere conventions" and "physical quantities are numbers" are not equivalent. "c=1" implies at least that speeds can be identified absolutely to number which is certainly stronger than just asserting that "meter/second" is no more special than "inch/year" or "parsec/hour".
Dale said:
The dimensionality of a quantity is not given by Nature, it is a man-made convention that we can change as desired within some logical limits.
This is a strong philosophical statement. Now I think this sentence could be understood in different manners (from the weakest to the strongest):
- The exact dimensionality of certain quantities can be arbitrary chosen within some contraints (possibly as dimensionless in some cases)
- There are dimensionless and dimensionful quantities but distinctions of kind between dimensionful quantities is arbitrary (so a ratio between two of them can always be thought as a number).
- The whole notion of physical dimensionality is arbitrary so we could reduce any quantity to a number in an absolute manner.
Did you imply one of them (or something else I didn't think of) ?
 
  • #87
Dale said:
The dimensionality of a quantity is not given by Nature

Strictly speaking, this is only true of quantities that are not "natural" constants. Quantities that are, for example the fine structure constant, do have dimensionality that is "given by Nature" (namely that they are dimensionless and have the same value regardless of any human choice of units).
 
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  • #88
burakumin said:
I do not agree. Statements "physical units are mere conventions" and "physical quantities are numbers" are not equivalent. "c=1" implies at least that speeds can be identified absolutely to number which is certainly stronger than just asserting that "meter/second" is no more special than "inch/year" or "parsec/hour".

But speeds can be identified absolutely by number: as a fraction of the universal speed limit. Hence the ##v/c## that we find everywhere in special relativity, no?
 
  • #89
PeterDonis said:
Strictly speaking, this is only true of quantities that are not "natural" constants. Quantities that are, for example the fine structure constant, do have dimensionality that is "given by Nature" (namely that they are dimensionless and have the same value regardless of any human choice of units).
I like that. I had never thought of that, but you are correct. No system of units can assign dimensions to the fine structure constant, etc.
 
  • #90
burakumin said:
Statements "physical units are mere conventions" and "physical quantities are numbers" are not equivalent.
I agree that they are not equivalent. That is why I would say the first one and not say the second one.

burakumin said:
"c=1" implies at least that speeds can be identified absolutely to number which is certainly stronger than just asserting that "meter/second" is no more special than "inch/year" or "parsec/hour".
Yes. And while this is true for speeds it is not true for all physical quantities, which is why I would not say "physical quantities are mere numbers". At most "some physical quantities are mere numbers".

burakumin said:
Did you imply one of them (or something else I didn't think of) ?
I am not sure, but perhaps it is easier to speak of concrete examples.

Are you aware of cgs units, which are often used in electromagnetics? In cgs units the unit of electric charge is the statcoulomb. The statcoulomb is not a base unit, but a derived unit equal to ##1 cm^{3/2} g^{1/2} s^{-1}##. So the dimensionality of the statcoulomb is ##L^{3/2} M^{1/2} T^{-1}##, which differs from the dimensionality of electric charge in SI. So the dimensionality of electric charge is a matter of convention.
 
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  • #91
burakumin said:
Actually I think I can hardly make sense of a paradigm where c=1 because it implies that physical quantities are mere numbers.

Hardly. If physical quantities were mere numbers there'd be no need for the ##\mathrm{SI}## and the attendant science of metrology. But it is the metrologists who have set things up so that ##c## is now dimensionless. The fact that it can be expressed as ##1## or as ##299\ 792\ 458 \ \mathrm{m/s}## or indeed as any number at all tells you that as a physical quantity it is far more than a mere number.
 
  • #92
Ibix said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting ignoring the dimensionality of c. We are simply selecting units where we can ignore it numerically.

If that's true then I've completely misunderstood Post #71.
 
  • #93
SiennaTheGr8 said:
But speeds can be identified absolutely by number: as a fraction of the universal speed limit. Hence the ##v/c## that we find everywhere in special relativity, no?
This is traditionally called beta. It is dimensionless, and, for a given object, is the same in all systems of units. For precisely this reason, it is not a speed. On expects that a speed expressed in meters/second should be a different number from the same speed expressed in feet per hour. Thus, there is a difference between a speed expressed in units where c=1 (it still has units, e.g. light seconds per second), while beta has no units.
 
  • #94
PeterDonis said:
And how is a meter defined? If it is defined as the length of a particular stick somewhere, then you are correct that the phoot and the nanosecond are different units (since the nanosecond is defined in terms of the second, which is defined in terms of a particular atomic transition frequency).

But if the meter is defined in the SI manner, as the distance light travels in a certain fraction of a second, then the phoot and the nanosecond are the same unit, just with two different names for historical reasons. With the phoot defined in this way (using the SI definition of the meter), the speed of light has to be ##1##, a dimensionless number, because the definitions of the meter and the definition of the second are not independent, therefore the definitions of the phoot and the second aren't either.

The same can be said about SI units; SI units are defined (currently) in such a way that the speed of light has a constant value of 299,792,458. We usually quote this as having units of "meters per second", but this does not express our best value for the speed of light in terms of a relationship between two independently defined physical standards, which is what "different units" would mean. It just expresses the fact that, again for historical reasons, our "standard" units make ##c## be a really wacky dimensionless number, 299,792,458, instead of the obvious dimensionless number 1.
I don't completely agree with this. Distance is defined in terms of light speed and time, as a distance traveled; time is not defined in reference to light speed. To me, this makes it a separate unit. Lightspeed has a defined value, but this value has units, allowing it to act as conversion factor from, e.g. seconds to meters. [edit: one could have units where there is no distance unit, e.g. distances are measured as the time light takes to travel. Then there is only a base unit of seconds, rather than separate base units of meters and seconds. But that is not what SI does].
 
  • #95
PAllen said:
Distance is defined in terms of light speed and time, as a distance traveled; time is not defined in reference to light speed. To me, this makes it a separate unit.

This is a question about how you want to use the expression "separate unit". My point is that the SI unit of distance is ultimately based on the same physical standard--cesium clocks--as the SI unit of time. Whereas, before that change was made, the SI unit of distance was based on a different physical standard--a standard meter stick--than the SI unit of time.

PAllen said:
Lightspeed has a defined value, but this value has units, allowing it to act as conversion factor from, e.g. seconds to meters.

But this is just a matter of nomenclature. We only call the distance unit a "meter" instead of a "second" for historical reasons. There is no separate physical standard in SI for what a "meter" is; it's just a particular fraction (1/299792458) of a second. The denominator of that fraction has "units" of "meters per second", again, for historical reasons, because we are still using the term "meter" to denote 1/299792458 of a second, instead of just calling it a fraction of a second.

PAllen said:
one could have units where there is no distance unit, e.g. distances are measured as the time light takes to travel. Then there is only a base unit of seconds, rather than separate base units of meters and seconds. But that is not what SI does

Yes, it is. It wasn't before the latest change to the SI meter was made, but it is now; a meter is 1/299792458 of a second, as above. It has to be, because there is only one physical standard in use: cesium clocks. The fact that our standard terminology obfuscates this fact does not mean it isn't a fact.

If you mean that, in practice, we don't use cesium clocks to measure distance, we use rulers, that's true, but it's irrelevant when we're talking about how SI units are defined. If I have a meter stick that claims to measure exactly one SI meter, that claim is strictly speaking unjustified unless I have a cesium clock and a way of timing light traveling from end to end of my meter stick to verify that it takes exactly 1/299792458 of a second according to the clock. Otherwise the stick is not measuring SI meters; it's measuring something that, for the practical purpose for which I'm using it, is equivalent to SI meters, but it's still not the same thing.
 
  • #96
PAllen said:
This is traditionally called beta. It is dimensionless, and, for a given object, is the same in all systems of units. For precisely this reason, it is not a speed. On expects that a speed expressed in meters/second should be a different number from the same speed expressed in feet per hour. Thus, there is a difference between a speed expressed in units where c=1 (it still has units, e.g. light seconds per second), while beta has no units.

I disagree with you about ##\beta## not being a "speed," but I'm sure we're just arguing semantics. Doubtless you'll agree that ##v## and ##\beta## measure the same physical quantity in different units, much like ##E_0## and ##m## do.
 
  • #97
But I'd argue further that there's a conceptual benefit to conceiving of speeds as dimensionless fractions of the universal speed limit. I don't think of ##\beta## as "shorthand" for anything. It's ##v = \beta c## that's unnatural, an artifact from when we didn't know what we know now.
 
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  • #98
SiennaTheGr8 said:
I disagree with you about ##\beta## not being a "speed," but I'm sure we're just arguing semantics. Doubtless you'll agree that ##v## and ##\beta## measure the same physical quantity in different units, much like ##E_0## and ##m## do.
No, beta is dimensionless no matter what system of units you use, while E0 and m0 are measures with dimension in most systems of units. There is a family of units where beta and speed have the same value. You are free to insist that these units are conceptually preferred with all others being inferior. I am free to reject your insistence, in favor of the view that different units are convenient for different purposes.
 
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  • #99
PeterDonis said:
This is a question about how you want to use the expression "separate unit". My point is that the SI unit of distance is ultimately based on the same physical standard--cesium clocks--as the SI unit of time. Whereas, before that change was made, the SI unit of distance was based on a different physical standard--a standard meter stick--than the SI unit of time.
I do not see it as being defined just by the cesium clock. It is also defined by the physical speed of light. That it is defined so as to give this speed a particular value does not remove the extra element in its definition. I don't know if you are aware that there was an interim period when the meter was defined in terms of wavelengths of a standard light emission, with the second (as now) being defined in terms of period of a standard emission. IMO, the newest definition is just streamlining the wavelength definition by virtue of using speed and period in place of wavelength and period. Any two of these are equivalent to all three. Any one of these is NOT equivalent to all three.
PeterDonis said:
But this is just a matter of nomenclature. We only call the distance unit a "meter" instead of a "second" for historical reasons. There is no separate physical standard in SI for what a "meter" is; it's just a particular fraction (1/299792458) of a second. The denominator of that fraction has "units" of "meters per second", again, for historical reasons, because we are still using the term "meter" to denote 1/299792458 of a second, instead of just calling it a fraction of a second.
I disagree. See above.
PeterDonis said:
Yes, it is. It wasn't before the latest change to the SI meter was made, but it is now; a meter is 1/299792458 of a second, as above. It has to be, because there is only one physical standard in use: cesium clocks. The fact that our standard terminology obfuscates this fact does not mean it isn't a fact.
No, it is the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299792458 seconds. See the difference? I do. We have to actually use the physical speed of light to get the distance. If we didn't use light in a vacuum, we wouldn't be able to get the distance from the time (which comes from the cesium clock, which counts period, not speed).
 
  • #100
PAllen said:
No, beta is dimensionless no matter what system of units you use, while E and m0 are measures with dimension in most systems of units. There is a family of units where beta and speed have the same value. You are free to insist that these units are conceptually preferred with all others being inferior. I am free to reject your insistence, in favor of the view that different units are convenient for different purposes.

Setting ##c=1## likewise gives ##E_0## and ##m## the same value. I really don't think we're disagreeing on anything substantial here.

Cheers.
 
  • #101
PAllen said:
I don't know if you are aware that there was an interim period when the meter was defined in terms of wavelengths of a standard light emission, with the second (as now) being defined in terms of period of a standard emission.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

PAllen said:
IMO, the newest definition is just streamlining the wavelength definition by virtue of using speed and period in place of wavelength and period. Any two of these are equivalent to all three. Any one of these is NOT equivalent to all three.

Hmm. I see what you're saying. I still don't think it's the same as defining "separate units" by using, say, a standard meter stick for distance and a cesium clock for time, but I'll agree that the physical speed of light does provide a second standard.
 
  • #102
Again, the fundamental constants ##c##, ##\hbar##, and ##G## are mere conversion factors between units. Setting them to 1, makes all quantities dimensionless, and everything is measured in "natural units". That's of course impractical to handle. Thus one defines various different systems of units depending on the application you are working on.

You can see this on the example of electromagnetics. There the only fundamental constant appearing in the equations is the speed of light, ##c## (i.e., the phase velocity of electromagnetic waves in a vacuum). However, due to practicality the SI has chosen to introduce an additional unit, the Ampere for electric currents (to be changed very soon by defining the elementary charge, but that doesn't matter here too much), which introduces additional conversion factors, namely ##\epsilon_0## and ##\mu_0##. The relation to the physical units is ##\mu_0 \epsilon_0=1/c^2##.
 
  • #103
PAllen said:
This is traditionally called beta. It is dimensionless, and, for a given object, is the same in all systems of units. For precisely this reason, it is not a speed. On expects that a speed expressed in meters/second should be a different number from the same speed expressed in feet per hour. Thus, there is a difference between a speed expressed in units where c=1 (it still has units, e.g. light seconds per second), while beta has no units.

The central issue in this thread for me is whether it's possible, by a choice of systems of units, to set ##c## identically equal to the dimensionless ##1##. Note, for example, that that is what (at least appears to me that) Taylor Wheeler do in Spacetime Physics.

For example, if we choose a system where distance is measured in meters and time in light meters (the time it takes light to travel a distance of one meter, then ##c=1 \mathrm {\ meter\ per\ light\ meter}##. On the other hand, if we choose a system where distance is measured in meters and time in meters (the time it takes light to travel a distance of one meter) then ##c=1##.

If I interpret what you're saying correctly, it can all be seen as a matter of semantics. If we insist as you do that ##\beta## is not a speed, then I need to give it another name, such as dimensionless speed, or whatever term seems suitable, to make my point. My central issue then becomes whether we have a system of units where the speed ##v## of light is ##1 \mathrm{\ unit\ of\ distance\ per\ unit\ of\ time}## or whether we have a system where the dimensionless speed ##\beta## of light is ##1##.

Of course, it all seems silly when reduced to a matter of semantics. But it seems that's all there is to it!
 
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  • #104
Mister T said:
The central issue in this thread for me is whether it's possible, by a choice of systems of units, to set ##c## identically equal to the dimensionless ##1##. Note, for example, that that is what (at least appears to me that) Taylor Wheeler do in Spacetime Physics.
This is a no-brainer. We (in the high-energy heavy-ion community) use this natural system of units all the time, and it works: There we have ##\hbar=c=k_{\text{B}}=1##. There's only one unit left, usually GeV. For convenience we also use fermi (fm) for lengths and times. The key to go from one to the other base unit is ##\hbar c=0.197 \text{GeV} \text{fm}##. That's all you need in this field.

Of course the choice of the system of units is arbitrary and thus semantics. A change from one to another system doesn't change the physics.
 
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Dale said:
Are you aware of cgs units, which are often used in electromagnetics? In cgs units the unit of electric charge is the statcoulomb. The statcoulomb is not a base unit, but a derived unit equal to ##1 cm^{3/2} g^{1/2} s^{-1}##. So the dimensionality of the statcoulomb is ##L^{3/2} M^{1/2} T^{-1}##, which differs from the dimensionality of electric charge in SI. So the dimensionality of electric charge is a matter of convention.
No I didn't but as far as I understand this is equivalent to stating that the electric constant is a number. So I think this example and the debate about ##c## can be summed up with a single question: To what extent can we consider fundamental physical constants like ##c, \varepsilon_0, h, G, e, m_e, \dots## as naturally identifiable to (dimensionless) numbers (and when we can, to which numbers precisely)? The natural choice would be to set them to 1 (but by the way, which one exactly? Should we set ##h = 1## or ##\hbar = 1## ? ##\varepsilon_0 = 1## or ##\mu_0 = 1## ?).
I think @PeterDonis's remark about the fine structure constant has important consequences. This means in particular that ##\frac{e^2}{\varepsilon_0 \cdot h}## is a speed and it's entirely made up of fundamental constants. Now ##\frac{G \cdot m_e^2}{h}## is also one. And then ##\frac{1}{h} \cdot \sqrt[n+m]{ \frac{G^m \cdot m_e^{2m} \cdot e^{2n}}{\varepsilon_0^n} }## are also speeds for all ##n, m## in ##\mathbb{Z}^*##.
So if we have to identifies fundamental constants to numbers, it suddently becomes unclear (at least to me) which one of these many non-equivalent combinations should be set to 1.
 
<h2>1. Can c be set equal to 1 in certain systems of units?</h2><p>Yes, in certain systems of units, such as the Planck units or the natural units, the speed of light c can be set equal to 1. This is often done for convenience in mathematical calculations.</p><h2>2. What is the significance of setting c equal to 1 in these systems of units?</h2><p>Setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units allows for simplification of equations and eliminates the need for conversion factors. It also highlights the fundamental relationship between space and time in these systems.</p><h2>3. How does setting c equal to 1 affect other physical constants?</h2><p>Setting c equal to 1 does not change the numerical values of other physical constants, but it does change their units. For example, the unit of mass in natural units is the same as the unit of energy (eV) because c is no longer a factor in the equation E=mc^2.</p><h2>4. Are there any limitations to setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units?</h2><p>Yes, setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units is not applicable in all situations. It is typically used in theoretical physics and may not be suitable for practical applications. Additionally, it is not compatible with the International System of Units (SI).</p><h2>5. How does setting c equal to 1 relate to the theory of relativity?</h2><p>Setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units is related to the theory of relativity as it highlights the fundamental role of the speed of light in this theory. It also allows for a more elegant and simplified representation of relativistic equations.</p>

1. Can c be set equal to 1 in certain systems of units?

Yes, in certain systems of units, such as the Planck units or the natural units, the speed of light c can be set equal to 1. This is often done for convenience in mathematical calculations.

2. What is the significance of setting c equal to 1 in these systems of units?

Setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units allows for simplification of equations and eliminates the need for conversion factors. It also highlights the fundamental relationship between space and time in these systems.

3. How does setting c equal to 1 affect other physical constants?

Setting c equal to 1 does not change the numerical values of other physical constants, but it does change their units. For example, the unit of mass in natural units is the same as the unit of energy (eV) because c is no longer a factor in the equation E=mc^2.

4. Are there any limitations to setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units?

Yes, setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units is not applicable in all situations. It is typically used in theoretical physics and may not be suitable for practical applications. Additionally, it is not compatible with the International System of Units (SI).

5. How does setting c equal to 1 relate to the theory of relativity?

Setting c equal to 1 in certain systems of units is related to the theory of relativity as it highlights the fundamental role of the speed of light in this theory. It also allows for a more elegant and simplified representation of relativistic equations.

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