Why wouldn't the LHC break on queue?

[Stanwyck66]

Just watching the live feed from the LHC and as if the black hole it was meant to create was speaking to us, it broke on queue. Seriously..is this thing not the biggest piece of junk ever invented? Obviously it is complicated beyond the scope of this forum..but with scientists studying it for decades and billions of dollars in investment wouldn't they require some sort of reassurance this thing will actually WORK?!

 

[russ_watters]

It does work and it doesn't create a black hole. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[anubis01]

still probably not as bad as when the Hubble telescope was first launched and produced very blurry images due to the mirror being to flat at the edges by 2.2 microns. The fact of the matter is the bigger the equipment=more flaws

 

[MotoH]

LOL

There was a power surge in the magnets. It has happened in every particle accelerator. They dumped both beams, started again and beam 2 acted up, so they dropped beam 2 and started up again, and had stable beams ready for collisions at 7TeV combined. That is hugely successful! They are the fastest accelerator on Earth now (after breaking their previous record).

New physics is on the horizon (in 1 to 2 years. . .)

 

[ZapperZ]

Just watching the live feed from the LHC and as if the black hole it was meant to create was speaking to us, it broke on queue. Seriously..is this thing not the biggest piece of junk ever invented? Obviously it is complicated beyond the scope of this forum..but with scientists studying it for decades and billions of dollars in investment wouldn't they require some sort of reassurance this thing will actually WORK?!

I work at a 18 MeV electron accelerator. It took us months from the moment we had all the parts installed and under vacuum before we even get to see the first electron bunch going all the way through. And this is only 19 MeV and a linear accelerator to boot! It is NEVER easy during a start up. Even the Tevatron had quite a setback in the beginning. You just don't hear about it because it wasn't as covered as the LHC. But it doesn't mean all these particle colliders do not experience the same type of problems. And we fully expect the LHC to have even more difficulties in the beginning because it is going into an uncharted territory. So give them a break already!

And as of this morning (US time), it IS working and colliding beam at 7 TeV!

And oh, one more thing. This "junk" has already produced papers.

Zz.

 

[MotoH]

http://meltronx.com/lhclite/index.html"

This is such an exciting time, even though the LHC will be looking for already known particles.

 

[rhody]

Stanwyck66,

If you really want to learn about what the LHC is and does, take a look at Jal's thread, posts #95 and greater https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=251509&page=5".

It may give you a better appreciation for the science involved.

Rhody...

 

[mgb_phys]

I work at a 18 MeV electron accelerator. It took us months from the moment we had all the parts installed and under vacuum

From my experience I'm amazed they managed to get the thing under vacuum.

Although I suppose that's easier with bigger systems? The length of joints and O rings goes up linearly but the volume is cubed?

 

[Gokul43201]

The timing of this thread is rather ironic.

This just in: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8593780.stm

Scientists working on the European machine have smashed beams of protons together at energies that are 3.5 times higher than previously achieved.

Tuesday's milestone marks the beginning of work that could lead to the discovery of fundamental new physics.

There was cheering and applause in the LHC control room as the first collisions were confirmed.

These seven-trillion-electronvolt (TeV) collisions have initiated 18-24 months of intensive investigations at the LHC.

See also: http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2010/PR07.10E.html

Webcasts: http://webcast.cern.ch/lhcfirstphysics/

 

[DaveC426913]

Although I suppose that's easier with bigger systems? The length of joints and O rings goes up linearly but the volume is cubed?

I see where youre going but intuitively, this can't be right. It suggests it would be easier to keep a vacuum in a 50 gallon drum than in a pop can.

 

[DaveC426913]

...it broke on queue...

What does this mean?

Oh, I see. You mean it broke "on cue". As if it broke when commanded to do so - i.e. at the worst possible time.

 

[ZapperZ]

From my experience I'm amazed they managed to get the thing under vacuum.

Although I suppose that's easier with bigger systems? The length of joints and O rings goes up linearly but the volume is cubed?

These things are typically under UHV conditions, so I doubt that they'll use O-rings, more like all-metal seals and valves (we certainly do).

The actual cross-section of the vacuum pipe is actually quite small. It is just long. So if you have, say, ion pumps liberally installed every few feet, it will be expensive, but relatively trivial to get good vacuum, at least, in the 10^-10 Torr region.

Zz.

 

[zomgwtf]

I agree with Zz, in fact I was going to post pretty much the exact same thing (not from personal experience).

I recall the scientists commenting that they were EXPECTING there to be minor hitches in getting the LHC operational and there were. The LHC is so massive though that minor hitches in systems or operation take an extremely long time to fix and make the system fully operational again. That doesn't mean that the system isn't operational, because I'm pretty sure that they have used it and it's already started pumping out a plethora of new papers in various fields.

It won't create a black hole where did you get that information from?

 

[Borek]

It won't create a black hole where did you get that information from?

Where do you live? Everyone knows LHC will produce a black hole that is going to swallow whole Earth in one gulp.

 

[humanino]

Where do you live? Everyone knows LHC will produce a black hole that is going to eat whole Earth in one gulp.

I guess, now that it is running, it is ok to spread confusion jokingly like this

 

[lisab]

Where do you live? Everyone knows LHC will produce a black hole that is going to eat whole Earth in one gulp.

Maybe it did, and we're all on the other side now.

I didn't feel a thing - it was painless.

 

[Borek]

 

[humanino]

Some people have said about the LHC physics day "it's about time". I suggest we wait until we are beyond the black hole horizon and exclaim "it's about space".

 

[DaveC426913]

Man, Google Earth is really up-to-date these days...

 

[Vanadium 50]

The actual cross-section of the vacuum pipe is actually quite small. It is just long. So if you have, say, ion pumps liberally installed every few feet, it will be expensive, but relatively trivial to get good vacuum, at least, in the 10^-10 Torr region

Easier still. The whole thing is cryogenic. Pump it to moderate vacuum and then let everything freeze out.

 

[MotoH]

The CMS collisions were 3mm off of center of the 15m diameter detector. That is a pretty amazing feat!

 

[SheldonCooper]

Rhody, good to see you posting again. Was worried about U. What do you think of the great LHC success today? I think that the implications for hard science will be only eclipsed by the implications for soft science, such as philosohy etc. Just as Capernicus and Gallileo ushered us out of the dark ages into the enlightened period, I think that the contributions of LHC will do the same for current generations. A new era has begun.

 

[rhody]

"[URL

Rhody, good to see you posting again. Was worried about U. What do you think of the great LHC success today? I think that the implications for hard science will be only eclipsed by the implications for soft science, such as philosohy etc. Just as Capernicus and Gallileo ushered us out of the dark ages into the enlightened period, I think that the contributions of LHC will do the same for current generations. A new era has begun.

Ohhh, things can only go downhill, fast from here... e-mail me offline please, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Cooper" , or whatever your name really is, please, for God's sake, behave yourself on PF !

Rhody... :uhh: :grumpy: :