Will religion always be with us?

[snoopies622]

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

 

[mgb_phys]

God knows !

 

[Mattara]

There is actually some literature on the evolutionary origins of religion by people like Boyer, Altran and Dennett, among others, that could be worth reading. In their view, evolution has primed our brains to be seekers of intentionality, even where none exist. Better to err on the side of caution and mistake non-intentional things for intentional things (and at most spend some extra energy) than do the opposite and risk dying, or so the general (slightly caricatured here) argument goes.

 

[Astronuc]

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

Is one referring to religion or theology? Religion and theology have been around for several millenia. There is no indication they are disappearing.

 

[snoopies622]

Thanks for the references, Mattara. That is an interesting idea and it's new to me.

Is one referring to religion or theology?

What's the difference?

 

[Hurkyl]

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

Could be truth too.

I would like to remind you that our guidelines on religious discussion:

Discussions that assert the a priori truth or falsity of religious dogmas and belief systems ... will not be tolerated.​

 

[snoopies622]

Discussions that assert the a priori truth or falsity of religious dogmas and belief systems ... will not be tolerated.

Yes, I was a little worried about that. I now wish I had chosen a more neutral title like, "will religion always be with us?" If anyone knows how to change the title of a thread, please feel free. I just wanted to know what the current thinking was on this matter and I'm not a psychologist, anthropologist, etc.

 

[Astronuc]

What's the difference?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theology

religion -
1 (a) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (b) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


By 1b, 2 and 3, theology (specifically a belief in a god or gods) is not necessarily part of religion. So an atheist or agnostic can be religious or have religion.


theology - 1. the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world

2. a theological theory or system, e.g., a belief in a god or gods.


Looking at etymology of religion: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back - in other words religion can provide a moral constraint (self-restraint) on one's behavior.

 

[WhoWee]

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

If it's "built-in" to the human brain, "it" might be fear of being alone or wanting something to believe in, or to belong to a group (which could be different than being alone).

I've always thought of religion as that thing which can "fill the cup" - if the cup needs filled. I'm sure someone will quickly point out that knowledge and discovery can also fill the cup - to which I agree, but so can hate, despair, and extreme intolerance.

 

[Galteeth]

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

Be careful; you may be assuming a false dichotomy here. It is very rare for humans to develop in the absence of other humans.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think it will always be with us. I think it is human to seek meaning to existence. And I think seeking meaning to existence leads to religion.

Note that there is no comment on whether this is a good or bad thing.

 

[Galteeth]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theology

religion -
1 (a) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (b) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


By 1b, 2 and 3, theology (specifically a belief in a god or gods) is not necessarily part of religion. So an atheist or agnostic can be religious or have religion.


theology - 1. the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world

2. a theological theory or system, e.g., a belief in a god or gods.


Looking at etymology of religion: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back - in other words religion can provide a moral constraint (self-restraint) on one's behavior.

1 and 3 are really different things.

 

[Phrak]

"will religion always be with us?"

Yes. And constantly reinvented, in daily evolution, using every media of communication.

Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?

Is this a multiply choice question where I only get to choose the best answer rather than right one?

 

[Mattara]

Here is something that could be interesting, although a few months old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html

Polls show that the ranks of atheists are growing. The American Religious Identification Survey, a major study released last month, found that those who claimed “no religion” were the only demographic group that grew in all 50 states in the last 18 years.

Nationally, the “nones” in the population nearly doubled, to 15 percent in 2008 from 8 percent in 1990. In South Carolina, they more than tripled, to 10 percent from 3 percent. Not all the “nones” are necessarily committed atheists or agnostics, but they make up a pool of potential supporters.

Their terminology is a bit sloppy here, so assume that they mean non-religious non-theists, when they say "atheists". Perhaps this is merely a temporary wobble.

 

[sdoug041]

I think people will slowly start changing their beliefs as they realize beliefs can't be chosen. I don't think beliefs are a choice. Beliefs should be based on our worldview, facts, evidence, and reasoning.
I can give a quick demonstration on why it's silly to blindly choose beliefs: I want you to believe in Allah for 5 seconds, then I want you to believe that you're a billionaire, then tell us what it was like.
It would be ridiculous to "believe" your a billionaire when there is no evidence to support it. Where's the cars? Where's the all the bling? Where is the mansion?
I could say, "there is a kettle orbitting the sun right now that can;t be detected or seen in any way." You probably wouldn't believe it until there was some evidence to support that claim.

Anyway, I think institutionalized religion will die out over the next 100 years as science sheds more and more light on where we came from.

 

[WhoWee]

I think people will slowly start changing their beliefs as they realize beliefs can't be chosen. I don't think beliefs are a choice. Beliefs should be based on our worldview, facts, evidence, and reasoning.
I can give a quick demonstration on why it's silly to blindly choose beliefs: I want you to believe in Allah for 5 seconds, then I want you to believe that you're a billionaire, then tell us what it was like.
It would be ridiculous to "believe" your a billionaire when there is no evidence to support it. Where's the cars? Where's the all the bling? Where is the mansion?
I could say, "there is a kettle orbitting the sun right now that can;t be detected or seen in any way." You probably wouldn't believe it until there was some evidence to support that claim.

Anyway, I think institutionalized religion will die out over the next 100 years as science sheds more and more light on where we came from.

I thought the case for Evolution was already pretty strong - yet the debate continues.

I think religion is puhed aside during periods of prosperity and embraced during tough economic or uncertain times.

If most of the world's problems can be solved in the next 100 years, the religious movements may lose support.

However, if there are difficult times ahead, like-minded people tend to herd together.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think people will slowly start changing their beliefs as they realize beliefs can't be chosen. I don't think beliefs are a choice.

There are too many foregone conclusions in your statements for them to have validity.

What are you talking about 'beliefs can't be chosen'? You assume people are having their religions thrust upon them?

Beliefs should be based on our worldview, facts, evidence, and reasoning.

What is our 'worldview' but the things we've learned from our parents and peers?

What is a belief but something we hold whether or not we have evidence?

It would be ridiculous to "believe" your a billionaire when there is no evidence to support it. Where's the cars? Where's the all the bling? Where is the mansion?

This is a spurious analogy. Religion does not occur in a vacuum; it is a community phenomenon.

It would not be so ridiculous to believe someone is a billionaire if your parents and peers raised you to believe they are a billionaire.

I could say, "there is a kettle orbitting the sun right now that can;t be detected or seen in any way." You probably wouldn't believe it until there was some evidence to support that claim.

I might give it some serious consideration if a third of the population of the planet were telling me so.

Anyway, I think institutionalized religion will die out over the next 100 years as science sheds more and more light on where we came from.

Lack of evidence of our origins is not in short supply; we have plenty enough. Beliefs are beliefs.

 

[arildno]

Well, I think belief in some form of personal immortality is more entrenched psychically than belief in some godly beings.

For example, there have been belief systems wit concepts of P.I but no God to speak of, but I am unaware of belief systems of God that does not include some belied in (potential) PI as well.

 

[DaveC426913]

... I am unaware of belief systems of God that does not include some belied in (potential) PI as well.

Judaism?

 

[snoopies622]

"Is it built into the human brain or merely a cultural phenomenon?"

Be careful; you may be assuming a false dichotomy here. It is very rare for humans to develop in the absence of other humans.

Good point.

Maybe this is a question that cannot be approached in an experimental way. How does one apply the scientific method to a nature-vs-nuture question when it comes to people? I doubt it's possible (or ethical) to create a society that's completely cut off from all other human contact and see if - after a few generations - they make a religion or two. (And in any case the results wouldn't be conclusive since the initial members would already be prejudiced one way or the other and would not be able to avoid passing this on, and who knows how long it takes for religion to come about in the first place? Maybe it needs a thousand years of incubation to appear in a form we would recognize. etc.)

 

[arildno]

Judaism?

Oh dear! Forgot that one!

Doesn't mean much for the overall distribution of attitudes, though.

 

[DaveC426913]

How does one apply the scientific method to a nature-vs-nuture question when it comes to people? I doubt it's possible (or ethical) to create a society that's completely cut off from all other human contact and see if - after a few generations - they make a religion or two.

That's why we study isolated races and tribes - to see what things appear to have evolved in parallel.

 

[arildno]

As for evidence-based beliefs and beliefs held without evidence, according to a new study, they seem to have the same neural underpinnings:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0007272

 

[Galteeth]

That's why we study isolated races and tribes - to see what things appear to have evolved in parallel.

But you can't really study a human isolated completely from society.

 

[Astronuc]

But you can't really study a human isolated completely from society.

Except for those rare cases of individuals (children) being raised by wild animals. The children lack human languange and engage in behavior atypical of humans.

 

[Galteeth]

Except for those rare cases of individuals (children) being raised by wild animals. The children lack human languange and engage in behavior atypical of humans.

Well, if those children develop religous beliefs in the jungle, that would be your answer. Although they couldn't really articulate them. And I suppose it could be theorized that the wolves influenced them in some way.


My point is, it's sort of absurd to ask "nature or nurture?" I don't see that it is especially meaningful to draw a distinction.

 

[DaveC426913]

My point is, it's sort of absurd to ask "nature or nurture?" I don't see that it is especially meaningful to draw a distinction.

Socialized-versus-entirely-isloted is not the only place nature-versus-nurture can be studied. People develop all sorts of personal traits in spite of the way they were raised. Orphaned people develop traits that align with their biological roots rather than their custodial upbringing. Both are places where nature might override nurture.

 

[Mattara]

What are you talking about 'beliefs can't be chosen'? You assume people are having their religions thrust upon them?

How do you think that religious beliefs are spread from parents to children? Why do you suppose that a lot of people have the same religion as their parents?

 

[snoopies622]

My point is, it's sort of absurd to ask "nature or nurture?" I don't see that it is especially meaningful to draw a distinction.

To me that seems like the central question. If it's only nuture it could be - in principle at least - ended in a generation. If it's nature, we'll be stuck with it for a much longer time. How to go about finding the answer is the problem.

Oh, and thanks for the link arildno. I'm still reading the paper.

 

[alxm]

You have to be wary of basing conclusions on religion-society from experiences of the USA alone, because the US is something of a statistical outpoint when it comes to religion. The USA has a relatively large number of believers compared to most developed western nations, and those believers are also more zealous and frankly, more fundamentalist.

The USA doesn't compare to most Western nations when it comes to belief in evolution, it's about the same as Turkey. Unlike the rest, the USA is alone in having an increasing number who disbelieve evolution.

I think religion might always be with us, just as poverty will. By which I mean you can still have a lot less of it, and in less extreme forms.

Anyway, obviously when 45% of Americans go to church on a regular basis and only 4% of Swedes do, it's obviously primarily a cultural thing.

 

[GeekGuru]

I say yes. People, as a whole, will always look for a way to 'explain' unnatural events - such as the Greeks and Romans used to their gods and goddesses, along with the mythology, to explain why many things happen the way they do. Even if there is no God, people will always try to create one, because they feel it is better to believe in something rather than nothing.

 

[snoopies622]

People, as a whole, will always look for a way to 'explain' unnatural events...

What's an unnatural event?

 

[DaveC426913]

What's an unnatural event?

Anything unexplainable.

Have you been skipping the meetings? :tongue2:

 

[Galteeth]

A recent book on the subject:

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/11/the_faith_instinct_how_religio.php

 

[Phrak]

A recent book on the subject:

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/11/the_faith_instinct_how_religio.php

An easily accessible source in the study of the emergence of religion is contemporary Gaiaism--or Environmentalism, or nature worship, or whatever you wish to call it. Just hang around and watch it happen. At this stage it consists of a set of widening ethical beliefs.