William Ayers: What's the Real Story?

[LowlyPion]

I wouldn't say it was immature; carrying out bombing campaigns like that can certainly achieve political goals.

Of course it was immature. It wasn't well thought out. It was as much as anything an expression of frustration that grew from the widely held belief among younger people at the time that the Government was the enemy.

The Government was drafting and sending thousands to their deaths in the meat-grinder of Viet Nam. It was shooting at dissenters with live rounds. It was actively investigating and harassing all dissent.

It was radical action to be sure, and as I have said not something that I agree with, but I think calling it terrorism of any particular flavor, most especially, in the more modern sense of the World Trade Center (the epitome of symbolic terrorism) or Oklahoma City is wholly counter productive to any discussion to attempt to so over-exaggerate and emotionally charge what Ayers was doing in order to somehow besmirch Obama for knowing him or working with him on goals (inner city development and education) that none of these nutballs slinging the mud even disagree with in the first place.

 

[LowlyPion]

Irrelevant,...

It's not at all irrelevant. The Government was committing crimes against its own people as well. It was pursuing a course of aggression in Southeast Asia, for tenuous and unsupportable motives of foreign policy.

It was that old Domino Theory of the Cold War. That nations would fall like dominoes. It was as though somewhere in our State Department was a game of Risk laid out on a table and the dice was being rolled while thousands perished.

You can't effectively assess Ayers' acts out of the context of the times, as those acts were in response to what was happening at the time.

 

[LowlyPion]

This is what annoys me most about this forum - people throw around words without any regard at all to their actual meaning.

... Ayers was a member of an organization that advocated the violent overthrow of the US government and committed acts of physical violence not just against property but against people.

And since you are so against throwing around in this forum unsupported characterizations, what violence did Ayers actually commit against other people? Are you relying on the deaths of the three people that killed themselves making a bomb?

 

[LowlyPion]

The WU did hurt people and they did it on purpose. In addition, the accident that killed 3 members and effectively ended the overt actions of the group was preparation for a planned act of mass murder. So they were a relatively incompetent terrorist group, but a terrorist group nonetheless.

There is no actual evidence of that I have ever seen.

That is the propaganda of your Federal Government, the same Federal Government that lied about issues like body counts in Viet Nam and acts of domestic espionage and illegal acts to influence elections in order to remain in power.

 

[LowlyPion]

That wasn't their only act. They also firebombed the house of a NY State Supreme Court justice.

There is no evidence of that having had anything at all to do with the Weather Underground.

You act like there weren't other groups that hadn't been motivated to resist Government activities. (Never mind that there was a disproportionate number of blacks that were getting drafted and killed in Viet Nam?)

In the case of the NY Supreme Court Justice's house never mind that it occurred at the time of Black Panther Party trials in NY. Being so eager to paint Obama with a guilt of acquaintance with William Ayers, I suppose you are as eager to paint the Weather Underground with the same brush used to paint the Black Panther Party?

You can read about the incident here:
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0430jm.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Irrelevant, because: Exactly. Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, they don't, but if everyone else was wronging more than you, that makes you...less evil?

He is a citizen who supported and probably got away with crimes and wishes he had had the stones to do more. That makes him a bad person.

The first sentence above would just as well describe Tubman, King, Parks, Mandela and a whole host of other revolutionaries that broke the law and didn't repent it - all bad people.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

The first sentence above would just as well describe Tubman, King, Parks, Mandela and a whole host of other revolutionaries that broke the law and didn't repent it - all bad people.

I don't know to what degree Ayers himself was a bad person, that's a qualitative judgement and I'd have to know much more about him than I do. But you have specifically chosen people reknowned for their non-violent protest there to compare him to. None of those people said things like http://books.google.com/books?id=eEXERPD02UYC&pg=PA188&dq="kill+all+rich+people"+ayers" or served as the spokesman for an organization that at one point was constructing nail bombs with the obvious intent to kill many people. Diana Oughton, his own girlfriend, was participating in the manufacture of the nail bombs, so I would have difficulty believing that he could plausibly deny knowledge of those plans. Though perhaps her death and the death of his other friends changed his perspective on violence as a means to achieve his goals.

(If any of those nonviolent protesters did that stuff in some case I don't know about, I think that would be good support for an argument that said individual is a bad person.)

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[CaptainQuasar]

That is the propaganda of your Federal Government, the same Federal Government that lied about issues like body counts in Viet Nam...

In Vietnam the suspicion is that the U.S. military inflated estimates of North Vietnamese killed to make it seem more damaging, since we lost the war.

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[Evo]

I have to say that I condemn random acts of violence against innocent people as a form of protest. It's the height of idiocy. No excuse for it. None.

 

[Proton Soup]

hadn't Ayers left the organization when those people got killed making the nail bomb?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

"You dishonor the victims of real genocides" is what I was referring to. Yeah, I'm sure being told that you don't have the honor in death that someone else does because not everybody of your race died is no big deal.

Oh, I get it. You're pretending that I said that the North Vietnamese who died defending their country from a U.S. invasion don't have any honor in death. Because I said their deaths weren't part of a genocide, I guess? I don't think anyone will believe that. Particularly anyone who knows what genocide is.

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[CaptainQuasar]

hadn't Ayers left the organization when those people got killed making the nail bomb?

You really ought to at least make a check of somewhere like Wikipedia before you make claims like this; it's how rumors start. The Pentagon bombing happened two years after the explosion in Greenwich Village. According to a cited quotation on Wikipedia from one of Ayer's own books he knew how much it cost to manufacture the Pentagon bomb, so it seems pretty likely that he was involved in that. (Which his article on Wikipedia does assert.)

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[Proton Soup]

You really ought to at least make a check of somewhere like Wikipedia before you make claims like this; it's how rumors start. The Pentagon bombing happened two years after the explosion in Greenwich Village. According to a cited quotation on Wikipedia from one of Ayer's own books he knew how much it cost to manufacture the Pentagon bomb, so it seems pretty likely that he was involved in that. (Which his article on Wikipedia does assert.)

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that's a pretty tenuous link, knowing something.

edit: actually, i could care less. what's any of this got to do with Obama? i mean other than trying to smear Obama and perhaps incite some idiots to try and assassinate him like they did with Kennedy? is that what you want? i think it is.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

that's a pretty tenuous link, knowing something.

Okay, this is just getting silly. First you say that he wasn't part of the Weathermen any more, now you say that he was part of the Weathermen and knew about plans for mass murder and just didn't stop them? You're simply demonstrating that you don't know anything salient about him and are defending him blindly.

Look, if you want to forgive him for it, go ahead and forgive him. Heck, Ronald Reagan went and laid a wreath on the graves of a bunch of Nazi S.S. soldiers in the eighties, forgiving them for way worse things. And they weren't even Americans! But there's no point in pretending Ayers didn't participate in that stuff knowingly and willingly.

edit: actually, i could care less. what's any of this got to do with Obama? i mean other than trying to smear Obama and perhaps incite some idiots to try and assassinate him like they did with Kennedy? is that what you want? i think it is.

Go back and read what I've written in this thread.

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[russ_watters]

as for the whole McCain/Ayers thing, i know you think I'm siding with Ayers, but I'm not.

Allright, I'm out of the McCain thing. This isn't a McCain/Ayers thread. It's an Ayers thread. What you think of McCain isn't relevant to a discussion about Ayers - it's an intentional distraction.

 

[russ_watters]

I think so. You said that two wrongs do not make a right and I was pointing out that falsifying intelligence and invading Iraq constitute two wrongs.

Ok, well that's a pretty bizarre non sequitur. I have no comment to make on it.

 

[Proton Soup]

Okay, this is just getting silly. First you say that he wasn't part of the Weathermen any more, now you say that he was part of the Weathermen and knew about plans for mass murder and just didn't stop them? You're simply demonstrating that you don't know anything salient about him and are defending him blindly.

Look, if you want to forgive him for it, go ahead and forgive him. Heck, Ronald Reagan went and laid a wreath on the graves of a bunch of Nazi S.S. soldiers in the eighties, forgiving them for way worse things. But there's no point in pretending he didn't participate in that stuff knowingly and willingly.



Go back and read what I've written in this thread.

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i do forgive him, just as i forgive McCain. that is kind of the point of a lot that i wrote here. i don't see a big difference between the two, other than McCain actually killed a lot of innocent people and when confronted by his conscience didn't do anything about it because he was afraid of the consequences. Ayers actually had the courage of his convictions.

 

[russ_watters]

It's not at all irrelevant...

You can't effectively assess Ayers' acts out of the context of the times, as those acts were in response to what was happening at the time.

The law does not say that treason and murder are ok if you really believe in your cause. It is irrelevant.

And since you are so against throwing around in this forum unsupported characterizations, what violence did Ayers actually commit against other people? Are you relying on the deaths of the three people that killed themselves making a bomb?

Please read carefully what I say. I do not throw around unsupported characterizations. I was specific and I meant nothing more and nothing less than what I said: Ayers was a member of a terrorist organization who'se stated goal was to wage war against the US. Whether he actually planted any of the bombs himself affects only the particular type of crime. And again, if he had been more successful - as he wishes he would have been - he'd probably still be in jail today, if not executed for murder or treason.

 

[Proton Soup]

Allright, I'm out of the McCain thing. This isn't a McCain/Ayers thread. It's an Ayers thread. What you think of McCain isn't relevant to a discussion about Ayers - it's an intentional distraction.

Ayers was protesting the very thing McCain was doing. McCain is the one that brought the whole subject up. but if you'd rather, we can discuss what this Ayers thread is really about.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/wantedfortreason.jpg

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Ok, well that's a pretty bizarre non sequitur. I have no comment to make on it.

Oh, okay. Well, in some other thread when you entertain two wrongs making a right, I'll be sure to refer you back to what you said here. (It definitely was a non-sequitur, I just thought it was a humorous observation.)

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[CaptainQuasar]

Proton Soup, you shouldn't try to prove that black is white because of where your sympathies lie. No one is going to believe or respect anything you say about McCain now because you have demonstrated yourself so ready to move forward on incorrect or misleading facts related to Ayers.

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[russ_watters]

Ayers was protesting the very thing McCain was doing. McCain is the one that brought the whole subject up. but if you'd rather, we can discuss what this Ayers thread is really about.

Actually, it was Hillary Clinton who first brought it to light - why aren't we talking about her? Oh, tha'ts right: It isn't relevant!

 

[russ_watters]

Being so eager to paint Obama with a guilt of acquaintance with William Ayers...

I shouldn't have to clarify again, but: I have never mentioned Obama in this thread! This isn't about Obama, it isn't about Clinton, and it isn't about McCain. It is about Ayers.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Funny thing, Russ, you seemed to completely ignore Ayers comments that he didn't support hurting more innocent people. I thought that was the basis of your argument - that he would do it again.

 

[russ_watters]

edit: actually, i could care less. what's any of this got to do with Obama?

Nothing. But you are the one who brought up Obama. That right there was the first I used his name in this thread! You are the one bringing up all these irrelevancies to try to derail the thread.

 

[Evo]

Ayers was protesting the very thing McCain was doing. McCain is the one that brought the whole subject up. but if you'd rather, we can discuss what this Ayers thread is really about.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/wantedfortreason.jpg

Is[/URL] this flyer something Ayers made?

 

[russ_watters]

Funny thing, Russ, you seemed to completely ignore Ayers comments that he didn't support hurting more innocent people.

I must have - can you point me to the quote? The Wiki article you posted doesn't say that.

 

[Proton Soup]

Proton Soup, you shouldn't try to prove that black is white because of where your sympathies lie. No one is going to believe or respect anything you say about McCain now because you have demonstrated yourself so ready to move forward on incorrect or misleading facts related to Ayers.

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you mean the way you and others likewise want to mislead other wrt Obama? no one is going to believe you now.

 

[LowlyPion]

The law does not say that treason and murder are ok if you really believe in your cause. It is irrelevant.

What murder? What treason?

You vilify him for dissent?

He murdered a statue? And a steam pipe? Otherwise I don't see that you have connected him to anything else. Or is it more of this McCarthyesque acquaintance makes you guilty of something?

And btw the murder of students at Kent State was what? National Policy?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I'm going to be bold and say that we've established that Ayers was a member of a terrorist organization and now are discussing whether or not he's a bad guy, it still seems to me it's possible he simply let his ideology overwhelm his sense of right and wrong. (But if anyone disagrees with the statement that he was a member of a terrorist organization, feel free to challenge that of course.)

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[Proton Soup]

Is this flyer something Ayers made?

no, it was an intent to incite violence against the POTUS, just as people are now trying to do so with Ayers. it's to point out what this sort of misleading propaganda is designed to do.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/wantedfortreason.htm

...A comparable incident was the appearance of the "Wanted for Treason" handbill on the streets of Dallas 1 to 2 days before President Kennedy's arrival. These handbills bore a reproduction of a front and profile photograph of the President and set forth a series of inflammatory charges against him.490 Efforts to locate the author and the lithography printer of the handbill at first met with evasive responses 491 and refusals to furnish information.492 Robert A. Surrey was eventually identified as the author of the handbill.493 Surrey, a 38-year- old printing salesman employed by Johnson Printing Co. of Dallas, Tex., has been closely associated with General Walker for several years in his political and business activities.494 He is president of American Eagle Publishing Co. of Dallas, in which he is a partner with General Walker.495 Its office and address is the post office box of Johnson Printing Co. Its assets consist of cash and various printed materials composed chiefly of General Walker's political and promotional literature, 496 all of which is storm at General Walker's headquarters.497

Surrey prepared the text for the handbill and apparently used Johnson Printing Co. facilities to set the type and print a proof.498 Surrey induced Klause, a salesman employed by Lettercraft Printing Co. of Dallas,499 whom Surrey had met when both were employed at Johnson Printing Co.,500 to print the handbill "on the side." 501 According to Klause, Surrey contacted him initially approximately 2 or 2 1/2 weeks prior to November 22.502 About a week prior to November 22, Surrey delivered to Klause two slick paper magazine prints of photographs of a front view and profile of President Kennedy,503 together with the textual page proof.504 Klause was unable to make the photographic negative of the prints needed to prepare the photographic printing plate,505 so that he had this feature of the job done at a local shop.506 Klause then arranged the halftone front and profile representations of President Kennedy at the top of the textual material he had received from Surrey so as to simulate a "man wanted" police placard. He then made a photographic printing plate of the picture.507 During the night, he and his wife surreptitiously printed approximately 5,000 copies on Lettercraft Printing Co. offset printing equipment without the knowledge of his employers.508 The next day he arranged with Surrey a meeting place, and delivered the handbills.509 Klause's charge for the printing of the handbills was, including expenses, $60.510

At the outset of the investigation Klause stated to Federal agents that he did not know the name of his customer, whom he incorrectly described; 511 he did say, however, that the customer did not resemble either Oswald or Ruby.512 Shortly before he appeared before the Commission, Klause disclosed Surrey's identity.513 He explained that no record of the transaction had been made because "he saw a chance to make a few dollars on the side." 514

Klause's testimony receives some corroboration from Bernard Weissman's testimony that he saw a copy of one of the "Wanted for Treason" handbills on the floor of General Walker's station wagon shortly after November 22.515 Other details of the manner in which the handbills were printed have also been verified.516 Moreover, Weissman testified that neither he nor any of his associates had anything to do with the handbill or were ,acquainted with Surrey, Klause, Lettercraft Printing Co., or Johnson Printing Co. 517 Klause and Surrey, as well as General Walker, testified that they were unacquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and had not heard of him prior to the afternoon of November 22.518 The Commission has found no evidence of any connection between those responsible for the handbill and Lee Harvey Oswald or the assassination.

Source: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page298.php

 

[LowlyPion]

Actually, it was Hillary Clinton who first brought it to light - why aren't we talking about her? Oh, tha'ts right: It isn't relevant!

See we agree about some things anyway.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

you mean the way you and others likewise want to mislead other wrt Obama? no one is going to believe you now.

Okay, man, you're in total conspiracy theory mode here. If I'm on some secret mission to smear Obama's name, by my statements in this thread and the other things I've said about Obama on PF it's looking like I've probably failed my mission. Not to mention, y'know, I voted for him and he got elected.

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[Proton Soup]

Okay, man, you're in total conspiracy theory mode here. If I'm on some secret mission to smear Obama's name, by my statements in this thread and the other things I've said about Obama on PF it's looking like I've probably failed my mission. Not to mention, y'know, I voted for him and he got elected.

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good for you, so did i.

 

[LowlyPion]

I'm going to be bold and say that we've established that Ayers was a member of a terrorist organization ...

You're speaking for yourself and certainly not me as I don't see that within the context of the time that this ad hoc radical dissent rose to the status of "terrorist organization". This is the way that the Government of course would be happy to portray them to justify their own unlawful acts targeted at eliminating dissent.

These were not terrorists. No Timothy McVeighs and no al Queada folks these. They were disaffected youth that had been alienated by a government that was out of control and playing fast and loose with the lives of its citizens in pursuing ill considered foreign policy agendas.