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News Women's Rights and Sharia Law

  1. Apr 17, 2010 #1
    Would we agree that Shia law is a violation of women's rights and that we suppose women's rights?

    not sure if this should be here or in politics forum.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2010
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  3. Apr 17, 2010 #2

    lisab

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    All I know about how Shiria law is applied, is what I see in the media. And that isn't so good, definitely not in line with how the West sees the role and rights of women. Actually it seems harsh to all humans regardless of gender.

    But I also know how the media distorts and exaggerates things. Western media doesn't give a good picture of how that kind of law affects the people who live under it, really.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2010
  4. Apr 17, 2010 #3
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Ah Shiria thanks.

    I know media companies serve the owners of media companies and so have their biases.

    In talking with Egyptian, male friends who are university educated and world travelers they still believe stoning (of women not men) for adultery to be reasonable.
     
  5. Apr 17, 2010 #4

    lisab

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Of course stoning for adultery seems, well, insane to me. But I know to be careful when dissecting a culture so different - even foreign - to mine. It's very difficult to see the world from such a different point of view.

    For example, I remember reading about a group of Westerners were trying to convince some villagers in rural Africa that female circumcisions should be stopped. Seems a reasonable request, doesn't it? Well the biggest resistance came from the village women! How on Earth these women, who went through it themselves, want to continue to subject their daughters to it...I just don't get it.

    I don't know that culture well enough to understand the women's motivations. Were they being honest? Or were they merely saying what they thought they were supposed to say, according to their culture?

    It gets sticky pretty fast.
     
  6. Apr 18, 2010 #5
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I thought the same way about female circumcision, but then I had a colleague who talked to women who preferred it for aesthetic reasons. She also told me that it doesn't interfere with the ability to orgasm and increases sexual pleasure because women are less ashamed of their bodies and therefore more comfortable.

    She compared it to the practice of male circumcision. She said that if you asked most circumcized men, they would not want to be caught dead with their foreskin still attached. Granted there are more and less extreme variations of female circumcision, but her point was the the concern should be with hygiene, safety, and pain management in the surgery - not with alienating women who approve of or even favor the practice.

    Generally I think you have to reflect on how the media portrays Islam and Muslims and how your reaction to the portrayals are caused by subconscious assumption of your cultural programming. The wearing of head-scarves, for example, has been inflated as a highly visible symbol of female oppression, but I've read that women simply wear head-scarves as an accessory and see it as adding to their appearance.

    The logic that it is oppressive to have to cover your hair if you're female is very similar to the logic of having to cover your breasts on the beach. Some women are aware that bathing suit tops and bras are required due to a cultural assumption that men have the right to be protected from erotic stimulation. Most women probably don't think of it that way, though. They just think that it would make them feel uncomfortable to go topless or not wear a bra. This is the exact same logic as covering up your hair with a head scarf but it gets inflated because it has yet to be accepted by some people as just as normal as breast-coverings.
     
  7. Apr 18, 2010 #6
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Some people probably think Tiger Woods and Jesse James should be stoned, and if they don't they certainly don't think universal public humiliation is too strong. When I read the Scarlet Letter, the teacher told us that it was a story of how oppressive puritan treatment of adulterous women was, by subjecting them to public ridicule and humiliation. The closest I've seen to any public humiliation for the women involved in these affairs is the GF of Jesse James who publicly apologized to Sandra Bullock and said he lied to her too, or something like that - I get mixed up with these sex scandals. Anyway, the point is that people find it easy to judge cultures that they see as foreign or different, but they aren't even aware of the cultural ramifications of things that are happening right in front of their noses.
     
  8. Apr 18, 2010 #7
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Are we talking about Sharia law? I don't think there is a Shia Islam law per-say.
     
  9. Apr 18, 2010 #8
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Yes. I acknowledge my spelling mistake in post #3.
     
  10. Apr 18, 2010 #9
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    This circumcised male finds his genital mutilation completely unacceptable.

    On other threads there are plenty of men saying we must fight around the world to force human rights as seen by us on them. It is interesting that none of those folks have joined us here on this thread.
     
  11. Apr 18, 2010 #10
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Personally, I'm not a fan of unnecessary cosmetic surgeries, but I have a hard time saying that other people shouldn't elect for them. When it comes to minors, though, there is a good argument that they shouldn't be subjected to them until they are mature enough to issue informed consent. The problem is that tradition is violently defended by people, especially when it comes to their right to subject children to various forms of violence, for some reason.
     
  12. Apr 18, 2010 #11

    russ_watters

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Well I'll weigh in as one of those guys....but I don't find anything particularly useful about this thread. It doesn't seem to have much of a point to me.....until this issue...
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2010
  13. Apr 18, 2010 #12

    russ_watters

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I find it very hard to believe that it could really enhance pleasure as it almost always involves removal of the clitoris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...res:_World_Health_Organization_categorization

    If being ashamed is an issue, then it points to the issue some women preferring it, that makes the issue mostly about cutural pressure, not about physiology. And in any case, that women would have such things to say is a little odd, because women are bound by the culture not enjoy sex - and that's really the purpose of the mutilation! But that's basically would you would expect from people who are brainwashed by an extremist religion/culture. Thus, what is more imporant is the opinion of doctors: there is a reason it is prohibited by the UN and WHO.
    Since there are a lot more men of each than there are women who are "circumcised", and there is much less cultural pressure about the issue, there is a lot more legitimate info to be had on both sides. And as with the above, the opinion of doctors is most important:
    Anyway, the comparison with male circumcision is a little silly because the motive for doing it makes the difference clear: male circumcision is done for reasons of cleanliness. Female "circumcision" is done [mostly] as a means/demonstration of subjugating women.....

    ....and the term is fallacious anyway, as the procedures are not analagous. To make them equivalent, men would have to have the whole head of their penis cut off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2010
  14. Apr 18, 2010 #13
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I have read that intact men experience immensely more penile sensation, but I think many circumcised men would consider that more of a liability for premature ejaculation than a reason to lament their circumcision. Plus I wonder why the UN and WHO don't prohibit male circumcision.
     
  15. Apr 18, 2010 #14
    As an American woman I was very interested in this topic so did some research. I'm 100% for advancing the rights of women and girls from around the globe. The document was very informative. Here is a small section taken from January 29, 2010 -Advancing the Rights of Women and Girls: Keys to a Better Future for Afghanistan . It discusses the Shia Personal Status Law.


    I absolutely agree with the following whether it be here in the U.S. or abroad. I don't care what nationality a person may be or race.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2017
  16. Apr 18, 2010 #15

    russ_watters

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Where did you read that? That's not what the consensus is. I posted a quote saying that the cost/benefit of the issue isn't clear-cut and the wiki contains references to many studies that say there is no clear evidence either way.
    Exactly for the reasons I stated above and in my previous post: Male circumcision is at worst an iffy cost-benefit scenario. That's not something that should be banned, much less worthy of significant effort in eradicating. Female genetal mutiliation, on the other hand, is generally agreed to be a bad thing.
     
  17. Apr 18, 2010 #16

    russ_watters

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    I consider the literacy issue to be a fairly obvious indicator of subjugation.
     
  18. Apr 18, 2010 #17
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I guess since babies cry at everything, crying during circumcision wouldn't count as testimony.

    I've read the argument that foreskin traps pathogens and therefore can put men at higher risk of infection, but I presume that would be the same for labias. If you say that male circumcision isn't a problem, would you also say it wasn't a problem for people to scar or brand the shaft of the penis or pierce the scrotums of babies or children in addition to or in place of circumcision?
     
  19. Apr 18, 2010 #18

    russ_watters

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I'm not sure what the point of that is - just because something is painful, that doesn't have much to do with whether it is good or bad. All surgeries hurt if there is no anesthetic.
    You're misstating the procedure for women. Removing the labia (which would be analagous to male circumcision) isn't what is typically done. Removing the clitoris is.
    I don't know what you are referring to.
     
  20. Apr 19, 2010 #19
    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    I've read there are different variations of female circumcision, including clitorectomy but some that spare the clitoris and remove one or both labia or just the clitoral hood, which would be the equivalent of male circumcision, I believe, since the labia is more like the scrotum, I think. Clitorectomy seems atrocious when compared with castration of the penis, but transsexual surgery removes the penis and does not limit the ability to orgasm, I believe (I'm not completely sure though).

    What I was saying with the scarring/branding of the penile shaft or piercing of the scrotum is that these procedures would be similar in pain to circumcision of the foreskin, so would you defend parents' right to do that to their children too?

    Why isn't pain a reason to recognize something as bad? Cutting hair and fingernails isn't nicer than inflicting cuts and burns? My basis for legitimating hair and fingernail cutting is that it's not physically painful. Some people disagree with the identity effects of cutting hair, especially shaving heads.
     
  21. Apr 19, 2010 #20

    russ_watters

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    Re: Women's Rights and Shia Law

    Descriptions of and prevalence of each is listed in the wiki article I linked. I suggest reading it. What you describe does not appear to be a major fraction of them.
    I don't really know what to say about that. It's so far outside the bounds of what is normal I can't imagine why you think it would be useful in this conversation. And even if I thought it relevant, I wouldn't be willing to stipulate to your claim without evidence to support it.
    What I was saying is that I don't know what "scarring/branding.....or piercing" means.
    Because it isn't. The logic is too obvious to be possible to explain any simpler than I already have.
    You can't just pretend that painful things that are good don't exist. It's like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who show pictures of the Pentagon lawn that don't have airplane parts visible as evidence that there was no airplane...ignoring the fact that there are plenty of pictures that do contain airplane parts. Painful procedures that are beneficial exist. You can't make them go away by refusing to acknowledge their existence!
    Whether hair and fingernail cutting involve pain has very little to do with why they are legitimate. Again, this is a red herring. You can't examine the concept of whether pain is ok unless you look at legitimate procedures that are painful....and you can't do that if you won't even acknowledge the obviousness of their existence!

    So be clear here: do you consider an apendectomy a "legitimate" procedure? Do you recognize that it involves pain (even when anesthetic is used)?

    In any case, this whole line of argument has very little to do with the issue. Circumcision and female genital mutilation can be done with relatively little pain if people want to do it that way. Again, that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not they can be considered legitimate. Whether they are legitimate is based only on the after-effects.
     
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