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Wouldnt free will necesary imply the existence of the soul?

  1. Nov 10, 2003 #1
    since matter and energy always behave the same way so all of our actions could be calculated if having not a soul
    the option of free will would necesary imply the existence of a soul or other else wouldnt exist a soul

    but how do you know you have free will?
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 10, 2003 #2
    isnt the actual theory that theres a mixture of predestination and free will?

    well then there would also be a soul

    i wonder then how many choices we really have in our lifes
  4. Nov 11, 2003 #3


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    Staff: Mentor

    Not according to the Hesienberg Uncertainty Principle. Though your question really isn't a scientific one, the HUP does imply that the universe (including human behavior) isn't completely deterministic.
  5. Dec 9, 2003 #4
    Re: Re: wouldnt free will necesary imply the existence of the soul?

    True, you can always count on a photon to move at light speed all the time, but in a complex system, such as an organism like ourselves, elementary particles are organized into atoms, which are organized into molecules, which are organized into cells, which are organized into organs, which are organized into our body.
    All of the quarks, electrons, bosons, and any other particles in one of your arms will move if a force is applied, such as the contraction of your biceps. This contraction is produced by energy from digestion, and controlled by another organ: the Brain. Therefore, this movement is controlled by forces known to us. So the real question is how physical laws can predict brain function.
    This could prove the existence of a soul, due to the unpredictability of brain waves, BUT emotions, impulses, and thoughts can be 'somewhat' explained by chemicals in the brain, which react according to chemistry, which is made possible by physical laws. For example: When anyone who loves their mother is faced with the death of their mother, the emotion will almost always be sadness. This is a 'form' of predictability. So in reality, the brain is subject to chemical reactions, which are controlled by the laws of physics.
    There is also the concept of temporal independance, which states that due to probability, all events now affect all things at all times, so when i type this P, it affects you tomorrow, alpha centauri, and even Moses. So this could also disprove the existence of free will.
    In conclusion, free will is, as is said in the Matrix, an illusion. The complexity of all the systems involved in making a 'descision' are what creates the confusion. In reality, on the smallest levels, all of our actions are controlled by physical laws. It all depends upon the chemical makeup of your brain, your situation, and such and such. Sorry if I have offended any views of life! Now you feel miniscule and useless, which you are
  6. Dec 9, 2003 #5
    Not that I'm disputing that we have a soul, I'm not. I do believe that we have a soul, and there is a god... but that's somethings else all together.

    But I do believe that human actions can be determined if all the variables where known. Think about your best friend, or someone like that. Then hit them, what would they do? How would you know that? Because you have spent enough time with them to learn there personality and how there emotions affect them.

    There is only uncertainty because we are certian there is.
  7. Dec 10, 2003 #6
    Re: Re: Re: wouldnt free will necesary imply the existence of the soul?

    Firstly, there is something called 'I Think', Memory Parallax? It relates to how the experience of a 'Memory' is formulated as a part only. For instance if you was to try and remember an whole event, say from just 3 seconds ago, then you could only ever achieve a 'part-memory', not a whole. To remember everything from 3 seconds ago will invole a full relative event, and this is Timetravel, the whole experience would involve a 'Replay-in Reality', and thus break all the known laws of Physics,(as an observer you can only experience the effects and not the cause).

    For Moses to have an influence on you typing a 'P', he has to 'think' in a 'forward-in-time' action, and this would also have to be a full blown Future Historical Event?..in that he would have to have the ability to recall all future events that have not yet come to be! this is an information-Memory-Parallax.

    The availability of Memory to any person at any moment in time is based on the fact that you cannot 'Think' and 'Memorize' in the same instant, it is one or the other. If you are thinking of something, you cannot consciously use memory at the same time, and likewise if you are recalling a memory then it is only made up with 'bits' of information, not the full blown event!

    No matter how much you try and use your freewill, I can state with some conviction you cannot influence what I do in the next three seconds, let alone what I actually done 3 seconds ago!
  8. Dec 10, 2003 #7
    Re: Re: Re: Re: wouldnt free will necesary imply the existence of the soul?

    By the way, for those Matrix fans wanting to experience a 'NEO', you would have to accept that there is always an information loss, NEO cannot remember events in full, so the 'slow-motion' sequences from the films (which I greatly admire and enjoy) which show events in SLO-MOTION, are completly the opposite. Events would happen at a greatly increased speed, due to the 'informaiton loss', events would be more like skipping the pages of an illustrated book, and observation would be 'strobe-light-like'. The SLO-MOTION events tells me someone has be adding 'extra-its-from-bits!' which would increase, give an excess amount of information needed for the events to be slooowwwed ddoooown!.
  9. Dec 10, 2003 #8


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    Staff Emeritus
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    Most of nature is inherently a non linear Dynamical system. This mean Chaos, therefore it cannot be completly determined from any set of initial conditions. There can be no predetermination.

    Our brains are inherently quantum mechanical in nature, therefore they cannot be completly determined, once again no Predetermination.

    Predetermination is an egotistical dream of mankind. The universe is not that simple, we now have sufficient understanding, to understand that there is much we cannot predict.
  10. Dec 10, 2003 #9
    Re: Re: Re: Re: wouldnt free will necesary imply the existence of the soul?

    I did not mean this in a way that he can control our tomorrow, but in a probablistic manner, in which the infinite probabilities affect all things at all time, but only on a miniscule level. He would not "remember" affecting you because he cant conciously do it or see the affects. I am speaking of elementary particles, and light emitted from his skin, etc.
    Its like throwing a stone into an infinite pond. The ripples will continue to spread forever, never decreasing in size (assuming no gravity, friction, etc)
    Technically, this is only a theory, so it may be all BS, but even if it is true, you cannot kill moses in any way, nor can he kill you, but infinite probabilities make everything all wacky.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2003
  11. Dec 10, 2003 #10


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    Staff: Mentor

    I don't know that I'd call it "egotistical" but I do find it ironic that people tend to have the issue backwards. People think that science is deterministic and therefore freewill requires a God when in reality, science is NOT deterministic so Fate would require a God.
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