Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Written off Roswell some years ag

  1. Aug 24, 2003 #1

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I had nearly written off Roswell some years ago. In the last couple of years, some evidence has come to light that gets my interest a little. Here is one item for your consideration.

    Please see this handwritten entry by Hoover; page 45 of pdf#1 in the FBI UFO files.
    http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo.htm

    July 15th, 1947; responding to the urging of others for the FBI to stay out of the UFO business, Hoover writes the following:
    Note that this is 7 days after the weather ballon story was released by the military. Comments?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2013
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 24, 2003 #2

    FZ+

    User Avatar

    Hmm... it depends on what was the nature of the "discs" recovered. The current, most likely story was that the object was an observation balloon used to measure yields from Soviet missile tests. This may just be the FBI wanting access to the data discs recovered from the balloon.
     
  4. Aug 24, 2003 #3

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Darn. I made an edit and accidentally deleted a few comments.

    First, I dont think we had data discs in 1947. Do you have anything specific in mind or do you only mean to allude to the possible interpretations of the word "disc".

    Perhaps he meant photographic disc of some sort?

    Why wouldn't Hoover simply want access to the data?

    Next, why would the FBI be involved in a cold war spy projects? This project should not have even been in the FBI's domain.

    I find this remark [Hoover's] very suspicious in light of the other claims around this alleged event; considering the timing.

    Any other ideas? I might argue the point but all suggestions are appreciated.

    Another interesting little tid-bit that I have picked up on Roswell:
    The government’s response to the UFO claim is that it was the Project MOGUL equipment that was shipped to Wright Patterson AFB on July 8th; not a UFO and dead aliens as is claimed. Next, we find investigations that show that according to all of the daily logs, nothing unusual happened at Roswell on July 7th and 8th - no dramatic changes in the operations, no abrupt change in personnel or normal activities, all aspects of these several days indicate that nothing unusual had taken place. Only a little excitement over the initial misinterpretation of the recovered MOGUL items.

    There are also no records of the equipment being shipped to Wright Patterson AFB as is claimed in the governments own report
    Did we miss something boys? It does make one wonder a bit.

    Finally [though not the end of the story], many of the official documents relating to Roswell were destroyed illegally; this according to the General Accounting Office report found in the Napster.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2003
  5. Aug 25, 2003 #4

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Note significant edits and additions to the post above. I should have just made another post.

    I neglected to address the entire document. For the proper context this seems necessary.

    In the first part of this document, we find an internal memo for Mr. Ladd:
    Then we have and addendum from DML.
    An additional notation is made by EUT [it appears]
    Then we have the quote from Hoover
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2003
  6. Aug 25, 2003 #5

    selfAdjoint

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member
    Dearly Missed

    Data discs. Some radiosondes (weather balloons) had a data system in which an audio signal from a driven tuning fork was modulated by input from a sensor and the record was made on low quality small plastic records. No kidding! So discs could have been data in that pre computer age.
     
  7. Aug 25, 2003 #6
    Ivan,

    I could not get into the FBI files
    to see the Hoover note. Any chance
    you could grab the image and post it here?

    -Zoob

    Post Script: It is very easy to
    find images of the front page
    of the paper reporting capture of
    the disc. I could not, however,
    find images of the recant (bal-
    loon) story. Gotta link?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2003
  8. Aug 25, 2003 #7

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Sorry I was editing late again. Please see the edits to the last post.

    Zooby, I will be back with something later.

    Also FZ+, these data discs would seem to count as a possiblity then.

    Thanks selfAdjoint. Do you have any links on this?
     
  9. Aug 25, 2003 #8

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I can't link the pic directly because we don't have a page by page address to use. This file requires Adobe Reader. Perhaps this is the problem; do you have adobe? I have been using the link myself today so it should be working.

    Can I paste an image to the page? I don't know how.
     
  10. Aug 25, 2003 #9
    Ivan,

    No Adobe. WebTv = modem + keyboard.


    Zantra did it with his Highlander
    animated graphic, so he will know
    how to do it.
     
  11. Aug 25, 2003 #10

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I'm not so sure. That works a little differently I think. Anyway, I copied the entire text from the page referenced. If I can copy jpg's or gif's, or better yet bmp files onto the page, I will do so when appropriate.

    Zantra?

    Hey, I want to make my alien blink every now and then. Can someone help me do this?
     
  12. Aug 25, 2003 #11
    Ivan,

    Copying pictures is not hard if
    you have a real PC. Once you
    copy it into your PC's storage
    you come back here and put it in
    where it says attach file.

    I can't get into anything that is
    adobe or java, myself, but I
    can copy an image and get it
    back to paste into my own webpage
    if I want.I'm SURE you can do it.
     
  13. Aug 25, 2003 #12

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    For some reason it does not like my converted file...as nearly as I can tell. I am copying the pdf page into paint and then saving the file as a jpg. I then resize the image to the posting limit. In the end I had a 85K file; < 600 x 800 in dimensions, but I keep getting an overlimit rejection stating the the image must be less than 800 by 600. Anyone know what's wrong?

    I have to get back to work. I will try more later.
     
  14. Aug 25, 2003 #13
    Well I'm assuming you did the insert image command. All I can suggest is shrink it just a little more to fit it in.

    As for my highlander, it's just a direct link to another website where the image is posted using the IMG tag. As for the blinking alien, you have to find a blinking alien that will be small enough to upload as a custom avatar. You can do rhis wirh gif editing software. personally I didn't want to take it to that level;) I couldn't do it, so I just made it my sig.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2003
  15. Aug 25, 2003 #14
    Ivan,

    You're saying 600x800 then
    800x600 so it seems to be a matter of which is height and
    width. If you make sure none of
    the dimensions in your image is
    greater than 600 it may go.
     
  16. Aug 26, 2003 #15

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Alas, , this was just a misstatement. The problem seems to lie with the converted file. I can't just link the original because it is 65 pages in length. I got a little buried with real work but I will get this working later. I have been meaning to do this anyway.

    Alas,
    Ivan
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2003
  17. Aug 27, 2003 #16

    selfAdjoint

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member
    Dearly Missed

    Ivan, I have no links on the radiosonde info, it's just my memory from long ago weather classes.
     
  18. Aug 27, 2003 #17

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    OK Zooby the problem is resolved. Here is the page discussed. I will post the significant pages when appropriate in the future.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 28, 2003
  19. Aug 29, 2003 #18

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I am posting to update this thread. Zooby, did you see that the attachment finally made it?
     
  20. Aug 29, 2003 #19

    I printed out the Hoover note and am surprised to find that what
    you transcribed as "(unreadable)"
    looks like it says "La." or
    maybe "Sa."

    I had assumed the unreadable
    word was "likely" or something
    to that effect: "For instance
    in the likely case the Army
    grabbed it + wouldn't let us have
    it for cursory examination."

    Instead it is clear he is refering
    to something that already took
    place: The "La. Case" (Louisiana?)

    This is tantalyzing but the type-
    written addendum above it recco-
    mends ignoring the matter since
    "the great bulk" of the discs
    have been pranks. The fact the
    Army wouldn't let Hoover see it
    can easily be explained as
    territorial squabbling and says
    nothing about the authenticity
    of the "La." disc or the Roswell
    incident.

    -zoob
     
  21. Aug 29, 2003 #20
    SA is an abbreviation oft times used in place of "special Agent" or sometimes sargent. Thus,

    had assumed the unreadable
    word was "likely" or something
    to that effect: "For instance
    in the likely case the Army
    grabbed it SA(special agent, sargent) smith wouldn't let us have
    it for cursory examination."

    I've noted SA used to abbreviate special agent in other FOIA docs, but as he's referring to the army, I tend to think in army rank terms. But then I'm not ex mil, so maybe there are special agent designations in the army- *shrug*. It would also explain why it s blacked out- no specific names mentioned, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2003
  22. Aug 29, 2003 #21
    No, Zantra, you're mixed up about
    where the "(unreadable)" goes.
    The plus sign is what Hoover wrote
    as shorthand for the word "and".
    "La." or "Sa." go where I thought
    the word "likely" would be.

    Check out the attachment Ivan posted.

    -Zooby
     
  23. Aug 30, 2003 #22

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I just didn't want to quote unless I was sure of the proper reading.

    I have been trying to ascertain the significance of this memo. First, consider the facts established.

    " inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments"

    "a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks"

    First, a review of the 1400 FBI documents linked reveals a great deal of activity in the FBI regarding these “flying disks”. This interest continues long after these initial documents; at least until Aug of ’53. Many reports were classified; so for some reason the FBI sees this as a matter as significance.

    Secondly, we have the hoaxes. The FBI was well aware of hoaxed “flying disks” as early as July 10th of ’47. These were mostly childlike pranks. For example, one disk recovered was made of a Gulf Oil sign; another was made from circular saw blades. Why would the head of the FBI want access to some 12 year old boy’s Saturday project? These are obviously matters best left to the local police.

    Next, it would appear that those disks not deemed as pranks “are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments". From this it would seem that the only category left to hold Hoover’s interest are the non-military, non-prank disks. This is one point that recaptures my interest a bit. Why the continuing interest in children’s pranks? Also, as far as access to the disks, who is preventing the FBI from having access – local police departments? I doubt it. Also, the military [General Schulgen] requested that the FBI stay out of this business. Does this indicate that the matter is trivial? All things considered, the trivial explanations grow very thin. If this was 1947, I would assume that these things are the work of the dreaded Russians.

    I am not arguing that this is proof of anything. We are talking about reasonable interpretations of the actions of high ranking people. How do you explain this given the context? This all seems very odd to me at best.
     
  24. Aug 30, 2003 #23
    Hoover, because of his prying
    nature, would be eager to access
    anything he felt the Army didn't
    want to grant him access to.

    The Army, being territorial,
    wouldn't want to grant him access
    to anything unless they absolutely
    had to.

    What I'm saying is that the Army
    would be telling him to mind his
    own business even if all they were
    keeping from him was a hangar full
    of Gulf signs and circular saws.

    Hoover was universally disliked
    and disrusted because he used info
    collected by his G-men about
    people's personal lives to pres-
    sure them into various behaviours.

    Hoover's primary goal in collect-
    ing any information was to in-
    crease his power base. This was
    well known in government circles
    and, since the Army had developed
    its own case of paranoid secrecy
    during and after the development
    of the bomb, they would be doubly
    resistent to giving him any access
    to any info, even how much money
    was budgeted for toilet paper.

    "...inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks
    ar not the result of any Army or
    Navy experiments..."

    This must refer to reports of
    disks actually observed flying.
    It cannot refer to any recovered
    craft since the FBI hasn't been
    given access to any, and can't
    have acertained anything. The
    above statement would be the
    result of having spoken to the
    Army and Navy and having been
    convincingly assured these flying
    disks were not ours.

    A hoax perpetrated by the Rus-
    sians? I think this is exactly the
    tye of psychological weirdness
    that would have appealed to Stalin
    and the Russian Psyche in general.

    -zoob
     
  25. Aug 30, 2003 #24

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Typically the hoaxes - all that I have seen in the FBI files - were retrieved by local police or fire deparments. They were then held if and until the FBI field agent arrived. So I don't think the hoaxes connect to the military...at least I have seen no evidence of this until the official investigations surface as Projects Bluebook, Grudge, and Sign. Why would the military be interested when they know the whole things was started by false rumors caused by a crashed ballon?

    But you seem to ignore that this one week after Roswell. Let's see....the FBI was assured that no disk ever crashed. However, a memo is found from July 8th indicating that the Army claims that the recovered disk at Roswell was eight sided and tethered to a balloon by a cable. The memo further states that this does not agree with statements made by the office at the Roswell Army airfield. Perhaps this is the disk referenced? This however does not jive with the radar reflector story release on July 8th. Anyway, now you’ve gone and done it. I guess I’m going to have to dig into these files again and really try to nail down these details. This is starting to bug me.

    Also, as far as the Russian idea, there are a couple of interesting reports from Northern Africa, from the 50's I think [I am not sure about the details here], from field CIA agents [in the CIA files linked in the Napster] regarding crashed mechanical flying saucers that were found - the earthly kind. These things had engines and were of unknown origins. As reported, they also had some kind of electronics – vacuum tubes for example. It also seems that some of the parts had Russian writing on them. These reports are obscure and otherwise unsupported but they do exist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2003
  26. Aug 30, 2003 #25
    The memo about the eight sided
    disc tethered to a weather bal-
    loon is news to me. This would
    make it terrestrial and more
    likely than not Russian, since
    the Army hid it away so quickly.

    1947 was, I believe, the year the
    Russians built a copy of the B-29
    long range bomber. This would
    have enabled them to reach most
    of the US from across the Bering
    Straits. They could have deployed
    these balloons with discs. Maybe
    the discs were full of sensors for
    spying or maybe the balloons were
    supposed to release them so they
    would crash and start rumors of
    an invasion from outer space. Hard
    to say.

    The thought that bothers me is,
    if it was an attempt to generate
    terror they might well have put
    some genetically messed up family
    on board the one that crashed at
    Roswell to pass as aliens.

    I have always thought the alien
    in the alien autopsy looked like
    some kind of deformed person,
    rather than an out and out Craig
    Reardon special effects thing.
    If you ever saw the movie Freaks you'll know how
    bizarre people can turn out.

    -Zooby
     
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook