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Zero Point Energy and Antigravity(aka Electrogravitic research

  1. Aug 7, 2003 #1
    I would like to get your opinions on this area. I am not a physicist, and so my knowledge of this area is almost nonexistant. Here's the link to some compiled information, below I'll give some excerpts. I'm purely interested in the scientific views on these theories, and weather they sound possible, or not possible.

    http://www.seaspower.com/Outsidethebox-Loder.htm

    the mid 1920's Townsend Brown [2] discovered that electric charge and gravitational mass are coupled. He found that when he charged a capacitor to a high voltage, it had a tendency to move toward its positive pole. This became known as the Biefeld-Brown effect.

    The essence of electrogravitics thrust is the use of a very strong positive charge on one side of the vehicle and a negative on the other. The core of the motor is a condenser and the ability of the condenser to hold its charge (the K-number) is the yardstick of performance. With air as 1, current dielectrical materials can yield 6 and use of barium aluminate can raise this considerably, barium titanium oxide (a baked ceramic) can offer 6,000 and there is a promise of 30,000, which would be sufficient for supersonic speed."

    Although general relativity has not been able to explain Brown’s electrogravitic observations, or any other antigravity phenomenon, the recent physics methodology of quantum electrodynamics (QED), appears to offer the theoretical framework to explain electrogravitic coupling.

    The second aspect of these physics findings deals with the zero point or vacuum state energy shown by the Casimir effect, which predicts that two metal plates close together attract each other due to imbalance in the quantum fluctuations. The implications of this zero point or vacuum state energy are tremendous and are described in several papers by Puthoff [17] starting during the late 1980s.

    The question that is being addressed is: what keeps the universe running? Or more specifically, where do electrons get their energy to keep spinning around atoms? As electrons change state they absorb or release energy, and where does it come from? The simplistic answer is that it is coming from the vacuum state. Puthoff [23] describes the process as follows: "I discovered that you can consider the electron as continually radiating away its energy as predicted by classical theory, but SIMULTANEOUSLY ABSORBING a COMPENSATING AMOUNT of energy from the ever-present sea of zero-point energy in which the atom is immersed. An equilibrium between these two processes leads to the correct values for the parameters that define the lowest energy, or ground-state orbit (see "Why atoms don't collapse," NEW SCIENTIST, July 1987). Thus there is a DYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM in which the zero-point energy stabilizes the electron in a set ground-state orbit. It seems that the very stability of matter itself appears to depend on an underlying sea of electromagnetic zero-point energy."

    Furthermore, it appears that it is the spinning of electrons that provides inertia and mass to atoms. These theories, linking electron spin, zero point energy, mass, and inertia have been presented in a number of recent papers, such as those by Haisch [24] and colleagues and provide us with a possible explanation of the Biefield-Brown effect. It appears that an intense voltage field creates an electromagnetic barrier that blocks the atomic structure of an atom from interacting with the zero point field. This slows down the electrons, reducing their gyroscopic effect, and thus reducing atomic mass and inertia, making them easier to move around.

    We also have the next level of propulsion, it is called virtual field, which are called hydrodynamic waves..."
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 8, 2003 #2
    so no one at all has a comment on the validity of this? Disregard the source, and consider the scientific principals this paper addresses. As someone said, be skeptical, but do not be prejudiced.
     
  4. Aug 8, 2003 #3
    Zero point energy

    There is a lot in your post!!
    Seaspower doesn't explain how they get their "free energy". They have had press releases etc but no-one has really seen the goods. Many have made over-unity claims, but who do you know has been able to buy a commercial unit and avoid energy bills (I don't count solar, wind, tidal, etc as valid over-unity methods)

    I think there is a connection between electric and magnetic fields and gravity. However as we have so little understanding of how gravity and inertia arise the physics seems doubtful. Putoff, Haisch and Rueda have made a good attempt at a theory. Even more interesting is Podkletnov's experiments. I think he is the closest todate to unlocking the mystery. Maybe the Townsend Brown work should be thoroughly investigated further as the final rewards will be great. Imagine a world of inertialess space drives! That's the holy grail in my book.

    Keep asking questions!!!!

    Marts
     
  5. Aug 8, 2003 #4
    That is the whole problem with these holes that need to be filled. And I believe the reason no one's willing to comment (other than yourself thusfar) is the source of this. People aren't willing to look past the conjecture and beyond to the scientific aspects of this, which disturbs me. Is the scientific community unwilling to address these obviously valid theories solely due to bias? Regardless of the skeptics who may say the source of this is a major hoax, This is purely scientific research which has been performed. And if it is true, it is any physicist's wet dream come true. So again, I encourage further reading on this topic and dicussion of it. Again I'm not a physics major, so I cannot debate this, only present the facts as I see them.
     
  6. Aug 8, 2003 #5
    Re: Zero point energy

    The whole issue is that this technology does exist, and has been kept top secret for many years and withheld from the public and scientific community. Consider for a moment the ramifications of limitless zero-point energy. Imagine the imapact on the world economy, on the fossil fuel industry. Imagine the trillion dollar shift as oil companies are put out of business, new companies spring up for conversion.fossil fuel becomes practically obsolete. Imagine the ramifications of not needing an oil fuel supply on the middle east, on 3rd wrld countries as they now would have a limitless supply of zero-point energy. Further imagine the revolution on space exploration, the cascading effects would be felt by every single person on earth. This would be bigger than flight, bigger than the light bulb, bigger than the automobile. In fact the greatest discovery to date. It would virtually rewrite physics as it went.

    Now you know why someone might want to keep this a secret.
     
  7. Aug 8, 2003 #6
  8. Aug 8, 2003 #7
    Yeah I've read this stuff before. The suggestion that the B-2 bomber uses some kind of electrogravitic technology is quite intruiging. Of course it's all way too far deep in the shadows to make it clear just how much is known in that area.
     
  9. Aug 8, 2003 #8
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I'm so happy that there are other people in this area. some great but cooky sites:
    http://www.jlnlabs.org/
    http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html
    I've been secretive for a few days, but I can't hold it in any more. I have recreated the experiment outlined on the following site, proving that free energy is possible, but I have yet to make it practical.
    http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotidx.htm
    The free increase in gravitational potential energy I've gotten is 3mJ! Note, that is milli- not micro-!
    I know it seems like I'm tring to hijack the thread, but the second of the three websites is identical to the subject of the thread, and has lots of good info on a motionless perpetual motion machine.
     
  10. Aug 8, 2003 #9

    russ_watters

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    You misspelled "pseudoscience" in the parentheses in the thread title.

    Thats pretty much it for the "science" of this stuff. The real debate is how best to prosecute those who use pseudoscience to defraud gullible people into buying nonexistant "free energy" devices.

    You must ALWAYS consider the source.
    No. It hasn't. ZPE isn't about research, its about FRAUD.
    Which is precisely why if it WERE true, REAL scientists would be drooling over their keyboards while racing to get their papers published.
    You must not ever connect science and conspiracy theory. If there is real science in this, it must stand on its own.
    Science CANNOT be kept secret. It simly doesn't work. If two people know about it, its not a secret.
     
  11. Aug 8, 2003 #10
    Russ, you are so dogmatic. I do agree this belongs in the psuedoscience page. But free energy is possible, and not always about fraud, seeing as how I haven't given any of them money and I have recreated a proven free energy device, without asking for money. The people on the websites I gave have on them or links to sites with disclaimers saying that the feild is usually about fraud, so don't give free energy people money. I have a working version, I have tested it over and over, and it lifts a 23g magnet 1.7cm up, then drops it. I'm working on a rotary version now, since a magnet spitting device isn't practical. Btw, the ramp is 5.75 degrees and the table it is on is level, minus 1 or 2 degrees, making the ramp accually 6.75 to 7.75 degrees.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  12. Aug 8, 2003 #11
    As you are on physics forum, better ask why does this thing seem to work and how should one explain it away. Then we'd perhaps can get interesting discussion.
     
  13. Aug 8, 2003 #12
    Free energy is possible? I wish. Thermodynamics rules it out pretty much. After all, how do you propose to create this energy out of nothing?

    Think about it. The motor it proposes moves by saying the negative side will be attracted to the positive side. Well, what is pushing the positive side forward? You say the ship moving. Well what moves the ship? The negative side moving to the positive side. But wait a minute. The positive side also would go down towards the negative side. Hmm we have no net force anymore. Zero force means zero acceleration, and hence no movement. Oops. So much for that free energy device.
     
  14. Aug 8, 2003 #13
    It seems money is no object(at least for now!)http://www.seaspower.com/Invest.htm

    It also seems that S.E.A.S was set up by someone not on the technical merit table?
    http://www.seaspower.com/aboutus.htm

    But is here in name only:Steven M. Greer


    It is quite obvious that the real technology frontiers are still on an ever decreasing Horizon away from the present time.

    I do not doubt that B.E.C will be incorparated(if not already)into the equipment of onboard military craft, and specific BEC or the lesser doped family of entangled downconverters(To slow and trap incoming energy of enemy radar..and even laser guidence systems) will be tuned to attract and destroy any incoming hv frequencies, making the craft appear as a walking..talking..flying Blackhole Horizon!

    There are many advances we humans can wish for, but the ones that get off the ground, and into our households are the ones which dictate where we go into the future.
     
  15. Aug 8, 2003 #14

    Ivan Seeking

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    I'm not arguing for the general position here. But FYC.

    Regarding ZPE and the Casimir Effect: "Northeastern University experimental particle physicists Stephen Reucroft and John Swain put their heads together to write the following answer."

    From Scientific American; Ask the experts.

    "It is generally true that the amount of energy in a piece of vacuum can be altered by material around it, and the term "Casimir Effect" is also used in this broader context. If the mirrors move rapidly, some of the vacuum waves can become real waves. Julian Schwinger and many others have suggested that this "dynamical Casimir effect" may be responsible for the mysterious phenomenon known as sonoluminescence.

    One of the most interesting aspects of vacuum energy (with or without mirrors) is that, calculated in quantum field theory, it is infinite! To some, this finding implies that the vacuum of space could be an enormous source of energy--called "zero point energy."
     
  16. Aug 8, 2003 #15
    This is just one source on ZPE research. SEAS claims that they have been contacted by SEVERAL individuals who are either in the process of, or already have developed these devices. It's understandable to maintain secrecy prior to completion in order to ensure copyright, intellectual, and other legal interests are met.

    Since you're claiming that all these people who've done actual research in this area are crackpots, please do us the favor of presenting your findings from your own personal research, or the research on ZPE proving the casmir affect and other theories false. That or other papers disproving these theories. Otherwise, you're just being bitter, close-minded, and very biased, judgemental and pretty much the antithesis of a scientist.

    I eagerly await your reply
     
  17. Aug 8, 2003 #16
    If this is accurate, it would seem some people need to take thier foot out of thier mouths.
     
  18. Aug 8, 2003 #17
    I do not believe anyone here is (well if they know any science they wouldn't) attacking the existance of the Casmir effect. Rather it is the harnessing of it for free energy. The Casmir effect is symmetrical, meaning no useful work will come of it in that form. At present there is NO way to generate an asymmetrical Casmir effect, and if I recall, calculations show it may in fact be impossible.

    Rather the thing being disputed here is that free energy is not possible. Sure there can be claims of it and claims that several people bought into it, but look back and see just how many claims for free energy have been made before, and notice how the people who sell it never, ever, ever deliver.
     
  19. Aug 8, 2003 #18

    Ivan Seeking

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    way out of bounds

    I posted this just after Brad_Ad23. This was intended for Zantra and Jonathan.
     
  20. Aug 8, 2003 #19

    Ivan Seeking

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    I only know a little about this from some lightweight sources. I have heard conjecture about this.... I don't mean to argue that these are valid considerations; only that I have read of such ideas from apparently reputable sources.

    Edit: Also, I never understood ZPE to be free. I thought this was a problem of symmetry not source?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2003
  21. Aug 8, 2003 #20
    My message was more directed towards those claiming a conspiracy, or for there to be free energy.

    And as for ZPE and it being free energy, that is correct. As I said, because it is symmetrical there is no way to tap into it. It is merely a curio. What would happen if you tapped into it? Well, energy likes to flow. It will travel from areas of higher concentration (higher energy density) to areas of lower concentration (lower energy density...pretty much basic thermodynamics dealing with heat). If you opened up this well of infinite energy, guess what you just did? You created a white hole, and destroyed the universe all in one. Congrats :wink:
     
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