| Thread Closed |
Fan & Propeller shapes: Sickle and Curved |
Share Thread | Thread Tools |
| Jul13-07, 09:10 AM | #1 |
|
|
Fan & Propeller shapes: Sickle and Curved
Air or Water:
I'm looking for information on fan and propeller shapes (ducted and non-ducted) which might lead to more quiet if not more efficient shapes. Noise is lost energy just as heat is lost energy in a mechanical system, right? I have a thread which contains many bits of information for the context of this request. It also has many pictures which if you cannot see tell me and I'll repost all the links here. I'm no engineer, pretty pictures tell me a lot. However if you have recommended text books, graphs, charts or other information you feel you can share, please add it to this thread. Reference Thread: http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...opic=1244&st=0 Sample Picture and second link: http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...opic=1232&st=0 Cheers, George/kach22i |
| Jul13-07, 01:06 PM | #2 |
|
|
And cavitation. Big problem in propellors. That's why they're curved.
|
| Jul13-07, 03:51 PM | #3 |
|
Recognitions:
|
Do realize that fan shape is an extremely active area of research. We are always looking for ways to tweak our fan blade designs to achieve exactly what you are asking about. In regards to noise, the tip geometry is pretty much king. That's where you are sure to go supersonic and that is where the noise is generated.
For example, the forward swept tip is now the standard. http://www.turbokart.com/images/ge90_huge.jpg You can also see the tips here on Honda's blatant copy of our engine: http://world.honda.com/HondaJet/Back...images/top.jpg I'll see if I can dig up any more sources. |
| Jul13-07, 03:56 PM | #4 |
|
Mentor
|
Fan & Propeller shapes: Sickle and Curvedhttp://www.turbokart.com/images/DSC01746.JPG . |
| Jul14-07, 02:57 PM | #5 |
|
|
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=Imgp1438.flv Turbofan Video-2: http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...t=Imgp1448.flv These details look very odd to me, taken at a local airshow last week at Willow Run (FedEx jet). Do these steps and bevels or cants help reduce noise? http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/ The Horten brothers and their WWII flying wings had some odd pusher propellers, I'll try to find my books and post those pictures too. |
| Jul14-07, 09:28 PM | #6 |
|
Recognitions:
|
I didn't get a chance to get down to Willow Run this time. I was bummed out. Did the MING have one of their CH-47s there?
Anyways, there are certain things that fan design need to accomplish: - High thrust - Low weight - Low Noise - Structural integrity It's difficult to say exactly what each fan designer had in mind with each specific piece of geometry. As I mentioned before. the tip area, especially on a large diameter fan, is going to have a lot of supersonic shock issues. That means noise. So pretty much any design is an effort to increase the efficiency and decrease the noise at the tips. |
| Jul18-07, 10:50 AM | #7 |
|
|
My 34 picture album of the Willow Run airshow, mostly B-25 nose art. http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20Run%202007/ Back to the topic; does anyone know if NASA has any current or very recent projects dealing with curved blades? I know they did a super quiet prop. It was hollow and had air pumped through it. The escaping air controled the vortex's which make sound. The air did not escape out the tips, rather it vented on the backside of the prop surface via the hub. |
| Jul18-07, 01:24 PM | #8 |
|
|
From page 12 of the Random Picture thread in the O.T. section of HCA.
http://www2.nlr.nl/public/facilities/AVET-...PropBlades.html ![]() ![]() Daniel T. Valentine, Ph.D. http://people.clarkson.edu/~space/VALPG1.html ![]() Photo from the Naval Institute Proceedings web site; this propeller was the first highly-skewed propeller installed on a U. S. Merchant ship. The Project was supported by MARAD. It was designed by Valentine (when working at DTRDC under Dr. Wm. B. Morgan). From page 13.........................of HCA thread. http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...pic=779&st=180 http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/art/2..._01_default.asp http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscenter/...0_20041116.html ![]() NASA Novel Engineering and Fabrication Techniques Tested in Low-Noise-Research Fan Blades http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT2001/7...unningham.html ![]() Trailing Edge Blowing blade with top skin removed. Air enters at the retainer (bottom right) and exits through turning vanes at the trailing edge ![]()
|
| Jul18-07, 01:26 PM | #9 |
|
Mentor
|
Wow! That NASA fan blade design is wild.
|
| Jul18-07, 01:31 PM | #10 |
|
|
http://www.everbe.com/Products/Sport...20rackets.html http://www.everbe.com/Products/Sport...on%20birdy.jpg |
| Jul19-07, 12:09 PM | #11 |
|
|
Why do helicopter rotor blades have weights in them?
Do other types of fans or propellers have end tip or leading edge weights? Why? Helicopter blades have weights in them? http://www.cavalrypilot.com/fm1-514/Ch3.htm |
| Jul20-07, 06:31 AM | #12 |
|
Recognitions:
|
|
| Jul21-07, 10:32 PM | #13 |
|
|
I thought this paper may be of interest to some.
Senior Thesis Project University of Virginia Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Raymond Scott Ciszek March 25, 2002 http://members.aol.com/sciszek/propfan.htm
|
| Jul22-07, 03:46 PM | #14 |
Recognitions:
|
When the engine is running, the blades twist and the snubbers press against each other to act like a solid ring. That has a big effect on the lowest vibration frequency of the blades, and eliminates some aerodynamic stability problems (a.k.a. flutter). The disadvantage is they partly block the airflow through the fan. Modern fan designs have longer blade chords and "hollow" blades (actually, lightweight composite structures inside the blade) to control these vibration issues without using snubbers between the blades. |
| Jul23-07, 09:53 AM | #15 |
|
|
EDIT: AlephZero are you calling the vane riblets "snubbers"? Will the turbofan's blades will be pulled foreward and well into the larger part of the duct opening under full speed? You see the level changes there (right?), one is sloping a little. This cannot be good for tip blade vortex generation, right? http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rent=FAN-1.jpg http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rent=FAN-2.jpg |
| Apr13-08, 01:44 PM | #16 |
|
|
Here's a related question: Both (air) fan blades and ships' propellor blades often have one side that's curved (convex) and another side that's either straight or concave. But the orientation is OPPOSITE on fan blades and propellors! I.e., props seem to lead with their curved (convex) edge, as the leading edge, while fan blades seem to lead with the other side and use the curved (convex) edge as a trailing edge!
How can the optimum blade shape for these two common fluids be OPPOSITE from each other? Seems weird to me. BTW, I'm old enough to remember when fan blades looked like prop blades. I don't think the shape of props has changes hugely in those decades, but the shape of fan blades has. Now some of them seem to have concave leading edges with swept-forward "points" at the outside! If that were a universally efficient way of slicing through the air at an angle to generate lift, I'd expect modern airplanes to have wings with concave LEs with swept-forward wing tips. But I haven't seen anything like that -- at least not yet! What gives? |
| Apr13-08, 07:02 PM | #17 |
|
|
|
| Thread Closed |
| Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads for: Fan & Propeller shapes: Sickle and Curved
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | Replies | ||
| airplane propeller | Introductory Physics Homework | 2 | ||
| Propeller Design | Mechanical Engineering | 1 | ||
| Propeller and thrust | Mechanical Engineering | 8 | ||
| Sickle Cell Anaemia | Biology | 1 | ||