dr. phil

[chrisdimassi]

I like your signature, Astronuc. You would be surprised how many people drop out of math because they lose sight of the "why" to math, it's difficult not to.
Did anybody record this Dr. Phil episode? The IQ answer (http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/767)

In it, a young woman's mother mentioned that she was doing very well in math and her teacher did not understand what was wrong. The young lady said that she was just memorizing theorems but had no idea WHAT she was doing!
Dr. Phil's reply was something along the lines of 'maybe you just aren't cut out for math, your gift may be in something else'.
:grumpy: Great advice, Dr. Phil.

My question is this: do teachers really know what's happening with numbers beyond arithmetic or have they just 'memorized theorems' to get through college and get a teaching degree?

[Doc Al]

Note: I moved this from the tutorial section to GD, where it may get more attention. (The tutorial section for posting tutorials, not for discussion.)

[chroot]

Some teachers are brilliant, while others are more akin to parrots. I don't think it would be fair to make a sweeping generalizations about all teachers, do you?

Furhermore, does this thread really have a point?

- Warren

[JasonRox]

It's not fair to make generalizations, but being part of classes who have prospective teachers, I would have to say not very many of them know what's going. In fact, I haven't met one yet.

I'd say they don't know anything. If you don't want to generalize, let's just say that maybe 1 in 1000 know what they are doing.

Sometimes it's not what you know that makes great teachers. A teacher who cares about the individual successes of the students and who will help them explore areas they enjoy is a great teacher.

[JasonRox]

I like your signature, Astronuc. You would be surprised how many people drop out of math because they lose sight of the "why" to math, it's difficult not to.


It's funny because I never heard anyone asking the arts teacher...

...why are we drawing pictures? We throw them in the garbage after class anyways.

...why are we playing instruments? It sounds horrible.

...why are we acting out a play? Nobody is watching.

And the list goes on for all kinds of subjects.

Ignorance gets you nowhere.

[Chi Meson]

Some teachers are brilliant, while others are more akin to parrots.

- Warren
I've met some brilliant parrots too.

[chrisdimassi]

It's funny because I never heard anyone asking the arts teacher...

...why are we drawing pictures? We throw them in the garbage after class anyways.

...why are we playing instruments? It sounds horrible.

...why are we acting out a play? Nobody is watching.

And the list goes on for all kinds of subjects.

Ignorance gets you nowhere.


Er, I wasn't referring to 'why we need math'. As I had mentioned with the young girl telling Dr. Phil that she didn't want to continue with math because she didn't understand it beyond the rote memorization of formulas, people need an intuitive understanding of the learning of math as opposed to an ignorance of its construction.

[chrisdimassi]

It's not fair to make generalizations, but being part of classes who have prospective teachers, I would have to say not very many of them know what's going. In fact, I haven't met one yet.

I'd say they don't know anything. If you don't want to generalize, let's just say that maybe 1 in 1000 know what they are doing.

Sometimes it's not what you know that makes great teachers. A teacher who cares about the individual successes of the students and who will help them explore areas they enjoy is a great teacher.

One in one thousand? My worst nightmare has been realized.
Yes, bravo for teachers who can teach the material in whatever way, creative or otherwise, that they can. Teachers who really care about the student's future should receive medals.
Out of over 60+ teachers from 1st-12th (I moved a lot), I can think of only two who knew how to communicate well and they were the only classes I ever made A's in.

[chrisdimassi]

Some teachers are brilliant, while others are more akin to parrots. I don't think it would be fair to make a sweeping generalizations about all teachers, do you?

Furhermore, does this thread really have a point?

- Warren

I didn't really say 'all' teachers, I just said 'teachers'. If that means 'all teachers', well, grammar was not my strong suit. Otherwise, it's an assumption of my intentions.
Noting from what the young lady said and from my own experience, it seems to be a common occurence that many teachers do not have an intuitive understanding of what they teach.
Note I'm not referring to college professors here, necessarily (many I have met seem to be brilliant personally as well as being fully competent in imparting knowledge to students)

A good point would be: what's being done to change this in the educational system?

[Cyrus]

I didn't really say 'all' teachers, I just said 'teachers'. If that means 'all teachers', well, grammar was not my strong suit. Otherwise, it's an assumption of my intentions.
Noting from what the young lady said and from my own experience, it seems to be a common occurence that many teachers do not have an intuitive understanding of what they teach.
Note I'm not referring to college professors here, necessarily (many I have met seem to be brilliant personally as well as being fully competent in imparting knowledge to students)

A good point would be: what's being done to change this in the educational system?

In order to teach in college you must have a PHD. For high school, you dont even have to major or minor in the subject you teach. Plus anyone worth a damn isint going to waste their time teaching to get min. wage, when they can make double the amount doing real work.

Those who can do, those who can't teach.

[chroot]

I can think of only two who knew how to communicate well and they were the only classes I ever made A's in.

Your comments are indicative of a sweeping selection bias shared by, well, almost everyone: the only good teachers are the ones who gave me A's.

That's more than a little short-sighted, in my opinion. Education is difficult for the teacher, but, frankly, it must be even more difficult for the student.

- Warren

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Now I wanna know if I was just recited too. o_o

I think not though, my math teacher is very good.

~Gelsamel

[Moonbear]

There are a lot of students who get through high school by memorizing and regurgitating without processing and understanding, not just in math. These are the students who have the toughest time adjusting to college courses, because they haven't learned to learn in high school and think they'll coast through college the same way they coasted through high school. These are the students who wind up in the instructors' offices after the first exam wondering how they only got a C or D when they've gotten As all their life.

However, a lot of what is taught at the high school level DOES require simple, rote memorization. Until you have some basics in your head, you really can't fully understand the concepts involved. A good teacher will remind the students from time to time that they are asking them to memorize something now because they have not yet been taught enough to understand the reasoning behind it, but will get to that in later courses, so they don't lose sight that there's more to it than just memorization.

One needs to realize that learning is not a linear process. You have to do a lot of doubling back and revisiting of material. High school and introductory college courses are essentially intended as an overview of an entire discipline. It's just skimming the surface to give you the big picture, and then as you get into higher level courses, you'll be able to keep the details in perspective.

It's a shame that the young lady in question has been done a disservice by discouraging her from a subject when she has realized on her own that there's more to learning than memorizing, and has developed a thirst for that higher level of learning.

As for the question of whether teachers themselves know the subject beyond the level of memorization, when you get into high school subject specialties, unless someone is being asked to teach a class that is not their specialization (i.e., the teacher certified to teach high school English being dumped into an algebra class because the school can't get a more qualified teacher), they usually choose their subject because of what interests them.

As with any profession, you will find a range of qualifications among teachers. For every outstanding teacher, there is also one who scraped by and barely met the requirements for certification.

There's a saying:
"A good teacher explains.
A superior teacher demonstrates.
A great teacher inspires."

Unfortunately for the young lady discussed in the OP, her teacher has missed an opportunity to inspire her, as has Dr. Phil, but we already know he's a hack. When a student expresses frustration with memorizing subject material without being enlightened to a higher understanding, that is the time to suggest either a tutorial to delve deeper into some of the concepts, or to do an extra credit assignment that is more challenging and requires linking concepts, or even just to sit down and explain that she's going to need to have these theorems memorized in order to tackle the conceptual part of the subject that is taught at the college level, and to just hang onto that enthusiasm for college.

[Chi Meson]

In order to teach in college you must have a PHD. For high school, you dont even have to major or minor in the subject you teach. Plus anyone worth a damn isint going to waste their time teaching to get min. wage, when they can make double the amount doing real work.

Those who can do, those who can't teach.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!:grumpy:

CY! I tusted you! I tusted yooooooooou!

Anyway, it's not minimum wage and we get 13 weeks off every year. I could get more money but less time off if I worked for a local acoustical engineering unit that's nearby. I chose more time.

[marlon]

Unfortunately for the young lady discussed in the OP, her teacher has missed an opportunity to inspire her, as has Dr. Phil, but we already know he's a hack.

So is Dr Phil considered to be a fake media psychologist ? Do intelligent people take him seriously ?

We have his shows on TV here but we donnot take that stuff very seriously. The entire concept of that show appears quite strange to me and many others.

marlon

[chroot]

I don't think anyone with any sense considers Dr. Phil (or any other TV personality) to be anything more substantive than brain-dead entertainment.

- Warren

[JasonRox]

There's a saying:
"A good teacher explains.
A superior teacher demonstrates.
A great teacher inspires."


I like that one. :biggrin:

[JasonRox]

I think we are living in perverse times when in the country with the largest economy the majority of high schools are not giving kids a proper education when they are the most well equipped in the world.

I think this is because in North America we take everything for granted.

[Cyrus]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!:grumpy:

CY! I tusted you! I tusted yooooooooou!

Anyway, it's not minimum wage and we get 13 weeks off every year. I could get more money but less time off if I worked for a local acoustical engineering unit that's nearby. I chose more time.


:rofl: I knew when I typed that I was going to get it on the head from you. :rofl:

I would put you with the small minority of teachers that actually give a damn about what they teach. I had one teacher like that in freshman year. He was my american history teacher. He was in Vietnam and had some of his fingers blown off and told us about how he got hit with a mortar round. And he taught at the Naval Academy, wrote books, and did work at the Arlington Cemetery. He was a really cool guy and we all respected him. Then he died from a heart attack the next year...too bad, we all loved him.


As for the rest of the teachers, they couldnt find their own *** if they tried. Complete and total idiots, I mean where do they find some of these people????

I have met a good handful of africans that came to this country for school while at college (were talking 3rd world countries here). They all tell me about their high school and how they learned calc1, calc2, some of calc3, linear algebra, french, english.

The US school system for K-12 is a joke. I would NEVER put my kid in any lousy public school. It's going to be private school for k-8, and then either private school or community college in place of high school. NO WAY are they going to a public high school.

God, I could go on and on and on about how I hate public schools.....

And those lunches! People in prison get better food, seriously......

[chrisdimassi]

For high school, you dont even have to major or minor in the subject you teach.

I had no idea.
We really can't blame people for wanting to take higher paying jobs, teaching sounds like a major sacrifice.
One thing that occured to me is that teachers are the products of this flawed system which is a possible other cause.

[chrisdimassi]

Your comments are indicative of a sweeping selection bias shared by, well, almost everyone: the only good teachers are the ones who gave me A's.

That's more than a little short-sighted, in my opinion. Education is difficult for the teacher, but, frankly, it must be even more difficult for the student.

- Warren

Well, I sort of just threw that comment in. :tongue2: It is true that most of the students did very well in those classes and became quite proficient yet after moving, students in that subject did not do as well or seem as enthused about the subject. Same textbook, different teachers.

[chrisdimassi]

I don't think anyone with any sense considers Dr. Phil (or any other TV personality) to be anything more substantive than brain-dead entertainment.

- Warren

:rolleyes: What? All psychiatrists aren't geniuses? What qualifies them to give IQ tests? :rofl:

[Moonbear]

So is Dr Phil considered to be a fake media psychologist ? Do intelligent people take him seriously ?

We have his shows on TV here but we donnot take that stuff very seriously. The entire concept of that show appears quite strange to me and many others.

marlon
Intelligent people don't take him seriously, but sadly, there are a lot of people who do take him seriously. He does manage to give advice that you want to hear him give on some shows, but that doesn't make it good advice. (Sort of the "Just Get Over It Already!" type comments that get a good laugh, but are totally useless for someone whose problem is they haven't gotten over "it" already, whatever "it" is.)

[JasonRox]

Intelligent people don't take him seriously, but sadly, there are a lot of people who do take him seriously. He does manage to give advice that you want to hear him give on some shows, but that doesn't make it good advice. (Sort of the "Just Get Over It Already!" type comments that get a good laugh, but are totally useless for someone whose problem is they haven't gotten over "it" already, whatever "it" is.)

He does give a lot of help to people on the show though. He will have people keep up with you and everything.

Also, we have to remember that his show is for general information only. So, for general problems that viewers might have, the line "Just Get Over It Already!" will suffice. For example, when he had guests that were overweight and trying to lost weight, the first key was to get out of the state of denial. This only applies to the general overweight person though.

[chrisdimassi]

His comment to the girl was very surprising. It showed no depth of thought nor understanding of intellectual processes.
It's a shrink's job to give advice so bad advice=incompetence in my book.
So maybe he shows some common sense sometimes but I recall the first thing that ever struck me about him is that he acts like a prick. How is that therapy? Tough love, my arse.

[chrisdimassi]

Not that I dislike all shrinks, of course. I've run into a couple good ones on science forums over the years.

[chrisdimassi]

:rofl: I knew when I typed that I was going to get it on the head from you. :rofl:

I would put you with the small minority of teachers that actually give a damn about what they teach. I had one teacher like that in freshman year. He was my american history teacher. He was in Vietnam and had some of his fingers blown off and told us about how he got hit with a mortar round. And he taught at the Naval Academy, wrote books, and did work at the Arlington Cemetery. He was a really cool guy and we all respected him. Then he died from a heart attack the next year...too bad, we all loved him.


As for the rest of the teachers, they couldnt find their own *** if they tried. Complete and total idiots, I mean where do they find some of these people????

I have met a good handful of africans that came to this country for school while at college (were talking 3rd world countries here). They all tell me about their high school and how they learned calc1, calc2, some of calc3, linear algebra, french, english.

The US school system for K-12 is a joke. I would NEVER put my kid in any lousy public school. It's going to be private school for k-8, and then either private school or community college in place of high school. NO WAY are they going to a public high school.

God, I could go on and on and on about how I hate public schools.....

And those lunches! People in prison get better food, seriously......


That's exactly right, they are institutions. Not an environment conducive to learning if you ask me.
The problem is, I assume, that many teachers graduated from the same system and it's hard to break out of a cycle from the environment that you were brought up in (be it family or school).
I think of it like someone who is born in the ghetto. It's nobody's fault where they are born but the environment is set against them.
Sure there are the very few who get out with luck, hard work, meeting the right people (any combination) and we praise those people for persevering under harsh circumstances but that's not the point.
The solution is to change the environment. Why? Because our country has to IMPORT many of our scientists and other intellectuals. Nothing wrong with that but it indicates that many of our students are missing out on what others from other countries are evidently not. So you bet your *** something needs to change in the educational system of this country!

Yes, thank God for the teachers who have been able &/or willing to rise above and break out of the cycle. However, good teaching skills need to be the norm, not the exception!
It seems that one goal of this website is doing a great service to the community. Many of us had parents who were unable to afford tutors or unaware that they should. Thank you to the volunteers for giving your time to make up for what our education system can not do and to the teachers who care.

[moose]

A great example is the calculus teacher at my high school.

I took Calculus I with him last year, second semester. I thought that he was a pretty good teacher because my previous math teachers were worse than him. I received an A in the course without much trouble. Over the summer, I took Calculus II taught by a grad student. This grad student was by FAR my favorite math teacher I have ever had. He explained everything in a very logical order, in a way that makes you understand immediately if you are thinking along quickly enough. He proved almost everything that he wrote (theorems and rules and such). The final grade in the course consisted of four tests and ten quizes. I payed very close attention in class and thought along with everything that he said, and he did a very good job convering a plethora of topics in one class thoroughly. Due to this, I glanced over my notes everyday for about 10 minutes, and was ready for the next day. I studied for a few hours before tests, but nothing too major. I spoke with several of the students in the course, and the ones who had trouble were the ones who weren't following along with the grad student as well as others were. In the end, only two people out of the class of 35 received an A, me being one of them. The tests were seriously difficult. The final was insane. I loved how he had problems on there which we were never taught and weren't in the book, but you could figure out if you understood well enough and throught it through. After this, I took differential equations. I didn't take the prerequisite, which was multivariable calculus, but some math director dude said it should be fine. Should be... I took differential equations and had a good professor, not as good as the grad student, but good none the less. So I go through the extremely challenging course, studying at least 3 hours a night, and end up with a D (about class average...). I did what I could, but the fact that it was a summer course (5 weeks long), and that it was very heavily based on multivariable calc, just turned out to be too much.

SO where am I getting at?

I now tutor for the Calculus I class at my high school. I never realized how horrible of a teacher the teacher really is. He never explains anything, just states things. When someone asks him a simple question, like how someone came up with the product rule for taking derivatives, he said that mathematicians found a pattern. I proved the damn thing in about 20 seconds on a receipt I had in my pocket. WTF? He has done the same thing for anything anyone asks. He says things without saying anything why, and then people struggle with everything. Like for example, whily doing something about implicit differentiation, when someone asked why they put a d(whatever variable)/dx after whatever variable's derivative, he said "because after x, we put dx/dx which cancels". How does that explain ANYTHING!????? Then I looked at the tests, and I never realized how easy he makes them (same with Calc II, which I can actually make a valid comparison with). They are so straight forward, like, take the derivative of this (its a simple function). Or, if the radius of a sphere is increasing at 3cm/s, what is the rate of increase in volume at r=5cm? All of the problems have been previously covered in class.

Also, he fails to even mention sinh, cosh, tanh, etc. When I walked into my first Calc II test at UA, I missed a ****load of points because I didnt know ANYTHING about hyperbolic sines and cosines.

[Pythagorean]

...anyone worth a damn isint going to waste their time teaching to get min. wage, when they can make double the amount doing real work.

Those who can do, those who can't teach.

exceptions:

the physics professors at my university who work for DOD and are required to teach as part of the deal for their 300+ k a year.

OR

My political economy teacher is one of the few political scientists to run for a political position. He ran for the board of education, and succeeded three times in a row, made political economy part of the core, and chose to teach the 100 level core class because he thinks its important information for everyone to know. He has a TA from a higher course he teaches too.

Do you really believe there's not a lot of teachers like this elsewhere in the world who actually think quality education is important.. ?

[Ivan Seeking]

I think we need to consider what things look like from the teacher's side of the classroom.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeyhair.jpg

[chrisdimassi]

A great example is the calculus teacher at my high school.

I took Calculus I with him last year, second semester. I thought that he was a pretty good teacher because my previous math teachers were worse than him. I received an A in the course without much trouble. Over the summer, I took Calculus II taught by a grad student. This grad student was by FAR my favorite math teacher I have ever had. He explained everything in a very logical order, in a way that makes you understand immediately if you are thinking along quickly enough. He proved almost everything that he wrote (theorems and rules and such). The final grade in the course consisted of four tests and ten quizes. I payed very close attention in class and thought along with everything that he said, and he did a very good job convering a plethora of topics in one class thoroughly. Due to this, I glanced over my notes everyday for about 10 minutes, and was ready for the next day. I studied for a few hours before tests, but nothing too major. I spoke with several of the students in the course, and the ones who had trouble were the ones who weren't following along with the grad student as well as others were. In the end, only two people out of the class of 35 received an A, me being one of them. The tests were seriously difficult. The final was insane. I loved how he had problems on there which we were never taught and weren't in the book, but you could figure out if you understood well enough and throught it through. After this, I took differential equations. I didn't take the prerequisite, which was multivariable calculus, but some math director dude said it should be fine. Should be... I took differential equations and had a good professor, not as good as the grad student, but good none the less. So I go through the extremely challenging course, studying at least 3 hours a night, and end up with a D (about class average...). I did what I could, but the fact that it was a summer course (5 weeks long), and that it was very heavily based on multivariable calc, just turned out to be too much.

SO where am I getting at?

I now tutor for the Calculus I class at my high school. I never realized how horrible of a teacher the teacher really is. He never explains anything, just states things. When someone asks him a simple question, like how someone came up with the product rule for taking derivatives, he said that mathematicians found a pattern. I proved the damn thing in about 20 seconds on a receipt I had in my pocket. WTF? He has done the same thing for anything anyone asks. He says things without saying anything why, and then people struggle with everything. Like for example, whily doing something about implicit differentiation, when someone asked why they put a d(whatever variable)/dx after whatever variable's derivative, he said "because after x, we put dx/dx which cancels". How does that explain ANYTHING!????? Then I looked at the tests, and I never realized how easy he makes them (same with Calc II, which I can actually make a valid comparison with). They are so straight forward, like, take the derivative of this (its a simple function). Or, if the radius of a sphere is increasing at 3cm/s, what is the rate of increase in volume at r=5cm? All of the problems have been previously covered in class.

Also, he fails to even mention sinh, cosh, tanh, etc. When I walked into my first Calc II test at UA, I missed a ****load of points because I didnt know ANYTHING about hyperbolic sines and cosines.


Thank God for tutors. You understand how important it is for students to have a genuine grasp of the material and you're doing something about it.

It sounds like the one professor you had was a bit burnt out at his job. I guess it does get tiring to repeat the same things, class after class, day after day. It's possible he's even forgotten what all is involved and not always know what he's talking about. I'm sorry that you got ripped off on part of your education. College is expensive!
Public school is probably still much worse but it sounds like colleges aren't without their faults too. For a lot of people, it's just rushing through four years of college, memorizing material in a haze (only to forget a sizable portion of it later). Waving the sheepskin in front of the HR guy at Boeing is the biggest reward. :biggrin:
But seriously, I'm always surprised how much I hear "oh yeah, I learned (insert subject) back in college/high school, I don't remember much of that now."
If I learn something, I want to understand it comprehensively. Sure, nobody can read Newton's mind and know every single "why" to his methods and it's true that some things are just tools to accomplish something else but I'm really not cool with the attitude that says "screw it all, I just want to get through this. I'll memorize only what I'm required to and that's it".
If you comprehend or teach a subject as coherently as is humanly possible, it becomes much more memorable and useful for anything that it gets applied to later on. Either it's important enough to learn thoroughly or not at all.
Thanks for teaching! :approve:

[Cyrus]

For a lot of people, it's just rushing through four years of college, memorizing material in a haze (only to forget a sizable portion of it later). Waving the sheepskin in front of the HR guy at Boeing is the biggest reward.

People like that don't go far in life.


College is expensive!

Not as expensive as ignorance.

Sure, nobody can read Newton's mind and know every single "why" to his methods and it's true that some things are just tools to accomplish something else but I'm really not cool with the attitude that says "screw it all, I just want to get through this.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

[chrisdimassi]

I think we need to consider what things look like from the teacher's side of the classroom.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeyhair.jpg

True, teachers aren't at fault for everything. Some teachers care, some don't and I'm sure most have students who just want a good grade and rush through without really learning. There are things that are out of a teacher's hands, such as the environment of school. It's institutionalization.

There are good teachers, good students, bad teachers and bad students.
Blame where blame is due and credit where credit is due.
Every aspect should be examined and addressed and improvements made.
How to go about that is something I'm not aware of, other than raising teacher's pay and/or implementing better programs for teaching (oh god, I sound like a democrat now!) :eek:

[chrisdimassi]

My gosh you read fast, I just posted that.

"For a lot of people, it's just rushing through four years of college, memorizing material in a haze (only to forget a sizable portion of it later). Waving the sheepskin in front of the HR guy at Boeing is the biggest reward."

People like that don't go far in life.

No they don't and that should not be the point of education. However, to be honest, getting a good job is the reason most people are encouraged/motivated to go to college (it's the reason some parents are willing to pay for college), the learning is secondary. They may only be half-prepared +/- when they get out but figure they will handle the challenges of the job when they get there.


"College is expensive!"

Not as expensive as ignorance.

True. Sad that his professor didn't do his part, isn't it.



"Sure, nobody can read Newton's mind and know every single "why" to his methods and it's true that some things are just tools to accomplish something else but I'm really not cool with the attitude that says "screw it all, I just want to get through this."

I don't understand what you mean by this?

Which part?
Maybe every single thing can't be analyzed or that we know every aspect of what was in the mathematician's mind but I think it's still important to do that to the best of one's capability, it makes the content more meaningful and memorable.

[Cyrus]

Maybe single thing can't be analyzed or that we know every aspect of what was in the mathematician's mind but I think it's still important to do that to the best of one's capability, it makes the content more meaningful and memorable.

Well, I still don't understand what you mean by this. If you have a good teacher the theory should be well understood in the students mind.

You learn a little of everything in undergrad, if you want to learn a lot about something you go to grad school.

[berkeman]

Interesting thread. For my two cents, I think that some of the best teachers are those who have to make their living using the subject matter, not as teachers, but as practicing scientists or engineers or technicians or whatever.

When you use something every day in your highly technical work, you really have to have developed an intuitive understanding of the how and the why and the underpinnings and motivations and visualizations for the subject. I'm not a teacher per se, but I certainly end up tutoring (students from grammar school through college) or mentoring other EEs in their work, and I think I do a good job at it because I use these technical skills every day in my work, and have had to develop a comfortable, thorough understanding of the math and physics involved. When you have had to develop the mental imagery and mental tools to understand a subject well enough to use it every day in your work (and hopefully not make any mistakes), then you can usually do a good job of explaining and motivating a subject in a new learner.

Like, when I explain transmission line theory to a new EE at work, I can talk about lots of practical pertubations and their effects on both simulated and measured signal quality, eye diagrams, etc. Or if I'm tutoring a new EE in doing more complicated SPICE simulations, I can motivate and illustrate the points with lots of practical talking points that we can do on-screen, or walk out into the lab and set up with instrumentation, or both. And when I'm helping high school students with calculus or graphing functions or word problems, I can bring lots of mental imagery and other mental tools into the discussion, and adjust my discussion real-time, depending on what the student is understanding and what they are having trouble with.

To paraphrase Cyrus's tounge-in-cheek (Grrrrr) comment, "Those that do it well and are motivated make the best teachers."

[Chi Meson]

I have often made comments on this topic.

As far as High School teachers go, I is my observation (as one) that about a third are good to great, a third are crap, and a third are "doing an OK job but they could be a lot better but the system has given them no impetus to do anything more than the absolute minimum."

We really get slammed from all sides. The students (gross generalizations here, my apologies to all) expect everything handed to them in a manner that requires no effort. When they get a B they feel that it is the instructors fault for not teaching them better.

Parents will believe their children before believing any teacher. A student will say "I spent three hours on my homework, and I don't get it." Parents then accuse teachers of being "too hard" and "not explaining well." Actually, the student had the book open for three hours while watching cable TV.

Administrators get calls from angry parents, and they believe the parents and students before they believe the teachers. The teacher is told to "lighten up." If a class has too many D's and F's, the teacher is told to "fix" the grading system. Result is grade inflation.

Meanwhile, students are encouraged by quips such as "those who can't do ..." Encouraged to treat teachers with disdain. Our entire society is the problem. Nearly all of the worst elements of society are crammed into our public school system. IF we want social changes stemming from our schools, we will have to make the job very attractive to the most intelligent, passionate, and energetic young professionals who want a starting salary of $40,000 or less.

[Cyrus]

Hey Chi, (I posted this and then I think I forgot to submit it so I'm retyping it, d'oh!)

In my four years of highschool, I can sadly say that I had only 1 good teacher, the one I mentioned. As for the rest, they were totally useless.

After finishing that joke called high school I seriously want either those four years of my life back, or a refund of the property tax my parents pay that goes to the school system.

It sucks that you get it from all sides, but you are the teacher. If you make it too hard, that's tough s*** for the students. They can study longer or not pass, it's that simple.

Who cares how they feel if they get a B? My professor for Vibrations told us all very clearly on the first day that he does not curve and that an 89.9999% is a B, so don't come crying to him if you get a B with an 89.9 because he wont care and he wont curve.

Why should it be any different for high school kids?

If they dont like it they can go get a job at McDonalds.

[chrisdimassi]

If you have a good teacher the theory should be well understood in the students mind.

Yes, the theory might be well understood if the teacher is competent. The majority of mine were not.
I learned more from a Standard Deviants software DVD on Grammar (for example) than I learned in 12 years of school! That ought to tell you something right there.

Whether it was their fault, they weren't taught correctly themselves, a case of burnout or something was just set against them, I can't say.
A few of them, however, I can state with certainty absolutely did not CARE, though, and I definitely blame those particular ones.

[chrisdimassi]

Interesting thread. For my two cents, I think that some of the best teachers are those who have to make their living using the subject matter, not as teachers, but as practicing scientists or engineers or technicians or whatever.

When you use something every day in your highly technical work, you really have to have developed an intuitive understanding of the how and the why and the underpinnings and motivations and visualizations for the subject. I'm not a teacher per se, but I certainly end up tutoring (students from grammar school through college) or mentoring other EEs in their work, and I think I do a good job at it because I use these technical skills every day in my work, and have had to develop a comfortable, thorough understanding of the math and physics involved. When you have had to develop the mental imagery and mental tools to understand a subject well enough to use it every day in your work (and hopefully not make any mistakes), then you can usually do a good job of explaining and motivating a subject in a new learner.

And when I'm helping high school students with calculus or graphing functions or word problems, I can bring lots of mental imagery and other mental tools into the discussion, and adjust my discussion real-time, depending on what the student is understanding and what they are having trouble with.

That makes a lot of sense. Theory-in-practice helps prevent burnout, it would seem.
Thanks for teaching, you have a very good system. The HS kids will appreciate it when they grow up if they don't already. :smile:

[chrisdimassi]

I have often made comments on this topic.

As far as High School teachers go, It is my observation (as one) that about a third are good to great, a third are crap, and a third are "doing an OK job but they could be a lot better but the system has given them no impetus to do anything more than the absolute minimum."

We really get slammed from all sides. The students (gross generalizations here, my apologies to all) expect everything handed to them in a manner that requires no effort. When they get a B they feel that it is the instructors fault for not teaching them better.

Parents will believe their children before believing any teacher. A student will say "I spent three hours on my homework, and I don't get it." Parents then accuse teachers of being "too hard" and "not explaining well." Actually, the student had the book open for three hours while watching cable TV.

Administrators get calls from angry parents, and they believe the parents and students before they believe the teachers. The teacher is told to "lighten up." If a class has too many D's and F's, the teacher is told to "fix" the grading system. Result is grade inflation.

Meanwhile, students are encouraged by quips such as "those who can't do ..." Encouraged to treat teachers with disdain. Our entire society is the problem. Nearly all of the worst elements of society are crammed into our public school system. IF we want social changes stemming from our schools, we will have to make the job very attractive to the most intelligent, passionate, and energetic young professionals who want a starting salary of $40,000 or less.


LOL, my parents would have never blamed my school or teachers, only me. I guess it never occured to them to find a tutor.
I had difficulty concentrating (still do to a certain extent), dyslexia (occasionally still struggle with it when writing) but otherwise, I think I would have done much better in school if I'd been tutored.
However, it can be argued that it is the job of the teacher to make tutors unnecessary. That will never completely happen of course but it should become a goal.

The two teachers that I had that were good (briefly...we moved a lot), I really appreciated. One of them had a REALLY bad temper (terrified the whole class sometimes, lol!) but god, could that guy teach! He made it clear, he made it interesting and he made sure everyone knew what the hell they were doing and why!

Teachers should earn more than what they do but I am still thinking that Berkeman's post is an interesting idea. Teaching class after class, hour after hour, could get very boring even for the most creatively intelligent of teachers.
Something that involved the real world and workplace (not just one or two field trips once a year) would break up the monotony for both teacher and student.
Has anyone suggested this type of change for the school system?

Also, are there seminars for teachers to learn new ways of teaching, just as doctors and hairdressers do throughout their career? Just curious.

[Astronuc]

As far as High School teachers go, I is my observation (as one) that about a third are good to great, a third are crap, and a third are "doing an OK job but they could be a lot better but the system has given them no impetus to do anything more than the absolute minimum."

We really get slammed from all sides. The students (gross generalizations here, my apologies to all) expect everything handed to them in a manner that requires no effort. When they get a B they feel that it is the instructors fault for not teaching them better.

Parents will believe their children before believing any teacher. A student will say "I spent three hours on my homework, and I don't get it." Parents then accuse teachers of being "too hard" and "not explaining well." Actually, the student had the book open for three hours while watching cable TV.

Administrators get calls from angry parents, and they believe the parents and students before they believe the teachers. The teacher is told to "lighten up." If a class has too many D's and F's, the teacher is told to "fix" the grading system. Result is grade inflation.

Meanwhile, students are encouraged by quips such as "those who can't do ..." Encouraged to treat teachers with disdain. Our entire society is the problem. Nearly all of the worst elements of society are crammed into our public school system. IF we want social changes stemming from our schools, we will have to make the job very attractive to the most intelligent, passionate, and energetic young professionals who want a starting salary of $40,000 or less. That's pretty much what I have observed, but that's more so the case than it was 30 years ago. While there is emphasis on grades, there is little emphasis on the hard work and learning that is required to achieve the grades. Teachers do catch it from all sides, shortchanged by school boards and administrations, little or no support or interest from parents, and indifference or apathy from students. Now it's not all students, parents or school boards/administrators - there are exceptions. There are some students who want to learn, e.g. the top 5-10% who take one or more honors courses, and the portion of parents who participate in PTA and volunteer in the schools, and the portion of school boards/administrators who do support excellence in education and other programs - but they are still too few - they are the exception, not the rule.

I was fortunate to have many excellent teachers, most of whom taught the major works/honors and AP courses. In math and science, we learned the theory, not just crunching numbers. The math and science teachers were good friends, so the chemistry and physics teachers new what the students were being taught in calculus, and vice versa.

I wonder how many professional parents would take a day off from work and give a lecture in the classroom. I wonder how many school districts would encourage or accomodate such a program.

[Moonbear]

That's pretty much what I have observed, but that's more so the case than it was 30 years ago. While there is emphasis on grades, there is little emphasis on the hard work and learning that is required to achieve the grades. Teachers do catch it from all sides, shortchanged by school boards and administrations, little or no support or interest from parents, and indifference or apathy from students. Now it's not all students, parents or school boards/administrators - there are exceptions. There are some students who want to learn, e.g. the top 5-10% who take one or more honors courses, and the portion of parents who participate in PTA and volunteer in the schools, and the portion of school boards/administrators who do support excellence in education and other programs - but they are still too few - they are the exception, not the rule.
And the students are carrying those crappy attitudes about learning into college with them too. They think they can whine and weedle their way to a higher grade without any effort. No, not all, but it's more and more every year.

I was trying to figure out what was going through the minds of a couple of students today. They were camped out in the hall outside the office of one of the other faculty, and one was calling his office from their cell phone to tell him they were sitting outside waiting. :confused: Were they planning to ambush him as he arrived back? I decided to take pity on them and inform them that he would not be back in the office until next Wednesday, because I wasn't entirely sure if they were going to just sit there all day waiting or what. I'm sure they'll be whining that he wasn't around at their beck and call to answer questions when they obviously hadn't planned ahead with as much as a phone call to inquire if he had time to meet.

I was fortunate to have many excellent teachers, most of whom taught the major works/honors and AP courses. In math and science, we learned the theory, not just crunching numbers. The math and science teachers were good friends, so the chemistry and physics teachers new what the students were being taught in calculus, and vice versa.
I was also fortunate to have excellent teachers throughout school. Only one stands out in my mind as an especially bad teacher....my 9th grade biology teacher. In the first progress report in the first quarter of the class, he recommended to my parents that I should drop the class because I just didn't have the aptitude for the subject :rofl: I've always wanted to track him down and pay a visit to tell him just how wrong he was. He was such a miserable teacher, and the entire class hated him. He just simply had a mean streak. If I didn't already have an interest in the subject before taking his class, that might have turned me off for good. I wonder how many other students were turned off biology by him.

One example that always sticks out in mind: we did some "lab" project with peanuts. I don't remember what the lab was, but at the end, someone asked if we could eat the leftover peanuts. To our surprise, he said, "Yes." So, while we were finishing up writing up our results, we munched on peanuts. He then went around the room and deducted a point for every peanut we ate, telling us we should have known it was against safety rules to eat in the lab! :grumpy: When we naturally protested that he gave us permission, he told us he said we "could" eat them, not that we "should" or "were allowed to" eat them. He had to take off about a month for surgery, and you've never seen students so happy to have a substitute teacher! Since it was an extended absence, we had a sub who really knew the subject, not just who gave us busy work, and we learned so much more in his absence.

Another example of how much of a jerk he was...my father died during that year. Our notebooks were due for grading less than a week after the funeral, and of course I had missed several days of school, so mine was not complete (notebooks included class notes, ungraded homework, etc.). He still expected I would have mine ready to submit on time. I still remember sitting at home, bawling my eyes out, scrambling to get assignments completed, and trying to get the notes I missed copied from my friends so I could turn it in on time. I got the thing done and turned in, but my mom still decided to call my guidance counselor about it (she was more worried I might be suicidal, which is why she called the guidance counselor rather than the teacher :rolleyes: ...murderous maybe, suicidal no)... AFTER it was turned in, and the guidance counselor talked to the teacher about it, he came up to me and asked if I needed more time to work on it.

The only other teacher that comes to mind as I think about bad teachers was a distant second...he was our world history teacher who was just boring...at least once we got over the quiz on the first day of school. He graded it, gave us all the zeros we earned on it, and then told us he just wanted to confirm we were starting out knowing nothing on the subject and we'd all be able to answer those questions by the end of the year, and tossed the quizzes into the circular file.

I think the fact that the bad teachers stand out in my mind the most highlights how many good, great, and excellent teachers I had.

I wonder how many professional parents would take a day off from work and give a lecture in the classroom. I wonder how many school districts would encourage or accomodate such a program.
There's more to teaching than just taking a day off work to talk to kids about what you do. My AP biology teacher (the one in senior year, not the one I mentioned above) tried that one day with a former student who came back to visit. It was the worst class we had that year. I think our mouths were just hanging open in shock at how horrendous this person was at teaching us. The next day, our teacher's only comment was, "I guess I won't do that again." :rofl:

There's one caveat as well to Berkeman's observation about people who work in the field teaching a subject. That part he mentioned about things becoming second nature or intuitive when you do them for a living can also be a drawback for teaching. I've been taught by professors who you could just tell were brilliant in their field, but who would forget that what is intuitive to them is NOT intuitive to the students, and needs to be spelled out step-by-step. On the other hand, the person I worked with for my post-doc is absolutely outstanding at walking people through each step of a concept. He does this both in the classroom and when giving seminars and talks at conferences, and even when training the people working in his lab. One needs to learn to teach as much as one needs to learn the subject they are teaching.

[scorpa]

I definitely had my fair share of bad teachers in my elementary/junior high/high school (I went to the same school for every grade).

My french teacher in senior high couldnt speak a word of the language, we had a french exchange student come to our school for a couple months and the teacher couldn't even hold a small conversation with her, and the student told us all of the french she had written on the board for us was completely wrong. I took French until grade 11, when they decided to cancel the program. So I essentially went through all of those years for nothing.

One teacher was completely incompetent couldn't teach anything to any body and tended to throw tantrums in the middle of class, and tell us her life story about how she wanted to get a husband and have a baby.

Another one was this creepy middle aged woman who thought a good style was a thin, pale yellow sundress with a black thong underneath...ewww.

There were so many other bad teachers at my school I don't even have the space to write about them. So I will write about 2 of the best teachers I ever had there instead.

My English/Biology/Chemistry/Math teacher was just plain awesome. She always did her best to help everyone in whatever she could. Great teacher, even took us on a field trip to a DNA lab, which we all thought was the coolest thing ever. She definitely sparked my interest in science! I had to take calculus by distance learning because my school didnt offer it and only 2 of us wanted to take it, but instead of saying you are on your own she got the books and learned it along with us, always staying enough ahead that she could help us out if we needed it :) We were lucky that we didnt have to take physics by DLP like we did Calc, there was only 3 of us taking it, and the principal at the time (who was an idiot) wanted to cancel the class because apparently it is pointless to only teach 3 people.

My other great teacher was actually the principal who only stayed for 2 years, he taught us english in grade 9. Everyone loved him. If you ever wanted to talk to him you could just walk into his office anytime, and he would always be out in the hallway talking to the students, joining in conversations. He was really a great guy. He made a lot of changed to our school for the better.

My favorite teacher of all time however, was my organic chem professor. This guy is amazing. He is a top prof at our university and is only required to teach one class a year, the rest of the time he spends on his research. Grad students fight for his lab I'm sure. He was so enthusiastic about the subject, when you asked him a question he didn't even need to think about the answer he just knew it! He would always stop and ask if there were any questions, and he really did want you to ask and didn't ever make anyone feel stupid for asking. If someone didn't get the way he explained it the first time he could turn around and explain it in a completely different way that made more sense to the student. He told us the first day that if we ever needed help in the subject don't hesistate to come and see him, and if we just want to talk something interesting we found out or wanted more info on, or if we just wanted to talk to him about graduate education in chemistry and getting to research. He totally sparked my interest in organic chemistry, it is my favorite subject now.

[GeorginaS]

Another example of how much of a jerk he was...my father died during that year. Our notebooks were due for grading less than a week after the funeral, and of course I had missed several days of school, so mine was not complete (notebooks included class notes, ungraded homework, etc.). He still expected I would have mine ready to submit on time. I still remember sitting at home, bawling my eyes out, scrambling to get assignments completed, and trying to get the notes I missed copied from my friends so I could turn it in on time.

I realise that was a long time ago, but wow does that story ever make me want to smack that guy.

One needs to learn to teach as much as one needs to learn the subject they are teaching.

Now see, that is an accurate statement. I don't care how brilliant you are in an area of study and learning, if you don't know how to teach, you aren't going to be able to impart what you know on other people. I've run into that over and over again and am mid-that right now with a philosophy prof. Evidently he knows what he's talking about; getting that information across to the rest of us isn't working out well. I'm avoiding this class like mad this term, and I really enjoy philosophy, and I take courses for the fun of it in the first place. This is sucking hugely.

He actually stood at the front of the class a couple of weeks ago, after just having spent an hour trying to explain a concept by repeating it the same way over and over again, he leaned back against the white board and said, "I don't get why none of you are understanding this". To which I wanted to say, "because you're doing a piss-poor job of explaining it, is why". Bleh.

Yeah, knowing your subject and knowing how to teach are two entirely different monsters. And teaching is a skill and a gift too.

Weren't we talking about Dr. Phil?

[Danger]

Weren't we talking about Dr. Phil?
I haven't even read this thread, given the title. I got a glimpse of Scorpa's post, though, so I'll look into it later. I strongly suspect that "Dr." Phil changed his last name to McGraw from the original McCrevas. It's strange that you never hear him speak of his partner, Dr. Ben Dover.

[Pythagorean]

I love/hate Dr. Phil

[Chi Meson]

All I know of Dr. Phil is that my mother thinks he's the best person in the world. My mother (the passive-agressive, neurotic, smoker-drinker, complainer etc etc) is often found giving other people some second-hand Dr. Phil advice. Her faovorite Dr. Phil phrase is "what is it you're pretending not to understand?"

[In all fairness, my mother came from an alcoholic Scottish family and she lost her father during WWII, but he wasn't killed in the war--the worst of both worlds; I think she's allowed a little neuroses]

[Astronuc]

There's more to teaching than just taking a day off work to talk to kids about what you do. My AP biology teacher (the one in senior year, not the one I mentioned above) tried that one day with a former student who came back to visit. It was the worst class we had that year. I think our mouths were just hanging open in shock at how horrendous this person was at teaching us. The next day, our teacher's only comment was, "I guess I won't do that again." Well there is that. :rolleyes: I wasn't so much thinking about a professional parent talking about what they do, as much as giving a lecture on topic being discussed in class, e.g. a mechanical engineer or physicist giving a lecture on heat transfer when the students are covering thermodynamics - but with 'real world' examples.

There's one caveat as well to Berkeman's observation about people who work in the field teaching a subject. That part he mentioned about things becoming second nature or intuitive when you do them for a living can also be a drawback for teaching. I've been taught by professors who you could just tell were brilliant in their field, but who would forget that what is intuitive to them is NOT intuitive to the students, and needs to be spelled out step-by-step. Definitely people need to learn how to teach, and to be able to teach, one has to know the 'whys' as well as the 'whats' and 'hows'. I sometimes think that is what is missing in education - teaching effective methods of teaching.

My french teacher in senior high couldnt speak a word of the language, we had a french exchange student come to our school for a couple months and the teacher couldn't even hold a small conversation with her, and the student told us all of the french she had written on the board for us was completely wrong. I took French until grade 11, when they decided to cancel the program. So I essentially went through all of those years for nothing. During my first year of university I took a class in German grammar taught by a graduate student, or assistant professor, who was like that French teacher. I am not sure of the competence with regard to German, because the teacher talked almost exclusively in English, and spent most of the time remeniscing about grad school and trips to German speaking countries. I could have gotten so much more if the teacher had spoken German. I did take a subsequent class in which the teacher only spoke German, but at that point, the loss of not speaking German for a semester really put me at a disadvantage.

One teacher was completely incompetent couldn't teach anything to any body and tended to throw tantrums in the middle of class, and tell us her life story about how she wanted to get a husband and have a baby. :rolleyes:

Another one was this creepy middle aged woman who thought a good style was a thin, pale yellow sundress with a black thong underneath...ewww. :surprised :yuck:

[chrisdimassi]

My french teacher in senior high couldnt speak a word of the language, we had a french exchange student come to our school for a couple months and the teacher couldn't even hold a small conversation with her, and the student told us all of the french she had written on the board for us was completely wrong. I took French until grade 11, when they decided to cancel the program. So I essentially went through all of those years for nothing.

One teacher was completely incompetent couldn't teach anything to any body and tended to throw tantrums in the middle of class, and tell us her life story about how she wanted to get a husband and have a baby.

Another one was this creepy middle aged woman who thought a good style was a thin, pale yellow sundress with a black thong underneath...ewww.

There were so many other bad teachers at my school I don't even have the space to write about them. So I will write about 2 of the best teachers I ever had there instead.

My English/Biology/Chemistry/Math teacher was just plain awesome. She always did her best to help everyone in whatever she could. Great teacher, even took us on a field trip to a DNA lab, which we all thought was the coolest thing ever. She definitely sparked my interest in science! I had to take calculus by distance learning because my school didnt offer it and only 2 of us wanted to take it, but instead of saying you are on your own she got the books and learned it along with us, always staying enough ahead that she could help us out if we needed it :) We were lucky that we didnt have to take physics by DLP like we did Calc, there was only 3 of us taking it, and the principal at the time (who was an idiot) wanted to cancel the class because apparently it is pointless to only teach 3 people.

My other great teacher was actually the principal who only stayed for 2 years, he taught us english in grade 9. Everyone loved him. If you ever wanted to talk to him you could just walk into his office anytime, and he would always be out in the hallway talking to the students, joining in conversations. He was really a great guy. He made a lot of changed to our school for the better.

My favorite teacher of all time however, was my organic chem professor. This guy is amazing. He is a top prof at our university and is only required to teach one class a year, the rest of the time he spends on his research. Grad students fight for his lab I'm sure. He was so enthusiastic about the subject, when you asked him a question he didn't even need to think about the answer he just knew it! He would always stop and ask if there were any questions, and he really did want you to ask and didn't ever make anyone feel stupid for asking. If someone didn't get the way he explained it the first time he could turn around and explain it in a completely different way that made more sense to the student. He told us the first day that if we ever needed help in the subject don't hesistate to come and see him, and if we just want to talk something interesting we found out or wanted more info on, or if we just wanted to talk to him about graduate education in chemistry and getting to research. He totally sparked my interest in organic chemistry, it is my favorite subject now.

You should have asked the french teacher "how do you say 'parachute' in french?" :uhh:

I don't think I ever had a teacher who wore a thong but I remember my fifth grade math teacher. She always wore textured black hose (not fishnet exactly but still...) and skirts above the knee, kind of distracting and not very conservative mode of apparel, that was '78. She also talked about her dating life but at least they were only a few minutes.
Her teaching? Awful. Handed out a packet of papers and basically said "here, do them". Not the worst teacher I ever had but definitely not the best.

I've never heard of a principal teaching, that's novel.
Your org chem prof deserves a pat on the back. Maybe students can pitch in for a plaque or other type of award.
I heard on the radio that some teacher got 25 grand for being Teacher of the Year or something. Milkin foundation or something? I'll have to google it.

[chrisdimassi]

I realise that was a long time ago, but wow does that story ever make me want to smack that guy.

Now see, that is an accurate statement. I don't care how brilliant you are in an area of study and learning, if you don't know how to teach, you aren't going to be able to impart what you know on other people. I've run into that over and over again and am mid-that right now with a philosophy prof. Evidently he knows what he's talking about; getting that information across to the rest of us isn't working out well. I'm avoiding this class like mad this term, and I really enjoy philosophy, and I take courses for the fun of it in the first place. This is sucking hugely.

He actually stood at the front of the class a couple of weeks ago, after just having spent an hour trying to explain a concept by repeating it the same way over and over again, he leaned back against the white board and said, "I don't get why none of you are understanding this". To which I wanted to say, "because you're doing a piss-poor job of explaining it, is why". Bleh.

Yeah, knowing your subject and knowing how to teach are two entirely different monsters. And teaching is a skill and a gift too.

Weren't we talking about Dr. Phil?



Sorry, Georgina, I should have put "bad advice from Dr. Phil to a student" in the subject line. Rather, his was really a negative comment, something a professional should know better not to say.

Moonbear's teacher should have been punished. He must not have known why she was absent those days when she returned or else if he did, then he should have been fired. That's beyond insensitive, especially to a female student.

Yes, it's true that someone in a teaching position should keep in mind that other people are blank slates and have little or no reference points. It's very difficult to remember that. Managers and trainers have that problem also. It can be very difficult starting a new job because they forget that the new recruit has very little knowledge and it's a lot of information to assimilate at one time, especially when information gets left out.
Berkeman seems like a diligent teacher, a lot could be learned from his methods.

[chrisdimassi]

It's strange that you never hear him speak of his partner, Dr. Ben Dover.

heh!
:biggrin:

[chrisdimassi]

All I know of Dr. Phil is that my mother thinks he's the best person in the world. My mother (the passive-agressive, neurotic, smoker-drinker, complainer etc etc) is often found giving other people some second-hand Dr. Phil advice. Her faovorite Dr. Phil phrase is "what is it you're pretending not to understand?"

[In all fairness, my mother came from an alcoholic Scottish family and she lost her father during WWII, but he wasn't killed in the war--the worst of both worlds; I think she's allowed a little neuroses]

I have probably watched all of 2 shows of Dr. Phil's but was curious when i heard the IQ Answer author would be guesting. After hearing his advice to the student, I'm wondering what his regular advice is!?

[scorpa]

I've never heard of a principal teaching, that's novel.
Your org chem prof deserves a pat on the back. Maybe students can pitch in for a plaque or other type of award.
I heard on the radio that some teacher got 25 grand for being Teacher of the Year or something. Milkin foundation or something? I'll have to google it.

Our school was so small the principal usually had to teach a class or two, it was usually some stupid class like calm (career and life management) but occasionally they taught something like english. I had one principal that taught us chemistry in grade 11 and 12, he was an idiot and it was hell haha.

My ochem prof was very awesome! He has received the highest teaching and research awards the university has to offer so his good work has definitely been recognized. He is one prof I will definitely never forget, I always couldnt wait for Tuesday or Thursday to come so I could go to the class, it was nothing short of inspiring.

[Chi Meson]

I heard on the radio that some teacher got 25 grand for being Teacher of the Year or something. Milkin foundation or something? I'll have to google it.
The Robert Millikan award is from the AAPT (American Association of Physics Teachers). Given once a year to someone who makes an outstanding contribution to physics pedagogy. Occasionally a high school teacher, but usually a collage professor. The guy behind "Mr. Wizard" won it one year. I think it's only $7500 though.

[Moonbear]

Moonbear's teacher should have been punished. He must not have known why she was absent those days when she returned or else if he did, then he should have been fired. That's beyond insensitive, especially to a female student.
He did know why I was absent. All the teachers were informed of the reason. Though, I'm not sure why it matters whether I was female or male...it would have been just as insensitive for a male student. But even all these years later, a little voice in the back of my head says I should have just punched him in the gut back then. Somehow, I managed to stick with the subject in spite of him, but how many other students were turned off from biology completely because of him?

[scorpa]

He did know why I was absent. All the teachers were informed of the reason. Though, I'm not sure why it matters whether I was female or male...it would have been just as insensitive for a male student. But even all these years later, a little voice in the back of my head says I should have just punched him in the gut back then. Somehow, I managed to stick with the subject in spite of him, but how many other students were turned off from biology completely because of him?


That guy should have been fired, what he did was completely inappropriate. I can't believe someone would be that insensitive :mad:

[chrisdimassi]

He did know why I was absent. All the teachers were informed of the reason. Though, I'm not sure why it matters whether I was female or male...it would have been just as insensitive for a male student. But even all these years later, a little voice in the back of my head says I should have just punched him in the gut back then. Somehow, I managed to stick with the subject in spite of him, but how many other students were turned off from biology completely because of him?

In that case, he definitely should have been fired. Fired whether you were male or female, of course. This isn't politically correct but as a guy and you being female, some would think he should have naturally been more sensitive toward your grief. Very sorry you had to go through that.

[JasonRox]

I was also fortunate to have excellent teachers throughout school. Only one stands out in my mind as an especially bad teacher....my 9th grade biology teacher. In the first progress report in the first quarter of the class, he recommended to my parents that I should drop the class because I just didn't have the aptitude for the subject :rofl: I've always wanted to track him down and pay a visit to tell him just how wrong he was. He was such a miserable teacher, and the entire class hated him. He just simply had a mean streak. If I didn't already have an interest in the subject before taking his class, that might have turned me off for good. I wonder how many other students were turned off biology by him.


I had a similiar experience, but all through high school, except for maybe one or two teachers. All my other teachers thought I was worthless and useless. They even met with my mom personally to tell her that sending me to college/university would be a waste of money. My mother felt the same way, and I'm not happy about that either. I can't believe my mom actually thought the same. The real problem to me was probably because I had a bad group of friends and that I found the material very boring, in the sense that it was very slow at progressing. So, because of the group of friends I was with, I made a habit of not going to class and such.

I passed all my classes except for one mathematics class, but it wasn't necessary to have. And since I took advanced classes, I got accepted to a local college. That summer following my last days in high school was when my life changed. I started making new friends at work and such. All of them going away for school in the upcoming Fall season. They would ask me where I was going to go. When I answered that I was going to the local college, they showed disapointment. They told me I can do so much better and that they thought I was going to like some crazy school on a crazy scholarship because I seemed so bright. So, one day I spent the night at a friends place, and at like 3am he was talking to my other friend who was skill in high school about going to university. Telling him that he can do it, and all you need is a B+ average and you can go somewhere that's good.

I sat there listening. I was thinking... a B+? That's it!? A B+!? Sure, I could have found this out myself, but someone could have taken a minute with me and told me this. No teacher thought of talking to me about my bad habits and laziness. They just didn't seem to care whatsoever. Anyways, I'm sitting here listening to a student encouraging another student to do his best and telling him straight up what to do. Not once in my life have I ever seen a teacher do this, unless it was a teacher's "pet". I will truly never forget this day and night.

After that, I decided that I was going to go to college and show up to all my classes. When classes first started, we needed to take a math test to separate the "slower" students from the "faster" students. I had a few fellow classmates from high school writing the test with me. They all did fairly well in high school, but I guess chose to go to college. Anyways, I was the only one from us to go the advanced class. I was confused! I failed mathematics and never went to my classes to begin with, so how in the world can they score lower than I?! Anyways, life went on. I showed up to all my classes and did my work. Later, I started tutoring Accounting and Business Law. Finished the term with a high average, and then applied to a top business school.

Later, I got accepted in this school. In order to go there, I had to take Calculus. I was nervous about it because in high school they talked about how hard it was, and one the top students even dropped out of it. Nevertheless, I signed for a Calculus course that was independent study. They would send me the book to learn from, and then a few months later I would meet up with someone to write the exam. I figured this was best because going to class would take up so much time. As I was doing this class, I realized how amazing math was. The simple idea of having a maximum or a value for the tangent line was neat! Nevermind the area underneath a curve! (I got an A in the course.) :eek:

So, I started having doubts of whether or not business was for me, because of Calculus. The real turn around happened when I paid my first visit to the local library. I decided to do this because I liked watching science shows and such. Unfortunately, they never seem to play. I was growing really annoyed by this. By getting a book, you can watch a science "show" whenever you want. :approve: I picked up "Asimov on Astronomy" by Isaac Asimov. That book changed my life in every way. I'll probably buy the book soon from the library, in exchange for a donation. :tongue:

After that, I dropped the acceptance to the business school. Went to college one more year and applied for Physics and Mathematics. Later, dropping Physics because I hated numbers and labs.

Today, I am now a 3rd year mathematics major. Yes, I failed mathematics in high school. I'm a TA for a second year Linear Algebra course after being recommended by a professor. :biggrin: I'm on the Dean's Honour List, and I love my subject to death. But the thing I'm truly grateful for is the professor I had last year, he helped show me the talent that I had. That in itself was very important for me. I owe lots to him too.

I'm doing great now, but the past does still haunt me. Habits are still hard to get over, but when I'm bored, I'm bored. Sometimes I also feel like the foundation of knowledge I'm building upon is weak. I need to learn that's it's fine to be weak in areas and such, and that I will get them later.

During all this time, I worked on average 34 hours a week. It was hell. I did this even during college when I tutored! I made two attempts to transfer to a better university, but money always became a problem. (I hope the chair doesn't hate me. :grumpy: ) Last year, I broke down after years of hard work. I couldn't handle it anymore, so I stopped working.

The TA job was my big break. It allowed me to continue on and not work many hours. Otherwise, I would soon have to start working many hours. :cry: Plus, it is a job that I enjoy doing. So, I'm doing great now.

So, yeah. I know the feeling of just going back to my old high school (just down a few streets) and slapping them in the face. One little talk with me changed my life, and I know it could have. My grade 9-10 science noticed that I thoroughly enjoyed science and gave me Astronomy/Science magazines for me to read and enjoy. This came out of his own pocket. Unfortunately for me, he disapeared and I have not heard of him since Grade 10.

It gets even worse. In the past week or so, I learned of something new. When I was child, I was pulled out of class once in awhile to work on speech skills and things like that. My mom thought low me at that point because I was in this "special" class. My mom reminded me about this time a few weeks ago and asked if I remembered. I said yeah, but vaguely. Then she told me about that one day the teacher of the "special" class pulled her aside when I was in class, and said that I was gifted. (In a good way of course.:tongue2: ) To me that was a shock because my mom did nothing about this AT ALL! Decides to tell me this once I have achieved something for myself?! Why didn't she cultivate this?! I asked her this and she said that I was headed in health problems. Yeah, I was losing my ability to hear! Big freaking deal, that doesn't mean I'm going dumb!

This has explained so much of my past and current habits. First, when I was kid, I would ask many many many questions. Annoying, yes, but they weren't stupid questions. They were things like "what happened to the Dinosaurs?" and things of curiosity. I remember that one particularly, and you'll learn why. My mom answered that question by saying the Dinosaurs became all female species and then couldn't reproduce. I even remember that day in the car trying to "rationally" deduce this. I couldn't make any sense of it. I read all these things about dinosaurs, and not once this anything remotely close to this popped up. A decade or so after that day, I learned from my mom that she was very annoyed with my questions and that she would make up answers to shut me up. I didn't know what to think at that point, but a lot of false answers popped up in my mind. I carried this knowledge around thinking it was true. Slowly everything got corrected from this I learned as more plausible and/or reading books that told be otherwise.

This still has its presence today. I have the habit of not trusting anyone's knowledge. If someone tells me something, I normally sit there "shuffling" through my knowledge (in my head) and see if it's plausible/true before accepting it. I lost the trust in people because they have lied to me ever since I was little. I am getting over this, but it seems to happen without even being aware of it.

The second thing that this explains is why I was always bored. The best way to explain this was my Grade 9 mathematics class. I got bored in that class lots of times, or everyday. :cool: I never did assignments, or even looked at them. But when tests came around, I always did among the top in the class. I was even accused of cheating by the teacher during a test! He didn't like the idea of a student not doing assignments and doing well on tests. He grew suspicious, obviously. I did well in Grade 9. I had a good average, but that diminished as I explained earlier. Anyways, this explained why I did well on that math college entrance test. The little time that I went to class was enough for me apparently.

There is just so much! I am disapointed in what my mom did, and what my teachers did. (My dad, well he's never around and I don't like him too.)

I'd say that my professor of last year was one the best things that has happened in a long time. It really did feel great hearing the things he said. I hope I don't let him down now. :redface:

[chrisdimassi]

The Robert Millikan award is from the AAPT (American Association of Physics Teachers). Given once a year to someone who makes an outstanding contribution to physics pedagogy. Occasionally a high school teacher, but usually a collage professor. The guy behind "Mr. Wizard" won it one year. I think it's only $7500 though.

Finally found it Teacher wins 25 K (http://www.doe.mass.edu/news/news.asp?id=3094)
She's an english teacher though.

Found another one from back in May (physics this time) Arizona teacher (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/mesa/articles/0601gr-milken0531Z11.html)

That's probably close to what they make a year :frown:
It's good that someone's awarding that, though.

[chrisdimassi]

That's an interesting scholastic background, JasonRox. My only parent to ever give me any bit of general encouragement was my mother, also. She corrected my spelling, grammar and pronunciation relentlessly. :rolleyes:
That's about it.
It's too bad I never had a tutor. To the ones who do, be grateful.

[Chi Meson]

Finally found it Teacher wins 25 K (http://www.doe.mass.edu/news/news.asp?id=3094)
She's an english teacher though.

Found another one from back in May (physics this time) Arizona teacher (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/mesa/articles/0601gr-milken0531Z11.html)

That's probably close to what they make a year :frown:
It's good that someone's awarding that, though.
Oh, you mean "Milken." Oh. Well, that's different.

[Chi Meson]

Interesting.

Just today, one of our Biology teachers was fuming. She had been wrist-slapped for being too hard on her students. Seems as though an "A student" who had failed all of the tests so far got a "C" for his first progress report (an unofficial grading period). The mother complained how the other biology teachers did not grade as hard as she did. She was told that she needed to lighten up.

Imagine now if you will a teacher who has to face this fact: she gave a C to a student who has failed three tests, and she must "lighten up."

[Cyrus]

I told my vibrations professor the last HW was very hard (and it was) and he told me its good because we need to stop outsourcing all the jobs, we need more smart people. I told him I was sick and the hw took me twice as long, he said "sir, no excuses. You are young, you are invincible."

You guys really are not preparing your students for college or the real world.

Tell that mother to get lost.

[Chi Meson]

Tell that mother to get lost.
WHile I totally agree, I have to pont out...

We can't say that.

[Cyrus]

how about telling her #@$%&%@#@&**&%#@ :rofl:

Tell her sorry, thats the way it is. Now dont let the door hit you on the way out. You see why
I have no respect for public schools...

I think teahers should have the power to smack their students in the head for acting stupid. They do that in the rest of the world. :rofl: aahhhhh, good times.

[chrisdimassi]

Oh, you mean "Milken." Oh. Well, that's different.

At least they're all doing something good. Bet they're getting a tax break but what the hell, it's all good...:biggrin:

[chrisdimassi]

Interesting.

Just today, one of our Biology teachers was fuming. She had been wrist-slapped for being too hard on her students. Seems as though an "A student" who had failed all of the tests so far got a "C" for his first progress report (an unofficial grading period). The mother complained how the other biology teachers did not grade as hard as she did. She was told that she needed to lighten up.

Imagine now if you will a teacher who has to face this fact: she gave a C to a student who has failed three tests, and she must "lighten up."


I'm shocked that parents ever complain about how the grading is going. I thought the whole PTA thing was supposed to be getting together with the teachers to discuss the student's study habits and how to improve them, etc...?

If your school allows it, invite the mother to come audit the class. If she really cares about her kid, she should. Her workplace would certainly let her off one day for that. Then she can see for herself what the kid is doing and how the class is being taught.
There are many stories of bad teachers (as we've all seen here) but the fault being the teacher's isn't the first conclusion the parent should jump to without first investigating and participating, if possible.

[JasonRox]

I'm shocked that parents ever complain about how the grading is going. I thought the whole PTA thing was supposed to be getting together with the teachers to discuss the student's study habits and how to improve them, etc...?

If your school allows it, invite the mother to come audit the class. If she really cares about her kid, she should. Her workplace would certainly let her off one day for that. Then she can see for herself what the kid is doing and how the class is being taught.
There are many stories of bad teachers (as we've all seen here) but the fault being the teacher's isn't the first conclusion the parent should jump to without first investigating and participating, if possible.

That's why I won't teach the high school level. I don't have the patience to work with illogical and stupid parents/people.