Town Battles 'Demonic' Mystery Blazes [Archive]

Ivan Seeking

Feb11-04, 08:30 PM

First guess: The report is bogus.

If this is true and not just a series of unlikely coincidences then obviously it would be quite amazing! The skeptical argument seems to be that the furniture was ignited by appliances or cigarettes, a few or many people are exaggerating, and we have some sort of mass hysteria setting in. I almost expect to hear that some single source or event ignited this whole episode…so to speak. Perhaps a local legend comes into play.

This all sounds like the making of a some future Sociology PhD’s.

zoobyshoe

Feb11-04, 11:21 PM

Well, I prefer to speculate along the lines of some exceptionally peculiar, but natural phenomena. That part of the world is quite volcanic. I propose that piezo-electric spikes created by volcanic stresses in the bedrock are inducing current in various metal conductors around the house in the range of frequencies you would need to get sparks to jump. The sparks then start the fires. I wouldn't be surprised if a new volcano suddenly forms in that town tomorrow.

megashawn

Feb13-04, 07:01 PM

I think this one is related;

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=2&u=/nm/20040213/od_nm/italy_exorcism_dc

hahaha

zoobyshoe

Feb13-04, 07:39 PM

Or this:

Volcano webcams, Mount Etna, Stromboli and Vulcano in Sicily 2003
Address:http://volcanos.sicilian.net/

These pictures look pretty hellish:

Ring of Fire Volcanos: Travel photos, diaries & quotes (Reizen foto's reisverslagen vulkaan)
Address:http://home.planet.nl/~monique.schilders/europe/volcanoes_e.html

Click on the pics to see that they are of Mt. Etna, Sicily, erupting in 2001, except for one of Stroboli erupting (Island near Sicily.)

mouseonmoon

Feb14-04, 06:45 AM

quote
-----
First guess: The report is bogus.
---------

Ivan,Please! [*(]
I thought you were a true skeptic!

I believe the 'report' is at least 95% accurate-
And again, the explanation will be found among
the "conspiracy" files.

1. local policeman who did not want to be named

This is preposterous--as is his 'story'--seeing " unplugged electrical cables burst into flames with my own eyes...."

conclusion: not a policeman--and obviously part of the 'story'--one of the 'main characters' in fact!!

2."I've seen things like this before," the exorcist reports. "Demons occupy a house and appear in electrical goods.....

fact: Exorcists are having a hard time these days finding anything to do-good chance this guy will be shifted to another 'department' if something doesn't 'come up' soon.....may even be transferred to another country!.....he's got a gravy job and getting anxious.

3. Get a description of this 'policeman' and compare with exorcist==wahla!==case solved!
======
((and that's how a 'real skeptic' solves a case-you gotta investigate---you gotta 'put things together'--simply scouffing at these 'reports' and dismissing the "panic" of the locals will never 'solve' anything!

Any Pelicans reported in the area-that'd be another story.
======

i'm about to report on a fasinating "UFO" case in India-trying to find time to 'put it together'
wish i coulda been there in person-but i'm tied to this rockin chair--darn difficult situation--
tongued typed..... m x c v b n z

Vodka

Feb15-04, 06:21 PM

this isn't entirely a debunk, but yahoo news [from what i know] is known for the amount of garbage it posts on its website, so its usually an unreliable source. [g)] hehe that smiley rules [:D]

Ivan Seeking

Feb15-04, 06:28 PM

Welcome Vodka. [a)]

Mouseonmoon,
I am looking forward to your UFO report. I have been really buried with work lately and I have had little time for the important subjects.[6)]

firefly

Feb17-04, 10:59 AM

blurb provided by the Agenzia Nazionale Stampa Associata (ANSA), a well respected italian news service. not very technical i'm afraid, but dismisses demonic theories. fyi, the Protezione Civile is also a nationwide civil protection agency service, involved in studying natural phenomena as well as assisting victims in the case of natural disasters.

from http://www.ansa.it/regionali/sicilia/2004-02-17_927978.html:(translated)

Unexplained fires: the Protezione Civile, natural phenomena

(ANSAweb) - PALERMO, 17 FEB - The regional branch of the Protezione Civile affirms they have scientifically resolved the mystery of the inexplicable fires in the Canneto district of Caronia. It would consist of a natural phenomenon, albeit rare. At Canneto, even after having disconnected the homes from the electrical network, appliances, mattresses, and even houses were inexplicably catching fire. It is a known electrotechnical phenomenon. (ANSAweb).

2004-02-17 - 14:06:00

Edited translation for accuracy at GMT 17:10 on Feb 17.

zoobyshoe

Feb17-04, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by firefly
http://www.ansa.it/regionali/sicilia/2004-02-17_927978.html:
Thanks for the blurb and translation, firefly.

It's interesting to see the Sicilian authorities are taking it seriously, and to find out it continued to happen after the town had been disconnected from the electrical grid. Just makes me curious to know exactly what "electrotechnical" phenomenon they are ascribing it to.

-Zooby

firefly

Feb17-04, 11:34 AM

from article in ADNKRONOS (Italian paper) http://www.adnkronos.com/RegioniAdn/Sicilia/2004/Settimana08da16-02a22-02/02incendi_canneto_170204.php. Giuseppe Maschio, a member of the Protezione Civile involved in the technical measurements, states
(translation)

"the phenomenon appears related to geochemical emissions, probably because the area is geographically close to the Eolie islands, a vulcanically active area. [...] In effect, there would be a continuous flow of negatively charged particles, which collects and condenses in electrically charged areas, such as the main switches. The excessive heating of this equipment could be the cause of the fires."so it seems like so far it's a working hypothesis... guess those demon lovers are probably still hanging garlic about the place... heh heh. Anyway, Maschio basically continues to say(sorry if i don't go on translating but...) that they will continue taking measurements, and that it would be a very rare occurrence and one scarcely studied.

firefly

Feb17-04, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Well, I prefer to speculate along the lines of some exceptionally peculiar, but natural phenomena. That part of the world is quite volcanic. looks like you were on the right track... perhaps one step ahead of the Italian Protezione Civile! ;-)

zoobyshoe

Feb17-04, 11:57 AM

Thanks for digging that more detailed one up, firefly, and for the translation work.

I don't find that Maschio's explanation makes any particular sense, at least not the way he put it, but perhaps someone with some real physics knowledge will get interested, go there, and figure it out. I still suspect the local vulcanism to be the cause somehow.

-Zooby

Ivan Seeking

Feb17-04, 05:04 PM

I am very interested in the explanations suggested but this one does appear to have big problems. The accumulation of charge is a function of geometry and the EMF driving the charges. For example, a switch has a limited capacitance that is not going to change just because more free charge is available. Also, I don't see how enough current could flow to create any significant heat. I will read and say more when I have more time; maybe later tonight.

mouseonmoon

Feb17-04, 05:09 PM

seriously-after the power was cut off to the entire town...

quote:
====
In effect, there would be a continuous flow of negatively charged particles, which collects and condenses in electrically charged areas, such as the main switches. The excessive heating of this equipment could be the cause of the fires."

.... and that it would be a very rare occurrence and one scarcely studied.
====

indeed!....i think i'd be headin to the store to get garlic right about now myself!

Good call Zooby!
I definetly need some 'grounding' on this one [o)]

firefly

Feb17-04, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by mouseonmoon
i think i'd be headin to the store to get garlic right about now myself!well, this would found in bountiful and regular supply in any Sicilian household, indeed more reliably so than power, even during the best of times.I definetly need some 'grounding' on this one [o)] LOL. but seriously, so might some of the homes in that area. Sicily, and the south in general, are much less developed areas of Italy. I would not place any bets on the quality of the buildings, wiring, or the authenticity of "inspections." Even my parents' condo outside Milan, the industrial capital, has NO grounding.

I'm afraid that interview was the best i could find at the time, with the time I had. Maschio's statement clearly targets an Italian non-technical audience, which I realize you are not. But basically, the exorcists here are now looking elsewhere for employment.

I since saw another article which would take me a bit more effort. When I can I'll translate this or perhaps a more updated one as more precise info comes available. It does seem a bit silly for me to translate more partial detail at this point. Perhaps soon there will be something in international news too.

In any event, I leave the physics critique to others. [:)]

regards,

firefly

zoobyshoe

Feb18-04, 05:25 PM

Here's a more fleshed out telling of the original story from England's Daily Mirror Feb 11, 2004:

It was just little things at first... a TV would smoulder, a mobile phone would catch fire.
But then it got worse - a whole lot worse.
Over three weeks fridges, washing machines, cookers, and furniture all began bursting into flames for no reason. Twelve houses were badly damaged by blazes in the quiet village.
Now, with panic stricken locals blaming evil spirits and calling for an exorcism, the mayor has ordered a full scale evacuation.
Last night Italian TV showed people fleeing in tears while firemen rushed to fight yet another spontaneous blaze.
Engineers called to Canneto di Caronia, near Messina, Sicily, were baffled because the fires continued even when the power was cut off.
Mayor Pedro Spinnato said 'This all began three weeks ago and we can discover no explanation. We cannot risk a tragedy through these fires so I have no other option than to evacuate.'
'We have had engineers in to examine cables and wires but they can find nothing wrong. Twelve houses have been severely damaged after various domestic appliances burst into flames.
'But it is not just electrical items. Furniture is also catching fire for no reason.
'For the time being we have asked families to leave and stay with friends and relatives so a thorough examination can take place.
'People are blaming evil spirits and I am being asked to get the priest to perform an exorcism.
Civil protection chief Tullio Martella said: 'What is going on here is like a scene from some paranormal film
'The fires continued even when we cut the power to the village to see if that was a possible cause
'For the time being there is no scientific explanation and I have never heard of anything like this before.'
Last night more than 100 engineers were in the village and geologists were also due to carry out underground surveys.

zoobyshoe

Feb19-04, 07:51 AM

Last night I googled "standing waves" looking for acoustic phenomena when this extremely interesting paper came up:

The Physics of Resonance
Address:http://www.intuitor.com/resonance/standingEwaveDemo.html

It is a project you can build to demonstrate standing electrical waves. This was news to me. I didn't know there was such a thing.

It involves the use of a small radio transmitter. Basically a radio frequency is fed directly into the ends of two parallel thin copper tubes held in a mount. Since they are not grounded or connected to anything else the radio signal bounces off the free ends and doubles back on itself creating a standing electrical wave which can be seen by placing a fluorescent bulb between the copper tubes: areas of light and dark will appear corrresponding to the standing waves nodes and antinodes.

What caught my eye was the warning that appears if you go to the site and scroll down a bit:
__________________
Cautions
__________________
1. Radio frequency power can cause burns. It's best to limit radio transmitter output to no more than 5 watts and avoid holding fingers or other body parts between the transmission lines.

If you recall the very first post in this thread one of the witnesses claims to have seen an electrical power cord that wasn't even plugged into the wall burst into flames right in front of his eyes.

That seems absurd at first. But if a radio signal of the proper frequency in the radio range of sufficient wattage were to be transmitted to the electrical cord a standing electrical wave might be set up in the parallel insulated wires such that the insulation between them (plastic probably) would be heated to the point of combustion.

So, the question now becomes, could volcanic stress and heat down in the earth beneath the village actually generate an oscillating electric field, or EM field, that was in the range of radio frequency and of sufficient wattage to induce enough of a standing wave in a power cord to have this heating effect?

mouseonmoon

Feb19-04, 11:48 AM

WOW

Are Angels playing with their HAARPS?

No. 1 Forte mentions over and over again reports of
"light balls" seen around volcanoes, especially before they
blast off.....

No. 2 since then, the world has been 'hooked up' , and 'filled'
with 'radio' transmissions, micro -waves, etc.....

So, wild speculation......some 'natural' earth formation
just happens to become a 'receiver' of sorts.....what's the geology
of the area--caves lined with layers of copper deposits---i don't know-
suddenly becomes a 'cystal radio' zone.

i'm wondering if somehow there may be natural earth formations that may in effect become 'transmitters' or function as 'amplifiers' ....whatever
--that earth changes due to volcanic or earth-quake or even slight shifts may suddenly produce heat/electrical phenomena that ....
(links welcomed)

===

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/papad.html

Selections from interview with
Dr. Dennis Papadopoulos
Professor of Physics, University of Maryland
Senior Science Advisor, H.A.A.R.P
(High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program)

quote:
========
........
It's nothing more than a radio station, which sends power at 10 megahertz — television, for example PBS, is at 100 megahertz. HAARP sends power at between 3 and 10 megahertz, and sends it up in the ionosphere. What happens is it operates like a microwave oven. As soon as it finds ionized particles, charged particles which start existing at 70 kilometers, this electric field shakes them up and down. When they shake up and down they collide with a lot of neutral particles and it makes them hotter. So, the region where you are focusing your energy
becomes hotter than the rest of the region. That changes the property of the medium.....
======

This guy knows 'radio waves'---and Tesla ( in April this PBS special will be re-broadcast-the web-site PBS has is great! check it out--Colorado Springs experiment, all of it!--really cool
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/
it's not just about the ionosphere though,
we know HAARP is being used to search for 'caverns'.......

yep-add a little conspiracy to the mix--this is a great X-Files case!!

Zooby-couldn't find the article in the Daily Mirror
haven't been able to get anything but Italian news with google?

====
edit link

zoobyshoe

Feb19-04, 12:00 PM

I actually stole that article from a British paranormal sight where someone had posted it. I didn't take it directly from the Mirror myself. Unfortunately that person didn't post a link, just the text of the article. I couldn't find it searching, either. Here is a similar report from a Scots paper:
Scotsman.com News - International - Italian villagers call for exorcist to end 'demon' fires
Address:http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=165132004

It seems to me that natural cavities in the earth could act as resonators for radio waves, but I don't suspect that in this case because the phenomenon started so suddenly. Haarp has been operating for a long time now.

It could be, though, that the cavities were filled with water or mud that suddenly drained after a minor earthquake opened a blocked channel or something like that.

mouseonmoon

Feb19-04, 02:54 PM

quote:
===
It seems to me that natural cavities in the earth could act as resonators for radio waves, but I don't suspect that in this case because the phenomenon started so suddenly. Haarp has been operating for a long time now.
=====

couple thoughts--actually it's been 'on and off' --testing
(and I don't follow this too much-but the 'conspiracy' boys keep bringing it up, and recently had this brought up again from a friend - that goes into another NASA story......)

anyway, the whole shabang can be 'directed' to specific areas,
and why this 'cavern study' of the earth via HAARP?

The 'rumor mills' are working over-time with this 'project'--messing up whale migrations, power brown-outs,
weather control (addressed in my link above),searching the caves for Bin Laden !
blah, blah, blah

and btw--the Scotsman is one of my 'fav' papers--did a fine report on the 'India UFO'.....why can't something like this happen near me?

enjoy your comments/reports--keep up the good work!

Evo

Feb19-04, 11:42 PM

Zooby - great guess on the volcanic connection!

Firefly - thanks for the articles and translations!!

The area is very active, lots of earthquakes too. The area of the Aeoli Islands (which this part of Sicily is near) has a reputation for "fire & brimstone".

Zooby, one of my reasons for my being interested in infrasound is that my friend in Sicily can detect an earthquake minutes before the onset. He gets a very strong "weird" feeling a few minutes before an earthquake hits. Before the last earthquake, a few months ago, he was sound asleep and the "feeling" woke him up, he realized an earthquake was coming and he made it to the doorway of his mother's bedroom before the quake started. Scientists have recorded infrasound prior to an earthquake and he apparently is very sensitive to infrasound.

Ivan Seeking

Feb20-04, 12:46 AM

In an earthquake, the P-[pressure]waves precede S-waves [shear waves]. P-waves are longitudinal which means that they are sound waves by definition. We then feel the transverse motion of the S-wave passing as the quake. I was in two large quakes [~7.0] and a few lesser 5.5-6.0 events as well [having grown up in LA]. I almost always heard the quake before I felt it. Since the signal attenuation of waves increases with frequency, the longer the wave, the farther it travels.

Seismic waves which travel through the interior of the earth are called body waves. There are two types of body waves:
S-waves (also called secondary or shear waves).
The particles making up the medium through which the S-wave is traveling move perpendicular to the direction of propagation of the S-wave (transverse). The S-wave motion can be split into SH (horizontally polarized motion) and SV (vertically polarized motion). S-waves involve shearing and rotation of the material through which the wave passes but does not involve volume change.
P-waves (also called primary or pressure waves).
The particle motion of P-waves is longitudinal, that is, in the same direction in which the P-wave is traveling. The particles in the medium vibrate about an equilibrium position. The medium through which a P-wave travels experiences compression and rarefaction, but not rotation.

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~polet/body_waves.html

A couple of problems that I have with EMF induced activities as an explanation:

1). Events of that magnitude would be detected at great distances.
2). Events should be observed throughout the area and simultaneously; not sporadically with a cell phone here and a couch cushion there.

zoobyshoe

Feb20-04, 04:07 AM

Another early report. More detail about the specific area where it occurs:

Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Devil in the detail of Sicily's mysterious village fires
Address:http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1145394,00.html

zoobyshoe

Feb20-04, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
I almost always heard the quake before I felt it.
I've never heard one. The shaking of the building I was in was the only manifestation. I've never been closer to the epicenter than two hundred miles.
A couple of problems that I have with EMF induced activities as an explanation:

1). Events of that magnitude would be detected at great distances.
They probably were. Radios in a wide area probably experienced momentary static that was dismissed as due to conventional reasons.
2). Events should be observed throughout the area and simultaneously; not sporadically with a cell phone here and a couch cushion there. I don't suspect "seismic" phenomena, rather "volcanic" phenomena. As mouseonmoon suggested with his speculation about caves beneath this specific village, what is going on is obviously dependent on something unique to the local geography.

I suspect that fluctuations in pressure caused by a flow of hot magma close to the surface beneath the village is the prime generator of electrical or EM signals that are being processed by the specifics of the local geography, in a way you wouldn't be able to predict. I don't think there have been any actual quakes.

The last story I linked to said they were investigating local sources of man made radio signals as well (Or microwave?) so mouseonmoon may have a point about the village geography doing something unusual to man made signals, and that the vulcanism may be immaterial. His suggestion of subterranean copper deposits is not without merit: the island of Cyprus, also in the mediterranen, was the ancient center of copper mining.

Whatever is happening is clearly the result of some quite peculiar arrangement of things. Trying to explain it in terms of the normal effects that happen in normal configurations will only lead you to having to dismiss all possibilities.

The caution I found in that paper:

1.Radio frequency power can cause burns.

really struck me as fitting the "criminal profile" of the sort of culprit that could cause the fires reported, in so far as it can be invisibly transmitted to any conductor.

zoobyshoe

Feb20-04, 11:12 AM

Another report:

BBC NEWS | Europe | Sicilians fight 'Satanic' fires
Address:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3479203.stm

This one, I'm not so sure about. Daughter's wedding, exploding presents. Sounds more like a failed Mafia hit.

firefly

Feb20-04, 11:50 AM

Zoob! you are posting articles from the 11th!Originally posted by firefly: the exorcists here are now looking elsewhere for employment.All recent mentions of exorcists in the local press are loaded with sarcasm and only relate to their involvement PRIOR to the announcements indicated by the Protezione Civile, on the 17, which was when they started putting things together. The two articles I posted were in fact dated 17th, and however summary they may have been, and whether it makes sense to anyone here or not, I'm not seeing anything but jokes about exorcism locally.

As I've seen nothing more recent, I'm translating the more detailed article I mentioned before. They seem to have updated it with a diagram too. Fwiw, I'll post that soon. Then you guys can rip it to shreds and if so, we might just have to translate your posts and send a letter to the dern Protezione Civile. [;)]

firefly

Feb20-04, 12:07 PM

From an article on Panorama.It. 17-Feb-2004.
Mystery Unveiled Without Exorcism (http://www.panorama.it/italia/cronaca/articolo/ix1-A020001023119)

[translated excerpt, quoting Ing. Tullio Martella, general director of the civil protection agency. I bolded the words in quotation, as there was some paraphrasing in the article itself.]

"Based on a model supported by CNR* specialists, where the earth's core is defined as 'urchin-like', a large quantity of geothermal energy is able to move upwards towards the earth's surface via preferential pathways which culminate in points." It would thus be this energy which provokes a "rupture," explains Martella, "of the bonds which constitute the earth's substrata, with an increase in porosity and a consequent release of free electrons."

[skipped the article's intervening, redundant and slightly more screwy paraphrase of the following:]

According to the researchers, then, [i ASSUME this paragraph is still quoting Martella, it IS quoted, and no other names are given] "the generated electron clouds, having a very high mobility, rise to the surface creating high density charge distributions and with high energy content which, moving freely, in proximity of metallic materials create high-potential capacitors, and this phenomenon occurs primarily in the presence of electrical conductors."

"Between the insulators of these capacitors," concludes Martella, "a high enough potential difference is localized so as to generate an electric field which, overcoming the dielectric strength of the insulating material, perforates it, giving rise to the destructive discharges which cause the initial combustive activity detected. The phenomenon is known and is a basic electrotechnical concept."

to come... translations for the captions in the diag. (pant, gasp... ghhh. hope the UBB isn't all screwy)

firefly

firefly

Feb20-04, 12:10 PM

OOPPS... for above article...

* CNR = Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche - national agency dedicated to scientific research.

zoobyshoe

Feb20-04, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by firefly
Zoob! you are posting articles from the 11th!All recent mentions of exorcists in the local press are loaded with sarcasm and only relate to their involvement PRIOR to the announcements indicated by the Protezione Civile, on the 17, which was when they started putting things together. The two articles I posted were in fact dated 17th, and however summary they may have been, and whether it makes sense to anyone here or not, I'm not seeing anything but jokes about exorcism locally.
Believe me, I'm not posting them for the exorcist references. Stuff from the 11th is all that seems to be on the net in English. Each new story I posted had at least one further detail that might trigger someone to make some connection that could lead to figuring it out.
As I've seen nothing more recent, I'm translating the more detailed article I mentioned before. They seem to have updated it with a diagram too. Fwiw, I'll post that soon. Then you guys can rip it to shreds and if so, we might just have to translate your posts and send a letter to the dern Protezione Civile. [;)]
I've studied enough languages to know what a pain it is to sit and translate something, so I appreciate your trouble. Rest assured that any exception we take to that guy's explanation is all it is. We appreciate you giving us access to material that doesn't seem to exist in English on the net.

firefly

Feb20-04, 12:22 PM

Still in reference to article posted above, from Panorama.it, 17 feb. Mystery Unveiled Without Exorcism (http://www.panorama.it/italia/cronaca/articolo/ix1-A020001023119)
[another excerpt, translated]
Even though in this field, the experts explain, there is no absolute certainty...

Nothing certain, then, except for the mathematical certainty, that it could not consist of tricky and witty little devils, ghosts with a taste for pranks, strange unquiet presences.

Ivan Seeking

Feb20-04, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I've never heard one. The shaking of the building I was in was the only manifestation. I've never been closer to the epicenter than two hundred miles.

200 miles is pretty far. I was 60 miles from the 7.1 in 1970.
P-waves are what animals sense just before the quake hits.

They probably were. Radios in a wide area probably experienced momentary static that was dismissed as due to conventional reasons.

The ongoing events should have revealed some common observations by now...especially now that people are trying to figure this out.

I suspect that fluctuations in pressure caused by a flow of hot magma close to the surface beneath the village is the prime generator of electrical or EM signals that are being processed by the specifics of the local geography, in a way you wouldn't be able to predict.

Unpredictable, perhaps geologically, but geological events are large scale by nature. Also, the characteristics of radio waves are predictable. Maxwell described them completely in 1873.

The last story I linked to said they were investigating local sources of man made radio signals as well (Or microwave?) so mouseonmoon may have a point about the village geography doing something unusual to man made signals...

This sounds more plausible as an explanation for isolated local events. Still, starting fires is no easy trick. Perhaps simple arson plays a significant role here.

1.Radio frequency power can cause burns.

really struck me as fitting the "criminal profile" of the sort of culprit that could cause the fires reported, in so far as it can be invisibly transmitted to any conductor.

What bothers me is that this would be no easy trick. I'm not even sure if one could produce enough EM to start a couch on fire...in fact I really doubt it. Perhaps we find a lot of red herrings within this story. I would sure like to see some credible news video of something spontaneously bursting into flames.

firefly

Feb20-04, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by firefly
From an article on Panorama.It. 17-Feb-2004.Diagram Captions

http://www.panorama.it/panorama/statici/homegenerale/img/MNB_incendi170204.jpg

How the fires came about

How the civil protection agency explains the mysterious combustive phenomena at Caronia

1. The earth's core pushes outwards towards the surface, with spike-like: propagations.

2. In this manner, preferential pathways are formed which direct geothermic energy towards the surface.

3. The Canneto district of Caronia is located at the point of emergence of one of these "spikes"

4. In this area an electron cloud is freed into the atmosphere.

5. Where the electrons encounter conductors, such as metals, they charge them with energy.

6. In this manner, sparks are formed, like those which have started the mysterious fires of the past days.

zoobyshoe

Feb20-04, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
200 miles is pretty far. I was 60 miles from the 7.1 in 1970.
P-waves are what animals sense just before the quake hits.
The sound of earthquakes may, indeed, be proximity dependent, or it may depend of the medium through which it is propagating. I'm just saying you don't always hear them before they hit.

Who has proven that P-waves are what animals sense?
The ongoing events should have revealed some common observations by now...especially now that people are trying to figure this out.
Perhaps they have and no one has reported on it.
Unpredictable, perhaps geologically, but geological events are large scale by nature.
The large ones are, yes. The medium ones are medium-scaled, and the small ones are small-scaled.
Also, the characteristics of radio waves are predictable. Maxwell described them completely in 1873.
Yes. Good old Maxwell. What was it you think he said that rules radio waves out, here?
This sounds more plausible as an explanation for isolated local events. Still, starting fires is no easy trick.
How do you know? Done alot of experiments with starting fires via radio frequency standing waves you haven't been telling us about?
Perhaps simple arson plays a significant role here.
It actually could be arson, but I would hardly describe it as simple. You would have to be fairly clever and careful to rig up a time delay fire bomb in kitchen appliances and furniture in twelve different homes without being caught.
What bothers me is that this would be no easy trick. I'm not even sure if one could produce enough EM to start a couch on fire...in fact I really
doubt it.
My guess is that you missed the fact that it only takes a watt or less to burn yourself with the standing wave demonstration I linked to. The parallel conductors are about three inches apart in that set up. If we put them a quarter inch apart, which is what the parallel wired in a power cord are, the wattage requirement drops considerably.

In the case of furniture it is the metal, springs, nails, screws, brackets, that would have to be acting as the antennas recieving the radio signals and where the standing waves would be formed.

My guess is that different devices and appliances were affected at different times because the frequencies causing the problems are not uniform and regular. Parallel conductors of one length might be in the right orientation and of the right length to act as recieving antennas in the resonant frequency of the radio waves one day, and different ones would be correct on other days. In the meantime there could be many signals where nothing in particular fell into the right range and no spontaneous fires occured.

firefly

Feb20-04, 01:14 PM

Also reported on Panorama.it, 17 Feb, in a grey box at the bottom of the same page as the previous article (http://www.panorama.it/italia/cronaca/articolo/ix1-A020001023119).Civil Protection Agency prepares for the return of residents

[translated excerpt, skipping the bits about the residency restoration... can provide that on request, but I thought this end bit might be of interest:]

In the past few days, maintains the civil protection agency, no peculiar phenomena or incidents have occurred. "In the past few days," according to the civil protection agency, "there have been tests to measure geomagnetism, short- and longwave radio frequencies. Furthermore there was a low frequency (50 Hz) magnetic fieled check, and magnetic field measurements near the railway lines. After the restoration of the power supply, magnetic field measurements were also taken within homes with loads consisting of electric stoves and lamps." The initial results of the environmental analyses conducted by the ministry of telecommunications by Ingv [national institute of geophysics and vulcanology], Cesi[some sort of environmental agency], and Messina University did not encounter significant abnormalities in the parameters tested.

(ANSA)

Evo

Feb20-04, 09:19 PM

firefly, thanks for all of the translations!!!!

mouseonmoon

Feb20-04, 11:38 PM

from the Guardian:
----
The houses in which the fires have broken out are all in an area 350 metres (about 380 yards) by 70 metres between the shoreline and a railway.
----

This 'feels' important: limited area between salt water and I'll bet railway lines running parallel to shore--with 'spike' right in the middle.....

no reports of 'strange feelings'sensations .....'spooky' situation.

would like to know what the 'animals' were doing?

anyway, a matress catches on fire=guy drops cig/pipe ashes.....won't admit it of course......

but a waterpipe catches on fire?

FireFly---you sure you aren't 'at the scene' [;)]

zoobyshoe

Feb21-04, 12:24 AM

From an Australian version:

This may be the common phenomenon Ivan was looking for:

"Suspicion has fallen on the railway, which runs past the houses at the foot of a cliff.

"What we know is that the fires start just before a train is due to pass," Pezzino said.'"

This line specifically contradicts what the other reports said:

"Oddly, the fires stopped on Tuesday, once the experts arrived and cut the commune's electricity supply."

The Australian: Village evacuated after spontaneous fires [February 12, 2004]
Address:http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8659476%255E29677,00.html

Evo

Feb21-04, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
From an Australian version:

This may be the common phenomenon Ivan was looking for:

"Suspicion has fallen on the railway, which runs past the houses at the foot of a cliff.

"What we know is that the fires start just before a train is due to pass," Pezzino said.'" According to the article from the Guardian, they ruled out the railway. "At first suspicion centred on the railway line, but that has now been discounted."

zoobyshoe

Feb21-04, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Evo
According to the article from the Guardian, they ruled out the railway. "At first suspicion centred on the railway line, but that has now been discounted."
He says: "We know the fires start just before a train is due to pass."

So what I mean is that this connection people made between the fires and the impending passing of the train, fits the description of the commonality Ivan was proposing people would notice.

They seem to have tested the line for something and discounted it based on whatever it was they tested, but I don't know what that was.

The fires being coincident with the impending passing of a train implies a connection, but I can't come up with even one idea about what that might be. Possibly this was a rumor started by one or two people whose fires did start at this time, which turned out not to be true for the others, or something of that nature.

I'm finding that this analysis by sketchy newspaper report really sucks. There's no way to get to the bottom of questions like this that come up.

I don't find that explanation by the Protezione Civile to be anything but very confusing. It is frustrating not to be able to ask about certain points in more detail, since it doesn't make immediate sense to me.

Now, since the phenomenon has stopped, they've left the land of measurements and seem to be relegated to retroactive speculation.

Evo

Feb21-04, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
He says: "We know the fires start just before a train is due to pass."

So what I mean is that this connection people made between the fires and the impending passing of the train, fits the description of the commonality Ivan was proposing people would notice. Ah, I understand. I had read that the people were wanting financial compensation. It is very uncommon for people there to have insurance. So it makes sense that if they could pin it on the railroad, it would be someone they could go after. Except in Sicily, it would be in litigation so long, they would never live to see any money.

mouseonmoon

Feb21-04, 09:57 PM

quote: Zooby
===
I'm finding that this analysis by sketchy newspaper report really sucks. There's no way to get to the bottom of questions like this that come up.
=====
amen!
all i can do is SURMISE!
(what did the cat say/do?)

and here's another bit of info-'when the train comes in'

Is this the 'spark'?

EVO- a song for you, "just my im-mage-in-a-tion,
run-ing a-way with me".....[:)]
------
edit:clarify:"The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory." - Paul Fix
(don't 'fix' my imagination!- let it goooooo.......

zoobyshoe

Feb21-04, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by mouseonmoon and here's another bit of info-'when the train comes in' Is this the 'spark'?

An approaching train vibrates the tracks. It also sends sound through the tracks at the speed of sound in steel, whatever that is. The train itself makes sound that preceeds it as a rising pitch due to doppler.

All or part of these things would have to have combined with something else that happened three weeks before the evacuation when the fires started, if this notion that the fires start when a train is approaching has any validity.

zoobyshoe

Mar18-04, 05:36 AM

Bumping up due to recurrance.

firefly

Mar18-04, 09:17 AM

Hey there guys, well looks like they're barking up a slightly different tree now... here's an article from a national (state) news network (RAI). This time I found some ambiguities and terms which my limited physics knowledge really could not tackle - I have signaled my uncertainties with and i leave it to you to adjust these "grossly hopeful" translations [;)]. In general, if something sounds kinda SKWOOWY i may have SKWOOD it up so holler 'n I'll check it out! Sorry & thanks for your patience.

From RaiNet News, 18 March 2004 (http://www.rai.it/news/articolonews/0,9217,71310,00.html):[translated, with considerations above]

[b]Science remains speechless [...]

Il fenomeno degli incendi [...] Since the overheating cables are not connected to the electrical supply the only phenomenon which produces current for induction is the exposure to strong electromagnetic fields.

What is induction
[translation omitted (superfluous for you guys, no?)]

Geomagnetism
[ditto]

Magnetism and Volcanic Activity
The phenomenon at Caronia could thus be related to the presence of subterranean magmatic masses pushing outwards. The presence of molten [? molten / alloyed / fused ?] substances at high temperatures causes - a scientifically proven thing - magnetic field variations and an increase in charge density on metallic objects. These variations, while in the order of nanoTeslas, are detectable by modern magnetic sensors which are able to perform rapid measurements, both of field intensity and direction. Once factored out the external effects, anthropic as well as natural oscillations of the earth's magnetic field, a strong correlation has been shown between the "residual anomalies" and the proximity of eruptive crises on almost all monitored volcanos. Although the nature of the the mechanism which excites [? amplifies ?] the magnetic signal is still unclear, the phenomenologies currently invoked are: the demagnetization of parts of the volcanic structure, due to Curie's isothermal rise [? correct term ?]; the electrokinetic effect due to the rise of magmas, which would modify the paths of fluid circulation on the surface parts of the vulcano and the piezomagnetic effect due to the change in the stress field of parts of the volcanic structure [[i]uhhh, Zoob.... sure you don't wanna come to Italy and help these guys out? [;)]], caused by pressure variations which accompany the rise of magmas.

firefly

Mar18-04, 09:20 AM

ummmmm.... can "magma" be pluralized in English? "magmas" just sounds awfully awfully skwoowy to me... for starters.

firefly

Mar18-04, 09:34 AM

Oh btw, mouseonmoon -

i'm near Milan [t)] - comfortably North of the firey scenery. (whew! [o)])

zoobyshoe

Mar18-04, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by firefly
[B]Hey there guys, well looks like they're barking up a slightly different tree now... here's an article from a national (state) news network (RAI). This time I found some ambiguities and terms which my limited physics knowledge really could not tackle/B]
Thanks for digging this up so quickly and translating it, firefly. I didn't find it difficult to understand, and I thought that this time it made more sence than their previous explanation. I think it is better that they are saying they think it is related to the same thing that happens around volcanos ( a known and measured phenomenon) than to suggest their theory about the earth having points of greater charge, like the spines of an urchin, that turn things into capacitors, and all that.

Ivan Seeking

Mar18-04, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by firefly
These variations, while in the order of nanoTeslas, are detectable by modern magnetic sensors which are able to perform rapid measurements, both of field intensity and direction. Once factored out the external effects, anthropic as well as natural oscillations of the earth's magnetic field, a strong correlation has been shown between the "residual anomalies" and the proximity of eruptive crises on almost all monitored volcanos.

In other words, the effects are negligible.

firefly

Mar19-04, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
In other words, the effects are negligible. It also says, a bit further downAlthough the nature of the the mechanism which excites [? amplifies ?] the magnetic signal is still uncleari.e. they don't expect a signal that small to directly cause the problems but somehow to be amplified or in any event modified in some way, by as yet undetermined influences.

(i think amplified is probably a more accurate translation, But I myself do not know exciting a magnetic signal makes any sense in English physicsbabble... like could it mean changing it's frequency or something?)

If I am not making any more sense than the article, please tell me to shut up and i'll quietly go away....[:(]

firefly

Mar19-04, 08:04 AM

A friend of mine here who, incidentally, grew up in Sicily, rolled his eyes and chuckled sarcastically when i brought up these incidents. His idea is that the whole thing has been "blown out of proportion" by the citizens and the only true "magnetic" aspect here is money. He suggested that the residents and business owners would have nothing to lose, and everything to gain insofar as all this attention is bringing people and money to the area. When I suggested I thought it unseemly that a bunch of people would get together and "agree" to do something like this.... he seemed to think that didn't matter, that it could easily be an implicit thing, perhaps started by a hoaxer, who knows, but now being quietly "milked" by the town for economic gain.

The prior investigations mostly looked to theory; the tests performed by national agencies revealed nothing concrete.

I read in another article that the citizens "talk" of elevated magnetic fields according to their "privately hired" electricians. Interestingly, I've found no official reports of these results.

To me so much dishonesty is an ugly thought, and seems unlikely. But I live in better conditions, and in a different culture. I thought I'd toss it out, albeit only an opinion, since it came from someone who has experienced firsthand the culture, and the relative conditions.

zoobyshoe

Mar19-04, 08:39 AM

This is concievable. In a small town with a strong religious base, there is the "Salem" factor to consider.

Let's say there is actually only one mysterious fire to start with that someone ascribes to the devil. Other people may become unconsciously envious of the attention this brings them and start setting their own appliances on fire to get in on the attention. At least twelve of the towns residents are so inept at this they end up burning their own houses down. The more careful ones just wreck their cell phones and toasters. Anyway, soon the devil is running rampant and they "need" an excorcism.

The mayor figures it's plain electrical fires so he orders the electricity cut off, but they keep happening because it is hysterical mass arson. Time to evacuate and call in the Protezione Civile. These people investigate none of the actual appliances that have been incinerated, concentrating instead on power lines railroad tracks, and geomagnetic measurements. They find nothing.

The people come back and a new reason for more arson arises: to keep the interest of the tourists and gawkers who have come to town to check it out and who are buying their meals and lodging locally. Perhaps someone can be sued, as well.

I would buy mass hysteria over the notion of a single perpetrator, since this would require no special devices or ninja like stealth in sneaking into peoples houses.

firefly

Mar19-04, 10:15 AM

something like that, but...Originally posted by zoobyshoe In a small town with a strong religious base, there is the "Salem" factor to consider.

Let's say there is actually only one mysterious fire to start with that someone ascribes to the devil. I kinda doubt religion has much to do with it. Catholicism is a rather more of a backdrop. Kinda doubt too many people, small town or not, would ascribe it to the devil. At best a very elderly person might get the notion, whereupon I could see others jumping at the idea to call in exorcists and get some attention. Even if the italian public thought it ludicrous, it turns a fire into a unique mystery, and builds up a sense of importance. And it might bring a tourist or two... or more. This, after all, made world news. Think money.Other people may become unconsciously envious nahhhhh... it isn't a one guy against the next sorta thing.of the attention this brings them and start setting their own appliances on fire to get in on the attention. At least twelve of the towns residents are so inept at this they end up burning their own houses down. The more careful ones just wreck their cell phones and toastersNo way people would burn down a houses down through ineptness. But if the property is dilapidated enough to require maintenance beyond it's value, and they caught "whiff" the whole thing could balloon into a national emergency, they might well jump at the chance to get a free ride on state funds to be rehoused. Think money.

Also unlikely anyone would sue anybody here. If monies are exchanged it would be almost certainly under the table. No lawyers, notaries, or taxes. Think money. No God, No Science, Just Money.