Dowsing confirmed as "real" ?

[Ivan Seeking]

...In 1986, GTZ presented in its series of publications a special report number 183 on a project in the northern dry zone districts of Sri Lanka, where dowsing techniques have been implemented on a large scale for the identification of well sites [1]. The resulting success and the economic benefit turned out to be unexpectedly high, thus justifying this unconventional technique despite all initial doubts and reservations, put forward from various parties ...

The dowsing competence of an expert appointed by GTZ, Dipl.-Ing. Hans Schröter, was checked within a large scientific research program. A detailed final report of the investigation has been published [2]. It contains all practical procedures and results of the project, performed by a team of 14 scientists from 9 different institutions situated in and around Munich; the financing and control of the study was executed by the German Ministry for Research and Technology, along with another scientific group appointed by the Ministry. A series of rigorous tests showed that Schröter was, amongst some 50 tested persons, the most successful participant and his dowsing talent could be proven with a great statistical significance.

GTZ examined the speculation that the dowsing technique may also be of practical usefulness in other representative field programs, namely with respect to the increase of success rates. The results obtained up to now are contained in the following report: despite all possible objections, these results lead us to the conclusion that the said speculation is largely corroborated by the facts.

Within a framework of cooperation between GTZ and a project team from Munich who participated in the above mentioned dowsing investigation, it was agreed to adopt a more scientific approach with regard to relevant future GTZ projects. This includes a field test of particular measuring devices and detailed discussions amongst specialists in the field of earth sciences, regarding the dowsing technique and the corresponding results obtained from GTZ projects. Of course, it cannot be expected that an extremely complex and historically developed problem, such as dowsing in conjunction with its immediate environment, may be satisfactorily solved within a short time and rendered acceptable on a general basis. Nevertheless, it clearly appears that this technique has been gaining more importance for particular, well specified tasks [2]. Former experiences already showed that it could be gainfully and reproducibly implemented in the field of geohydrology, provided that some careful precautions and controls were considered [3]. [continued]

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/betz/1.html

[wolram]

dowsing has been used successfully for years,the only reason
it hasn't been accepted scientifically is no one knows how it
works. the British society of dowsers has been in existence
for 60 YRs or more, but like other things it never works when
tests are shown on tv.

[SanguineHorizon]

So far as those who actually participate in Dowsing can fathom, the best current theory seems to be the infamous 'Ley Lines' and such. Can anyone offer a scientific interperetation of these Ley Lines??

[quddusaliquddus]

Maybe they should compare the results with random points on the ground instead of the professional's techniques, the dowsers may not be good at it when compared to the usual methods - the usual guys might just be bad at it.

Wolram:
"dowsing has been used successfully for years,the only reason
it hasn't been accepted scientifically is no one knows how it
works. the British society of dowsers has been in existence
for 60 YRs or more, but like other things it never works when
tests are shown on tv."

The existence of a society dedicated to things doesn't make it more credible (unless if tis can be shown that they're good @ what they do). While doing Physics, my teacher gave a hand-out on the Flat Earth Society of Britain. I don't know how long they've been around (my guess is quiet a while!) - but they're still active if you can believe it.

[wolram]

http://www.occultopedia.com/l/ley_lines.htm
ley lines, a term first used by Watkins.
quddusaliquddus, many tests semi and scientific have been done
to prove disprove dowsing with various results, some people
seem to have a "knack", and do find find "targets", but who knows
how.

[arildno]

To all dowsers out there:
There's a MILLION U.S DOLLARS to be won; just prove the efficacy of dowsing to the James Randi Foundation!!!

[Overdose]

To all dowsers out there:
There's a MILLION U.S DOLLARS to be won; just prove the efficacy of dowsing to the James Randi Foundation!!!
:rolleyes: man if i hear that name one more time...any experiment which has
a million dollars at stake if it doesnt go the experimenter's way is always going to be biased and ultimately flawed.
And the way he always mentions it whenever he gets he's weird face on telly; as if its some kind of standing testiment to the illegitimate nature of pretty much anything that baffles his brain.

[zoobyshoe]

I have a little book called Lightning Bolt Generators which is about how to make various electrostatic generators. It has a list of things "that have a predisposition for taking on a negative or positive charge" in order of their tendency to do this. First on the positive side is air. Second is human hands.

It occured to me that this tendency of human hands to take on a positive charge might tie in to dowsing somehow. It doesn't seem to be a subtle thing. Hands are placed on the list as more positive than glass, human hair, wool, or silk.

I don't know how this would translate into dowsing, but it seemed signifigant.

[Artman]

I know mechanical contractors that use dowsing to locate terra cotta piping underground. It works. I don't know why or how, but it works.

[russ_watters]

A series of rigorous tests showed that Schröter was, amongst some 50 tested persons, the most successful participant and his dowsing talent could be proven with a great statistical significance.
Without the specifics of the test, its tough to interpret this, but just off the top of my head, it sounds like any other random probability. With a group of 50 people, random chance will give one the highest success rate. Did they take that guy and do a second set of tests just with him to see if the results are repeatable?

[Ivan Seeking]

Without the specifics of the test, its tough to interpret this, but just off the top of my head, it sounds like any other random probability. With a group of 50 people, random chance will give one the highest success rate. Did they take that guy and do a second set of tests just with him to see if the results are repeatable?

I don't know anything more that discussed in the link. I do want to follow up on all of this later though. Given my own belief in dowsing due to two family members who seemingly have this ability - my father and uncle - one of these days I want to learn all that we know about this claim/issue, so far. Ironically, since I accepted long ago that this "art" must be due to a perfectly natural ability I have never really learned much about it. My dad has used it so successfully that he never doubted that a known explanation must exist [he was a Chem E and is prone to very logical thinking]. He was quite surprised when I told him that science does not recognize this as a genuine, natural, human ability.

[quddusaliquddus]

Wow Ivan_Seeking! Ever tried it?

[mouseonmoon]

Artman
I know mechanical contractors that use dowsing to locate terra cotta piping underground. It works. I don't know why or how, but it works.

====
Anyone ever hear of "Spook Rods"?
They're used to find 'graves'.....
The City of Norfolk (Virginia) has a set at Magnolia Cemetery:
I 'tested' 'em out--friend worked there--he's now a Supervisor
This is an old cemetery and had number of unmarked graves-
Think they're copper rods bent so as to fit in 'handles' so they
can spin around--when you stand over a 'grave' (or water line)
the rods cross/come together---(worked for me!!!)--the 'effect'
is like a magnetic force......just 'standard operating procedure'!!

[zoobyshoe]

Anyone ever hear of "Spook Rods"?
They're used to find 'graves'.....
If such things actually work, I think it supports the theory I proposed in the other dowsing thread, that what the dowser is actually sensing is the disturbed magnetic field of the ferrites in the soil.

This could be tested by digging a trench, filling it back in, letting it grow over, and then letting as many reputable dowsers as you could get to participate to dowse the area without telling them they are dowsing for a trench with nothing in it.

If dowsing for pipes works by sensing the water or metal (in the case of steel pipes) you would expect there to be no "hits" whatever on the empty trench.

[Ivan Seeking]

Wow Ivan_Seeking! Ever tried it?

Funny enough, no...which is really silly given my interests. Given my renewed interest - due to our recent discussions here - I guess I really do have to try it. I will let you know how it goes.

[Ivan Seeking]

If such things actually work, I think it supports the theory I proposed in the other dowsing thread, that what the dowser is actually sensing is the disturbed magnetic field of the ferrites in the soil.

This could be tested by digging a trench, filling it back in, letting it grow over, and then letting as many reputable dowsers as you could get to participate to dowse the area without telling them they are dowsing for a trench with nothing in it.

If dowsing for pipes works by sensing the water or metal (in the case of steel pipes) you would expect there to be no "hits" whatever on the empty trench.

I have a creek, steel [mostly empty] pipes, PVC water pipes, and underground aquifers on my property. If I am able to do this with any success I will have a good range of things to try. Also, my dad is supposed to be here next month. Being over 70 I'm sure he hasn't done this in many years, but I will see if he is up for a demo.

[Arctic Fox]

I do it and am quite successful at it.

I worked at a water-well drilling company once. A few times the crew had to know where old existing water lines were before drilling - most times they resorted to hand digging 4 foot holes all over the area. I resorted to just dowsing for the lines and found them every time; when the rods crossed, I had one of the crew dig down and there was the line. I got a $2/hr raise when the boss found out about my 'abilities'.

I tried teaching another coworker how to do this, but all he could ever find was fat tree roots...

[zoobyshoe]

I have a creek, steel [mostly empty] pipes, PVC water pipes, and underground aquifers on my property. If I am able to do this with any success I will have a good range of things to try. Also, my dad is supposed to be here next month. Being over 70 I'm sure he hasn't done this in many years, but I will see if he is up for a demo.
I think the presence of aquifers will negate the whole thing. Where could you be expected to go wrong with aquifers? How, also, could you determine if a miss for pipes wasn't a hit for an aquifer without drilling a well?

I think my disturbed earth test would only be valid over a place known not to have aquifers. (The desert outside Las Vegas might be a good place to test both for disturbed earth and mouseonmoon's "spook rods" effect. Might find Jimmy Hoffa.)

[Arctic Fox]

Remember that dowsing can find just about anything - if you’re looking for waterlines, electrical conduit, jewelry, missing animals, stolen vehicles - it’s really just about putting the image in your mind, then finding it... it’s that simple (for me, anyway).

If you’re looking for an aquifer, it would be as easy as thinking about a large body of underground water, not just pipes/roots/streams. :)

[Ivan Seeking]

I think the presence of aquifers will negate the whole thing. Where could you be expected to go wrong with aquifers? How, also, could you determine if a miss for pipes wasn't a hit for an aquifer without drilling a well?

The good news is that I know where the water is located, the bad news is that I know where the water is located. This is obviously not a "good" test, but for my own interests it is really quite incredible that I have never tried. I guess I never wanted to be seen by the neighbors...after the exploding cow episode I have to watch my step. :redface:

I will keep alert for any hints of Hoffa.

[zoobyshoe]

Remember that dowsing can find just about anything - if you’re looking for waterlines, electrical conduit, jewelry, missing animals, stolen vehicles - it’s really just about putting the image in your mind, then finding it... it’s that simple (for me, anyway).
You're not dowsing. You're scrying.

[Ivan Seeking]

I do it and am quite successful at it.

If it could be arranged at some time in the future, might you be available for testing by a local university...maybe on a weekend?

[Arctic Fox]

If it could be arranged at some time in the future, might you be available for testing by a local university...maybe on a weekend?

LOL! Sure, depends on where this university is and if I can drive there and back in time for work (usually on-call 24/7).

[Ivan Seeking]

You're not dowsing. You're scrying.

Wow! I never heard that one. I checked and I'm coming up with a little different defintion.

Scrying is the occult practice of seeing the past, present, or future in a shining surface such as black glass, a crystal ball, or a bowl of water. Scrying constitutes a form of divination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying

[Ivan Seeking]

LOL! Sure, depends on where this university is and if I can drive there and back in time for work (usually on-call 24/7).


What would you estimate is the likelihood that you have an eye for the land and that you know about where to look? I don't mean to imply that you are lying or being insincere, rather that you might be picking up on subtle clues around you that prime you to react, even without your intension to do so.

[zoobyshoe]

Wow! I never heard that one. I checked and I'm coming up with a little different defintion.
I am the victim of television. On Charmed they frequently dangle a crystal on a string over a map and it comes to rest at the location of whatever or whoever they're trying to find. They call this "scrying". I shouldn't trust T.V.

[Ivan Seeking]

I shouldn't trust T.V.

Oh my gosh no. Trust only Art Bell. :rofl:

[mouseonmoon]

from Phactum, the newsletter of the Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking

Dowsing is as Easy as Pi
**-- by Tom Napier "...any computer-proficient skeptic could carry out a control experiment. (Hint, this would make a neat science fair project.) "

http://www.phact.org/dowsing.htm

ps enjoy the ad above!:Quality Dowsing Tools
Pendulums, divining rods, books dowsing tips, free updates, classes !!!

[Arctic Fox]

What would you estimate is the likelihood that you have an eye for the land and that you know about where to look? I don't mean to imply that you are lying or being insincere, rather that you might be picking up on subtle clues around you that prime you to react, even without your intension to do so.


That could be a possibility;

1) Finding my friend's stolen truck... I did know where the bad part of the town was and where it may already be, but my 'dowsing rods' pointed to the exact parking lot.

2) Missing animals... I would think they could be anywhere. I had lost one of my cats once in a forest. Was able to find his body a week later about 1km from where I last saw him.

3) Co-worker's jewelry... she had lost a gold bracelet somewhere on the property (I do know where she could/couldn’t have been). When I went dowsing for it (in the rain), the rods kept pointing to her truck. She insisted it wasn't in there, but I 'knew' it had to be - I never EVER doubt these feelings. After her looking in the truck, the rods kept pointing to the glovebox - she dug out all of the stuff from inside and actually found another gold bracelet she had lost several months earlier. Although I never was able to find the original, a gold bracelet IS what I was looking for and found. :)


My thinking on this, though, is that we all know where this stuff is, we just need a little help finding it. Be it a 'power', 'gift', or just constantly lucky, anyone can do it. It does take a little practice... ;)

[mouseonmoon]

Artic Fox
1) Finding my friend's stolen truck... I did know where the bad part of the town was and where it may already be, but my 'dowsing rods' pointed to the exact parking lot.
etc..

this is beyond 'dowsning' imo.....in my post about 'Spook rods' for example-these were 'updated' 'dowsing rods' (actually remember my granddad using a birch twig (?) not sure of the details-but a branch was 'split' and he held the split ends and would walk along the ground and the end would go down when he crossed an underground stream...this is 'wierd',cos i'm wondering now why he demonstrated this to me--and yeah, i remember the 'stick' being 'pulled down' when walking over the 'stream' (underground) like 'magic'....this was in North Carolina and more or less 'common knowledge'--folks would use this method to find places to dig a well.....he was an 'intelligent guy' and may have been 'conducting an experiment'....there was 'talk' about building a new house back in that area-and there was an 'artesian well'(just a place where the water came out of the ground and started a 'spring'....)

anyway, i've 'experienced' 'dowsing' for water with a 'stick' and the 'metal Spook rods'.....walked all over the cemetery and was 'amazed'....just like a child with the 'stick'....don't know what to make of it?-bizarre but 'something happens'!,,,,wierd!

Still, what you're doing (experiencing) goes 'way beyond' dowsing!!! imho!

[zoobyshoe]

I agree. I've never heard of dowsing for lost objects. It sounds like what you're doing is more on the lines of psychic phenomenon under the guise of dowsing.

[zoobyshoe]

I think if I had this ability...there is a place in Arkansas that is an ancient volcanic crater, and it is the only known diamond mine in the US. It is actually a National Park, and is open to the public for diamond digging. It costs something like $5 a day to dig to your heart's content. People frequently find very little diamonds and about two quite substantial ones are found a year: worth hundreds of thousands. You should check it out, Arctic Fox. If your abilities are as good as you claim you could retire for life after an afternoon's work.

[zoobyshoe]

Here it is:

Crater of Diamonds State Park: State Parks:*Arkansas State Parks
Address:http://www.arkansasstateparks.com/parks/park.asp?id=22

[Ivan Seeking]

I agree. I've never heard of dowsing for lost objects. It sounds like what you're doing is more on the lines of psychic phenomenon under the guise of dowsing.

One of the more impressive cases of divination that reportedly can be confirmed [I have never done so] is that [approximately] of two men and a small pickup truck that disappeared...in think in Michigan. When the police became frustrated, and I don't remember why or how...but a "psychic" was suggested and brought in to see if any clues would be revealed. This upper middle age gent held a small pendant and chain over a local map and began scanning the map with the pendant swinging - waiting for a rotation or something distinctive in the motion. According to the detective interviewed, the psychic landed the two missing men and the truck far out in Lake Michigan. He was thanked and sent home. Later, when a piece of clothing or a part of the truck floated onshore near the location indicated by the psychic, the police called him in again and set out by boat. Using the pendant and a map, the psychic directed the sheriff’s boat directly to the sunken truck and the two men. Apparently they had tried to cross the frozen lake in late winter and the ice gave way. Several law enforcement officials were interviewed and confirmed the story. AFAIK this is a true story; I saw the interviews.

This sounds similar to our Mr. Fox.

[Ivan Seeking]

Also, I have an alternative line of reasoning for this case; maybe worth considering.

Suppose the psychic was really a long time local who knew that people sometimes disappeared without a trace while trying to cross the lake. He also knows that only one or two places are likely to be crossed...due to motivation – e.g. easy access, where to go, and distance. Maybe this sort of thing happens every ten, or twenty years and the ole duffer knew this. From there he might simply follow the likely path and hope to spot the sunken truck. Maybe a little luck combined with a cheap con can make for an incredible story?

Anyway, no definite opinion either way on my part, but it struck me that this or some similar line of reasoning might make sense and still be consistent with the essential facts from the story.

[mouseonmoon]

Ivan

"downsing" and "divination".....isn't there a difference?

As a child i didn't know what was going on with the 'birch stick'- but 'felt it':
and with the "Spook Rods"-I was totally 'skeptical'....yet 'something happened', but it
could be 'related' to a 'natural event'-- don't 'understand it', but there could be 'physical/natural' 'reasons/explanations' for this--

whereas....'pendulums over a map' is something else!!

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan

"downsing" and "divination".....isn't there a difference?

As a child i didn't know what was going on with the 'birch stick'- but 'felt it':
and with the "Spook Rods"-I was totally 'skeptical'....yet 'something happened', but it
could be 'related' to a 'natural event'-- don't 'understand it', but there could be 'physical/natural' 'reasons/explanations' for this--

whereas....'pendulums over a map' is something else!!
I had the same question. The Wikipedia said that dowsing was a spinoff of a form of divination called rhabdomancy which means divination be means of rods. They don't have an actual entry for rhabdomancy but I think it may refer to the practice of throwing a bunch of small sticks into a special "circle" and divining the future from the pattern they form. I happened to read about this form of divination in National Geographic. It was still practised somewhere at the time. (1970s, I think, and somewhere in Africa).

So, technically, dowsing may be a subcategory of "divination by means of rods" but in actual practise, it seems to me to be a whole different phenomenon, with a different mechansm behind it. There is no interpretation of patterns, as with reading tea leaves. In dowsing, the rods move or they don't.

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, the defintions get a bit unclear. I tend to think that any forms of divination that might actually work must be part of common mechanism. For this reason I was using dowsing as an element of the entire set called divination...which I think is typical. However this might be completely inappropriate depending on what if anything actually works, and why.

btw, in Iran, when you finish a cup of Turkish style coffee, you can turn the cup upside down and a local reader will read your fortune from the coffee-sludge trails left in the cup.

[BoulderHead]

Here it is:

Crater of Diamonds State Park: State Parks:*Arkansas State Parks
Address:http://www.arkansasstateparks.com/parks/park.asp?id=22
Hey, I've been there!
(I unearthed diddly)

In dowsing, the rods move or they don't.
The rods moved for me and a couple of fellow experimenters. I can't explain it, but it happened and was most interesting. It is easy for anyone interested to make their own equipment and give it a try.

[zoobyshoe]

Hey, I've been there!
(I unearthed diddly)
I imagine the first three foot layer of the whole place has been pretty well picked over.

The rods moved for me and a couple of fellow experimenters. I can't explain it, but it happened and was most interesting. It is easy for anyone interested to make their own equipment and give it a try.
What were you dowsing for, and did you actually find any?

As far as trying this myself, I am hemmed in on all sides by alot of neighbors who already think I'm peculiar. I would have to think of some remote place to go.

[BoulderHead]

I imagine the first three foot layer of the whole place has been pretty well picked over.
Haha, that’s what killed me then.

What were you dowsing for, and did you actually find any?
At first only a length of string then later a coin. It was just an introductory test to see if I could do it and my interest was in watching for any peculiar movements of the rods, not in actually finding something hidden.

As far as trying this myself, I am hemmed in on all sides by alot of neighbors who already think I'm peculiar. I would have to think of some remote place to go.
You can do it indoors where nobody can watch. Here’s what I did; find a spare coat hanger and straighten it out (cutting off problem areas). Cut it into two equal lengths and bend each piece to form a handle (like the capital letter L). If it looks like the pieces will be too short try using two hangers instead of one. Now, what I did next was to cut two short pieces of ¼” copper tubing to insert the short ends of the rods into. This gives you something to hold on to while insuring the rods can swing freely. Next, lay a length of string across the floor a few feet in front of you. Hold you forearms parallel to the floor while the rods in your hands point straight forward (also parallel to the floor). Try your best to not move your wrists or arms in the least amount as you concentrate on the string in front of you. Walk slowly forward and visualize the rods moving inward and crossing each other at the point of crossing the string.

There, that’s it. It took me about a half-dozen attempts before meeting with success (less than 5-minutes). Three friends came over and laughed at my foolishness, haha, but they each agreed to try. One took several attempts and then rods moved together but not too convincingly. The second friend hit it on his second or third try and the movement was dramatic. He was clearly and profoundly amazed by what had just happened. He did it successfully several more times before the third individual had his turn. Unfortunately he met without success (so we all teased him about being a loser, haha). It’s funny that despite the success none of us bothered to pursue the matter beyond a few more days. I found that it took too much time to hunt for hidden coins in the yard and lost interest. Still, if anyone decides to invest an hour or so of spare time to try this little experiment and should meet with success then the next step is to have a friend hide the string under a rug, or close your eyes while it is laid across a spot on the floor. Have the friend tell you when to stop walking when the rods cross the string, then open your eyes. I can tell you that I opened my eyes to discover the rods had indeed crossed, and the person telling my when to stop was much impressed. Next take a slow step backwards and see for yourself if the rods uncross.

I tried my very best to allow no movement of my body that could force the rods to cross, and no movement could be detected in the arms/hands of my friends.

[Janitor]

Grandpa gave my sister an old Ouija board. When enough neighborhood kids had their hands on it, it moved.

[BoulderHead]

Haha, yes, I tried that too but someone was caught intentionally forcing a movement.

[Ivan Seeking]

But here is the kicker Boulderhead [gosh its great to have you back :smile: ] high speed video indicates that of those tested, the muscles in the dowser's arms react before the dowsing rod. This would seem to imply that the dowser is causing the action, but without meaning to do so. For this reason, and since I think it can be done, at least by some people, in some circumstances, I assume that they must be reacting through some unrecognized mechanism. I have suspected that this may be related to some primitive instinct for finding water...as a guess. Perhaps the rods only act as motion amplifiers for our subtle reactons?

[BoulderHead]

But here is the kicker Boulderhead
Always that kicker, hehe.
[gosh its great to have you back :smile: ]
Thanks, it’s feeling more normal all the time!
…high speed video indicates that of those tested, the muscles in the dowser's arms react before the dowsing rod. This would seem to imply that the dowser is causing the action, but without meaning to do so.
I has a suspicion and that’s why I would repeat to myself a little chant about “I will not move my arms, I will not move my hands..”. I can honestly say that I was not aware of any movement, nor could we as observers see any movement.
For this reason, and since I think it can be done, at least by some people, in some circumstances, I assume that they must be reacting through some unrecognized mechanism. I have suspected that this may be related to some primitive instinct for finding water...as a guess. Perhaps the rods only act as motion amplifiers for our subtle reactons?
I really don’t claim to understand it but know that even if it were a complete self-hoax it nevertheless will get your attention. We had about a 75% success rate within just minutes. Making the rods took longer than being able to see them in action. If it were good for nothing else it would still make for an interesting party game.

[edit]
I could write it all off as my subconscious tricking me to move the rods, especially since the string was in plain view to begin with. Later on when I felt comfortable that it was working it was, however not in plain view (my eyes closed) and yet the rods were crossed. Now, I could write this off as my causing the rods to cross when I was told to stop walking except the person telling me to stop was watching them cross while my eyes were still closed as the rods passed over the string. Go figure.

[zoobyshoe]

This reminds me.

Ivan, have you ever tried the "psychokinetic" thing where you make the little piece of paper spin on the point of a needle?

You stand a needle upright by sticking it into a blob of clay or something, then you cut a 1 inch or less square of paper and fold it twice at right angles so there is a kind of center pivot point. You balance the paper on the point of the needle by placing that center of the two folds (center of gravity) on the point of the needle. Then you hold one hand on either side of the setup, kind of cupping your palms around it, but not touching one hand to the other or to the set up. You can rest your hands on the table. Then you "will" the paper to turn in a specific direction.

I read about this in a book of "fun things to do" and was surprised to find it works. I suspect it works by eletrostatic or thermal differences between the two hands. The "kicker" is that you are able to control the direction of rotation.

I tried putting a jar over the setup and when I did it no longer worked.

[zoobyshoe]

You can do it indoors where nobody can watch.
Thanks for the info and the instructions. I think, however, I will not waste my time on string. I want to train my rods to have a taste for diamonds and gold. Don't have any laying around, just now, to practise on, though.

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm still dowsing for Jimmy Hoffa.

I will definitely try the paper trick. That is amazing! Are you sure about this....you're not pulling my leg are you? I see no way that we could control the direction.

[zoobyshoe]

I'm still dowsing for Jimmy Hoffa.
I'm sure there's a book deal in it if you find him.
I will definitely try the paper trick. That is amazing! Are you sure about this....you're not pulling my leg are you? I see no way that we could control the direction.
Not pulling your leg.

My guess is that a person can alter the relative temperature of their hands by concentrating more on one hand than the other, or, somewhat less explicably, control the relative charge. As I mentioned human hands are prone to be quite positively charged.

I was able to make it turn in the direction I wanted, to stop, and to change direction. I was alone at the time, however, with no witnesses. Hope I wasn't hallucinating.

[quddusaliquddus]

Maybe it was your breath that turned it ... a classic magic trick ... maybe?

[zoobyshoe]

Maybe it was your breath that turned it ... a classic magic trick ... maybe?
This is a good possibility since it didn't work at all when I put a jar over it. The person doing it may unconsciously adjust the direction of their exhalations to make it turn and to control the direction. I suppose the test would be to wear a shield over the face, or set up a pane of glass between the face and hands and see if it still works.

[leto]

I tried it because I didn't believe it. I held my breath, and while I was able to make it move for no apparent reason, I couldn't really control the direction of the movement. I don't doubt it would be possible with practice.

Edit: I seem to only be able to make it spin to the right or stop. It's always fun to think you know what is and isn't possible and be proven totally wrong. :smile: It makes the world more fun.

[zoobyshoe]

I tried it because I didn't believe it. I held my breath, and while I was able to make it move for no apparent reason, I couldn't really control the direction of the movement. I don't doubt it would be possible with practice.
I think it would be too hard to concentrate while holding your breath. Better to try a dust mask or piece of cloth around your mouth and nose to eliminate breathing directly on the thing.

I haven't tried it recently, but as I recall the way I got it to change direction was by concentrating on the other hand. It could be that it will turn in any direction it is started in due to whatever difference in temperature exists between the two hands, and that the impetus in one direction or the other is unconsciously given by subtly directing the breath.

What ever is moving it is a really tiny force, in any event, since there's very little friction in the "bearing". Whatever friction is present has to be mostly air friction.

[leto]

It will move for me using just one hand, and the shape of my hand seems to greatly effect it. Maybe it is my pulse? I dunno, I've noticed it also works better with my dominant hand.

[zoobyshoe]

It will move for me using just one hand, and the shape of my hand seems to greatly effect it. Maybe it is my pulse? I dunno, I've noticed it also works better with my dominant hand.
Good idea. I didn't even think to try just one hand. That points to it being a simple thermal effect, especially since the shape of your hand makes a difference; the way it guides the rising warm air, I'm thinking.

I wonder if anyone else has tried it?

[Gokul43201]

To all the diviners/dowsers (I'm not sure what the right terminology is) :

There's something called the Beale Treasure - a supposedly mammoth treasure hidden in Virginia. The names of owners, location and description of the treasure was written by this Beale guy in a secret cipher. The owner and description parts of the cipher have been cracked but not the location part of it. Expert crytanalysts have spent thousands of hours in vain. The rough location of the treasure is known though, an area of a few square miles, near a town called Bufords, I think.

Perhaps a diviner should walk about and give it a try.

Look up Beale treasure, Beale letters or Beale Cryptogram for more info.

[BoulderHead]

Kewl, I'll get my coat hangers out of the closet, and head on over. :biggrin:

Zooby,
I tried the needle and paper experiment. It was spinning around like a top (several complete revolutions) at first, but the more I worked with it the less success I had. I couldn't control direction, but I'll try it again later.

[zoobyshoe]

Kewl, I'll get my coat hangers out of the closet, and head on over. :biggrin:
I'm wondering if the rules contain any stipulations that the treasure must be found by solving the code, and if finding it by dowsing would disqualify a person?
Zooby,
I tried the needle and paper experiment. It was spinning around like a top (several complete revolutions) at first, but the more I worked with it the less success I had. I couldn't control direction, but I'll try it again later.
I think the same thing happened to me, where the effect was very strong at first and then got weaker the longer I tried it.

Anyway, I'm glad other people are able to do it. I guess I wasn't hallucinating.

[zoobyshoe]

Well, I just tried it again for the first time in 15 years and had the same results as everyone else. I can't make it change direction.

It seems to take some time to "warm up" as it were, and it didn't start rotating for a good half a minute. Once it got started I wasn't able to "will" it to stop as I remember having done before.

Then, after a few minutes of it, it seems to "wear out" and not want to work anymore.

This time it seemed like there was a chimney effect at work. It seems that your hands warm the air in between them which rises and the air coming in through the spaces between your hands to replace the rising air is what it turning the paper. I managed to do it with one hand, but it was necessary to curl the hand around it more closely to make it work, and it didn't work as well as with two hands.

I'm thinking the reason it stops working is that after you've held your hands like that for a few minutes they tense up and the circulation isn't as good: they don't heat the air as well.

[Gokul43201]

I'm wondering if the rules contain any stipulations that the treasure must be found by solving the code, and if finding it by dowsing would disqualify a person?


There are no rules. Finders keepers. Until the IRS comes knocking...

[(Q)]

Dowsing is no better than any game of chance. Anyone has just a good chance at finding water as Dowsers. Simply drill a hole anywhere that water is geologically possible, and you will find it. No divination necessary.

As an aside, when Randi tested the claims of dowsers, the dowsers all agreed upon the protocols of the test - all of them failed.

[Arctic Fox]

But I don't just look for water, although true, finding water is quite easy - just drill into the ground, eventuall you will find some no matter where you drill.

But, try finding burried electrical lines, pipes, gold, dead animals in the forest, old mining camps... try looking for something that could be just about anywhere - a dowser will find it first (if they're genuine).

As for the missing treasure, it's a catch22 - if the treasure isn't found, the dowser/psychic is labled a fraud. Remember that nearly all hidden treasures are based on stories and myths. I once spent 3 weeks in the deserts of Arizona looking for 3 bars of gold that someone swore was out there. Stupid old man - I didn't know it at the time, but his 'story' of the gold bars was a story told since the early 1800s - if it was ever true, someone already found them because it sure isn't out there anymore.

There is no other force acting on the dowsing rods other than he one using them. It's just an extention of an already possible ability - just requires concentration. If someone cannot thing clearly, or is 'scatter-brained' (as my friend calls it) then it won't work. If you're stressed, sick, et cetera, this applies also.


Ivan, did you get my PM?

[(Q)]

But, try finding burried electrical lines, pipes, gold, dead animals in the forest, old mining camps... try looking for something that could be just about anywhere - a dowser will find it first (if they're genuine).

But of course, a "genuine" dowser has never been found. And as I said above, any one has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."

There is no other force acting on the dowsing rods other than he one using them.

That being the force of their grip around a stick.

It's just an extention of an already possible ability - just requires concentration.

Actually, grasping a stick requires very little concentration or ability.

Get a grip.

[BoulderHead]

[i]But of course, a "genuine" dowser has never been found. And as I said above, any one has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."
Are you confident you could find that string I spoke about on the previous page?

[Arctic Fox]

(Q) just wants to fight.

[BoulderHead]

The reason I asked that question is because out of four individuals attempting to browse for the string, one quite apparently could not do it. That gives some reason to think that "...any one has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."" may not represent the truth.

[Arctic Fox]

And I completely agree.

My coworker just could not find underground water pipes... but ask him to locate a tree root and he'd get it every time! :D

[zoobyshoe]

I once spent 3 weeks in the deserts of Arizona looking for 3 bars of gold that someone swore was out there. Stupid old man - I didn't know it at the time, but his 'story' of the gold bars was a story told since the early 1800s - if it was ever true, someone already found them because it sure isn't out there anymore.
This wasn't "The Lost Dutchman's Mine" you were looking for, was it?

[(Q)]

Are you confident you could find that string I spoke about on the previous page?

It's not a matter of confidence, it's a matter of chance. That would be like asking if I was confident I'd roll double sixes with dice.

The reason I asked that question is because out of four individuals attempting to browse for the string, one quite apparently could not do it.

So, are you saying that individual did not have the capacity to hold a stick in his hand, wave it around in the air and pretend the stick was pointing at something?

(Q) just wants to fight.

Not really, I just wanted to point out that divination is a load of crap and that 'dowsers' have no more special abilities at finding things than anyone else.

[kcballer21]

Seems like (Q) is the victor in this debate. I'm still waiting for some legitimate peer reviewed scientific evidence to back the claims of 'dowsers', as far as I know James Randi is the only man willing to do what it takes to find the truth about such subjects. And as (Q) mentioned, all participants agree to the conditions of the million dollar test and still no one has won the money. I'm curious to know what some of you think about psychics that speak to the dead, and that is not a jab because some of you have offered some very interesting theories on possible scientific explanations for dowsing. I guess the bottom line is does it hold up against double-blind testing.

[(Q)]

In regards to the opening post made by Ivan and his claim,” Dowsing confirmed as real” certainly must be his personal opinion, as he seems to be convinced divination is real. But then, Ivan believes in lots of things.

First of all, Betz is a physicist, and his knowledge in hydrogeology is unknown. He thinks that there may be "subtle electromagnetic gradients" resulting from fissures and water flows that create changes in the electrical properties of rock and soil. Dowsers, he thinks, somehow sense these gradients in a hypersensitive state. His speculation is not based on any scientific data and he ignores the fact that geological instruments fail to detect these gradients. He also assumes that not only ‘chance’ would not produce better results but also claims scientific hydrogeological procedures would not produce better results than dowsers.

Most of Betz claims surround one particular individual in which the observations and conditions worked under are unknown.

[(Q)]

I guess the bottom line is does it hold up against double-blind testing.

Funny you should mention that – the Scheunen experiment conducted in Germany from 1987-1988 had over 500 self-proclaimed dowsers participate in more than 10,000 double-blind tests.

The results and conclusions from this experiment overwhelmingly supported ‘chance.’

[BoulderHead]

Are you confident you could find that string I spoke about on the previous page?

It's not a matter of confidence, it's a matter of chance. That would be like asking if I was confident I'd roll double sixes with dice.
Ok, after some rereading I acknowledge the meaning of your point was not something my question directly pertained to.

The reason I asked that question is because out of four individuals attempting to browse for the string, one quite apparently could not do it.

So, are you saying that individual did not have the capacity to hold a stick in his hand, wave it around in the air and pretend the stick was pointing at something?
In that same spirit I believe your question does not touch on my point either.


I have only acknowledged in my posts having been a participant to a curiosity. I have not attempted to claim the curiosity had any real merit (although I did say that if nothing else it would make for a good party trick). The only thing which I could not explain was my success at having the rods move inwards as they passed over the string while my eyes were closed.

[(Q)]

The only thing which I could not explain was my success at having the rods move inwards as they passed over the string while my eyes were closed.

Fair enough - but did it happen once or was the movement repeated each time you passed over the string? Did you pass over the string from different angles? Were there any other variables that may have caused you to inadvertenly move the rods yourself?

Your eyes were closed, right? Can anyone else somehow have moved the rods without you knowing?

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan, did you get my PM?

Yes I did Arctic Fox. thanks. Work is crazy right now but I will follow up ASAP.

It should be noted there that if I can arrange it, Arctic Fox has agreed to be tested by someone at a local university.

[(Q)]

It should be noted there that if I can arrange it, Arctic Fox has agreed to be tested by someone at a local university.

And I suppose that you and he will be posting the results? :rolleyes:

[Ivan Seeking]

In regards to the opening post made by Ivan and his claim,” Dowsing confirmed as real” certainly must be his personal opinion, as he seems to be convinced divination is real. But then, Ivan believes in lots of things..

The quote was "Dowsing confirmed as real?" Note the question mark. As a skeptic, one would think that you might at least try to give an accurate representation of the facts.

Keep in mind that you already have been warned twice. Some of your posts have been great however flame wars will not be allowed.

[(Q)]

The quote was "Dowsing confirmed as real?" Note the question mark. As a skeptic, one would think that you might at least try to give an accurate representation of the facts.

I did. Nowhere in the article does it make such a claim with or without a question mark therefore it is your personal opinion. Is that not a clear representation of the facts?

Keep in mind that you already have been warned twice.

I contacted Greg in regards to your warnings and he said you were equally at fault. Of course, if you are allowed to break the rules here without warning and can dole out warnings on a whim, what does that say about your ability to properly moderate this forum?

Some of your posts have been great however flame wars will not be allowed.

That is entirely incorrect and I take offence to the reference - ALL of my posts are great!

:biggrin:

[BoulderHead]

The only thing which I could not explain was my success at having the rods move inwards as they passed over the string while my eyes were closed.

Fair enough - but did it happen once or was the movement repeated each time you passed over the string? Did you pass over the string from different angles? Were there any other variables that may have caused you to inadvertenly move the rods yourself?

Your eyes were closed, right? Can anyone else somehow have moved the rods without you knowing?
My eyes were closed, the person telling me when to stop wouldn't/couldn't have moved the rods. I only walked at 90-degree angles to the string. As I now remember it, the experiment was done several times and at least once met with failure of the rods to move at all. I recall the rate of success being higher than the rate of failure and I’m fairly sure this isn’t a false memory (although like many, I have those types too). The only variables I can think of which may have altered the outcome was listening to the footsteps while the string was being placed (I found it hard to ignore, but tried not to listen). I found it difficult to refrain from guessing where the string might be located, even following holding my ears, and feared my subconscious might cause the rods to move in reaction to a hunch even though consciously I attempted to not force a movement of my arms or wrist. Because I felt I couldn’t rule such a thing out I reserved judgment. It did not appear to me that random chance would have caused the results but neither did I feel it possible to rule out subconscious ‘trickery’. I do not hold out my attempts as being scientific as it was purely for fun. I have never tried it again since that time and certainly do not claim to hold mastery. I admit the rods having moved at all was my greatest thrill because with eyes open or shut, seeing the string or not, I did nothing consciously to move my body. I concluded that dowsing would be at minimum fun for people to experiment with. I am unfamiliar with attempts to earn the ‘Randi million’, but from personal attempts at dowsing I found the experiment worth my investment of time.

[zoobyshoe]

Seems like (Q) is the victor in this debate. I'm still waiting for some legitimate peer reviewed scientific evidence to back the claims of 'dowsers', as far as I know James Randi is the only man willing to do what it takes to find the truth about such subjects. And as (Q) mentioned, all participants agree to the conditions of the million dollar test and still no one has won the money.
What maintains my interest in the possibility there is something to dowsing are all the reports that people keep using it with better than chance success. In the stories reported here alot of these people are just utility workers, not paranormal believers, who are taught the efficacy of dowsing as part of their occupation's lore. My thinking is that if there were nothing to it, it would end up actually working so rarely that the practise would be dropped and forgotten. The fact that these sorts of people, whose motivation is purely practical, are reported to still use it, is what makes me want to explore the possibility there is something to it.

Why everyone failed Randi's test is an excellent question. It is quite a damning circumstance, and since no one seemed to be able to pass the test you'd think that dowsing, really, should just about never work, and since it would just about never work, why would anyone practise it? I can't resolve this.
I'm curious to know what some of you think about psychics that speak to the dead, and that is not a jab because some of you have offered some very interesting theories on possible scientific explanations for dowsing. I guess the bottom line is does it hold up against double-blind testing.
Personally, I think all psychics who "speak to the dead" are bogus. Most are "mentalists" like James van Prague and the Crossing Over character (forget his name, just now). They fish for clues and give vague responses phrased such that they sound specific. Mostly they distract people with messages that the lost loved one forgives them and loves them, which is so much what most people want to hear they lose all objectivity about the vagueness of the actual details that come out.

[(Q)]

What maintains my interest in the possibility there is something to dowsing are all the reports that people keep using it with better than chance success.

One would think dowsers spend more time than others searching for water. Clearly, they must have gained some sort of experience and knowledge from their undertakings.

So, with that in mind, one would assume dowsers would never look for water at the top of a hill, for example, and instead might look for a gentle valley with a large potential drainage area behind it.

And with stick in hand, they would march on over to said valley and commence waving.

“Eureka! I found water!”

[zoobyshoe]

One would think dowsers spend more time than others searching for water. Clearly, they must have gained some sort of experience and knowledge from their undertakings.

So, with that in mind, one would assume dowsers would never look for water at the top of a hill, for example, and instead might look for a gentle valley with a large potential drainage area behind it.
The kind of dowsing that impressed me was when they find burried pipes when other means of locating them have failed (according to the stories).

In this situation, your mention of experience and knowledge still factors heavily in, except that the dowser would be using the trappings of dowsing rods to let go of preconceptions and let their unconscious tell them something they don't consciously want to suggest, because it would be counterintuitive. In other words, the dowser would be unconsciously weighing the situation and saying to himself "Since they didn't put it there (where they should have) or there, then they must have been going by such and such train of thinking and put it HERE! (rods cross!).

The dowser, himself, wouldn't be aware of following this train of logic. He would also, based on how experienced he was, always have a better than chance success rate, since he is actually working with the facts of what he can see in front of him, what he knows about where people decide to put pipes, and where the pipe wasn't.

[(Q)]

The dowser, himself, wouldn't be aware of following this train of logic.

So far we’re in somewhat agreement but I have a problem with that statement as it borders on divination. Most likely he knows well what he does with full on-board faculty.

He would also, based on how experienced he was, always have a better than chance success rate, since he is actually working with the facts of what he can see in front of him, what he knows about where people decide to put pipes, and where the pipe wasn't.

Precisely. And that is where we can discard the concept of divination as we unravel the mystic of the “dowser” by simply revealing its true nature - a “buried pipe expert.”

[zoobyshoe]

The dowser, himself, wouldn't be aware of following this train of logic.

So far we’re in somewhat agreement but I have a problem with that statement as it borders on divination.
Not at all. In this line of speculation there is no aquisition of information by extra-sensory means. There is no "divination". The unusual part is that the dowser puts what he knows together and comes up with the right answer without consciously deliberating about it.

Think of it this way: I am suggesting that he is tapping into the same prodigious ability that autistic math wizards use when they perform astonishing calculations in their head, and can't explain how they did it.

By resorting to the dowsing rods the utility worker would be letting go of the cumbersome process of consciously sorting out the mass of details he's noticed. He just lets his unconscious put it all together for him, and he is free to believe he just "sensed it with the rods", rather than have to engage in what might be a book-length examination of all the things he took into consideration if he had to do it consciously.

I think this is pretty common. If you take anyone who is good at anything, say basketball, there is always only a very limited range of things that the players are consciously deliberating about. The rest is quite automatic, and spontaneous: very fast judgements made for reasons they probably could not consciously explain with any accuracy.

Glen Gould said this about his piano playing: if you stop a centipede and ask it how it moves its 99th leg, it starts to think about that leg it and pretty soon it can't walk anymore. Likewise when he was playing, he couldn't think about how he was playing or more specifically, why he was humming along. All he could tell you is that if he didn't hum along, he couldn't play.
Most likely he knows well what he does with full on-board faculty.
Someone once explained the learning process to me like this: We all start out unconsciously imcompetent. We think, consciously, we are competent, but in fact we aren't

In the next stage we become consciously aware that we are incompetent.

In the third stage we start to acquire conscious competence. We begin to acquire expertize, and are consciously aware of it.

The fourth stage is unconscious competence. Because of all the practise and experience the person becomes able to do things skillfully without having to think about it.

By this logic, I think it is fair to claim that the experienced dowser/utility worker is not consciously aware of how he is finding pipes or whatever. He would just pick up the rods and "sense" the pipes.

Precisely. And that is where we can discard the concept of divination as we unravel the mystic of the “dowser” by simply revealing its true nature - a “buried pipe expert.”
Well, we can't discard anything since all I'm doing is speculating. This doesn't even constitute a theory: I haven't proposed any tests or predictions. Although what I suggest succeeds in explaining the alleged better-than-chance results, I'm not asserting I've indisputably hit the nail on the head. I'm just following a realistic train of logic to demonstrate that there are realistic trains of logic that could account for dowsing having a better-than-chance success rate. These are always to be preferred to explanations requiring the existence of unproven phenomena.

[Ivan Seeking]

I will open this thread again a little later

[Ivan Seeking]

I apologize for the interruption.

The thread is open again.

[Ivan Seeking]

It should be noted there that if I can arrange it, Arctic Fox has agreed to be tested by someone at a local university.

And I suppose that you and he will be posting the results? :rolleyes:

Of course I would Q. That is really the whole point isn't it.

In the future, if you feel that I am acting dishonestly or unfairly please file a complaint with Greg or Chroot. You will refrain from using here a presumed lack of integrity as the explanation for anyone’s interest in fringe topics.

If you play nice we will not have a problem. :smile:

Edit: I also refer you to the PF guidelines:
Language Guidelines:
Any foul or hostile language used in Physics Forums will not be tolerated. This includes any derogatory statements and profanity. Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted. Insults and negative attitudes are not allowed. It is better to walk away from a possible confontation and come back with constructive arguments.

All members have the right to thier own ideas, beliefs and faiths . Members have the right to express these on physics forums with equal respect and consideration.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374

[(Q)]

Of course I would Q. That is really the whole point isn't it.

Yes, but the likeliness of biased results and lack of scientific method is very high all things considered.

In the future, if you feel that I am acting dishonestly or unfairly please file a complaint with Greg or Chroot. You will refrain from using here a presumed lack of integrity as the explanation for anyone’s interest in fringe topics.

What are you talking about? Please show me where I stated you were acting dishonestly or unfairly. And, please show where I stated as an explanation a lack of integrity to anyone.

If you play nice we will not have a problem.

Does that mean if I agree with everything you say, we won't have a problem?

Edit: I also refer you to the PF guidelines:

Yes, I've read the guidelines. And those guidelines you refer have nothing to do with me as I don't use derogatory statements or profanity, neither have I personally attacked anyone. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please show it to me.

[(Q)]

The unusual part is that the dowser puts what he knows together and comes up with the right answer without consciously deliberating about it. I am suggesting that he is tapping into the same prodigious ability that autistic math wizards use when they perform astonishing calculations in their head, and can't explain how they did it.

I seriously doubt that unless all dowsers are autistic. One simply can’t tap into a mental disorder.

He just lets his unconscious put it all together for him, and he is free to believe he just "sensed it with the rods", rather than have to engage in what might be a book-length examination of all the things he took into consideration if he had to do it consciously.

Again, this is merely chance that the dowser will find anything.

If you take anyone who is good at anything, say basketball, there is always only a very limited range of things that the players are consciously deliberating about. The rest is quite automatic, and spontaneous

Ok, not you’re comparing apples and oranges. The professional athlete hones his skills and techniques for many years in order to achieve a level of play in which their moves are almost instinctive. I’ve played team sports my entire life and although my abilities have increased year after year, I still have to concentrate very hard in order to make the play I want to make – the same goes for every athlete. The only difference is that they have practiced their techniques for so long, it makes it appear the move is effortless.

There is a clear difference between the way a professional athlete trains and a dowser. Athletes practice techniques that are finite and tangible and will produce a result each time. You can’t say that about dowsers because it’s not possible for a pipe to be buried in a standard location each and every time. How then does a dowser practice his skills? Quite simply, he cannot.

Glen Gould said this about his piano playing

Again, playing the piano and dowsing are clearly not in the same category. The keys to a piano are finite and tangible and will never change their positions on the keyboard. Can a pipe be buried in standard locations and never be changed from the norm? I would venture to say they do change for each and every case. Big difference.

Although what I suggest succeeds in explaining the alleged better-than-chance results

I don’t think so – a dowser cannot practice his skills in the same way another person practices their skills as its not logical to assume a pipe will be buried in the exact locations predetermined by practice so again it all comes down to chance.

[Arctic Fox]

Okay, (Q). So you don’t believe dowsing is a real... “thing”.
Fine. You’ve basically said the same statement over and over.
We get it. Shall we move on now?


I’ve a dash of Autism, being Asperger’s Disorder. Anyone think that may play a roll in the ability to dowse?

[zoobyshoe]

I seriously doubt that unless all dowsers are autistic. One simply can’t tap into a mental disorder.
I never said anyone could tap into a mental disorder. I said they could tap into an otherwise unused ability. The ability I was refering to is one that is obvious to see in the case of autistic-savants: unconscious but accurate assessments.
Again, this is merely chance that the dowser will find anything.
Earlier you agreed the dowsers better-than-chance success in finding pipes was due to him being a "burried pipe expert".
Now you are backpedaling and denying there is ever any better-than-chance success.
There is a clear difference between the way a professional athlete trains and a dowser. Athletes practice techniques that are finite and tangible and will produce a result each time. You can’t say that about dowsers because it’s not possible for a pipe to be buried in a standard location each and every time. How then does a dowser practice his skills? Quite simply, he cannot.
Both practise by trial and error. Both keep techniques that work and discard those that don't.
Again, playing the piano and dowsing are clearly not in the same category. The keys to a piano are finite and tangible and will never change their positions on the keyboard.
You completely missed my point about conscious deliberation. Your previous point was that the dowser must be fully conscious of what he was up to. The Glen Gould story was an example of someone who played less well in proportion to how consciously he was deliberating about it.
Can a pipe be buried in standard locations and never be changed from the norm? I would venture to say they do change for each and every case. Big difference.
There is no standard location for pipes in many situations. This is, apparently, why utility workers resort to dowsing.
I don’t think so – a dowser cannot practice his skills in the same way another person practices their skills as its not logical to assume a pipe will be buried in the exact locations predetermined by practice so again it all comes down to chance.
My understanding is that utility workers dig first where they expect the pipe logically to be. If it isn't there, or at a second test dig, then they "resort" to dowsing. Thus, through trial and error, they learn all kinds of things, conscious and unconscious, about where people make decisions to put pipes. Utility workers who replace or repair pipes do it everyday. They get plenty of practise.

[zoobyshoe]

I’ve a dash of Autism, being Asperger’s Disorder. Anyone think that may play a roll in the ability to dowse?
Seriously? Are you an "Aspie"?

If so, it begs the question, "Do Asperger's people make better dowsers?"

[Ivan Seeking]

The quote was "Dowsing confirmed as real?" Note the question mark. As a skeptic, one would think that you might at least try to give an accurate representation of the facts.

I did. Nowhere in the article does it make such a claim with or without a question mark therefore it is your personal opinion. Is that not a clear representation of the facts?

This is the authors responsibility. I posted this paper for your consideration. This does not imply that I consider this proof of anything. That's why we have discussions - to see if this is worth considering or not. Beat it up all that you want. That's why we have this forum

Keep in mind that you already have been warned twice.

I contacted Greg in regards to your warnings and he said you were equally at fault. Of course, if you are allowed to break the rules here without warning and can dole out warnings on a whim, what does that say about your ability to properly moderate this forum?

Okay. I contacted Greg and he confirms that you did contact him six months ago or so. He never mentioned it to me. I warned you when in two sentences you accused me of lying three times. I did no such thing. If you want to re-hash all of this then file a complaint or send me a PM. Otherwise I consider this a dead issue and I will delete any further references to this.

[Ivan Seeking]

Of course I would Q. That is really the whole point isn't it.

Yes, but the likeliness of biased results and lack of scientific method is very high all things considered.

What things considered. I have hardly said anything. Please tell us what about testing arctic fox, as discussed so far, constitutes bad science? Please be specific.

If you play nice we will not have a problem.

Does that mean if I agree with everything you say, we won't have a problem?

Is that not supposed to be an insult? No Q, we value differing opinions. Again, that is really the whole point of this forum.

[(Q)]

Shall we move on now?

Shall we move on to what?

Anyone think that may play a roll in the ability to dowse?

You would first have to establish that there are actual “abilities” to dowsing. And since none have been established and the fact that dowsing is pure chance, I would say no, Aspergers disorder will not play a roll.

[(Q)]

Earlier you agreed the dowsers better-than-chance success in finding pipes was due to him being a "burried pipe expert".
Now you are backpedaling and denying there is ever any better-than-chance success.

No, I agreed a buried pipe expert might have better than chance success, not a dowser. A buried pipe expert would use tangible methodical ways to find buried pipes. He would use his knowledge that pipes MUST be buried in certain places according to logic. If he looks and finds those pipes in those places and claims he found them dowsing, I suspect he would be lying.

Both practise by trial and error. Both keep techniques that work and discard those that don't.

Sorry, but I disagree and I suspect you don’t play sports. Techniques for practicing sports are tangible and have already been established – a player learns those techniques and does not discard them because those techniques work each and every time if done correctly. You can’t say the same thing about dowsing.

You completely missed my point about conscious deliberation.

No, I got your point and I followed it up with a statement about how Glen’s playing is linked to the fact that the keys never change position on the keyboard – that is the only reason why he is able to play without conscious deliberation. Are pipes buried in exact locations known to the dowser therefore he can simply walk up to that location and find the pipe? No, it is complete chance.

There is no standard location for pipes in many situations. This is, apparently, why utility workers resort to dowsing

Ok, so we need to go back and review which utility workers use dowsing to find pipes and see the results and compare them to other methods or determine if the results reveal chance.

My understanding is that utility workers dig first where they expect the pipe logically to be. If it isn't there, or at a second test dig, then they "resort" to dowsing.

So, they are forced to eventually resort to chance when logic fails. Of course, I would think those workers would be remiss not to use a metal detector before breaking ground.

Utility workers who replace or repair pipes do it everyday. They get plenty of practise.

Practice dowsing or practice the logic of pipe placement?

[(Q)]

Beat it up all that you want. That's why we have this forum

Gee thanks – that’s what I thought I was doing yet some here are taking it personally as if their whole life’s beliefs were hanging in the balance.

I contacted Greg and he confirms that you did contact him six months ago or so. He never mentioned it to me.

Of course, I always back up my statements with valid evidence. Perhaps he didn’t mention it to you because there was nothing to merit the warnings in the first place.

I warned you when in two sentences you accused me of lying three times. I did no such thing.

I see. Please show me in the Terms of Service where accusations of lying are prohibited.

If you want to re-hash all of this then file a complaint or send me a PM. Otherwise I consider this a dead issue and I will delete any further references to this.

Uh… I didn’t bring it up – YOU did. And I don’t go whining to moderators about anyone – I simply deal with them or ignore them.

Why delete the references, is there something you don’t want others to see?

[zoobyshoe]

Earlier you agreed the dowsers better-than-chance success in finding pipes was due to him being a "burried pipe expert".
Now you are backpedaling and denying there is ever any better-than-chance success.
No, I agreed a buried pipe expert might have better than chance success, not a dowser.
No you said "dowser":
Precisely. And that is where we can discard the concept of divination as we unravel the mystic of the "dowser" by simply revealing its true nature - a "buried pipe expert."
Here you have clearly said that the "dowser" was, in fact, a buried pipe expert.


Both practise by trial and error. Both keep techniques that work and discard those that don't.
Sorry, but I disagree and I suspect you don’t play sports. Techniques for practicing sports are tangible and have already been established – a player learns those techniques and does not discard them because those techniques work each and every time if done correctly. You can’t say the same thing about dowsing.
I see what you're saying here. The dowser doesn't spend time just practicing the way people practise for sports.
You completely missed my point about conscious deliberation.
No, I got your point and I followed it up with a statement about how Glen’s playing is linked to the fact that the keys never change position on the keyboard – that is the only reason why he is able to play without conscious deliberation. Are pipes buried in exact locations known to the dowser therefore he can simply walk up to that location and find the pipe? No, it is complete chance.
OK. I see what you're hung up on here.

There is no standard location for pipes in many situations. This is, apparently, why utility workers resort to dowsing

Ok, so we need to go back and review which utility workers use dowsing to find pipes and see the results and compare them to other methods or determine if the results reveal chance.
That would be fine by me.
My understanding is that utility workers dig first where they expect the pipe logically to be. If it isn't there, or at a second test dig, then they "resort" to dowsing.

So, they are forced to eventually resort to chance when logic fails. Of course, I would think those workers would be remiss not to use a metal detector before breaking ground.
According to the stories dowsers can find clay pipes. This is my whole reson for thinking there might be something to it: why go through the silly rigamarole of dowsing rods if they aren't getting better than chance results from them?
If they aren't getting better than chance results from them, they would be digging ALOT of fruitless holes. Personally, I wouldn't bother after the third empty hole found with dowsing rods. Better to make wild guesses and continuously fail than to continuously fail because of dowsing rods. I could see some crackpot willing to fail over and over, but not practical people on the time clock with a job to do.
Utility workers who replace or repair pipes do it everyday. They get plenty of practise.
Practice dowsing or practice the logic of pipe placement?
The logic of pipe placement, obviously, but not necessarily on a conscious level.

[(Q)]

Zobbyshoe

You must be beginning to concede the argument as you now turn your attention away to nitpicking mine.

If you insist that everything be spelled out for you then so be it.

No you said "dowser":

A dowser is a self-professed individual who claims to find things via divination.

Here you have clearly said that the "dowser" was, in fact, a buried pipe expert.

But I was following your line of logic, which stated that the ‘dowser’ was actually working with the facts of what he can see in front of him, what he knows about where people decide to put pipes, and where the pipe wasn't.

Clearly there is a big difference between a person using divination and one using facts of where pipes are buried. If this particular individual used the facts and then claimed to be a dowser, then he is a fraud and he is in fact a buried pipe expert, and I would call him such. But we are talking about self-proclaimed dowsers so my statement is correct.

The dowser doesn't spend time just practicing the way people practise for sports.

No, I am stating that there are no verifiable techniques that a dowser can use to practice whereas an athlete has verifiable techniques to practice. How does one practice something where the results are pure chance?

why go through the silly rigamarole of dowsing rods if they aren't getting better than chance results from them?

Because dowsers claim to have ‘special abilities’ and if we’ve learned anything about the human condition we know people like to get attention especially if they think they have abilities through divination. This entire forum is built partly on that concept.

I could see some crackpot willing to fail over and over, but not practical people on the time clock with a job to do.

Do you really think practical people would turn to dowsing?

And of course, crackpots fail over and over all the time yet refuse to understand or acknowledge it. This forum, along with many others is ripe with crackpots who have failed miserably, yet can’t see it for themselves.

The logic of pipe placement, obviously, but not necessarily on a conscious level.

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to bury pipes on anything but a conscious level – perhaps you can elaborate why such a thing would occur?

[zoobyshoe]

Zobbyshoe

You must be beginning to concede the argument as you now turn your attention away to nitpicking mine.
No, I have been nitpicking your argument from the start. The devil's in the nits, to paraphrase the famous saying.

No you said "dowser":
A dowser is a self-professed individual who claims to find things via divination.
Some are, I suppose. Others do it just because they were taught that it works with no explanation of the mechanism. Ivan's father, apparently, was quite surprised to hear that it wasn't supposed to be scientifically possible. He'd been doing it for years with the vague notion there was some kind of electromagnetic thing at work. Other utility workers are much the same, I suppose.
Here you have clearly said that the "dowser" was, in fact, a buried pipe expert.

But I was following your line of logic, which stated that the ‘dowser’ was actually working with the facts of what he can see in front of him, what he knows about where people decide to put pipes, and where the pipe wasn't.
In other words, you clearly said the dowser was a buried pipe expert.
Clearly there is a big difference between a person using divination and one using facts of where pipes are buried. If this particular individual used the facts and then claimed to be a dowser, then he is a fraud and he is in fact a buried pipe expert, and I would call him such. But we are talking about self-proclaimed dowsers so my statement is correct.
My speculation was that the person is not consciously aware of calculating with the unconscious store of information at his disposal. There's no question here of fraud. I believe that this is the real point of disagreement between us: you don't believe a person can slip into a state of mind like this at will. I believe they could, if they were taught that the divining rods work, and don't particularly care how they work.

No, I am stating that there are no verifiable techniques that a dowser can use to practice whereas an athlete has verifiable techniques to practice. How does one practice something where the results are pure chance?
Your quetion assumes the rsults are pure chance.



I could see some crackpot willing to fail over and over, but not practical people on the time clock with a job to do.

Do you really think practical people would turn to dowsing?
The reports are that they do.

The logic of pipe placement, obviously, but not necessarily on a conscious level.
I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to bury pipes on anything but a conscious level – perhaps you can elaborate why such a thing would occur?
As someone recently said to me, "if you want everything spelled out for you..." I did not say people learn to bury pipes unconsciously, I said they might unconsciously learn many things about how other people bury pipes.

[Ivan Seeking]

Beat it up all that you want. That's why we have this forum

Gee thanks – that’s what I thought I was doing yet some here are taking it personally as if their whole life’s beliefs were hanging in the balance.

Alright the heck with it. If you want to play more games I'll play along. I sure wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm hiding anything.

This last statement of yours is a hint at your technique. You ignore or misrepresent what came before.

I contacted Greg and he confirms that you did contact him six months ago or so. He never mentioned it to me.

Of course, I always back up my statements with valid evidence. Perhaps he didn’t mention it to you because there was nothing to merit the warnings in the first place.

Since I have learned to anticipate your misrepresentations of the facts, I assumed that this was just more misdirection.

I warned you when in two sentences you accused me of lying three times. I did no such thing.

I see. Please show me in the Terms of Service where accusations of lying are prohibited.

It is when the accusation is false. It was and you know it.

If you want to re-hash all of this then file a complaint or send me a PM. Otherwise I consider this a dead issue and I will delete any further references to this.

Uh… I didn’t bring it up – YOU did. And I don’t go whining to moderators about anyone – I simply deal with them or ignore them.

I reminded you that you had been warned twice. I did so since I want to be fair. I also had not been told about your pm to Greg by a reliable source yet.

Why delete the references, is there something you don’t want others to see?

No Q, you're right. We wouldn't want to give that appearance would we.

[(Q)]

No, I have been nitpicking your argument from the start.

Fine, whatever.

I suppose. Others do it just because they were taught that it works with no explanation of the mechanism

That would presume such a mechanism existed and whether or not it worked. So far, no such mechanism has been shown to exist.

He'd been doing it for years with the vague notion there was some kind of electromagnetic thing at work.

Or, he is under the delusion he’s been doing it for years.

Other utility workers are much the same, I suppose.

Or not.

In other words, you clearly said the dowser was a buried pipe expert

Oh I get it now – you’re trying to annoy me. Ha ha, good one.

you don't believe a person can slip into a state of mind like this at will. I believe they could, if they were taught that the divining rods work, and don't particularly care how they work.

No, I never said I don’t believe a person can slip into a state of mind. And of course, another assumption that divining rods actually work – they are just pieces of wood , you know.

Your quetion assumes the rsults are pure chance.

Every experiment ever conducted on dowsers revealed the same results. Doesn’t a theory have to be falsifiable and can be falsified with just one experiment?

I did not say people learn to bury pipes unconsciously, I said they might unconsciously learn many things about how other people bury pipes.

I’m not sure how that can take place. Would that require a self-professed dowser to spend time with buried pipe experts?

[Arctic Fox]

I am hereby officially submitting my resignation as an adult. I have decided to leave behind the complexities of the adult world and only accept the responsibilities of a young child.

I want to return to a time when life was simple. When all I knew was the alphabet, colors and numbers.

I want to go to a fast food place and think it is a Five Star Restaurant.

I want to play hide and seek and make mud pies with friends.

I want to think candy is better than money because you can eat it.

I want to live in a time where nothing can bother me because I don't know what the adults know and I don't care.

I want to think the world is peaceful and everyone is kind and honest.

I want to believe anything is possible.

I don't want my life to consist of more work than one person can handle, depressing news and how to survive more days in a month than there is money in the bank.

I want to believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the true meaning of Thanksgiving.

I want to believe in the power of love, friendship, and having snowball fights in the winter.

So, I am sending you my check book, my car keys, and my bills.

I am officially resigning as an adult.

If you want to discuss this further...

You will have to catch me first because...







TAG! You're IT!



Dowsing isn’t just looking for water or pipes. Try finding a stolen vehicle in a city of 1.2Million. Or a lost cat in a National Forest. Or a bracelet lost months earlier...

Can’t we all just... get along? :D

[zoobyshoe]

I suppose. Others do it just because they were taught that it works with no explanation of the mechanism
That would presume such a mechanism existed and whether or not it worked. So far, no such mechanism has been shown to exist.
Yes, it presumes such a mechanism exists. That was stated in my introduction to my line of speculation. I stipulated for myself the authenticity of dowsing, and speculated forth from that stipulation.

I am not trying to prove dowsing, I am assuming for the sake of argument there is something to it, and trying to speculate logically what the mechanism may be in realistic, non-magical terms. The stipulation can't be attacked, since its a stipulation. It's a stepping off point for a mental excercize.
In other words, you clearly said the dowser was a buried pipe expert

Oh I get it now – you’re trying to annoy me. Ha ha, good one.
No, it may annoy you to be quoted verbatim to have said something you later denied having said, but my primary intention wasn't to annoy you.
Your quetion assumes the rsults are pure chance.

Every experiment ever conducted on dowsers revealed the same results. Doesn’t a theory have to be falsifiable and can be falsified with just one experiment?
I haven't read anyone's Theory of Special Dowsing or the follow up Theory of General Dowsing. C'mon! Dowsing has never been presented on the level of a theory. It remains a claim.

As I said in my introduction to my speculation, the fact it has failed all these tests is pretty damning.

The fact is, according to stories that have been posted in threads about dowsing here, people using it for purely practical purposes, that is: to locate pipes and other buried utilities, claim that it works more often than not, and is reliable. That being the case, that they claim this, I am not prone to completely close my mind to it. And, stipulating they they aren't lying or deluded, I am trying to reason out a realistic explanation. Ya see? (I know there is one other thread about dowsing that has been contributed to in the past six months or so, and there may actually be two. These are where these stories are. I don't know if you've read them.)
I did not say people learn to bury pipes unconsciously, I said they might unconsciously learn many things about how other people bury pipes.

I’m not sure how that can take place.
Unconsciously, like I said.
Would that require a self-professed dowser to spend time with buried pipe experts?
No. It would just require that the person find alot of pipes. Whenever we do anything alot we pick up alot of things unconsciously about what we're doing. Consciously, too, of course, but the notion I'm playing around with here is that the divining rods act as a distraction for the person's conscious mind so that he can unconsciously put together the mass of facts at his disposal very quickly, and figure out where the pipe is, fully believing the rods sensed it.

[(Q)]

Yes, it presumes such a mechanism exists.

Kinda like presuming aliens are visiting Earth with UFO's?

No, it may annoy you to be quoted verbatim to have said something you later denied having said, but my primary intention wasn't to annoy you.

Then you either misunderstood or I failed miserably trying to explain it to you. That's even more annoying. ;)

Dowsing has never been presented on the level of a theory.

Actually, it has and those theories border on pseudoscience and protoscience.

Ya see?

Uh-huh.

Unconsciously, like I said.

No, you misunderstood - I meant how can it physically take place? Do dowsers follow around buried pipe experts, have meetings, that sort of thing?

the divining rods act as a distraction for the person's conscious mind

Ok, I see what you're getting at. But there are those who use "L" shaped brass rods due to the notion the rod is attune to the Earths magnetic fields. Do you think the dowser would therefore not involuntarily move the rods but instead the rods would move themselves due to the magnetic fields?

[zoobyshoe]

Yes, it presumes such a mechanism exists.

Kinda like presuming aliens are visiting Earth with UFO's?
It could be done with that subject just as well, yes. We could stipulate that they are visiting, and then try to think through realistic and logical trains of thought about how their ships operate. Personally, I have no interest in that particular excercise.

Dowsing has never been presented on the level of a theory.
Actually, it has and those theories border on pseudoscience and protoscience.
You are saying that someone has written up a formal paper that satisfies all the requirements of a theory and has tried to get it published in a peer reviewed journal? Or are you saying someone on the net has incorrectly referred to his ramblings about dowsing as a theory?
Unconsciously, like I said.

No, you misunderstood - I meant how can it physically take place? Do dowsers follow around buried pipe experts, have meetings, that sort of thing?
According to these accounts the utility workers are taught how to dowse by more senior and experienced guys. There is no separate dowsing expert involved. All the training is on the job, like in alot of fields. The trainee learns new things every day. Then the day comes where they can't find the pipe. The experienced guy reaches behind the seat of the truck and pulls out his two bent coat hangers. "OK. This is a job for the rods." The trainee says "Duh, huh?" The sup says, "Shut up and come with me. I show you how to work these puppies."
the divining rods act as a distraction for the person's conscious mind

Ok, I see what you're getting at. But there are those who use "L" shaped brass rods due to the notion the rod is attune to the Earths magnetic fields. Do you think the dowser would therefore not involuntarily move the rods but instead the rods would move themselves due to the magnetic fields?
In the particular line of speculation I am engaged in in this thread, the dowser would, himself, somehow be responsible for the movement of the rods, but he would not consciously instigate this movement, and would believe they had moved by themselves.

[selfAdjoint]

Zooby, I can relate to this line of investigation, but can you suggest or at least speculate on the mechanism? Sensitivity to variations in the ambient magnetic or electric field? Being able to hear faint sound of the water in the buried pipe?

It seems that you could do experiments with these "naive" subjects - put 'em in a farady cage for example.

[Ivan Seeking]

Considering the range of hidden objects that can allegedly be found, it strikes me that people must be sensing variations in the magnetic field around them.
I used to think that some primitive animal instinct to find water might be involved, but now, the only consistent explanation would seem to be magnetic field variations.

[Ivan Seeking]

How do wild animals such as wolves and deer know where to find water? Do they in fact have this ability beyond knowing the terrain? I have always thought...for some reason...that they can smell water. Can they? Can we?

Edit: smell is a bad choice of words. Maybe I mean to sense by olfaction generally. The word "smell" may not apply???

[Hurkyl]

Some animals can spot bodies of water based on the polarization of light.

Of course, it would require the water to be reflecting light...

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, I can relate to this line of investigation, but can you suggest or at least speculate on the mechanism?
Been doin' that this whole thread.

[Ivan Seeking]

I once spent a little time with the chief architect of the Biosphere.

:uhh: nuff said?

He once walked across Australia.

:uhh: need more?

Anyway, he learned to follow dingoes [wild dogs] to hidden water sources. They would know exactly where to dig. He almost died of thirst several times so this became a bit of an issue for him.

[einsteinian77]

what is dowsing?

[zoobyshoe]

what is dowsing?
Old folk method of locating underground water so you could have well water, instead of having to tke your bucket down to the stream all the time.

The original method was to take a willow branch and split it halfway up. Then you hold one half of the split part in each hand with the whole end pointing forward, away from you, and you start to walk around the landscape. Supposedly, when you come to a spot where there is underground water the end of the willow rod will pull down, as if by its own power, and point to the ground there. You mark the spot, and that's where you dig your well.

People still do this. Apparently they now use two metal wires instead of the willow rod. They walk around holding one rod in each hand, with the free ends of the rods pointing forward, and when they come to a spot where there is underground water, the wires will cross of their own accord. The wires are bent at a 90 degree angle, and the vertical section is held loosly in the hands while the horizontal section points forward, in the direction of walking. That's the story, anyway.

People here in this thread have been expanding on claims about what you can find by dowsing: not just water, but anything you want to find.

[(Q)]

try to think through realistic and logical trains of thought about how their ships operate.

This is where the UFO nutters lose it as they can never understand the physics behind their so-called “realistic and logical trains of thought” yet press on with their claims stating that aliens MUST be far more advanced than us, hence they’ve already broken the laws of physics.

Or are you saying someone on the net has incorrectly referred to his ramblings about dowsing as a theory?

There have been scientific experiments conducted, so I guess it does classify as a theory.

According to these accounts the utility workers are taught how to dowse by more senior and experienced guys. There is no separate dowsing expert involved.

Well, that may be true for some cases but perhaps not all.

A buried pipe expert, for example, might never get any press if all he does is find pipes based on the standard methodologies. However, if one wanted to make some headlines and perhaps claim a bit of notoriety, he could research where particular pipes are buried using standard methodologies and then commence to wave a stick around and claim he found the pipes by dowsing.

And then there is the problem with the more senior guys trying to explain the mechanisms of dowsing to the junior guys. If it doesn’t work, what are the senior guys to tell?

In the particular line of speculation I am engaged in this thread, the dowser would, himself, somehow be responsible for the movement of the rods, but he would not consciously instigate this movement, and would believe they had moved by themselves.

Hence, the myth of dowsing continues its propagation merely because one “believes” the rods moved themselves. It doesn’t occur to these people to take their reasoning one more step in understanding that inanimate objects don’t move by themselves without some external force acting upon them, especially when no such forces are ever detected.

Ivan speculates:

I used to think that some primitive animal instinct to find water might be involved, but now, the only consistent explanation would seem to be magnetic field variations.

Are you referring to the Earths magnetic field? How do magnetic field variations lead to water?

And as usual, you have jumped to a conclusion without thinking about any other possibilities.

[dowser501]

what is dowsing? I have been researching dowsing for 22 years (successfully)
I have ironed out 90% of the bugs and may be right on the last 10%.
I have always taken a scientific approach in my research and tried to avoid the supernatural side of mental dowsing. Actually I prefer to call Dowsing mental channeling or mental radar which it is. I feel I have simplified the workings of mental dowsing down to a few physical laws as to why, when and how mental dowsing works.
It has not been easy as very few articles out of the thousands I have read on the subject bear much credibility as to the actual operation of dowsing rods.
One point I wish to make is that mental dowsing is as real as any other of our senses, and is an incredible experience once you make the breakthrough.
I will answer any sensible queries on the subject. Regards Max

[(Q)]

I feel I have simplified the workings of mental dowsing down to a few physical laws as to why, when and how mental dowsing works.

Please explain - what physical laws exactly? How does mental dowsing work exactly?

One point I wish to make is that mental dowsing is as real as any other of our senses

Why then is not a sixth sense? Why has this 'sense' not been detected?

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan speculates:

I used to think that some primitive animal instinct to find water might be involved, but now, the only consistent explanation would seem to be magnetic field variations.

Are you referring to the Earths magnetic field? How do magnetic field variations lead to water?

And as usual, you have jumped to a conclusion without thinking about any other possibilities.

speculate
verb: talk over conjecturally, or review in an idle or casual way and with an element of doubt or without sufficient reason to reach a conclusion

http://www.onelook.com/?w=speculate&ls=a

Conclusion
noun: the act of making up your mind about something (Example: "He drew his conclusions quickly")

http://www.onelook.com/?w=conclusion&ls=a

Misrepresent
verb: represent falsely (Example: "This statement misrepresents my intentions")

http://www.onelook.com/?w=misrepresent&ls=a

[dowser501]

Please explain - what physical laws exactly? How does mental dowsing work exactly

Firstly it is a 6th sense. How does it work? There is too much involved to cover the whole area of mental dowsing in one go, however I feel on an intelligent forum such as this one you will ask the leading questions which will keep the debate going.

The physical laws involved are Geomatic Flux eminating via solar flares and UV rays which cancel them, plus the aid of lunar reflection to enhance dowsing ability.

In recent times scientists have been studying seriously the possible harmfull effects of the use of mobile phones of the area of the Cerebellum Cortex which they have discovered Co-ordinates muscles, learned skills and timing.

The Cerebellum Cortex sited just above each ear is the culprit if you are looking for
for the power transfer source of mental dowsing. This can be proved by attempting to mentally dowse with a powerfull magnet placed just above an ear and attempting to mentally activate a single dowsing rod clenched in the other hand on the other side of the body.

Indoors preferably, as this stage of learning to mentally dowse you will not realise that the Suns UV rays are cancelling out all dowsing activity.

You will definitely feel a pull on the dowsing rod and even a live mobile phone will give a gentle pull on the dowsing rod. A recent scientific article article from the states
claims to have discovered that mobile phones excite the Cerebellum Cortex.

How dowsing works? The solar supplied Geomagnetic rays must bathe the entire body to make the human body a sender and receiver, remembering to protect the head from uv rays by headwear that covers fully the ears and thus the Cerebullem Cortex which is your transmitter and receiver. The dowser channels out a mental query and basically simply receives a yes or a no in various intensities if the mental answer is yes, and a blank if the answer is no.

Fire away critics and sceptics, you have 20 years of intense study to catch up on in a few postings Regards Max

[(Q)]

There is too much involved to cover the whole area of mental dowsing in one go…

In other words, you have no clue?

The physical laws involved are Geomatic Flux eminating via solar flares and UV rays which cancel them, plus the aid of lunar reflection to enhance dowsing ability.

Are you making this up as you go along?

Geomatics is concerned with the measurement, representation, analysis, management, retrieval and display of spatial information describing both the Earth's physical features and the built environment. Geomatics includes disciplines such as:
Surveying, Geodesy, Remote Sensing & Photogrammetry, Cartography, Geographic Information Systems and Global Positioning Systems.

Lunar reflection is merely the light reflecting off the Sun. How is this different from any other reflected light? Why doesn’t direct sunlight have the same effect?

And its interesting that both lunar reflection and UV rays are both electromagentic radiation, yet one aids while the other cancels. Curious, however unlikely.

The Cerebellum Cortex sited just above each ear is the culprit if you are looking for
for the power transfer source of mental dowsing.

The Cerebellum is located in the back of the brain, not above each ear and is a feedback loop for muscle movement and has not been know to “transfer power.”

Indoors preferably, as this stage of learning to mentally dowse you will not realise that the Suns UV rays are cancelling out all dowsing activity.

Why is that – UV rays are merely another form of electromagnet radiation?

How dowsing works? The solar supplied Geomagnetic rays must bathe the entire body to make the human body a sender and receiver

So, the person is bathed in X-rays and magnetic fields? X-rays can do serious harm. Magnetic fields are simply nonionizing electromagnetic energy and have not been shown to have an effect on chemical bonds in the body.

remembering to protect the head from uv rays by headwear that covers fully the ears

A tinfoil hat, perhaps?

The dowser channels out a mental query and basically simply receives a yes or a no in various intensities if the mental answer is yes, and a blank if the answer is no

Where does the yes/no signal originate?

Fire away critics and sceptics, you have 20 years of intense study to catch up on in a few postings Regards

You have made a very feeble attempt at trying to baffle us with BS. A first year physics student could poke holes in that nonsense. Better luck next time.

[Ivan Seeking]

Firstly it is a 6th sense. How does it work? There is too much involved to cover the whole area of mental dowsing in one go, however I feel on an intelligent forum such as this one you will ask the leading questions which will keep the debate going.

Firstly, where do you get this information? Can you supply any links?


The physical laws involved are Geomatic Flux eminating via solar flares and UV rays which cancel them, plus the aid of lunar reflection to enhance dowsing ability.

In recent times scientists have been studying seriously the possible harmfull effects of the use of mobile phones of the area of the Cerebellum Cortex which they have discovered Co-ordinates muscles, learned skills and timing.

The Cerebellum Cortex sited just above each ear is the culprit if you are looking for
for the power transfer source of mental dowsing. This can be proved by attempting to mentally dowse with a powerfull magnet placed just above an ear and attempting to mentally activate a single dowsing rod clenched in the other hand on the other side of the body.

Indoors preferably, as this stage of learning to mentally dowse you will not realise that the Suns UV rays are cancelling out all dowsing activity.

You need to understand that to any scientist this sounds like nonsense. Can you supply any supporting information here? We are glad to consider your claims, but any theories and references must be supported with links, papers, data, or other evidence that can be tested and verified, otherwise, I would say that your theory has really big problems.

Note also that specific references to published information can only be taken seriously if the sources are cited or linked.

Can you dowse? Are you willing to be tested by a major university?

[dowser501]

Re your query as to whether I would be willing to tested by a recognized University, the answer is a resounding YES. However living in southern Australia I have never heard of any Para normal studies being done in the Universities here.
The only assistance I have ever obtained would hardly be a recognized authority on the subject of dowsing. He was an elderly Irishman whom although unable to dowse himself , knew the basics and showed me the first steps to dowsing.
That was 22 years ago. He dropped dead soon afterwards.
A first year student may be able to tear my theories to pieces, however they are not theories so where do we go from here? I will admit that as an inventor, I have managed to give myself an edge which means that I can dowse under conditions that are impossible for normal demonstrations, which also means I can avoid making a fool of myself.
Instead of knocking me, try and help me understand my ability to the stage where it can be described in black and white. You are the guys with the education, and I just make things happen. regards Max

[zoobyshoe]

What's the closest town or city to you, Dowser, and how did you hear about this thread?

[dowser501]

Zoobyshoe, I was browsing the internet and discovered this forum accidentally.
I rather like this forum, as you all can at least spell.
I live near Melboune in the state of Victoria Australia.

[zoobyshoe]

What sort of stuff do you invent, and are you able to make ends meet with that?

[dowser501]

Zooby I am a fashion dezigner aged 74 and have always been able to conoct anything I need to assist me with what I am doing. Age is immaterial in my case as I have even managed to invent within limits HEALTH. I am a 50% working dezigner, some of your kids or grand kids may be wearing my garments right now, and a 50% occupied treasure trove hunter and ardent Archeologist.
I am very comfortable financially and have spent the past few years learning to be a descriptive writer, describing my many adventures in a way that I am told by many should be published. What NOW ?

[zoobyshoe]

1.What's your opinion of Vegemite?

2.Ever seen a yowie?

[dowser501]

I used to think that some primitive animal instinct to find water might be involved, but now, the only consistent explanation would seem to be magnetic field variations.
__________________
The most uncanny and correct theory ( above) By Ivan is the closest explanation I could ever give after two decades of study of the subject of mental channeling known commonly as dowsing.

If I had ever finished schooling and was a professor giving exams on this subject Ivan would get full marks.

[dowser501]

Zooby, a zowie is as mythical as a zooby.
Vegemite was invented doing the great depression to add vitamins plus milk to malnourished school kids. I havn't eaten the stuff for maybe 60 years.
I feel I am losing my thread on this thread.

[(Q)]

A first year student may be able to tear my theories to pieces, however they are not theories so where do we go from here?

Nowhere, you’re story does not check out, its all nonsense.

I will admit that as an inventor, I have managed to give myself an edge which means that I can dowse under conditions that are impossible for normal demonstrations, which also means I can avoid making a fool of myself.

It’s fairly obvious you invented this ‘dowsing’ story so most likely your other stories are also manufactured.

Instead of knocking me, try and help me understand my ability to the stage where it can be described in black and white.

These forums are full of people with the ability to write fiction who try to pass it off as truth, but the reasons they do so are not clear and vary with each individual. Maybe, you’re just bored.

You are the guys with the education, and I just make things happen

Yes, but this is a science forum, not a place to practice writing fairy tales. It’s entertaining at first but quickly becomes rather futile.

I am very comfortable financially and have spent the past few years learning to be a descriptive writer, describing my many adventures in a way that I am told by many should be published. What NOW ?

You might want to consider doing a bit of background research in order to make your stories somewhat more plausible. It always helps when you use terms and descriptions that fit closely with the subject matter of the story rather than just making it up as you go along.

If I had ever finished schooling and was a professor giving exams on this subject Ivan would get full marks.

Birds of a feather…

[Ivan Seeking]

Birds of a feather…

I see that you are still with us O' feathered one. :biggrin:

[zoobyshoe]

I see that you are still with us O' feathered one. :biggrin:
(Q) is a delicate sealed vessel struggling to contain a mass of nutty notions, a pot waiting to crack. I think he secretly believes in the "wee folk".

[Ivan Seeking]

Now now, let's be nice. :smile:

[Tsu]

Nowhere, you’re story does not check out, its all nonsense.
So is your word usage and sentence structure.

[Arctic Fox]

You need to understand that to any scientist this sounds like nonsense. Can you supply any supporting information here? We are glad to consider your claims, but any theories and references must be supported with links, papers, data, or other evidence that can be tested and verified, otherwise, I would say that your theory has really big problems.


Well, hold on a minute. Maybe this is something we could test as well. Find a good dowser, tape a few magnets to his/her head, check the results.

I do have a feeling that the Earth’s magnetic field, as well as any stray fields, may have an impact on this one way or the other. I think I saw somewhere in here about someone getting headaches when around high voltage lines - I have this same problem. Could be a link somewhere... :)

Ivan: check your PM if it’s not too late.

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "I once spent 3 weeks in the deserts of Arizona looking for 3 bars of gold that someone swore was out there. Stupid old man."

I dunno about that. He had you looking for three weeks for gold that didn't even exist. :)

[(Q)]

I see that you are still with us O' feathered one

And I come back to find cheap shots have been taken against the humble Q. Lets look at them shall we?

Zooby sez:

(Q) is a delicate sealed vessel struggling to contain a mass of nutty notions, a pot waiting to crack. I think he secretly believes in the "wee folk".

*crack*

tsunami sez:

So is your word usage and sentence structure.

Now, here we have someone who must have stayed up half the night thinking up this lame remark. Of course, it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. It’s also extremely poor netiquette to complain about syntax, especially when the one complaining needs to learn a thing or two on the subject. It’s off topic and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. And it’s a flame.

All in all a post written in very poor taste indeed.

And the author is supposed to be a PF contributor – what a joke!

Hey tsunami, have you nothing to say? Could you possible see fit to squeeze a thought or two out of that gray matter you keep upstairs?

[(Q)]

I do have a feeling that the Earth’s magnetic field, as well as any stray fields, may have an impact on this one way or the other.

A ‘feeling?’ What about evidence, got any of that?

I think I saw somewhere in here about someone getting headaches when around high voltage lines - I have this same problem.

Why would anyone get headaches around high voltage lines? What is the connection?

[Arctic Fox]

Ivan, think someone should lock this topic and ban (q)?

This seems to be going off topic.

[(Q)]

Ivan, think someone should lock this topic and ban (q)?

Ban me? You want to ban me because I asked you a couple of questions?

Perhaps you have an anger management issue if something as simple as being asked a question leads you to hostility.

Why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

[Ivan Seeking]

tsunami sez:

So is your word usage and sentence structure.

Now, here we have someone who must have stayed up half the night thinking up this lame remark. Of course, it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. It’s also extremely poor netiquette to complain about syntax, especially when the one complaining needs to learn a thing or two on the subject. It’s off topic and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. And it’s a flame.

All in all a post written in very poor taste indeed.

And the author is supposed to be a PF contributor – what a joke!

Hey tsunami, have you nothing to say? Could you possible see fit to squeeze a thought or two out of that gray matter you keep upstairs?

Tsunami: 8 words
Q: 130+ something

Now, here we have someone who must have stayed up half the night

[(Q)]

Tsunami: 8 words
Q: 130+ something

It all makes sense now - pseudoscientists don't look for content when qualifying written matter - instead, they count the number of words.

[JohnDubYa]

During trial runs, have the researcher place the dowsing stick in a holder so that the dowser cannot manipulate it with his fingers.

[Arctic Fox]

JohnDubYa: That’s not going to work. There is no “magick” working on the dowsing rods themselves - it is the dowsers' fingers/hands moving the rods.


(q): what I feel? I don’t know you, but from your presented attitude on nearly every one of your posts makes me feel like stuffing your eyeball sockets with overcooked spaghetti. Like I’ve said before; you don’t believe in dowsing, that’s fine, we heard you already... can you please move on now?

[FZ+]

Control yourself, (Q). An inflexible attitude is unhelpful. Chances are, the various dowsers are no lying. But that does not mean it is true. We need repeatability, and we need to take all evidence into account. On the weight of evidence, no conclusion can yet be made. Singular stories mean nothing.

We do know that humans have a slight capacity for sensing magnetic fields, though. I remember some studies, some time ago. It's probably a remnant from animals which navigated by magnetism. But I doubt it is so sensitive.

The challenge to dowsers is to show falsifiability, reliability, and of course, to do the trials. Onus of proof is on the claimant.

[Ivan Seeking]

On the hunt for grave sites

CATLIN – Stan Pentecost doesn't believe in ghosts, or UFOs, because he's the kind of guy who needs to see something to believe it. So, when he read that dowsing – using two rods to find underground water – could also be used to locate graves as well as determine the size and gender of the deceased, he had to try it.

"I still can't explain it, but it works," said Pentecost, a member of the Illiana Genealogical and Historical Society, and resident expert on Vermilion County's 138 cemeteries. Dowsing is a centuries-old practice of using wooden sticks or metal rods to locate underground sources of water, metal and graves. More commonly used for and associated with locating water sources, also referred to as "water witching," members of the Illiana historical society decided to test the practice Sunday afternoon northeast of Catlin at Pate Cemetery, an old plot where the perimeters are uncertain and headstones have been destroyed or removed.

After a brief orientation on the technique for the 20 people – some skeptical, but all curious – who gathered at the cemetery, Pentecost demonstrated dowsing, and then passed out pairs of rods for everyone to try. To dowse, a person holds lightly, by the short ends, two L-shaped metal rods in front of them with arms at a 90-degree angle, elbows at the waist and forearms extended parallel to the ground. When crossing a grave, or water, the two rods will move from their parallel position to a crossed position, and back to parallel when moving away from the grave.

Pentecost's own words, "I can't explain it, but it works," were heard over and over again Sunday as people walked around the cemetery and watched the rods cross in front of their own eyes. [continued]

http://www.news-gazette.com/story.cfm?Number=16350

[zoobyshoe]

Trouble with that story is that, although the rods mysteriously crossed for anyone who tried "dowsing" there is no mention in the story of any of the sites having been actually dug up to see if any bodies were where the rods indicated. I hope they aren't just going to take it on faith without checking.

[JohnDubYa]

When the rods cross, do they find graves, or water, or minerals? Is there a setting, such as on a dial, that you use to zero in on a particular target?

[zoobyshoe]

Is there a setting, such as on a dial, that you use to zero in on a particular target?
John, I guess you didn't read the whole article Tt's somewhat worse than that: in this group of dowsers they can tell if the bodies are male or female. Read it. Check it out.

[Arctic Fox]

When the rods cross, do they find graves, or water, or minerals? Is there a setting, such as on a dial, that you use to zero in on a particular target?

I just depends on what it is you’re looking for. For me, I just try and get an image in my mind of what I’m wanting to find, and then go walking around (usually with eyes closed) until I find it.


I can't explain it, but it works.

That one line sums it up.

I think one could dowse for anything.

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "I think one could dowse for anything."

Dirt? If so, do the rods go completely wild?

[kcballer21]

"Pendulum dowsing: Shop and compare..."

I love the advertisements on the top of these specific forum pages. There is alot of money to be made over something that captures the imagination, even if it only exists in the imagination.

[Arctic Fox]

RE: "I think one could dowse for anything."

Dirt? If so, do the rods go completely wild?

They wouldn’t move.

Funny thing is, if you try to find something that’s everywhere or doesn’t exist, nothing happens. If you are trying to find a lost tool, and you're searching for it in your yard, but you left it at your son's house 3 states away... the rods usually won’t point to anywhere. If by some strange chance that they do, you’ll have a long walk to get your tool. :)

Seems like it also works on a system of logic; I found a stolen truck in a city of 800,000 people... but someone was driving me around the city. If I had been on foot (the truck being 11 miles away), the rods would never have moved. ie: It would be logical to say that I’m not going to walk 11 miles to find this truck.

If I try to find dirt or air... that would be illogical. :D

[poolwin2001]

If dowsing is real,Then we need not depend on the Arabs for Oil OR Invade Iraq.

[Arctic Fox]

That is correct.

I've never thought of dowsing for oil, but I don’t see why a Geophysicist trained to dowse, couldn’t have a better chance of finding successful reserves...

[Chronos]

Why geophysicists? Their scientific training would not make them good dowsers. They would waste too much time looking for promising geological formations.

[Arctic Fox]

I can dowse for water because I know what water does and its locations underground (3'-1200').

If I try to find oil, the problem is that I've no idea where it could be. In my mind, I might try to imagine finding oil at 4 miles deep... I have no idea if oil is down that far, or if it's closer to the surface. I may be searching all over the place until I actually find oil at 4 miles down.

If a geophysicists knows that oil only hides at .5 miles down, s/he would have a better chance at finding it - especially if there is absolutely no way oil could be down 4 miles. (I don't know this)


Another thought is that water is everywhere. I can find water with no problem. But what if the people digging the well don't want to go more than 400'? In my mind I think of looking for water with the idea that it has to be 400' or closer to the surface.

Or, if I'm looking for waterlines, I can try and find a pipe 15' down, but I know that's not going to happen. If I'm dowsing for a pipe 3-5' in the ground, I can make the search a lot easier - because I already know the pipe's approximate depth.

Does any of this make sense?

[Xybot]

...Until a proper double blind experiment has been performed and peer reviewed. That said my Grandfather was a very good dowser and from my own experience at finding groundwater I could almost gaurentee I'd hit water 3-4 metres down from any low spot on the land I own. Basically that was where the water table lay, I'm sure this doesn't necessarily hold true for all spots, but I think you'd be surprised at how much water there is under there.

Just as a side note I seem to recall that one of the worlds largest fresh water rivers runs below the Sahara desert, can anyone else confirm this?