Did Obama flip off Hillary?

[chemisttree]

Looks like it to me! This primary is the greatist thing that could happen to the Republican party. It might even get one elected.

The Angry, Bitter Scratch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhkq11UExcw)

He looks so presidential there, don't you think?

[LightbulbSun]

Looks like it to me! This primary is the greatist thing that could happen to the Republican party. It might even get one elected.

The Angry, Bitter Scratch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhkq11UExcw)

He looks so presidential there, don't you think?

If someone is going to vote McCain over this petty nonsense then that person is pretty stupid to begin with.

[_Mayday_]

Surely not!

[cristo]

If someone is going to vote McCain over this petty nonsense then that person is pretty stupid to begin with.

Erm... are you aware who got voted in at the last election?

[Moonbear]

If someone is going to vote McCain over this petty nonsense then that person is pretty stupid to begin with.

I don't know...do you want someone who is petty and childish leading the country? When the campaigns started, I thought we had some great choices between Hillary and Barack, but having watched them degrade into kindergarten level antics, I am seriously doubting either of them has the level of maturity I expect in a candidate. McCain is taking the high road. I watched an interview with him where the reporters were trying to practically back him into a corner to get him to say Obama was elitist after his "bitter" remarks, and after McCain tried to sidestep the question a few times, came right out and told them basically that he wasn't going to stoop to the level the media wanted and he was going to run a respectful campaign. Besides, they've been so busy bickering over petty nonsense that neither is telling us what they actually plan to do if elected.

[devil-fire]

is it newsworthy if someone gets flipped off in the usa?

[Poop-Loops]

I don't know...do you want someone who is petty and childish leading the country? When the campaigns started, I thought we had some great choices between Hillary and Barack, but having watched them degrade into kindergarten level antics, I am seriously doubting either of them has the level of maturity I expect in a candidate. McCain is taking the high road. I watched an interview with him where the reporters were trying to practically back him into a corner to get him to say Obama was elitist after his "bitter" remarks, and after McCain tried to sidestep the question a few times, came right out and told them basically that he wasn't going to stoop to the level the media wanted and he was going to run a respectful campaign. Besides, they've been so busy bickering over petty nonsense that neither is telling us what they actually plan to do if elected.

So Obama was being childish when exactly? When he said he wouldn't stoop to negative campaign tactics? When he didn't whine ever? When he didn't play the race card? Or what?

[Moonbear]

So Obama was being childish when exactly? When he said he wouldn't stoop to negative campaign tactics? When he didn't whine ever? When he didn't play the race card? Or what?

When he did all of those...stooped to negative campaign tactics, whined, and played the race card, plus flipping off his opponent. And, I have YET to hear from him what he actually plans to do as part of this "change" thing. He talks a big game, but I haven't seen any substance to back it up...no change there, just more of the same (worse, the few things I've heard him "promise" have been phrased in a way that have not promised anything...you could take it any way you wanted...clearly that's his strategy). At least I've heard some specifics from Hillary on what she plans to do and HOW she plans to do it. Still, they've all stooped to the same old dirty campaign tricks that I'm sick and tired of. Frankly, I'm disappointed in the whole bunch of them. I just wish we could get a decent candidate to step up to the plate for a change, but they all got washed out early because apparently the backstabbing and bickering pulls in the campaign dollars...this is a presidential campaign, not the Jerry Springer Show.

[chroot]

I'd run, but I have better things to do.

- Warren

[Moonbear]

I'd run, but I have better things to do.

- Warren

That probably sums it up...anyone who would actually run for the office probably doesn't belong in it. (Was it Woody Allen who said "I don't want to be in any club that would have me as a member"...or something like that?)

Our university president came to our little neuroscience retreat this week, and he commented on something similar, that the people who are doing the best research and most deserve the funding are the ones least likely to brag about it and thus don't get it. For all the negative press he's gotten, he was pretty good about those things, pretty much telling folks to let him know what we're doing because it's HIS job to brag about it.

But, that's one of the problems with people running for president...the smart, humble, honest person isn't the one who's going to run for an office like that, it's the one who can schmooze, and talk about themselves, and play the dirty politics games, and still can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning who are going to throw their hats in the ring.

[chroot]

IMO, the President of the United States has one of the worst jobs imaginable. There's no way you'd ever interest me in it.

- Warren

[Evo]

Looks like it to me! This primary is the greatist thing that could happen to the Republican party. It might even get one elected.

The Angry, Bitter Scratch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhkq11UExcw)

He looks so presidential there, don't you think?I have to say, that's so completly inappropriate, I just lost all respect for him. What a stupid thing to do.

[Poop-Loops]

I don't know, I say if he had the balls to just man up and flip someone off on TV, then he's got my vote. None of this "Well some people can't wake up and answer the call at 3am because they were never married to a President!" BS. Just say it.

[Evo]

I don't know, I say if he had the balls to just man up and flip someone off on TV, then he's got my vote. None of this "Well some people can't wake up and answer the call at 3am because they were never married to a President!" BS. Just say it.So, if he disagrees with the head of state of another country, he's just going to flip them off? Sorry, but that's not going to cut it. There is a lot of protocol and political maturity required of the Presidency, and he just blew it, big time. You can't give in to whims of this nature.

[Moonbear]

I don't know, I say if he had the balls to just man up and flip someone off on TV, then he's got my vote. None of this "Well some people can't wake up and answer the call at 3am because they were never married to a President!" BS. Just say it.

How is sneaking the bird with a wipe of the nose like a teenager hiding it from his parents "manning up"? Sorry, but it's horribly immature, not adult behavior at all. The position of president requires diplomacy not childish antics. The reaction of the audience and his own snickers right after doing it suggest to me that it really was intentional, and not just an innocent scratching of an itch caught on tape and spun (if there was no sound to go with it, I might have assumed differently, or at least remained neutral on my opinion).

The whole contest has turned into petty bickering.

[Poop-Loops]

The reaction of the audience and his own snickers right after doing it suggest to me that it really was intentional, and not just an innocent scratching of an itch caught on tape and spun

Then that settles it. He gets my vote!

[Werg22]

.

But, that's one of the problems with people running for president...the smart, humble, honest person isn't the one who's going to run for an office like that, it's the one who can schmooze, and talk about themselves, and play the dirty politics games, and still can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning who are going to throw their hats in the ring.

Well, yeah, just look at how you're reacting to this non-issue. You're making a big deal out of a tiny thing. That's the reason "smart, humble, honest" people don't run for president; American presidential candidates are scrutinized to the core and criticized under every aspect of their personality.

I don't see anything wrong with how Obama acted. He's a bit of a joker; nothing to get upset about. I prefer this to McCain's stiff and unflinching personality.

[Evo]

Well, yeah, just look at how you're reacting to this non-issue. You're making a big deal out of a tiny thing. That's the reason "smart, humble, honest" people don't run for president; American presidential candidates are scrutinized to the core and criticized under every aspect of their personality.

I don't see anything wrong with how Obama acted. He's a bit of a joker; nothing to get upset about. I prefer this to McCain's stiff and unflinching personality.It's not how you "personally" feel about it, it's how this behavior would be tolerated around the world. When I went to Thailand I was warned not to tap someone on the shoulder and while sitting to make sure that my feet weren't accidently pointed toward anyone. Major insults in their culture.

If he can't control himself in our own culture, he can not be allowed to assume something as politically sensitive as President. If you do not realize how important this trait is in a President, do you think you understand world politics enough to vote at this level?

[Gokul43201]

Looks like it to me! This primary is the greatist thing that could happen to the Republican party. It might even get one elected.

The Angry, Bitter Scratch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhkq11UExcw)

He looks so presidential there, don't you think?Flipped her???? Are you being serious?

[Werg22]

It's not how you "personally" feel about it, it's how this behavior would be tolerated around the world. When I went to Thailand I was warned not to tap someone on the shoulder and while sitting to make sure that my feet weren't accidently pointed toward anyone. Major insults in their culture.

If he can't control himself in our own culture, he can not be allowed to assume something as politically sensitive as President. If you do not realize how important this trait is in a President, do you think you understand world politics enough to vote at this level?

I don't think that's a reasonable argument. There's a difference of context between giving a speech to a small crowd in a town hall and dealing with international issues. I think all we're really seeing is Obama stepping up his aggressiveness a little, and that's necessary when the opponent doesn't back from cheap shots and flagrant lies if it means winning.

[Evo]

Flipped her???? Are you being serious?Did you watch the video? It was pretty bad. A mistake I am sure is going to hurt him. If he hadn't laughed after it, it wouldn't have been so bad. He would have had an out, but it is clear it was intentional and he was amused it was picked up. I was sure the title was exagerating, but yikes. Do you see that video differently?

[Evo]

I don't think that's a reasonable argument. There's a difference of context between giving a speech to a small crowd in a town hall and dealing with international issues. I think all we're really seeing is Obama stepping up his aggressiveness a little, and that's necessary when the opponent doesn't back from cheap shots and flagrant lies if it means winning.When you are running for President, there is no difference. *ALL* of your actions must be appropriate.

[Werg22]

Edit: I thought people here were referring to how he pretended to dirt off his shoulders. I didn't know you guys meant flip off in the true sense of the expression. :|

All this because he scratched his cheek with the wrong finger?

You gotta be kidding me.

[Moonbear]

I don't think that's a reasonable argument. There's a difference of context between giving a speech to a small crowd in a town hall and dealing with international issues. I think all we're really seeing is Obama stepping up his aggressiveness a little, and that's necessary when the opponent doesn't back from cheap shots and flagrant lies if it means winning.

Nothing today is given to a "small crowd" anymore. Everything is videotaped and televised. AND, he already knows this from being caught out on his other "bitter" comments, no matter how he tries to explain it after the fact. He was trying to play one audience against another, but seems to be forgetting everyone is watching. These are exactly the same sorts of flubs that people dismissed when Bush was running for office, and now we see how they were only the tip of the iceberg of what a bumbling fool he can be.

If he wants to joke around with his "in" crowd, fine, just don't expect anyone to think that makes us feel he's a good representative of the entire country.

I'm waiting to see what happens after the Democratic convention and there's finally a candidate chosen and their bickering isn't the highlight of the news. Right now, this is giving McCain a pretty big advantage...he can sit quietly out of the way and avoid scrutiny while watching Obama and Hillary have their cat fights. McCain comes out smelling like roses by comparison. I'm really curious to see what will happen when he no longer has that luxury and the attacks are turned his way...will he attack back or will he continue to take the higher ground he claims to take?

And, yes, this pettiness is an issue for me...I don't want a president that is petty and childish, I want one who is mature, diplomatic, and can stand above this pettiness rather than joining in.

[hypatia]

If I haden't done the exact same thing to someone a few weeks back..well yea, that itch with the middle finger IS flipping someone off. His whole attitude, along with his words, makes that very clear.

[Werg22]

If I haden't done the exact same thing to someone a few weeks back..well yea, that itch with the middle finger IS flipping someone off. His whole attitude, along with his words, makes that very clear.

Are you serious? Do you actually think someone who is running for president would risk his entire campaign by flipping his opponent off?

Not to be sexist, but there's a strange pattern in this thread.

[Poop-Loops]

It's not how you "personally" feel about it, it's how this behavior would be tolerated around the world. When I went to Thailand I was warned not to tap someone on the shoulder and while sitting to make sure that my feet weren't accidently pointed toward anyone. Major insults in their culture.

I think the major insult to their culture is assuming that they are so stupid that they won't notice you are a tourist or even a foreigner and just not give you any leeway about it.

When you see a foreigner, do you treat him or her by the same rules you would treat a native-born 'Mercan? No, you know they are probably not up-to-speed on our culture, so you tend to be helpful, right? If they do something stupid like try to kiss your friends that they just met, you'd tell them that it's not appropriate in our culture instead of going off on how mean he is, right?

Well guess what? Other people aren't that different. They can tell these things, too.

If he can't control himself in our own culture, he can not be allowed to assume something as politically sensitive as President. If you do not realize how important this trait is in a President, do you think you understand world politics enough to vote at this level?

You can't be serious. People make goofs from all countries towards all other countries. It's called being human. You will NEVER have a human as President who doesn't make a goof in public or doesn't

Moreover, like it's been pointed out, there's a difference between making a joke among your supporters against a rival who has been a lying jerk the whole time and flipping off a foreign diplomat who you desperately need to suck up to.

By the way, is laughing at this appropriate?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WLQGWpRVA7o

No, but I won't hold it against him because he's human. He shouldn't have done it, but it happens. I'm much more worried about him saying "ME DON'T KNOW ECONOMY!!! OH NOES!!!" than laughing at a profanity. Yeah, like you've never laughed at something like that before.

[Gokul43201]

Did you watch the video? It was pretty bad. A mistake I am sure is going to hurt him. If he hadn't laughed after it, it wouldn't have been so bad. He would have had an out, but it is clear it was intentional and he was amused it was picked up. I was sure the title was exagerating, but yikes. Do you see that video differently?I saw the video - he scratched his cheek. People started cheering when he said Clinton was in her element. Looked to me like that was the joke that he and everyone out there was laughing about - it's what I grinned at too, when I first watched the video of the speech. Besides, the cheering began even before he scratched his cheek.

[Evo]

I saw the video - he scratched his cheek. People started cheering when he said Clinton was in her element. Looked to me like that was the joke that he and everyone out there was laughing about - it's what I grinned at too, when I first watched the video of the speech. Besides, the cheering began even before he scratched his cheek.The hoots are right at 19 when he lifts his middle finger.

I am just so disappointed right now.

Is this going to be a choice of who's worse for the country or who will alienate the world more?

[Gokul43201]

The hoots begin about half a second before the finger appears. When I watched the speech - which was a lot longer than the 30 second clip linked here - I grinned at the remark too. And I didn't notice the finger. If you've watched Obama's speeches, you'll notice that he scratches his face quite a lot. In this same speech he scratched his face thrice with 3 different fingers in a span of 3 minutes. And he was laughing and having fun the whole time during the speech, not just after the middle finger scratch.

I hope you've watched more than just the clip linked in this thread.

[Evo]

The hoots begin about half a second before the finger appears. When I watched the speech - which was a lot longer than the 30 second clip linked here - I grinned at the remark too. And I didn't notice the finger. If you've watched Obama's speeches, you'll notice that he scratches his face quite a lot. In this same speech he scratched his face thrice with 3 different fingers in a span of 3 minutes. And he was laughing and having fun the whole time during the speech, not just after the middle finger scratch.

I hope you've watched more than just the clip linked in this thread.No, I haven't, so my bad if I missed something and this was taken out of context, thanks for bringing that up, I will have to look for the rest of the speech.

[phoenixy]

What the hell, who in the their right mind would actually believe this bull crap from the right wing media? No wonder the political mud swing never stop. It actually works, just look at the response to this thread.

If we really want to discuss profanity or inappropriate action from the candidates, why not start with something indisputable that actually happened? Such as:


... John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "sh*theads," "*ssholes" and in at least one case "a f*cking jerk." ...

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't see this as being anything but nonsense. He was scratching his cheek. Okay, from that angle it might have looked a bit like the bird, but his index finger was also extended. Now, this is a physics forum, so might assume that two fingers are approximately equal to one finger, but IMO we can't take this to be a 0th order problem.

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Actually it's strange you should mention that, as my lifetime ambition - well apart from visiting every country in the world - is to flip the bird to every leader in the world. Kind of an ultimate expression of contempt for world politics. Childish, but hell something to tell the grand kids. :biggrin::wink:

[_Mayday_]

I saw the video - he scratched his cheek. People started cheering when he said Clinton was in her element. Looked to me like that was the joke that he and everyone out there was laughing about - it's what I grinned at too, when I first watched the video of the speech. Besides, the cheering began even before he scratched his cheek.

Gokul, I have to say I agree. I don't think it was intentional, and I think it was just an inocent scratch!

[_Mayday_]

I haven't been following this very closely, but whenever I see it they're just taking cheap digs at eachother, wether this is due to the media hyping it up I do not know.

[TVP45]

Let's see. Last week oil went to $116.00. Copper passed $4.00. Several airplanes announced they were bankrupt. There were several large suicide bombings in Iraq. We discovered Iran had added several thousand centrifuges. Rand announced that 31% of our military has suffered mental illness or TBJ. And we decide the leader of our country based on....flipping the bird?

[russ_watters]

Are you serious? Do you actually think someone who is running for president would risk his entire campaign by flipping his opponent off?

Not to be sexist, but there's a strange pattern in this thread.
You're being sexist. I hadn't posted, but I agree with "them" on this one. Of course, I'm a republican, so my opinions about democratic candidates don't really count...

Seriously, though - why do you think McCain has gained so much ground in the national polls over these guys?

[edit] I didn't watch the video, so I don't really know if he did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption he did for the sake of the argument (whether it is ok to be petty and immature).

[Art]

It bodes well for Obama's campaign if this is the best his critics can come up with then it shows what a strong candidate he is. Once Obama has the nomination McCain will begin to get the media attention too and given a choice between someone who might have flipped the finger to his somewhat bitter and twisted opponent and someone who doesn't even grasp the most elemental facts of the opposing forces in Iraq I suspect most people with even half a brain will vote for Obama which based on the last election and discounting election fraud might be enough to give him a narrow win :biggrin:

[phoenixy]

... And we decide the leader of our country based on....flipping the bird?

It is even better because no one actually flipped the bird. This is modern American politic at its finest absurdity.. Hey but if the GOP keep repeating this lie, it could become the new truthiest talking point.

Bonus pic: thumbs up!
http://stevenberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/bush-finger.jpg
http://nyquil.org/uploads/BushFlip.png

[Astronuc]

It's possible that some folks see him 'flipping' and others do not. Also, it appears to me that under the gun, Obama was feeling a little flustered and scratched his cheek in a way that appears to some to be 'flipping' the finger. I'm not sure, although I tend to agree with Gokul.

I've been told by a teacher that kids to something like that in school.


I understand that Obama scratches his cheek periodically during public addresses, or perhaps debates, which are rather contentious. In other words, what he did is a habit, but the way he did it is controversial and subject to misinterpretation. On the other hand, maybe he did 'flip the finger'. * undecided *


McCain is enjoying the lack of scrutiny at the moment, while Clinton seems to try to trash her opponent. I do think it unfortuate that Obama is responding to Clinton rather than taking the high road. During the debates, they don't need to be talking about the media and the attacks, but rather they need to be addressing the issues, such as the Iraq War and the war on terror (financed off-budget), energy policy, education, health care, taxation and the excessive federal debt, social security (based on government IOU - but they've don't spent it), national security, foreign relations.

So much for the General Welfare and Domestic Tranquility.

[cristo]

I'm undecided too; it does look quite accidental, but he sniggers afterwards, but then is this due to his comment or his action?

Either way, I don't think it really matters whether it's intentional or not: the fact is that he is running to be voted to run for the president of the US. If the reaction of the country is as split as it is in this thread, then it will affect things. In fact, anything that happens in the next year is going to affect his campaign, whether it's intentional or not!

[BobG]

When he did all of those...stooped to negative campaign tactics, whined, and played the race card, plus flipping off his opponent. And, I have YET to hear from him what he actually plans to do as part of this "change" thing. He talks a big game, but I haven't seen any substance to back it up...no change there, just more of the same (worse, the few things I've heard him "promise" have been phrased in a way that have not promised anything...you could take it any way you wanted...clearly that's his strategy). At least I've heard some specifics from Hillary on what she plans to do and HOW she plans to do it. Still, they've all stooped to the same old dirty campaign tricks that I'm sick and tired of. Frankly, I'm disappointed in the whole bunch of them. I just wish we could get a decent candidate to step up to the plate for a change, but they all got washed out early because apparently the backstabbing and bickering pulls in the campaign dollars...this is a presidential campaign, not the Jerry Springer Show.

Ironically, Jerry Springer started out in politics. He resigned from the city council when a raid of a massage parlor showed that he paid for a prostitute by check. The way he handled the scandal helped him win back his city council seat the next year. In fact, he used the cancelled check in his later campaign for governor of Ohio (along with the slogan that Springer wasn't afraid of the truth, even when it hurts), but it surprisingly failed to win the nomination for him.

[Astronuc]

I'm undecided too; it does look quite accidental, but he sniggers afterwards, but then is this due to his comment or his action? The sniggering makes one wonder - certainly. Was he sniggering because he did flip, or didn't flip but then realized the audience might think he did, or was he sniggering because of the audience.

In any event, non-substantive debates are turning into a media circus and that is unbecoming with repsect to such a serious matter, which is the process of electing the next president of the US.


Either way, I share the disappointment of which several have expressed it herein.

[russ_watters]

I do think it unfortuate that Obama is responding to Clinton rather than taking the high road. During the debates, they don't need to be talking about the media and the attacks, but rather they need to be addressing the issues, such as the Iraq War and the war on terror (financed off-budget), energy policy, education, health care, taxation and the excessive federal debt, social security (based on government IOU - but they've don't spent it), national security, foreign relations.
I haven't watched much of the debates, but certainly in the last one, the moderators fanned the flames by focusing for so long on the gaffes instead of the issues. Of course, that could just be because the candidates themselves are saying more about each other than about the issues.

[W3pcq]

Don't you guys recall McCain yelling F#$% Y&% to a person while in congress. Also threatening reporters. Who do we really need to worry about as far a foreign relations? Assult the wrong leader and you could have a war on your hands.

[W3pcq]

In my opinion, the reason Obama wants to run a respectful campaign is because he is afraid that he is too easy a target for negative spins. This way whenever he gets attacked, he can call it a game and say it's childish, and that he wouldn't stoop to that level. Hilary might be playing those cards too if she wasn't so desperate. McCain might be playing those cards too because there many ways to spin him negatively as well.

[Werg22]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4

I think this makes the flipping off hypothesis highly implausible.

I just amazed at the absurdity of the situation.

[drankin]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4

I think this makes the flipping off hypothesis highly implausible.

I just amazed at the absurdity of the situation.

I've just watched it for the fourth time. I assume they have a big screen display in front of him somewhere and if you watch the black man behind him to his right, you see him begin to smile a moment right after Obaman did the "scratch/flip". Nowhere do you see him scratch his face with his middle finger as a course of habit in any other footage. Because of the topic and the appropriate moment one could make such a gesture for effect, I think he really did flip the bird. It isn't "implausible". It fits his dialog perfectly. He did it in such a way to allow deniability. He's no idiot, immature maybe, but not an idiot.

My grandfather loves it I'm sure. The middle finger is our family symbol thanks to him. He greets everyone with it.

Sure, we all reserve the right to flip someone off. It's perfectly human, but not necessarily the kind of display people want in their president. Call it mature restraint.

[Astronuc]

Sure, we all reserve the right to flip someone off. It's perfectly human, but not necessarily the kind of display people want in their president. Call it mature restraint. Not all people flip off someone else, even when angry or upset. It would never occur to me to do that.

[W3pcq]

I guess we have three types of candidates one that will think f you and smile, one that will be sly and gesture it but deny it, and one that will flat out say it in your face.

[drankin]

I guess we have three types of candidates one that will think f you and smile, one that will be sly and gesture it but deny it, and one that will flat out say it in your face.

Wouldn't you respect someone more saying it to your face rather than being sly or giving you a loaded grin? I know I would.

[W3pcq]

I hate loaded grins!

[W3pcq]

You can't go around yelling F you to everyone you disagree with and expect to get elected though.

[drankin]

You can't go around yelling F you to everyone you disagree with and expect to get elected though.

Of course, and noone actually goes around doing that to "everyone".

[lisab]

I had to watch the clip twice to even see it. It's a big stretch to me, but it looks like something Fox News would play over and over and over again.

[Ivan Seeking]

The sniggering makes one wonder - certainly. Was he sniggering because he did flip, or didn't flip but then realized the audience might think he did, or was he sniggering because of the audience.

The flow seemed perfectly natural to me. He made the comment about Hillary being in her element, the crowd reacted, Obama reacted.

But this is I think the most important point: There is no way to be sure, and there is every reason to think this was nothing but a scratch [to me there is very little doubt], but the problem is that people are willing to assume that this is something based on virtually nothing.

How can anyone logically justify the assumption that this was anything but a scratch? There is virtually NO evidence of this, and what we do have becomes completely subjective. This is logic?

This is the sort of nonsense that gave us Bush, and Iraq! Wise up people!

[TVP45]

Would it be OK to merge this thread with the "horoscopes" thread and then we could compare the candidates that way? It might be less speculative than basing an election on a hand gesture that somebody thinks they saw on YouTube.

[Astronuc]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4 This is a longer piece from a speaking engagment in Raleigh, NC, so Clinton is not even present. It would make no sense to flip someone who is not present, so after seeing that, I'd have to conclude he simply scratched his cheek.


Now Obama mentions that it was 45 minutes into the debate before they spoke about any issues. I would have hoped he would have tried to redirect the debate to talk about issues - but the ne probably felt compelled to address the attacks on him. I didn't watch the debate directly.


As for McCain, although I've heard some substantive discussion, I've heard much more empty platitudes.


I'd like to know why members of the Bush administration are making it more difficult for veterans (from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) to get the treatment and benefits to which they are entitled. Such obstruction is unconscionable.

[Gokul43201]

Russ, this post makes very little sense to me.

Seriously, though - why do you think McCain has gained so much ground in the national polls over these guys?

[edit] I didn't watch the video, so I don't really know if he did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption he did for the sake of the argument (whether it is ok to be petty and immature).McCain has gained so much ground because RNC operatives have gone door to door, bribing voters.

[edit] I don't really know if they did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption they did for the sake of the argument.

I can't believe this thread has gone this far, and almost entirely on gross speculation!

[drankin]

Note that, if he did mean to raise that finger for what it means, he did it in a way that is deniable. So even if he meant it, we can't say he did and it would be wrong to assume. I read it to mean yes I'm saying "F-you Hillary" but shame on anyone that would see it that way. Sly.

[Gokul43201]

I don't believe there's either the room or the provision for large screen displays in the Kerr Scott Building.

[drankin]

I don't believe there's either the room or the provision for large screen displays in the Kerr Scott Building.

Are you serious? They could put dozens of screens in this place.

??

http://www.ncstatefair.org/facilities/SCOTT.HTM

[Gokul43201]

I've just watched it for the fourth time. I assume they have a big screen display in front of him somewhere and if you watch the black man behind him to his right, you see him begin to smile a moment right after Obaman did the "scratch/flip". Your entire argument here is predicate upon the completely unfounded assumption that there is a big screen display somewhere. Does it not at all occur to you that the person in the back was responding to the comment and not to some thing he saw on a possible display? Heck, your argument only works against you if it turns out that there was no big screen display in the room.

Nowhere do you see him scratch his face with his middle finger as a course of habit in any other footage.You've watched all footage of Obama speeches ever made? I've seen a lot of speeches and I know I've seen him scratch himself many times, but I wasn't paying attention to which fingers he used. In just this 4 minute clip, you see him scratch his face with 3 different fingers!

PS: Proof that there was NO big screen display in the room: Barack Obama Raleigh 360 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cpspipCcYko)

This is now getting pretty pathetic. Can we quit with the speculation already?

[russ_watters]

Russ, this post makes very little sense to me.

McCain has gained so much ground because RNC operatives have gone door to door, bribing voters.

[edit] I don't really know if they did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption they did for the sake of the argument.

I can't believe this thread has gone this far, and almost entirely on gross speculation! Yes, clearly you missed my point completely. It's not that hard:

A logical argument starts with a premise and then has a logical conclusion/argument based on the premise. Two parts. The first couple of pages of the thread were concerned with the argument, and there was disagreement over it. I weighed-in on that. And in this case, whether he did or he didn't, these two are certainly running a negative campaign. I was commenting on that. You are concerned with whether Obama flipped Clinton off. I'm concerned over whether it would be ok if he did. I think that question is much more interesting than if he actually did.

You've never stipulated to a premise just to examine the logical argument that follows from it? Here's one we see all the time in here: Soviet communism didn't work very well. See the two parts and where people could build an argument about either part? People will argue the Soviets didn't have communism - I would argue that by whatever name you call it, it didn't work. Another obvious one: Bill Clinton should be impeached for getting a BJ from Monica Lewinski in the Oval Office. Did he? Didn't he? By now we're pretty sure he did, but at the time I found it very interesting that people sill wanted him to be President even if they stipulated to the premise that he did.

Now, with your little thought experiment about McCain - if I responded that I'd vote for him anyway, wouldn't you find that interesting? People here are getting wrapped-up in the pettyness - becoming part of it. But despite all the he-said/she-said BS, people would still vote for one of these two even if they think they are being petty little children. I find it very interesting (and disturbing) that Democrats are ok with having a petty little child as President.

[Gokul43201]

Yes, clearly you missed my point completely. It's not that hard:

A logical argument starts with a premise and then has a logical conclusion/argument based on the premise. Two parts. The first couple of pages of the thread were concerned with the argument, and there was disagreement over it. I weighed-in on that.The first 2 pages of the thread as well as the next two, were concerned with whether or not Obama flipped Hillary the finger. I see only one or two posts in the first 50 that address the more general topic you refer to.

And in this case, whether he did or he didn't, these two are certainly running a negative campaign. I was commenting on that.To put Obama's campaining style in the same category as Clinton's suggests either that you are a Clinton supporter (which I know you are not), or that you haven't been following them closely enough (which is likely, since you aren't voting for either).

The difference is night and day.

You are concerned with whether Obama flipped Clinton off. I'm concerned over whether it would be ok if he did. I think that question is much more interesting than if he actually did. I think I would have understood which point you were addressing if you had made an argument for why it might be okay.

Now, with your little thought experiment about McCain - if I responded that I'd vote for him anyway, wouldn't you find that interesting? People here are getting wrapped-up in the pettyness - becoming part of it. But despite all the he-said/she-said BS, people would still vote for one of these two even if they think they are being petty little children. I find it very interesting (and disturbing) that Democrats are ok with having a petty little child as President.This is an example of you making an assumption (that some people voting Dem think Obama & Clinton are being petty little children) and then going on to make a broad conclusion about a group of people (registered Dems or people voting for a Dem this year) that are not bound by the constraints of your assumption.

If I was voting for Obama, it would not be despite my thinking he was a petty little child, it would be because I think he isn't.

But to address the point of voting for little children, one could easily argue that it might simply be the better of two choices. And, Russ, as someone who voted twice for a brainless goof, it should hardly be surprising to you that a lack of good alternatives might drive some people to vote for petty children, particularly if they see it as being in their economic interest.

[drankin]

Your entire argument here is predicate upon the completely unfounded assumption that there is a big screen display somewhere. Does it not at all occur to you that the person in the back was responding to the comment and not to some thing he saw on a possible display? Heck, your argument only works against you if it turns out that there was no big screen display in the room.

For one, I did not predicate ANY argument. For crying out loud read my post again. You are as guilty as reading into something as you are accusing me. I said "assuming" there is a display in front of Obama, which there usually is a display in front of a political speaker.

You've watched all footage of Obama speeches ever made? I've seen a lot of speeches and I know I've seen him scratch himself many times, but I wasn't paying attention to which fingers he used. In just this 4 minute clip, you see him scratch his face with 3 different fingers!

No, but if he did use his middle finger in other speeches, I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

PS: Proof that there was NO big screen display in the room: Barack Obama Raleigh 360 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cpspipCcYko)

There IS A DISPLAY in that room even on your youtube link! And your link is NOT PROOF as it is at the BACK of the room about 50yards away from the freakin stage! Cmon! Give me a 360 on the stage before you start calling "PROOF"! It doesn't even matter to me whether the man behind him saw it or not, doesn't change my mind. It would just reaffirm my suspicion if he dd.

[Gokul43201]

Fine. You're entitled to your superstition. I've seen Obama scratch his face dozens of times now, and only a few days back saw a clip where he scratched his forehead with his middle finger. And it didn't make the news because it didn't look like he was flipping the bird.

[Evo]

Fine. You're entitled to your superstition. I've seen Obama scratch his face dozens of times now, and only a few days back saw a clip where he scratched his forehead with his middle finger. And it didn't make the news because it didn't look like he was flipping the bird.One thing is for sure, he's going to have to stop that habit. We can't have our President scratching himself with his middle finger all of the time. :rofl: I'm surprised his personal advisors hadn't made him stop that already. That's their job.

[Cyrus]

Wow, 5 pages on something so trivial. Even if the man gave hillary the middle finger and said 'f her', I wouldnt care.

[Astronuc]

One thing is for sure, he's going to have to stop that habit. We can't have our President scratching himself with his middle finger all of the time. :rofl: I'm surprised his personal advisors hadn't made him stop that already. That's their job. :rofl: Right on, Evo!

[seycyrus]

Wow, 5 pages on something so trivial. Even if the man gave hillary the middle finger and said 'f her', I wouldnt care.

What I find interesting is that people injecting the idea this commotion is being caused by the republicans or by a certain news channel.

Give me a break.

I watch *both* the evil and the holy news channel (I'll let you decide which is which), as well as the slath of Sunday morning news hour things. This is the first place I've seen this issue discussed.

[BobG]

One thing is for sure, he's going to have to stop that habit. We can't have our President scratching himself with his middle finger all of the time. :rofl: I'm surprised his personal advisors hadn't made him stop that already. That's their job.

Actually, that idea isn't any funnier than reminding him not to scratch his butt in public, not to scratch his crotch in public, not to look at the ceiling while trying to remember what he wants to say next, not to keep filling in the silent gaps in speeches with something like "um" or "okay", not to keep mispronouncing "nucular", etc.

[pinestone]

If the US presidency depended on intelligence, ability, compassion and truth we would have an empty chair.

[NeoDevin]

If the US presidency depended on intelligence, ability, compassion and truth we would have an empty chair.

No, but you'd probably have to have a foreigner in office.

[drankin]

No, but you'd probably have to have a foreigner in office.

Do you have a specific foreign nationality in mind, or was this just an insult towards Americans?

[NeoDevin]

Do you have a specific foreign nationality in mind, or was this just an insult towards Americans?

We can go with Canada, since that's where I'm from. But I was just poking a bit of fun at Americans.

[drankin]

Be nice. You know how it goes, one can make fun of his own sibling but if someone else does you take offence.

[NeoDevin]

Now now, if someone makes fun of my brother or sister, I join in.