What is the purpose of sentient life?

[cjcottell]

The Universe is a pool table, the big bang is the first strike and entropy will result in all the balls in the pocket. This version of the Universe is dictated by fate, everything could be calculated.
Life occurs, and although it is more complex without awareness it is still a ball bouncing around the table, the plant turns to face the sun but does not choose to.
Sentient life occurs, it can influence the game but what should it decide to do?

I’ve been pondering this for a while now (I have other bad analogies with candles) but my question is the same - What is the purpose of sentient life?

If we now have the opportunity to set ourselves a goal what should we set? The best I’ve come up with so far is if the Universe will end should we not try and find another way to exist (ok this is a long way off but would boil down to the pursuit of knowledge). But again I reason why is the survival of life worthwhile.

[Evo]

There doesn't have to be any purpose.

[JoeDawg]

The best I’ve come up with so far is if the Universe will end should we not try and find another way to exist (ok this is a long way off but would boil down to the pursuit of knowledge). But again I reason why is the survival of life worthwhile.

They are inter-related. In order to figure out what purpose you want to give your life, you have to survive long enough to decide. Once you have a purpose, you need the resources to survive long enough to reach your goal.

However, its not the goal thats important, or even that you reach it.
Purpose is about having a goal and pursuing it.

[Evo]

They are inter-related. In order to figure out what purpose you want to give your life, you have to survive long enough to decide. Once you have a purpose, you need the resources to survive long enough to reach your goal.

However, its not the goal thats important, or even that you reach it.
Purpose is about having a goal and pursuing it.Perhaps a better question to ask is as you suggested "should we have goals?".

[JoeDawg]

Perhaps a better question to ask is as you suggested "should we have goals?".

I know, I should. Mom says I don't apply myself enough though.

[Anticitizen]

The ultimate purpose of life is to live. Survival is the top priority for all living things. Natural selection ensures this. Any traits that lead to non-survival of a species by definition means they do not survive. Survival of one's personal life typically falls second to survival of the genetic code, as evidenced by creatures that die after giving birth, or mother bears that fight to the death to protect her cubs.

The purpose of all living things is to go on living.

[JoeDawg]

The ultimate purpose of life is to live.

Given the fact that everything we know dies, and most things that live never procreate, that hardly seems correct. In fact one could easily say the opposite, based on statistics.
And you might as well say the purpose of a rock is to just sit there.

Sitting there may be what it does, but that doesn't imply a purpose.
A purpose is not what it does, its why it does it.

[a4mula]

The ultimate purpose of life is to live. Survival is the top priority for all living things. Natural selection ensures this. Any traits that lead to non-survival of a species by definition means they do not survive. Survival of one's personal life typically falls second to survival of the genetic code, as evidenced by creatures that die after giving birth, or mother bears that fight to the death to protect her cubs.

The purpose of all living things is to go on living.

Survival isn't purpose. If you're the car, survival is the highway, not the destination. Each living vessel on this planet is serving some purpose. Survival has allowed them to accomplish that.

As far as our purpose? To each their own. Every single individual has a different answer to that question. I see no reason to believe that there is some overarching scheme in which we're cogs playing a role. We're not cells making up an organ, we're not organs making up an organism. Society could possibly be considered as a super-entity in which our participation dictates a larger unseen outcome, but as we look back through history and the chaos and disorganization of past cultures I find that difficult to believe.

[SDetection]

I don't know if this will help but, my definition of consciousness is :
The state in which an entity is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling any aspect of its prior state which it unwillingly/unconsciously memorized.

for example :
a plant turns to face the sun as a tree sprouts leaves in the spring because that's what its genome codes it to do.
The tree here is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling an aspect from its genome but, as the tree itself didn't unwillingly/unconsciously memorize it, the tree is unconscious in regard to this aspect.
But according to the definition, there is something conscious here !, but what is it !!?....
The two functions (unwilling/unconscious recalling and unwilling/unconscious memorizing) must be in one entity to be considered conscious.
So, I think the conscious entity here is the evolution of this tree's species that is unwillingly recalling the mutations which it unwillingly memorized in the genome of this tree's ancestors !.
What also assists this theory is that, when you examine species, you will find that they fit their environment very well, it's like they are created by a super-conscious being , which actually very true but it just happened to be evolution !.

So, our super-conscious god is actually super-conscious evolution.
This should reconcile religion with science !, shouldn't it ? :smile:.

[Focus]

I don't know if this will help but, my definition of consciousness is :
The state in which an entity is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling any aspect of its prior state which it unwillingly/unconsciously memorized.

for example :
a plant turns to face the sun as a tree sprouts leaves in the spring because that's what its genome codes it to do.
The tree here is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling an aspect from its genome but, as the tree itself didn't unwillingly/unconsciously memorize it, the tree is unconscious in regard to this aspect.
But according to the definition, there is something conscious here !, but what is it !!?....


So by this a rock is also conscious because it always falls down hill.

[SDetection]

So by this a rock is also conscious because it always falls down hill.

You know, I have a strong feeling that consciousness is related to the law of conservation of energy ! :smile:.

[a4mula]

I don't know if this will help but, my definition of consciousness is :
The state in which an entity is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling any aspect of its prior state which it unwillingly/unconsciously memorized.

for example :
a plant turns to face the sun as a tree sprouts leaves in the spring because that's what its genome codes it to do.
The tree here is unwillingly/unconsciously recalling an aspect from its genome but, as the tree itself didn't unwillingly/unconsciously memorize it, the tree is unconscious in regard to this aspect.
But according to the definition, there is something conscious here !, but what is it !!?....
The two functions (unwilling/unconscious recalling and unwilling/unconscious memorizing) must be in one entity to be considered conscious.
So, I think the conscious entity here is the evolution of this tree's species that is unwillingly recalling the mutations which it unwillingly memorized in the genome of this tree's ancestors !.
What also assists this theory is that, when you examine species, you will find that they fit their environment very well, it's like they are created by a super-conscious being , which actually very true but it just happened to be evolution !.

So, our super-conscious god is actually super-conscious evolution.
This should reconcile religion with science !, shouldn't it ? :smile:.

Evolution is not an entity however. It's a mechanism of nature, a law so to speak that we've given a label to describe the process in which through countless generations of entities the ones that are most fit for survival tend to.

This would be akin to saying gravity, time, physics, mathmatics or any other label that we have created to describe our existence is conscious.

I believe you're trying to make this a chicken or egg scenerio. Did evolution create involuntary physiological actions, or are involuntary physiological actions the driving force of evolution?

Since evolution is not an entity then I believe the answer to that is obvious.

[Kronos5253]

The Universe is a pool table, the big bang is the first strike and entropy will result in all the balls in the pocket. This version of the Universe is dictated by fate, everything could be calculated.
Life occurs, and although it is more complex without awareness it is still a ball bouncing around the table, the plant turns to face the sun but does not choose to.
Sentient life occurs, it can influence the game but what should it decide to do?

I’ve been pondering this for a while now (I have other bad analogies with candles) but my question is the same - What is the purpose of sentient life?

If we now have the opportunity to set ourselves a goal what should we set? The best I’ve come up with so far is if the Universe will end should we not try and find another way to exist (ok this is a long way off but would boil down to the pursuit of knowledge). But again I reason why is the survival of life worthwhile.

From a personal standpoint, I find the purpose of living is to keep evolving "spiritually" (through your consciousness and soul, or however you'd like to put it), and to continue the process of evolution through the means we have available to us. To help others to evolve "spiritually" with us. Not necessarly in a religious sense, but if you want to use that as an analogy, it's not a bad place to start. Every religion has the same underlying concept. I.E. do unto others as you would have others do unto you. To be a good person because it's the right thing to do. Some religions achieve this by incorporating a higher power, like Catholicism and Judaism, and some do it through other means like Native American religions and Paganism. In the aforementioned ones, they use Heaven as a representation of the next level of "spiritual" evolution. From there you can continue through the stages of "spiritual" evolution.

Mind you, I don't mean any of this in a religious sense, at least not as far as the standard religion means it. Think more along the lines of Buddhism and reaching Nirvana. Reaching Nirvana, according to Buddhist beliefs, ends the reincarnation cycle of death and rebirth. Think of that as achieving the next level of our "spiritual" evolution. And there are many stages to this evolution.

[arildno]

What is the purpose of sentient life?

The same as the purpose of a rock, perhaps?

We are so bio-centred in our thinking, ecologists are the worst of the lot.

I say we need to treat granite with more respect than we do today, and empathize with their lot and purpose.

I know, they are slow to anger, but we should try to placate them nonetheless.

[a4mula]

From a personal standpoint, I find the purpose of living is to keep evolving "spiritually" (through your consciousness and soul, or however you'd like to put it), and to continue the process of evolution through the means we have available to us. To help others to evolve "spiritually" with us. Not necessarly in a religious sense, but if you want to use that as an analogy, it's not a bad place to start. Every religion has the same underlying concept. I.E. do unto others as you would have others do unto you. To be a good person because it's the right thing to do. Some religions achieve this by incorporating a higher power, like Catholicism and Judaism, and some do it through other means like Native American religions and Paganism. In the aforementioned ones, they use Heaven as a representation of the next level of "spiritual" evolution. From there you can continue through the stages of "spiritual" evolution.

Mind you, I don't mean any of this in a religious sense, at least not as far as the standard religion means it. Think more along the lines of Buddhism and reaching Nirvana. Reaching Nirvana, according to Buddhist beliefs, ends the reincarnation cycle of death and rebirth. Think of that as achieving the next level of our "spiritual" evolution. And there are many stages to this evolution.

While this is quite eloquent, I don't see how it differs from the idea that any form of adaptation and evolution constitute purpose.

It's difficult to evaluate ourselves. Let's for a moment step down a level and apply this concept to something that's easier to see.

Does a cell's ability to adapt to new hostile environments constitute purpose? Of course not. Regardless of what the cell's purpose is, it's ability to survive its surroundings is merely a method to continue it's original goal. If the cell is successful at adapting to this new threat then it stands to reason that the cell has improved. It has become more fit and successive generations of that cell will be stronger for it. It will perform it's purpore more effeciently. That does not however equate to survival/adaptation/evolving/learning being it's purpose.

If one really wants to talk about the purpose of humans then we need to be prepared to face the concept that perhaps our existence here isn't benign. The only thing that we as a society have brought to the table of nature has been destruction. We have taken a planet that is a perfect picture of balance and harmony and have spread to every corner of it with our endless consumption. We consume, from the beginning of time that has been our purpose, and we're accomplishing it with frightening effeciency.

Agents of Entropy... interesting.

[Kronos5253]

While this is quite eloquent, I don't see how it differs from the idea that any form of adaptation and evolution constitute purpose.

It's difficult to evaluate ourselves. Let's for a moment step down a level and apply this concept to something that's easier to see.

Does a cell's ability to adapt to new hostile environments constitute purpose? Of course not. Regardless of what the cell's purpose is, it's ability to survive its surroundings is merely a method to continue it's original goal. If the cell is successful at adapting to this new threat then it stands to reason that the cell has improved. It has become more fit and successive generations of that cell will be stronger for it. It will perform it's purpore more effeciently. That does not however equate to survival/adaptation/evolving/learning being it's purpose.

If one really wants to talk about the purpose of humans then we need to be prepared to face the concept that perhaps our existence here isn't benign. The only thing that we as a society have brought to the table of nature has been destruction. We have taken a planet that is a perfect picture of balance and harmony and have spread to every corner of it with out endless consumption. We consume, from the beginning of time that has been our purpose, and we're accomplishing it with frightening effeciency.

Agents of Entropy... interesting.

Well within that reasoning, then the purpose of that evolutionary chain would be to become "perfect". In the "spiritual" sense in which I wrote, you would keep evolving until you reach "perfection".

The problem that humanity has is its sense of use. Everything is seen for its usability (is that a word? lol). Historically speaking that hasn't always been the case. Neanderthals meshed well with their environment. They created a balance between them and their environment, just like almost every other organism in nature.

Some peoples still follow traditions similar to that. Read up on Native American culture and how they balance their beliefs with nature. If they use something they give thanks, make sure they use all of it, and balance what they use with their environment.

[a4mula]

Well within that reasoning, then the purpose of that evolutionary chain would be to become "perfect". In the "spiritual" sense in which I wrote, you would keep evolving until you reach "perfection".

The problem that humanity has is its sense of use. Everything is seen for its usability (is that a word? lol). Historically speaking that hasn't always been the case. Neanderthals meshed well with their environment. They created a balance between them and their environment, just like almost every other organism in nature.

Some peoples still follow traditions similar to that. Read up on Native American culture and how they balance their beliefs with nature. If they use something they give thanks, make sure they use all of it, and balance what they use with their environment.

I see the point that you're making. It does not however change my point. No matter how "perfect" a fly becomes, it still serves a use. It has a purpose. That purpose is not to become the greatest garbage disposal unit possible. It's purpose is waste disposal period.

While we as a species strive towards perfection, it does not define our purpose. As far as I'm aware we're the only thing, living or not, that has yet to have a purpose defined.

Ants irrigate, Bees pollinate, Trees oxyginate... ect ect.

No matter how effecient (perfect) they become at their purpose, it does not superscede it. It only enhances their ability to accomplish it.

[Kronos5253]

I see the point that you're making. It does not however change my point. No matter how "perfect" a fly becomes, it still serves a use. It has a purpose. That purpose is not to become the greatest garbage disposal unit possible. It's purpose is waste disposal period.

While we as a species strive towards perfection (whatever that means) it does not define our purpose. As far as I'm aware we're the only thing (living or not) that has yet to have a purpose defined.

Ants irrigate, Bees pollinate, Trees oxyginate... ect ect.

No matter how effecient (perfect) they become at their purpose, it does not superscede it. It only enhances their ability to accomplish it.

I see what you're saying. Although what I describe is still a purpose, it just may not necessarly be the purpose.

I have more to my response, just not enough time to type it lol I'll be back to finish the thought though :)

[a4mula]

This is pretty far out there, I might get reprimanded for throwing an idea out there that is beyond speculative. I feel it is worth consideration however, if nothing else as a stimulation for thought.

I've briefly touched on the concept of pieces that make up wholes. At the most basic level of our current understanding are Particles.

Particles combine (yeah, yeah) to form Atoms, that combine to form Molecules, that combine to form Amino Acids, that combine to form Proteins, that combine to form Cells, that combine to form Organs, that combine to form Organisms, that combine to form Societies.

I admit that Society is a much more abstract concept then the physical layers that precede it. For the moment, lets put this aside and continue with our chain.

Planets/Stars combine to form Solar Systems, combine to form Galaxies, combine to form Universes.

Do you notice something here? Our chain is broken. Societies do not combine to form Planets.

I believe it's going to be all but impossible (all but mind you) for us to discover our purpose through conventional observational means. We're too close. We are unable to see the forest through the trees so to speak.

In lieu of that perhaps a different approach is needed. If we assume for a moment that this chain is whole then we need to figure out a few things. How do we go from societies to planets, and secondly how we as a society play a role on the planet. By observing the systems around us instead of ourselves perhaps we can fit the puzzle together to see what part it is we play.

Lets look at our own body for an answer. Our body is made of organs, and we've determined that organs combine to form organisms. Yet the organs are not all that our bodies our made of. There are bones, and there is blood, there is hair and many other things that do not constitute organs. They are the systems in place that support the organs. They are the infrastructure that allows the organs to do their job.

With that being said we could claim that the land, rivers, oceans, and such of the planet are the infrastructure that is in place to support the "organs" of the Earth. Which would be it's societies.

Still with me? As systems grow they become more complex. The layer below each is unaware of the layer above it. Cells float around and they're oblivious to the organs they create. Organs have no understanding of the Organism. Organisms are blind to the societies that they part of.

Are ants aware of their society? They may have a basic understanding that they serve a role, they probably understand that they are part of something larger. To concede that they have an understanding that their society is responsible for the irrigation of this planet however is beyond the stretch of even my imagination. They are unaware of their purpose.

Sure, we know that there is a society. Being able to say the abstract word and understanding it however are two entirely different things. What is our purpose within our society? What is our society's purpose within the planet?

This is what we're hunting for. Not our personal purpose, yet the purpose that we as a collective serve to whatever layer is above us. We can call it planet for visual representation purposes.

I know this sounds trite. Giving Earth some humanistic characteristics. Giving it life. Consider what I've written however and then ask yourself again just how far fetched it really sounds when you consider this chain of life and how it doesn't stop with us, but continues into infinity for all we know.

It should be noted that there is a certain organ in our body that consumes. It reshapes it's landscape. It creates networks of information passage. The brain accounts for roughly 2pct of our total body weight, yet consumes about 20 percent of the body's resources. Sound familiar?

[SDetection]

Evolution is not an entity however. It's a mechanism of nature
Is nature an entity ?. if so, then I think evolution can be considered an entity because it's part of nature ?.

This would be akin to saying gravity, time, physics, mathmatics or any other label that we have created to describe our existence is conscious.
No, I didn't say that, I said :
The two functions (unwilling/unconscious recalling and unwilling/unconscious memorizing) must be in one entity to be considered conscious.

Also there is a degree of consciousness, and it varies from time to time. After all we were in the past (and still can be) as conscious/unconscious as a rock.

I must say that I have a hard time with the terminology, as I must use our conscious language to define consciousness. Maybe when it becomes an equation, it will be unambiguous.

[a4mula]

Is nature an entity ?. if so, then I think evolution can be considered an entity because it's part of nature ?.


Nature is not an entity, it's a label. Evolution is not an entity, it's a label. We have created these concepts to help explain the world around us. We know that through random mutations any given life form will either a) become more fit, b) become less fit, or c) have no change in their fitness.

If that life form becomes more fit then it has a higher rate of survival and a greater chance to reproduce and pass that mutation to it's offspring. That's it. That's evolution in a nutshell. Natural selection and survival of the fittest. It's just a label we've stuck on that process. Evolution does not imbue life with anything. Mutations do.



No, I didn't say that, I said :

Also there is a degree of consciousness, and it varies from time to time. After all we were in the past (and still can be) as conscious/unconscious as a rock.

I must say that I have a hard time with the terminology, as I must use our conscious language to define consciousness. Maybe when it becomes an equation, it will be unambiguous.

I'd like to say that I'm seeing what you're getting at here, but the truth is I'm just not getting it. We as a species have always had some form of consciousness even if it was less then we possess today. Never was it at the level of nothing, which a rock can claim. If you're referring to our biological ancestors of lipids and proteins then I think you might be missing one critical difference.

The chemical stew that sparked life on this planet was capable of recomposing it's makeup. A rock is not. A rock may weather, it might be smoothed by a river, but it's composition never changes. It is incapable of adaptation. The chemicals floating around that started this entire "life event" didn't require consciousness. It is not a prerequisite for life. It merely required probability, and the ability to adapt.

The Miller-Urey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) experiment was conducted in 1952. It shows how base chemicals can come together to create amino acids required for life. It's an interesting study that goes a long way towards supporting the the theory of Evolution.

[SDetection]

Nature is not an entity, it's a label. Evolution is not an entity, it's a label.

Not according to the definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity) :smile:.

[a4mula]

Not according to the definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity) :smile:.

"An entity is something that has a distinct, separate existence"
Via your link.

I'm not sure I follow your meaning. How does nature have any existence? Trees have existence, animals have existence, even rocks have existence. Nature however is just the label we place on the culmination of all of these things. It is not distinct or seperate from the parts that make it up.

[SDetection]

"An entity is something that has a distinct, separate existence"
Via your link.

you forgot to add the part in bold font :smile:.
An entity is something that has a distinct, separate existence, though it need not be a material existence. In particular, abstractions and legal fictions are usually regarded as entities.


I'm not sure I follow your meaning. How does nature have any existence? Trees have existence, animals have existence, even rocks have existence. Nature however is just the label we place on the culmination of all of these things. It is not distinct or seperate from the parts that make it up.

Remember, for an entity, "separate" here doesn't mean from parts that make an it up , rather from other entities. You know that a tree/rock is not separate from its parts, yet it's an entity. An entity can be abstract, for example, a Meme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme) is not a physical entity, yet it acts exactly as one.

[Blenton]

Our purpose is linked to the laws of physics for it is these laws alone that have given rise to us. If we were not required in the great scheme of the universe, then physics wouldn't have came together to form the first lifeform on this planet.

[Evo]

you forgot to add the part in bold font :smile:.That doesn't apply to nature or evolution. "law" is not an entity even though you can create a "legal entity", do you see the difference?

[Evo]

Our purpose is linked to the laws of physics for it is these laws alone that have given rise to us. If we were not required in the great scheme of the universe, then physics wouldn't have came together to form the first lifeform on this planet.Sorry, that makes no sense.

[SDetection]

That doesn't apply to nature or evolution. "law" is not an entity even though you can create a "legal entity", do you see the difference?

Law is an abstract entity maybe ? . As we say "the law says...", "break the law", or "the law forbids...".

[a4mula]

Our purpose is linked to the laws of physics for it is these laws alone that have given rise to us. If we were not required in the great scheme of the universe, then physics wouldn't have came together to form the first lifeform on this planet.

I've noticed this trend a lot recently. It reaches even the highest levels of physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_ensemble). I personally believe it's a mistake for us to assume that the concepts that we have created as a reflection of our reality have in turn created us.

In the link above Max Tegmark, physics professor MIT, proposes an idea similiar to what you've stated. His belief is that because mathmatics are the universal language and that everything in our universe can be defined with math then it only stands to reason that our universe is created purely from math. Not only the laws that define it, but reality itself.

We have been mesmerized with digital logic and the eloquence of the binary language. It's simple to imagine how our reality can be converted into an algorithm. All the while it's easy to forget that the concepts we have created are all a reflection of the reality we experience, not vice-versa.

When did it become more important to solve an abstract representation of reality then understanding reality itself? I'm a firm believer that our universe is based on fundamental laws that in turn can be represented by an equation. Making the leap from that to our reality being an equation however?

Throughout the years many missteps have been made trying to find an eloquent solution. There is something to be said for eloquence but at the end of the day it has to represent the baggage or it's for naught.

These concepts do a very good job of mimicing our existence. That's what they are designed to do. Computer programs, logic algorithms, physics models. In the end however they're just models. They are not the hand, paintbrush, or canvas of our reality.

[Quincy]

There is no real purpose to life. Life is just the result of a series of events; you can give life a mundane purpose, but there is no universal/divine purpose of life. As Steven Weinberg once said, "We are not actors in a drama that has been written with us playing the starring role... We are the result of billions of years of accidents."

Here is Steven Weinberg's view on the purpose of life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2cBYRIXG5A

[a4mula]

There is no real purpose to life. Life is just the result of a series of events; you can give life a mundane purpose, but there is no universal/divine purpose of life. As Steven Weinberg once said, "We are not actors in a drama that has been written with us playing the starring role... We are the result of billions of years of accidents."

Here is Steven Weinberg's view on the purpose of life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2cBYRIXG5A

I have alot of respect for Weinberg. Fundamentally everything that that you've said is correct. I think however that by taking this overarching view of the lack of a universal/divine purpose one is missing the obvious.

Perhaps our existence is merely the sum of billions of years worth of accidents (I prefer adaptions but it's only semantical). Does that however diminish the value that any individual system provides? I like using ants, bees, and trees as examples because it's easy for us to see the direct value they provide. It's difficult to say that these systems don't have a purpose. Their purpose is evident.

Just because we're unable to see the purpose that we serve does not mean it's non-existent. Every example we see in our reality (not just nature) has purpose. Is it part of some greater scheme, some overarching cosmic plan? It doesn't need to be. Our universe is entropic. The higher the order the less the entropy. Does that not by it's own definition determine that we must serve a purpose?

I'd implore anyone interested in this concept to study Fractal Geometry, Chaos Theory, and how phi is represented over and over in our universe. There need not be a divine purpose. The laws that govern our universe fill that need on their own.

[WaveJumper]

Our purpose is linked to the laws of physics for it is these laws alone that have given rise to us. If we were not required in the great scheme of the universe, then physics wouldn't have came together to form the first lifeform on this planet.



Sorry, that makes no sense.


I find it somewhat annoying that certain physicists so hastily try to dismiss any and all effort to find meaning in the existence of the universe. It's almost like a frantic religious movement seeking to prove that life is meaningless.

If the laws of physics weren't what they are, we wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be a universe for us to describe. I strongly believe sentient life is a part of the equations and the laws of physics are the language of god(though god may very likely be not what most people imagine).

If one cannot explain where the laws of physics came from, I wonder why they would even bother to make the sweeping generalisation that the existence of the universe is objectively meaningless?

[Kronos5253]

Nature is not an entity, it's a label. Evolution is not an entity, it's a label. We have created these concepts to help explain the world around us. We know that through random mutations any given life form will either a) become more fit, b) become less fit, or c) have no change in their fitness.

If that life form becomes more fit then it has a higher rate of survival and a greater chance to reproduce and pass that mutation to it's offspring. That's it. That's evolution in a nutshell. Natural selection and survival of the fittest. It's just a label we've stuck on that process. Evolution does not imbue life with anything. Mutations do.




I'd like to say that I'm seeing what you're getting at here, but the truth is I'm just not getting it. We as a species have always had some form of consciousness even if it was less then we possess today. Never was it at the level of nothing, which a rock can claim. If you're referring to our biological ancestors of lipids and proteins then I think you might be missing one critical difference.

The chemical stew that sparked life on this planet was capable of recomposing it's makeup. A rock is not. A rock may weather, it might be smoothed by a river, but it's composition never changes. It is incapable of adaptation. The chemicals floating around that started this entire "life event" didn't require consciousness. It is not a prerequisite for life. It merely required probability, and the ability to adapt.

The Miller-Urey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) experiment was conducted in 1952. It shows how base chemicals can come together to create amino acids required for life. It's an interesting study that goes a long way towards supporting the the theory of Evolution.

I think you might be missing something here..

Nature itself is not a concept that we created. The word we use to describe nature, and the word nature itself is a label. But nature exists outside of humans, so how can nature only be a concept that we created? Nature itself is an entity, it has a rhythem, and energy of it's own.

Evolution does not imbue life with anything. Mutations do.

I don't necessarly agree, because mutations ARE evolution. The mutations create the differences within an organism that help it to survive the environment that it's in, and that process we call evolution.

[Evo]

I find it somewhat annoying that certain physicists so hastily try to dismiss any and all effort to find meaning in the existence of the universe. It's almost like a frantic religious movement seeking to prove that life is meaningless.

If the laws of physics weren't what they are, we wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be a universe for us to describe. I strongly believe sentient life is a part of the equations and the laws of physics are the language of god(though god may very likely be not what most people imagine).

If one cannot explain where the laws of physics came from, I wonder why they would even bother to make the sweeping generalisation that the existence of the universe is objectively meaningless?The laws of physics were here billions of years before we were and will continue to exist long after we are gone. We are not necessary for the laws of physics to exist. Why are so many people so afraid to accept that we most likely are nothing more than a freak accident?

[a4mula]

I think you might be missing something here..

Nature itself is not a concept that we created. The word we use to describe nature, and the word nature itself is a label. But nature exists outside of humans, so how can nature only be a concept that we created? Nature itself is an entity, it has a rhythem, and energy of it's own.

I don't want to make this a debate of attrition or semantics, but this is an important concept in my opinion. Nature does not exist. Animals exist. Plants exists. Rivers exist. Mountains exist. Bacteria exist. While it's true all the things I've just listed are also "labels" they're attached to objects that are real. Nature however is not real, it's abstract. It's a concept that emcompasses all of the things that I mentioned. It's not real and cannot have any life-like qualities such as rhythm or energy.



I don't necessarly agree, because mutations ARE evolution. The mutations create the differences within an organism that help it to survive the environment that it's in, and that process we call evolution.

It's good to not agree. It stimulates conversation that in turn stimulates thought. If I end up sticking around this forum for any amount of time you'll notice a trend. I'll state many different contradicting points of view. I like the debate. I like playing Devil's Advocate to extract the maximum amount of consideration from a topic.

As far as mutations equating to evolution. We don't call an engine in a vehicle the car. Mutation is a part of evolution that entails other aspects such as survival and selective breeding. Again, Mutation is real. Evolution is abstract. We can find mutations under the microscope, we'll never find evolution there however.

[a4mula]

The laws of physics were here billions of years before we were and will continue to exist long after we are gone. We are not necessary for the laws of physics to exist. Why are so many people so afraid to accept that we most likely are nothing more than a freak accident?

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? If anything the fact that life (against all odds mind you, entropy... ) has managed to come together, regardless of how, would seem to indicate that there is order amongst chaos in the universe and that there is purpose.

Everything we study shows purpose. Why are we special in the sense that we do not have a role to play? Is that really the case, or are we just unable to see it?

[WaveJumper]

The laws of physics were here billions of years before we were and will continue to exist long after we are gone.


True but we still don't have a good grasp of this puzzling notion - Time. 14 Billions of years can be 4 seconds in the right frame of reference. Even distance is a human concept that gets challenged by both SR and QM.


We are not necessary for the laws of physics to exist.


But those laws are here. What purpose would F=m.a serve if we were not here? It's a law of classical physics and without us the classical world would simply not exist. So what/who put this classical law in place that obviously serves no other purpose than to provide the right environment for sentient life to exist(in the classical/macro domain)?


Why are so many people so afraid to accept that we most likely are nothing more than a freak accident?


On a personal level, i don't agree this statement fits all the observations.

[Evo]

But those laws are here. What purpose would F=m.a serve if we were not here?The same as if we weren't here.

It's a law of classical physics and without us the classical world would simply not exist.What? No law of physics sprang into existence when we appeared on the planet.

So what/who put this classical law in place that obviously serves no other purpose than to provide the right environment for sentient life to exist(in the classical/macro domain)?No "thing" had to put anything into place.

[WaveJumper]

But those laws are here. What purpose would F=m.a serve if we were not here?



The same as if we weren't here.


I don't think so. When we are here, F=m.a is one of the classical laws that provides the framework for the existence of this orderly and predictable classical world. If we weren't here, F=m.a would serve no purpose, since an orderly and predictable environment is not necessary in world devoid of life. In fact, the predictability of the classical world and the friendliness of the fundamental constants towards life is a puzzling situation for those believing that the universe is a fluke.



It's a law of classical physics and without us the classical world would simply not exist.

What? No law of physics sprang into existence when we appeared on the planet.




True, but the classical world is a sub-domain of this otherwise quantum universe. It's only us , the sentient beings, that perceive the universe as a solid, physical object. Without us, what we term 'the universe' is just quantum fields. The notion of a classical world would exist for as long as sentient beings exist. Those quantum fields would probably continue to act "classically" even if we are not around, but what does it matter? Imagine there were a stick made from an other worldly substance that did not interact with the electromagnetic force. Would this stick 'notice' if the quantum fields within our universe exhibited a classical behaviour by constituting/forming a classical object like a Moon or an Earth? It's the same with neutrinos - do they 'notice' the classical world when they pass right through the Earth and then right through the Sun? From their POV(if it were possible), does a classical universe exist?


So what/who put this classical law in place that obviously serves no other purpose than to provide the right environment for sentient life to exist(in the classical/macro domain)?

No "thing" had to put anything into place.


Yet it is in place. In order to be able to answer the question in the OP, we need to consider the issue in its broadest sense. That includes tackling the thorny question of the origin of the laws of physics and why they are here.

[Evo]

I don't think so. When we are here, F=m.a is one of the classical laws that provides the framework for the existence of this orderly and predictable classical world. If we weren't here, F=m.a would serve no purpose, since an orderly and predictable environment is not necessary in world devoid of life. Nonsense. You are stating that the laws of physics aren't necessary without humans. I think you need to stop and think about that.

If we weren't here, obviously we wouldn't need to name it, but that applies to everything, doesn't it? What impact does us naming anything have on what happens in the universe? Nothing. What is represented by what we call the law of motion exists without us, as does every other "law". We have no significance outside of what ever we want to claim. Does it impact anything else? No.

[Kiwi-lad]

As my friend Jay Fitzgerald wrote: "The choice to exist is inherently irrational".

[Blenton]

The laws of physics were here billions of years before we were and will continue to exist long after we are gone. We are not necessary for the laws of physics to exist. Why are so many people so afraid to accept that we most likely are nothing more than a freak accident?

You have a very bleak outlook. I thought about the whole nothingness argument, we're mistakes etc etc, then i think about the rest of the universe. Laws of gravitation explain why planets and stars form, its not a freak occurrence. It was done because the system is in a lower state of energy (dont go quoting relativity if this is incorrect).

Higher laws of physics will explain why we form. Why the forces come together and form life. We see it as a freak occurrence, and while the variation of life may be seen as random because of the sheer number of factors involved, at the simplest base ~ amino acids, DNA etc which were all required for our life HAD reason if I can only explain it in the same reason of why planets form.

[WaveJumper]

Nonsense. You are stating that the laws of physics aren't necessary without humans. I think you need to stop and think about that.

If we weren't here, obviously we wouldn't need to name it, but that applies to everything, doesn't it? What impact does us naming anything have on what happens in the universe? Nothing. What is represented by what we call the law of motion exists without us, as does every other "law". We have no significance outside of what ever we want to claim. Does it impact anything else? No.


I said only the laws of classical physics were not necessary if there were no sentient beings to experience the classical world. Not all laws of physics.

Anyway, there is a principal difference in our opinions - you seem to adhere to the school of thought that posits that blind chaos and randomness can create strict beautiful physical laws that have the ability to hold for tens of billions of years. Those same laws that created us. When i open up a quantum physics textbook, i don't view the thousand equations and correlations that describe only a part of our reality, as something random, worthless and unnecessary. I view those highly complex equations as the language of god, the code behind the experience of reality. You say it's random, OK. But this is just a belief, to me it's more like a belief in miracles that i can find no justification for. (and i am an atheist towards any and all religions).


It's worthy of a separate title/topic but anyway - could anyone propose an idea why there is a classical world at all? (beside the obvious - for sentient life to emerge and experience it). And i should have said "an appearance of a classical world" аs it only appears so.

String theorists have moved in the right direction comparing vibrating strings to the strings of a musical instrument. Strings create harmony because there is inherent harmony in reality everywhere, at all times and those strings are said to vibrate in "strange" unison to create what we experience. If there was only bleak dark chaos in the quantum fields, i'd agree that some sort of an emergent classical "world" could be a random event. But those fields have certain "emergent" properties and abilities to create a structured and predictable classical world and their very un-random dance creates such harmony that one has to be blind to miss it. There has to be an underlying reality to account for all this perceived orderliness and harmony. QM can provide no answers why certain states are selected from all the eigenstates and i definitely don't believe god is playing dice.

BTW, if the classical world wasn't intended for sentient beings like us(i.e. was completely random), why is it so comprehensible in such great details? Is this pure luck or is it something else?

[a4mula]

I said only the laws of classical physics were not necessary if there were no sentient beings to experience the classical world. Not all laws of physics.

Anyway, there is a principal difference in our opinions - you seem to adhere to the school of thought that posits that blind chaos and randomness can create strict beautiful physical laws that have the ability to hold for tens of billions of years. Those same laws that created us. When i open up a quantum physics textbook, i don't view the thousand equations and correlations that describe only a part of our reality, as something random, worthless and unnecessary. I view those highly complex equations as the language of god, the code behind the experience of reality. You say it's random, OK. But this is just a belief, to me it's more like a belief in miracles that i can find no justification for. (and i am an atheist towards any and all religions).


It's worthy of a separate title/topic but anyway - could anyone propose an idea why there is a classical world at all? (beside the obvious - for sentient life to emerge and experience it). And i should have said "an appearance of a classical world" аs it only appears so.

String theorists have moved in the right direction comparing vibrating strings to the strings of a musical instrument. Strings create harmony because there is inherent harmony in reality everywhere, at all times and those strings are said to vibrate in "strange" unison to create what we experience. If there was only bleak dark chaos in the quantum fields, i'd agree that some sort of an emergent classical "world" could be a random event. But those fields have certain "emergent" properties and abilities to create a structured and predictable classical world and their very un-random dance creates such harmony that one has to be blind to miss it. There has to be an underlying reality to account for all this perceived orderliness and harmony. QM can provide no answers why certain states are selected from all the eigenstates and i definitely don't believe god is playing dice.

BTW, if the classical world wasn't intended for sentient beings like us(i.e. was completely random), why is it so comprehensible in such great details? Is this pure luck or is it something else?

I see both sides of this coin. On one hand we know that highly complex systems will evolve from very simple initial starting conditions (cellular automaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life), chaos theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory), fractals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal)). On the other hand the system in which we live seems to be perfectly tailored not only for our existence, but so much more. Recently a new concept has been theorized. It started in Computer Science, but is quickly gaining favor in other circles such as biology, physics, and economics. It's been coined Edge of Chaos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_of_chaos).

Let's consider two opposite ends of the spectrum. On one hand we have Order. In ordered systems very little change takes place. Entropy is at the absolute minimum. While this might sound like a utopia to some, in reality it's a pretty dull place. One of the driving factors for evolution of course is change. In ordered systems change comes at such a slow rate that it would not be a very viable place for life. We thrive on diversity.

On the other hand we have Chaotic systems. Entropy is high and the only constant is change. In true chaotic systems (note, this is different than complex systems) life is not possible either. In this type system the basic laws of physics would not even exist. Consider the initial conditions of the big bang, or the singularity of black holes.

As these chaotic systems lose energy they naturally come to rest in more ordered systems. What was once an open system diverges into multiple closed systems. We know that in closed systems entropy is no longer the driving force. Now we're getting somewhere.

This is where the complex system fits in. Closed systems that border on chaos, that have not yet fallen into an entirely ordered state. Here we maximize the potential of evolution by introducing "ordered chaos", change that is dictated by a ruleset. The ruleset is a byproduct of these systems converging towards order.

This supports both the topdown view of creation (bigbang) as well as the bottom up approach that we see when we look at patterns of creation. It's eloquent to say the least. While this doesn't solve our purpose, it should allow us to at least concede that the laws that govern our existence are indepedent of both our existence, as well as their own!

[Coldcall]

The only possible purpose for biology in this universe is that the universe fails to exist as a reality without it. Perhaps we should consider biology as an emergent though causal factor in the universal reality we experience.

People talk of top-down or bottom-up approaches. Lets look at the most sophisticated bottom-up approach we can see delivered by nature; evolution. Its complexity is stunning and appears telelogical but in fact has come about through billions of years of feedback trial and error.

So we see nature uses bottom-up almost as a default, at least in the process of evolution. So why would nature not use the same bottom-up approach for universal creation? What if the evoltuionary process we have noted in biology is actually just a continuation of the same process engineering which created the universe in the first place?

Some people may think thats crazy. I see no other logical alternative.

[Red Fox]

My outlook on this question is that the concept of "purpose" does not exist outside of the conceptual world of humans. Purpose is not some inherent quality attached to each object, atom, etc., it is a word and a concept that we have invented. I don't think you can apply the concept of purpose (or, in my opinion, any concept) in such a grand context.

[a4mula]

The only possible purpose for biology in this universe is that the universe fails to exist as a reality without it. Perhaps we should consider biology as an emergent though causal factor in the universal reality we experience.

People talk of top-down or bottom-up approaches. Lets look at the most sophisticated bottom-up approach we can see delivered by nature; evolution. Its complexity is stunning and appears telelogical but in fact has come about through billions of years of feedback trial and error.

So we see nature uses bottom-up almost as a default, at least in the process of evolution. So why would nature not use the same bottom-up approach for universal creation? What if the evoltuionary process we have noted in biology is actually just a continuation of the same process engineering which created the universe in the first place?

Some people may think thats crazy. I see no other logical alternative.

When we look at our local level we know that everything is built from this bottom up process. Intuitively it would lead us to the conclusion that everything shares this same mechanism. The evidence does not support that however. When we step back and consider it a little further, while intuitive it's not very logical.

How do you "build" a planet? If it's merely the sum of it's parts then you run into a problem. The parts (us, animals, plants ect) require the planet to be formed before they can exist. Evolution creates the framework that supports life as life itself is created, planets however do not.

We want everything to be explained in a neat package. I've referred often to these systems that begin from simple starting conditions to form extremely complex systems. They're beautiful and I personally cannot help but be drawn to how elegant the concept is. It's alluring to think that at the very heart of our reality is a single pattern/algorithm/formula that is used to express everything.

At this particular moment, and it's quite likely to change as my thoughts and opinions often do, I lean towards the concept that our laws do not define our reality. These laws are merely a byproduct of systems coming to a natural resting state of order. Different systems have different laws and while there might be common ground among all of them, they are not inherently compatible. That is to say there is no single defining pattern to it all.

I've personally come full circle during this thread. My thoughts on it started that purpose was defined only by the individual. As I considered the patterns of nature I felt like maybe we did serve a higher, yet unseeable, purpose. Now that I dismiss these patterns as being unrelated I come back to the concept that we are just cosmic correlations.

[Coldcall]

"How do you "build" a planet? If it's merely the sum of it's parts then you run into a problem. The parts (us, animals, plants ect) require the planet to be formed before they can exist. Evolution creates the framework that supports life as life itself is created, planets however do not."

This is a good point. And is what is at the heart of the telelogical question in biology. One thing that perhaps adds weight to telelogical arguments in biology is how we now know that biological functions also provide important feedback which send signals back to our dna gene expression, in order that for instance it produce more or less proteins of a type which create ion pathways. These control muscle and nerve activity.

I hope ive not miseld anyone into thinking evolution and biology are totally bottom-up processes. They seem to have developed a signal bi-directionality which is what perhaps makes biology so special compared to the rest of the matter in the universe.

You're right its very confusing subject :-)

[SDetection]

I hope ive not miseld anyone into thinking evolution and biology are totally bottom-up processes. They seem to have developed a signal bi-directionality which is what perhaps makes biology so special compared to the rest of the matter in the universe.

You're right its very confusing subject :-)

IMHO, I think biology is abstraction of chemistry which is by itself abstraction of physics.
In regard to mathematics, I think it's the practical way to predict what might happen in Time.

[Kein]

IMHO, I think biology is abstraction of chemistry which is by itself abstraction of physics.
In regard to mathematics, I think it's the practical way to predict what might happen in Time.
No, you made a selfish abstraction over other fields, physics is not chemistry and chemistry is not biology. Human life contains spiritual values that can not be replaced by a math formula. And mathematics is not at all about Time.

[SDetection]

No, you made a selfish abstraction over other fields, physics is not chemistry and chemistry is not biology. Human life contains spiritual values that can not be replaced by a math formula. And mathematics is not at all about Time.

Before we continue, I must warn you that I'm going to learn from you and then trick you and make you put your own gun against your head :smile:.
Do you still want to go on? :devil:.

[Count Iblis]

Sentient life occurs, it can influence the game but what should it decide to do?


It cannot influence anything because the very same laws of physics that govern everything also apply to these sentient beings. What happens is that the sentient beings have some awareness about their surroundings and then it feels to them as if they have a choice to do one thing or another thing. But that feeling arises from the fact that you can have two different brain states giving rise to the same subjective awareness that will result in two different actions in the near future.

[SDetection]

It cannot influence anything because the very same laws of physics that govern everything also apply to these sentient beings.

Yes, I don't believe in free will either, because I think future events are only triggered by past ones.

[Coldcall]

Sdetection,

"IMHO, I think biology is abstraction of chemistry which is by itself abstraction of physics.
In regard to mathematics, I think it's the practical way to predict what might happen in Time."

Thats the bottom-up reductionist line, but i prefer taking a more systems approach to biology, and complexity in general. Thats not to knock reductionism but its clear that as the universe has evolved new properties and laws have emerged. And though they evolved from simpler basic beginnings (the reductionist approach) the whole is now greater than the sum of its parts.

Its why i argue that purpose or teleology has in fact emerged from nature's own hand. This does not mean nature herself is telelogical but she instead took billions of years to blindly create telelogical systems such as humans.

We are as natural a phenomenom as stars; hence telelogical functionality is at least indirectly also a product of the universe.

[SDetection]

Thats not to knock reductionism but its clear that as the universe has evolved new properties and laws have emerged.
Hi, I'm not getting that, which laws that have emerged?.
And though they evolved from simpler basic beginnings (the reductionist approach) the whole is now greater than the sum of its parts.

How the "whole is now greater than the sum of its parts' ?, could you give me an example?.

[Coldcall]

SDetection:

"Hi, I'm not getting that, which laws that have emerged?"

The laws and forces in the universe have all emerged from the BB. As a simple example: Electro-magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces all emerged from a unified force as the universe cooled post BB.

"How the "whole is now greater than the sum of its parts' ?, could you give me an example?"

All biology is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. A simple test is to ask yourself whether by understanding an atom you understand how the human body functions? The answer is No. So a human is greater than the sum of his/her parts.

[a4mula]

SDetection:

"Hi, I'm not getting that, which laws that have emerged?"

The laws and forces in the universe have all emerged from the BB. As a simple example: Electro-magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces all emerged from a unified force as the universe cooled post BB.

"How the "whole is now greater than the sum of its parts' ?, could you give me an example?"

All biology is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. A simple test is to ask yourself whether by understanding an atom you understand how the human body functions? The answer is No. So a human is greater than the sum of his/her parts.

The entire concept of emergence is one that I find difficult to come to terms with. Energy is a zero sum reality from what we understand. It cannot be gained it cannot be lost. When we come to the conclusion that some how "the whole is greater than the parts" we have to explain how a system has gained this additional energy.

We hear about emergence alot. In natural systems people use it to describe "collective consciousness". The funny thing is that this term isn't just some far fetched fringe idea. It's used to describe how complexity is achieved from simple starting conditions.

I'll jump to ants again. A single ant is quite simple. By itself it would never accomplish much. A colony of ants however seem to converge together to create a system much more complex than can be described by many ants. This is emergence. The "collective consciousness" of the colony.

It doesn't stop with ants. Any system that appears to show more complexity than it should will quickly have the "emergence" label slapped on it. We hear about it alot when we discuss consciousness. How in the world can simple neurons create such a complex perception of reality? Instead of trying to come to a better understanding of this process, some are satisfied to just label it as something beyond understanding and move on.

Sounds like mysticism doesn't it? It does to me too. We can look at fractal patterns and see how simple starting conditions applied in many iterations come together to form complex systems without the need to invoke emergence.

Is a combustion engine emergent? If you say no then I'd like to understand why. No single part of the engine is capable by itself of performing the task that the complete engine does. By it's very definition complex systems become more complex the higher up the chain you go. It's not a stretch of the imagination to make the statement that humans are more complex than atoms. It's a given. I don't understand a need to make a connection between that and stating that because we understand atoms, we must be able to understand humans otherwise there is a mystical energy-free force called emergence taking place.

Interaction, not emergence. When we look at individual parts we entirely dismiss the interaction that takes place with other parts. It's this interaction that creates complexity, and will never be seen as we break down the parts. Interaction is a property of a part, just one that isn't seen when you're not considering the group. Because it's a property of the parts then the sum doesn't increase!

^^^
The single most convulted thing I've ever written.

To sum it up. Emergence isn't required to come to terms with complexity. Only the consideration of interaction. Interaction is a property of parts which is only observable when amongst a group. This explains why when we only look at an individual part, we cannot describe or understand the system.

[Coldcall]

a4mula,

"The entire concept of emergence is one that I find difficult to come to terms with. Energy is a zero sum reality from what we understand. It cannot be gained it cannot be lost. When we come to the conclusion that some how "the whole is greater than the parts" we have to explain how a system has gained this additional energy."

I'm not sure where you got the idea that an emergent property requires more energy than the sum of its parts. When we say the whole is greater than the sum of its parts we are not talking about energy content. We mean that the whole is now in a completely new configuration, with new abilities and functionality.

"It's a given. I don't understand a need to make a connection between that and stating that because we understand atoms, we must be able to understand humans otherwise there is a mystical energy-free force called emergence taking place."

Who is talking about a mystical energy? There is no need. layers on layers of simplicity create complexity. This is all very natural and no need for mystical stuff.

[jnorman]

the purpose of sentient life is to assist in the ultimate goal of the universe - that all things which can possibly occur, do occur.

based on what we currently know of physics, there is no "thing" there - there are point particles (which occupy no space) which are the manifestations of various field, such as electrons and quarks which make up all that we perceive as matter, and there is energy.

also, from quantum theory, we now understand that everything is based around a set of probablilities. the bell curve, as applied to all types of human behavior, is an excellent demonstration of the variation of all possible occurences or states. eg, good and evil - most of us are somewhere around the middle, with increasingly fewer people occupying places under the curve as you reach the ends of pure good (perhaps jesus) or pure evil (hitler?)

the universe is an experiment in possibilities, based on the curves of probablility. sentient life, not content to simply lay on the ground and breath, is encouraged to seek out the entire range of activities and experiences which are available to it, from the most horror-laden to the most sublime. sentient life is an extension of creation by which the universe can observe and experience itself.

ha. :-)

[Red Fox]

I have skimmed through the posts in this thread, and to me it seems like half the people are talking about one thing while the rest are talking about something else. First off, saying that sentient life forms are participants in some cosmic game and can choose to influence events one way or another is rather vague, and borders on implying that sentient beings have some fairy tale version of free will (not to mention it assumes that there is such a thing as free will at all). Second, there is no point in hypothesizing a solution to a problem that does not necessarily exist. Purpose is not a prerequisite for existence. Third, as i said in my previous post, purpose is an invented concept that only exists in relation to certain other concepts, situations, etc in our own minds. Lastly, why would only sentient life have a purpose? Why not inanimate objects. If you are going to treat purpose as a property, you have to distinguish what that property applies to and why. Certain properties apply only to certain things, and are meaningless outside of their native context.

[WaveJumper]

Yes, I don't believe in free will either, because I think future events are only triggered by past ones.


If you really believe this, what's keeping you from jumping off a high building? Seriously, if you can't change or influence absolutely anything in how your life plays out, what's the point in being "alive"(whatever that means in this scenario)?

I know what i would do if that were the case.

[Count Iblis]

If you really believe this, what's keeping you from jumping off a high building? Seriously, if you can't change or influence absolutely anything in how your life plays out, what's the point in being "alive"(whatever that means in this scenario)?

I know what i would do if that were the case.

Precisely the fact that we can't change anything!

We cannot change the basic programming in our brains that has evolved over millions of years to take care of our bodies in the best possible way.

[WaveJumper]

Precisely the fact that we can't change anything!

We cannot change the basic programming in our brains that has evolved over millions of years to take care of our bodies in the best possible way.


But if there is no "I"... reality gets more gloomy than our brains can imagine. What could be worse than this? Even an evil creator god seems a far better choice.

The "I" is everything and anything. We can't lose this, you are all wrong. I don't think many "people"(HAHA) could live with such knowledge.

[Red Fox]

If you really believe this, what's keeping you from jumping off a high building? Seriously, if you can't change or influence absolutely anything in how your life plays out, what's the point in being "alive"(whatever that means in this scenario)?

I know what i would do if that were the case.


You already know that you, everyone you know, everything you are fond of, and every piece of evidence that you ever existed will eventually be dead and gone. What difference does having free will make. Also, a lack of free will does not mean that one cannot influence how their life plays out, that is preposterous. The actions you take have consequences with or without free will. As to why someone who does not believe in free will doesn't just kill themselves, why would they? Does believing that there is no free will make food taste any worse or jokes seem less funny? There does not have to be an unequivocal point to being alive.

[Count Iblis]

But if there is no "I"... reality gets more gloomy than our brains can imagine. What could be worse than this? Even an evil creator god seems a far better choice.

The "I" is everything and anything. We can't lose this, you are all wrong. I don't think many "people"(HAHA) could live with such knowledge.

You brain is calculating you in a virtual world modeled after the real world (using information that you get via your senses). So, the "I" is nothing more than an algorithm that a brain is running. From the perspecive of the algorithm many things exist that do not exist in the real world. E.g. if you feel pain then that's something that exist in the fictitous virtual world calculated by your brain, not in the real world.

[SDetection]

If you really believe this, what's keeping you from jumping off a high building? Seriously, if you can't change or influence absolutely anything in how your life plays out, what's the point in being "alive"(whatever that means in this scenario)?

I know what i would do if that were the case.
You don't have a free will :smile:, you said that because I said the following:
Yes, I don't believe in free will either, because I think future events are only triggered by past ones.

I just pushed you off a cliff, but you didn't notice that because it happens at a higher abstraction layer than a physical push.

[Math Is Hard]

I just pushed you off a cliff, but you didn't notice that because it happens at a higher abstraction layer than a physical push.

What do you mean by that?

[Phrak]

Sentient life does not have a purpose. 'Purpose' is a misapplied anthropomorphic projection. It is something like wondering if the purpose of hot water is to boil.

(What in the blue blazes does 'sentient' mean? I guess a particular mass of brain cells arranged in a particular way is sentient, and the rest of the insentient masses of brain cells are dumb animal brains. But I find myself in a philosophy thread where words come equipped without the debilitating baggage by way of association with measurable physical things that would distract horribly from the richness of discussion.)

[Red Fox]

Sentient life does not have a purpose. 'Purpose' is a misapplied anthropomorphic projection. It is something like wondering if the purpose of hot water is to boil.

(What in the blue blazes does 'sentient' mean? I guess a particular mass of brain cells arranged in a particular way is sentient, and the rest of the insentient masses of brain cells are dumb animal brains. But I find myself in a philosophy thread where words come equipped without the debilitating baggage by way of association with measurable physical things that would distract horribly from the richness of discussion.)

Exactly what i said before. Purpose is an invented concept.

[SDetection]

What do you mean by that?

I meant that my action triggered her/his action. She/He didn't have a choice but to respond. In other words, what happened in the past determines what will happen in the future. But the more the physical interactions are abstracted the harder it becomes for physical science to predict/measure/study/simulate this new level of abstraction. As for example, when certain sounds are abstracted in our brains into speech. our consciousness, thoughts, concepts and imaginations are just abstraction of simpler physical interactions...

[Pythagorean]

There doesn't have to be any purpose.

In terms of logic, I agree. But the human experience is pretty meager with only logic. Psychologically, most people need purpose (I would even venture to say everyone, though they disguise it in different ways: whether deriving importance from their work or their point of view, or being part of a relgion).

Of course, I doubt there's a single objective purpose. Purpose is likely subjective and self-defined, which shouldn't demerit it any.

[Belzy]

Very simple, we are here to observe our surroundings and the universe itself so that it has a purpose for being here in the first place. What good is a universe with no one around to enjoy it?

[Count Iblis]

Very simple, we are here to observe our surroundings and the universe itself so that it has a purpose for being here in the first place. What good is a universe with no one around to enjoy it?

But what good is it to wait for Godot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot) all your life? :confused:

[Belzy]

But what good is it to wait for Godot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot) all your life? :confused:


See: John A. Wheeler's participatory principle

[SDetection]

SDetection:

"Hi, I'm not getting that, which laws that have emerged?"

The laws and forces in the universe have all emerged from the BB. As a simple example: Electro-magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces all emerged from a unified force as the universe cooled post BB.

"How the "whole is now greater than the sum of its parts' ?, could you give me an example?"

All biology is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. A simple test is to ask yourself whether by understanding an atom you understand how the human body functions? The answer is No. So a human is greater than the sum of his/her parts.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. You misunderstood my post. It's not about reductionism, but rather Emergence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Emergent_structures_in_nature), although I prefer to call it abstraction.

[WaveJumper]

All biology is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. A simple test is to ask yourself whether by understanding an atom you understand how the human body functions? The answer is No. So a human is greater than the sum of his/her parts.


...or, we could say we don't know the properties of the constituent parts too well(yet). The universe could well be 'alive' in some sense(although much different to what we are used to labeling 'alive'), and hence the emergent self-organising principles seen almost everywhere in nature and the uber-ridiculous precision of the values of the fundamental constants that shaped and guided the unfolding and evolution of the universe to its present state. It's funny how, if one day we manage to explain everything, this fact will pose serious philosophical questions(e.g. everything in the universe works according to some inherent logic that we humans, as we get more intelligent will be able to understand). On the other hand, if there is a phenomenon that cannot be explained for any period of time, it will also raise philosophical questions(i.e. it will remain close to our concept of 'magic'). There doesn't seem to be an in-between spot between these 2 possibilities.

[ibcnunabit]

From context, I believe you mean sapient life rather than sentient. (The term is very widely misused, even by some scientists.) Sentient = "has feelings", Sapient = "intelligent, reasoning". (For instance, mice are sentient, but not very sapient compared to humans.) Either way, it can be addressed.

LIFE's only "purpose" is to thrive and survive as long and as well as possible in order to procreate so that it can reproduce. Every force of evolution and biology serves those functions in some way. The only other purpose is what YOU CHOOSE to be your purpose. So the question comes back to you--what is your purpose? Only you can answer.

The Universe is not predetermined, even taking out sapient life. There are too many things at the quantum level (and up) which are inherently indeterminate or probabilistic and that cannot at all be predicted. But I'm not just talking about prediction--if you ran time backwards and then let it go forward again, you'd get what would start to be an slight, invisibly different universe that would drift into something completely different--the Butterfly Effect on a universal scale. This alone means that the universe is not mechanistic, or even deterministic.

Then there are many emergent phenomena, including Life, and culminating in the human mind, which add non-deterministic agents (in our case, of intentional behavior) that opens it up even more. By interacting with both information and matter/energy (through the body), the human mind is able to affect and change the future. Quantum variables constantly roll the dice; if just one certain neuron crosses the threshold and is able to fire, it can trigger a thought that causes a human to do something that changes the course of history (in a good OR bad way--or neutral). Because of the effects of this (it could be a President), the whole planet can be affected. And we know that all matter is affected, however minutely, by all other matter, which randomizes and shakes things up even more; by snapping my fingers, I am affecting the farthest star in the most delicate and indetectible of ways. Subtle quantum outcomes are coming out a bit differently. There's something profound in that.


--Mike from Shreveport

[WaveJumper]

If one takes causation seriously - one has to acknowledge that there is actually a reason why there is a universe and why it is the way it is.

If one thinks causation is an abstract notion in an abstract/illusory universe then yes, i agree there may not be a reason Why. But i don't support the idea that we live in such an unpredictable, lawless and indeterminate universe.

[kldickson]

You assume that it has a purpose.

I say it does not. It just is, through the evolution of a universe in which we are an insignificant cog.

[curiouso]

The ultimate purpose of life is to live. Survival is the top priority for all living things. Natural selection ensures this. Any traits that lead to non-survival of a species by definition means they do not survive. Survival of one's personal life typically falls second to survival of the genetic code, as evidenced by creatures that die after giving birth, or mother bears that fight to the death to protect her cubs.

The purpose of all living things is to go on living.



I think there was a long ago, where humanity could be harbored and constrained to design its sentient purpose by the instinctual, but I believe the sun has set. What if human consciousness in its exhausting longitude of questions, and its latitude of answers, that spawn the sphere of deeper questions, have changed humanity's purpose...I ask you, what is more important to the average American, survival or the fruition of our personal desire? Regardless of desire's content, whether it be scientific, philosophical, bent on some, somewhere the grass is greener, monetary greed, or otherwise, I think desire has become not just the genre, but the title of our human short story. How strange and short-lived we are in the grand scheme of planetary existence. I hesitate to stereotype everyone, but I think to myself, what if I were stripped entirely, of the dream to want, or desire, after having tasted the sweet severity of our human questions, or the answer that really just compounds its pondering, what would there be? For me, survival would probably mean nothing. If I never knew, well, maybe... but I do.

[Kilyke]

How strange and short-lived we are in the grand scheme of planetary existence. I hesitate to stereotype everyone, but I think to myself, what if I were stripped entirely, of the dream to want, or desire, after having tasted the sweet severity of our human questions, or the answer that really just compounds its pondering, what would there be? For me, survival would probably mean nothing. If I never knew, well, maybe... but I do.

Intriguing, but what does this say about purpose? Sure, we have desires, but those desires are no more our purpose than it is our purpose to survive. This is confusing what something DOES with its "purpose". Purpose isn't an action, its the goal of the actions. The purpose of working isn't to work, the purpose of working is to make money, gain experience, sell a product, ect. Likewise, the purpose of making money isn't to make money, it is to survive in our world. And the purpose of surviving is.... no one really knows.

The thing is, objects don't *have* any intrinsic purpose... it isn't a hammer's purpose to pound in a nail, that's OUR purpose for it. Purpose is really a synonym for "use." But what is the use of surviving? In other words, what is our use for ourselves? Usefulness or purpose isn't intrinsic to our being. Our purpose must come from a source external to us. A lot of people use God as that external source. God can have a purpose for us, but to ask what our purpose is without defining an external frame of reference is meaningless.

What is my purpose according to my genes? To survive and reproduce. What is my purpose according to my boyfriend? To provide love and companionship and to receive his love.

We don't have one purpose because it depends on who (or what) you ask.

[cosmo123]

Such typical answers for the scientifically minded. Either its pure biology, or its the quest for knowledge. We should get an artist to give their opinion. It will probably have something to do with painting.

[Botsiots]

The purpose must be just to live my life. And if I know I have positive and negative feelings and if I can understand that probably every other living thing has feelings like me then I have to think how I live. I have to try to understand what is necessary for me to live and what is not. Then I should try to think these things that are not necessary. Which of them are mostly good for everyone/everything and especially I have to think which of them might include some kind of violence toward someone/something(person/animal/ecosystem...). Then I think I can understand how I should live.
I still don't undertand How I should live, but I am trying to think things more seriously and also I have much to do with myself that i really take these into account in my way of life.

If it's possible for you to understand that you should let other organisms to live their life in their natural way then you should take that into account in your way of life or then I guess you can wait that someone will teach you to understand this.

One purpose might be to try to understand yourself better and better.

[Math Is Hard]

Old threads should rest in peace.