Why should or shouldnt this work?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a proposed mechanism for perpetual motion involving a ferrofluid and a magnet. Participants explore the feasibility of the concept, examining the physical principles at play, particularly in relation to buoyancy, gravity, and the behavior of ferrofluids under magnetic influence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a black ball made of ferrofluid could float due to its lower density compared to the surrounding fluid and proposes that it might move indefinitely, questioning the impossibility of perpetual motion under current thermodynamic laws.
  • Another participant challenges the idea by asking why the ball would fall due to gravity at a certain height and what changes at that point that would not have been present before.
  • A different participant explains that the ball's ascent is due to its lower density, but suggests that inertia would cause it to exit the ferrofluid and fall, indicating uncertainty about the mechanics involved.
  • One participant notes that a greater force than what the ferrofluid provides would be necessary to push the ball into the fluid, implying a need for additional energy input.
  • Another participant inquires if the energy required to push the ball into the ferrofluid increases as the ball rises, suggesting a relationship between height and energy requirements.
  • A later reply states that the ball would float to a point where its weight is balanced by the upthrust of the liquid, highlighting a flaw in the design that requires energy to push the ball out of the fluid.
  • One participant points out that ferrofluids behave differently due to magnetic fields, suggesting that normal fluid mechanics may not apply and that this could lead to contradictions in the proposed model.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the mechanics of the proposed system, with no consensus reached on the feasibility of the design or the principles governing its operation. Multiple competing views remain regarding the behavior of the ball and the ferrofluid.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the forces at play, particularly regarding buoyancy and the energy required to manipulate the ball within the ferrofluid. There are unresolved questions about the application of fluid mechanics to ferrofluids under magnetic influence.

intxi
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I know perpetual motion is something that scientists have been trying to manage nearly since the beginning of times. I know it is actually imposible to manage it under the (actual)laws of thermodynamics, but i have been thinking of something that apparently would work.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/2219/99126full.jpg
The black ball, would be ferrofluid and the grey/blue thing bellow would be a neodimiun magnet, which would keep the ferrofluid in that position. The grey ball would be less dense than the ferrofluid so it would float (the white arrows) and once it arrives to the maximun height it would fall due to gravity (black arrows).

Well taking all this into account we may think that the ball may move for ever but that is actually imposible under the actual thermodinamics, so I would like to know why wouldn't this work or if i won´t have to pay for electricity again:D

PD:sorry for my bad english i´m not a native speaker and I am only 16 xD
 
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Why would it "fall due to gravity" at that point? What happens there that wasn't happening before? And once it has fallen, why should it then go back up? There is the same force of gravity on it on the way up that was on it on the way down.
 
well, the ball would be less dense than ferrofluid, so it would float and consequently go up.
It will fall in that point because the inertia(i think its written like this) will throw the ball out of the ferrofluid and stopping the flotation, it will fall. This is what I think should happen but I´m not a physicist and that's why I ask you :D
 
a greater force than the ferrofluid provides would be required to shove the sphere into the fluid at the bottom. Do you understand what I mean?
 
Mm... so the higher the ball gets the more energy is required to shove the ball into the ferrofluid?(because the ferrofluid is higher too)
 
Assuming that the ball is able to enter the fluid it will float to a point close to the tip of the second white arrow and there it will stay some of it still submerged and at a position such that its weight is balanced by the upthrust of the liquid..The main flaw in the design is that energy will be needed to push the ball out of the fluid.
 
A ferrofluid is formed into that shape precisely because it has a magnetic field supporting it. It isn't behaving like a normal fluid and so you can't apply normal fluid mechanics to it (in this case, pressure and buoyancy). Applying inapplicable principles yields the contradiction you have found.
 

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