View Full Version : Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_harvard_scholar
The investigation of the incident is still on going but Obama said publicly that the police "acted stupidly," perhaps they did but anyone else thinks it is sort of premature to say so?
Also
"Obama said he could understand police responding in good faith if he was forcing his way into his old house in Chicago"
"Here I'd get shot," he joked.
Puts a dent on the Chicago police department
mheslep
Jul23-09, 05:03 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_harvard_scholar
The investigation of the incident is still on going but Obama said publicly that the police "acted stupidly," perhaps they did but anyone else thinks it is sort of premature to say so?
Yes, to use the Office of the US President to attack the Cambridge police on national TV without further details was, I'll say, lame.
gravenewworld
Jul23-09, 05:04 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – The white police sergeant criticized by President Barack Obama for arresting black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. in his Massachusetts home is a police academy expert on understanding racial profiling.
Cambridge Sgt. James Crowley has taught a class about racial profiling for five years at the Lowell Police Academy after being hand-picked for the job by former police Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black, said Academy Director Thomas Fleming.
"I have nothing but the highest respect for him as a police officer. He is very professional and he is a good role model for the young recruits in the police academy," Fleming told The Associated Press on Thursday.
Talk about mixed messages.
Pengwuino
Jul23-09, 05:06 PM
This is silly, when I broke into my neighbors house, the President didnt defend me one bit.
Wait did i just say that?
Ivan Seeking
Jul23-09, 05:21 PM
"Obama said he could understand police responding in good faith if he was forcing his way into his old house in Chicago"
"Here I'd get shot," he joked.
Puts a dent on the Chicago police department
Try to at least get the most elementary information correct. He joked about being shot if he was breaking into his house at the White House. When he said "my house" he realized that is a bit different being that he is the President.
He is also personal friends with Gates, which he made clear. He went on to say:
"What we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latino being stopped by policy disproportionately."
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25310.html#ixzz0M7VGkCSB
I would say it is more likely that the cops acted out a sense of superiority, than stupidly. They didn't like their authority being challenged. That is why he was arrested - he asked for their badge numbers - and that's why the charges were dropped.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 05:24 PM
The cop that arrested Gates is supposedly an expert in racial profiling.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly;_ylt=Aq80jc3wsWx0MvX 7FV12pd6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNmamU5OTRrBGFzc2V0A2FwLzI wMDkwNzIzL3VzX2hhcnZhcmRfc2Nob2xhcl9kaXNvcmRlcmx5B GNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNwRwdANzZWN0aW9uc19jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9 0b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2NvcHdob2FycmVzdA--
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 05:33 PM
Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?
The investigation of the incident is still on going but Obama said publicly that the police "acted stupidly," perhaps they did but anyone else thinks it is sort of premature to say so? Well, I'd say he created his own incident! Perhaps he was premature in that he didn't know what the facts were, but the facts of the incident were clear enough by then to anyone who reads the news that Obama really "acted stupidly" here. He put his foot in his mouth and he should apologize to the cop.
As for the professor, I guess he's just another race baiter. Coming home from a long trip and finding you've locked yourself out of your house is frustrating to say the least, so I can accept his initial reaction to the police being called as a frustrated indescretion. But it's been a few days now - he should have had time to calm down and realize he was just plain wrong and the cop was right. And even the woman who called the police - she was right too! The only person involved in the incident who was wrong is Gates.
gravenewworld
Jul23-09, 05:36 PM
1.) Gates was quite simply just a jerk. Just show the cop your DL politely and the situation is over in 2 minutes. No need to throw a hissy fit or be difficult.
2.) The cops screwed up by arresting him. People are allowed to be jerks on their own property. Disorderly conduct in a public space? WEAK. He was in his own house.
Gates was probably looking for a conflict when there didn't even need to be one. This incident is not important at all.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 05:37 PM
The cop that arrested Gates is supposedly an expert in racial profiling.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly;_ylt=Aq80jc3wsWx0MvX 7FV12pd6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNmamU5OTRrBGFzc2V0A2FwLzI wMDkwNzIzL3VzX2hhcnZhcmRfc2Nob2xhcl9kaXNvcmRlcmx5B GNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNwRwdANzZWN0aW9uc19jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9 0b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2NvcHdob2FycmVzdA-- Well that's just some real bad luck!
This is a perfect storm.
chemisttree
Jul23-09, 05:44 PM
1.) Gates was quite simply just a jerk. Just show the cop your DL politely and the situation is over in 2 minutes. No need to throw a hissy fit or be difficult.
2.) The cops screwed up by arresting him. People are allowed to be jerks on their own property. Disorderly conduct in a public space? WEAK. He was in his own house.
Gates was probably looking for a conflict when there didn't even need to be one. This incident is not important at all.
Yelling at an officer WILL get you arrested. That is the definition of disorderly conduct. He was outside... not in his own house.
The arrest report (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF) is an interesting read.
Not weak at all...
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 05:48 PM
2.) The cops screwed up by arresting him. People are allowed to be jerks on their own property. Disorderly conduct in a public space? WEAK. He was in his own house. Actually, no, you are not allowed to be a jerk to the police anywhere. Even on your own property. Gates was probably looking for a conflict when there didn't even need to be one. This incident is not important at all. No, this incident is important because it is a great example of the principal racism problem in America today. From black scholars to the President himself, we live in a society where race baiting is at the forefront of black culture. The reason we are not "post racial" isn't the lingering fringe of white racism (which is real), it is because the black culture is hypersensitive to any perceived racism. Non-racist whites, in turn, are forced to tiptoe around the topic for fear of being so labeled.
But this incident went to about the furthest extreme possible and is so perfectly wrong it is going to serve as the archetypal example of the problem for a long time to come. Trust me on this one: people aren't going to let it go.
[edit] Remember you heard it here first: This will jeopardize Obama's re-election chances.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 05:54 PM
Yelling at an officer WILL get you arrested. That is the definition of disorderly conduct. He was outside... not in his own house. While I am aware he was outside, I think it is important to note that that is irrelevant. Inside or outside, the crime is the same.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 06:02 PM
Reportedly, the officer who accosted Gates in his own home and on his own property refused to identify himself to Gates. It might be nice if our public servants actually followed procedure, even when it does not suit them.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 06:30 PM
Reportedly, the officer who accosted Gates in his own home and on his own property refused to identify himself to Gates. It might be nice if our public servants actually followed procedure, even when it does not suit them. Have a read of the police report. Gates was not interested in his ID, only in berating him. He shouted over the cop when the cop tried to tell him his name - several times.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 06:42 PM
Have a read of the police report. Gates was not interested in his ID, only in berating him. He shouted over the cop when the cop tried to tell him his name - several times.Did Gates have any input to the police report? Are police reports always honest and accurate? I would be VERY ticked off if the cops accosted me in my own home, and I doubt that the resultant police report would reflect well on me. I have a nephew in the state police, a relative who was (now retired) chief of police for the county seat, and a dear friend was (now retired) chief of the Maine warden service, and his son who is currently a warden. I have nothing against law-enforcement officials in general. The fact that a police officer arrested a black scholar in his own home in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge seems lost on you. The fact that the officer is an expert in racial profiling and refused to give his name and badge number to the professor after accosting him in his own home is past ironic.
I read that and it did sound like gates copped an attitude and was beligerant and caused all of the trouble. If he had co-operated with the police, it would have been over in a couple of minutes...no incident.
No sympathy from me on this one.
berkeman
Jul23-09, 06:54 PM
Yelling at an officer WILL get you arrested. That is the definition of disorderly conduct. He was outside... not in his own house.
The arrest report (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF) is an interesting read.
Not weak at all...
Thanks for that. Very helpful. I'm pretty sure President Obama didn't have a chance to read that before making his comment.
berkeman
Jul23-09, 06:55 PM
Are police reports always honest and accurate?
Don't know if they're always honest and accurate, but police can be fired for putting false information in the report, or omitting important information.
I fully understand the police were investigating a call which really does give them the right to investigate
but
For Gods Sake the matter should of ended when he showed his identification without an arrest. Unless the house had no personal property in it whatsoever which is highly doubtful the only common sense investigation to be done is if there is the owner private property (pictures,documents, mailbox(You dont even have to enter the house most of the time). I have never heard of a burglar sending mail in his name to the property he is about to rob or put pictures of his house. Given that it should be pretty obvious who is the property owner based on the methods described coupled with his providing id. Now can someone explain to me how the police didnt botch this by not using common sense despite the professors attitude because you dont have to be a genius to know to use the common sense methods I have described instead of giving the professor the third degree.
berkeman
Jul23-09, 07:34 PM
I fully understand the police were investigating a call which really does give them the right to investigate
but
For Gods Sake the matter should of ended when he showed his identification without an arrest. Unless the house had no personal property in it whatsoever which is highly doubtful the only common sense investigation to be done is if there is the owner private property (pictures,documents, mailbox(You dont even have to enter the house most of the time). I have never heard of a burglar sending mail in his name to the property he is about to rob or put pictures of his house. Given that it should be pretty obvious who is the property owner based on the methods described coupled with his providing id. Now can someone explain to me how the police didnt botch this by not using common sense despite the professors attitude because you dont have to be a genius to know to use the common sense methods I have described instead of giving the professor the third degree.
Did you read the police report?
Office_Shredder
Jul23-09, 07:35 PM
For Gods Sake the matter should of ended when he showed his identification without an arrest. Unless the house had no personal property in it whatsoever which is highly doubtful the only common sense investigation to be done is if there is the owner private property (pictures,documents, mailbox(You dont even have to enter the house most of the time). I have never heard of a burglar sending mail in his name to the property he is about to rob or put pictures of his house. Given that it should be pretty obvious who is the property owner based on the methods described coupled with his providing id. Now can someone explain to me how the police didnt botch this by not using common sense despite the professors attitude because you dont have to be a genius to know to use the common sense methods I have described instead of giving the professor the third degree.
Yes, it should have ended when he showed his ID. He showed a Harvard ID badge, the cop radioed for Harvard police, and tried to leave. It should have ended there, but based on the police report Gates decided to prolong the confrontation
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 08:33 PM
Yes, it should have ended when he showed his ID. He showed a Harvard ID badge, the cop radioed for Harvard police, and tried to leave. It should have ended there, but based on the police report Gates decided to prolong the confrontationAnd why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops?
Have you ever been part of a demographic that is routinely harassed by unprofessional cops? In college, I had long hair and I played music to make money. I was accosted by a senior officer of the Orono police force one bitterly cold winter night, who told me to open my guitar case and show him the contents. (Just another hippie smuggling drugs, I guess.) I told him that if I opened the case without temperature-stabilizing it first, the finish would craze, ruining a guitar worth at least several hundred dollars. He threatened to take me to the station and make me open it there. I told him that he was welcome to do so, but searching me without probable cause wasn't going to look good for him. Yes, in 1970 in Maine, you could get shaken down just for having long hair. I kept my cool, but it was infuriating to have to defend myself from the prejudices of a hick because I didn't look like GI Joe.
Did you read the police report?
Yes and still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply ,once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation. The best part is the caller saying she had seen two black males with backpacks with one trying to wedge in to break in. Not sure who this second man is maybe the driver maybe black maybe wearing a backpack. I also find it hard to believe the police report word by word especially given that the partner doesnt corroborate the partners report it is only 3 paragraphs compared to the 10+ on the other officers narrative but with that being said
still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply, once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation.
Yes and still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply ,once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation. The best part is the caller saying she had seen two black males with backpacks with one trying to wedge in to break in. Not sure who this second man is maybe the driver maybe black maybe wearing a backpack. I also find it hard to believe the police report word by word especially given that the partner doesnt corroborate the partners report it is only 3 paragraphs compared to the 10+ on the other officers narrative but with that being said
still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply, once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation.
Is the tab key on your keyboard malfunctioning?
You seem to have a lot of rage for someone not knowing any facts.
mheslep
Jul23-09, 08:38 PM
The issue per the OP was the President's involvement with this incident. His involvement was wrong at several levels. Stating he did not know the details, the President castigated a local Police Dept, saying the officer 'acted stupidly'. Regardless of what actually happened, making that statement without the facts was wrong #1. Turns out now that the officer per the witnessed report acted appropriately, and Gates acted stupidly - wrong #2. In this country we have the principal of federalism, and absent some federal crime at hand such as evidence of systemic police abuse, he and all other federal officials should stay out of it. Granted Gates was a friend so one would expect to him to say something, but not as he did in that venue - wrong #3. The President coupled a lot of racial baggage into the story, though with his usual aplomb he managed to not really accuse anybody of anything. We don't need any more shoot from the hip racial accusations, especially not from that podium - wrong #4. Finally, from his point of view, he needs all eyes concentrated on his health plan, and this is certainly a distraction, one that's bound to last at least a several days.
And why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops?
Have you ever been part of a demographic that is routinely harassed by unprofessional cops? In college, I had long hair and I played music to make money. I was accosted by a senior officer of the Orono police force one bitterly cold winter night, who told me to open my guitar case and show him the contents. (Just another hippie smuggling drugs, I guess.) I told him that if I opened the case without temperature-stabilizing it first, the finish would craze, ruining a guitar worth at least several hundred dollars. He threatened to take me to the station and make me open it there. I told him that he was welcome to do so, but searching me without probable cause wasn't going to look good for him. Yes, in 1970 in Maine, you could get shaken down just for having long hair. I kept my cool, but it was infuriating to have to defend myself from the prejudices of a hick because I didn't look like GI Joe.
Turbo, you have in poker what we call a 'tell'. It's a sign that gives away someone is bluffing. Your "tell" is using irrelevant stories to try and support your unsubstantiated statements.
Yes, it should have ended when he showed his ID. He showed a Harvard ID badge, the cop radioed for Harvard police, and tried to leave. It should have ended there, but based on the police report Gates decided to prolong the confrontation
As stated in the previous post I read the police report too and there was no mention of physical threat by Gates nor a threat to police property no mention of anything of calling the police racist. Even police in Philly or anywhere can possibly go around arresting every single individual for disorderly conduct for making pig noises its petty and not practical.
Is the tab key on your keyboard malfunctioning?
You seem to have a lot of rage for someone not knowing any facts.
As opposed to your facts. Given you hold so many facts you should go to the Cambridge Police Station and file a testimony in support of Officer Crowley.
The issue per the OP was the President's involvement with this incident. His involvement was wrong at several levels. Stating he did not know the details, the President castigated a local Police Dept, saying the officer 'acted stupidly'. Regardless of what actually happened, making that statement without the facts was wrong #1. Turns out now that the officer per the witnessed report acted appropriately, and Gates acted stupidly - wrong #2. In this country we have the principal of federalism, and absent some federal crime at hand such as evidence of systemic police abuse, he and all other federal officials should stay out of it. Granted Gates was a friend so one would expect to him to say something, but not as he did in that venue - wrong #3. The President coupled a lot of racial baggage into the story, though with his usual aplomb he managed to not really accuse anybody of anything. We don't need any more shoot from the hip racial accusations, especially not from that podium - wrong #4. Finally, from his point of view, he needs all eyes concentrated on his health plan, and this is certainly a distraction, one that's bound to last at least a several days.All very good points. Obama messed this one up. I'm very disappointed. Yes, he's only human and defended his friend without knowing the facts, but not ok considering he's the President and that he made a statement. Wrong.
Back to the incident, Gates went after the cops as they tried to leave to continue his harrassment of them and it was at that point that they did what they rightly should do.
Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.
Regardless of what actually happened, making that statement without the facts was wrong #1. Turns out now that the officer per the witnessed report acted appropriately, and Gates acted stupidly -.
The witnessed report was written by Officer Crowley and Figueroa his partner. Did you believe it would have Crowley report something unfavorable for him?
Ok, Obama changed his mind:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer
Obama stepped back on Thursday, telling ABC News, "From what I can tell, the sergeant who was involved is an outstanding police officer, but my suspicion is probably that it would have been better if cooler heads had prevailed.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html
police report
The witnessed report was written by Officer Crowley and Figueroa his partner. Did you believe it would have Crowley report something unfavorable for him?
If you're going to accuse a police office of professional misconduct, I hope you have something substantial to back your claim. Right now, you're talking too much. Aparantly, its become acceptable around here for everyone to post whatever nonsense they want with nothing to support what they said. This is quite appalling.
mheslep
Jul23-09, 08:58 PM
And why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? 1. That house had a burglary call on it previously and recently, 2. Sounds like SOP to me.
Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. 1. The cop didn't know it was his house, Harvard ID didn't clarify that, 2. He did not initially accost him. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops?I have some sympathy for that point of view, but it is myopic. Look at it also from a cops point of view. They're answering a burglary call, a confused situation, not knowing who's made the call, going through a door not knowing who's on the other side. They are the guys who have to walk through that door, and they can't do it guns blazing.
This doesn't give the police any special privilege to abuse people, but I believe in part because they walk through the door, they take that risk, cops generally won't tolerate much abuse coming in their direction from anybody on the scene. Get a badge and file a complaint later if they're over the line. But you do not mouth off to the cop on the scene no matter who the hell you are, period. Doing so is a ticket to jail or maybe even getting your butt kicked, for anybody.
All very good points. Obama messed this one up. I'm very disappointed. Yes, he's only human and defended his friend without knowing the facts, but not ok considering he's the President and that he made a statement. Wrong.
Back to the incident, Gates went after the cops as they tried to leave to continue his harrassment of them and it was at that point that they did what they rightly should do.
Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.
That's because he's acting like a pompus, arrogant fool.
1. The cop didn't know it was his house, Harvard ID didn't clarify that, =
Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:00 PM
Turbo, you have in poker what we call a 'tell'. It's a sign that gives away someone is bluffing. Your "tell" is using irrelevant stories to try and support your unsubstantiated statements.You know nothing about me, Cy. The accounting is entirely accurate. You know nothing about the power of small-town cops and their prejudices 40 years ago. Growing up in wealth and privilege has insulated you from that. I was carrying a Gibson B25-12 string circa 1962 or so that was crucial to making my living as I was working my way through college. I was told to open that case with no probable cause by a cop who profiled me according to my appearance.
You know nothing about me, Cy. The accounting is entirely accurate. You know nothing about the power of small-town cops and their prejudices 40 years ago. Growing up in wealth and privilege has insulated you from that. I was carrying a Gibson B25-12 string circa 1962 or so that was crucial to making my living as I was working my way through college. I was told to open that case with no probable cause by a cop who profiled me according to my appearance.
Ok, no one's talking about small town cops from 40 years ago, right? You just gave off another tell with a second irrelevant story.
You people are arguing out of ignorance. No one has any facts, yet you all are so *sure* about what you post against eachother.
A police officers account holds up in court. That's a fact. The phone call was made for a crime. That's a fact. The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.
Anything else is you guys speculating.
Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.
I don't think you should make up advice for police officer on how to do their job. They don't tell you how to do physics.
The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.
Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.
I don't think you should make up advice for police officer on how to do their job. They don't tell you how to do physics.
If I was doing a physics problem and had 2+2 = 5, anyone could tell me I was wrong and it should be 4 they dont need to be a physicist . Mail (Bills ) are a common form to check occupation.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:10 PM
Ok, no one's talking about small town cops from 40 years ago, right? You just gave off another tell with a second irrelevant story.
You people are arguing out of ignorance. No one has any facts, yet you all are so *sure* about what you post against eachother.
A police officers account holds up in court. That's a fact. The phone call was made for a crime. That's a fact. The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.
Anything else is you guys speculating.Oh, so you're changing tack once again? The point is that cops are human and they approach their jobs with the prejudices and attitudes that formed them. If you don't think "2 black men are trying to break into a house" is going to get more attention and more aggression than "a couple of white guys are trying to open the door" of a house in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge, you are ignoring a whole lot of context. The cops should have left as soon as the professor ID'd himself, and if they didn't like his protestations, they should have ignored them at a minimum, or identified themselves to the professor with an apology for the mistake in accosting him in his own home.
Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865
Go to 9:52
Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.The police do not have the right to go through his mail at this point and is not what they would do.
Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possible, I think them calling campus security to make a positive ID was th only sensible thing to do. Why would an innocent homeowner put up such a fight? It makes no sense. For all the poilce know, the real homeoner is being murdered in another part of the house.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer
Many cops are speaking out across the country
It could even set back the progress in race relations that helped Obama become the nation's first African-American president, they said.
"What we don't need is public safety officials across the country second-guessing themselves," said David Holway, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, which represents 15,000 public safety officials around the country. "The president's alienated public safety officers across the country with his comments."
Obama's comments could diminish work done by law enforcement to address racial issues, said James Preston, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Florida State Lodge.
"By reducing all contact between law enforcement and the public to the color of their skin or ethnicity is, in fact, counterproductive to improving relationships," Preston said. "To make such an off-handed comment about a subject without benefit of the facts, in such a public forum, hurts police/community relations and is a setback to all of the years of progress."
If I was doing a physics problem and had 2+2 = 5, anyone could tell me I was wrong and it should be 4 they dont need to be a physicist . Mail (Bills ) are a common form to check occupation.
Again, don't tell the police how to do their job.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865
Go to 9:52
Yes I have seen that video before and it also pretty much emphasizes you could be prosecuted despite the fidelity of your statements. This particular section you quote just emphasizes that the police have no obligation to help your case by testifying in your favor even if you are right. This basic just reiterates my point on the police report about it not being the most unbiased document since there is no reason to include anything that might help Gates' case.
mheslep
Jul23-09, 09:21 PM
I'm recalling the recent back flip rationalizations used by Judge Sotomayor to distance herself from the 'wise Latina' comments, and everyone happy to give her the benefit of the doubt: 'slow down, slow down, look at her record.' Then I reread this transcript, see the condemnation of a cop and immediate connection to racism by the President. Now I'm angry.
that the Cambridge Police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home; and number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. That's just a fact.
As you know, Lynn, when I was in the state legislature in Illinois, we worked on a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that blacks and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately. And that is a sign, an example of how, you know, race remains a factor in this society. That doesn't lessen the incredible progress that has been made. I am standing here as testimony to the progress that's been made.
And yet the fact of the matter is, is that this still haunts us.Dam right it does, thanks in no small part to you.
Astronuc
Jul23-09, 09:21 PM
All very good points. Obama messed this one up. I'm very disappointed. Yes, he's only human and defended his friend without knowing the facts, but not ok considering he's the President and that he made a statement. Wrong.
Back to the incident, Gates went after the cops as they tried to leave to continue his harrassment of them and it was at that point that they did what they rightly should do.
Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool. Yes, I agree. Obama should have declined to make a statement, and at most indicated that it was an unfortunate incident.
In the position of 'not knowing the facts', Obama was careless, and even reckless, to claim the officer 'acted stupidly', when it appears that the officer was acting professionally. Obama should apologize to the officer and the police department.
Gates was not arrested for breaking and entering, but for being out in public yelling at a police officer who was apparently just doing his duty.
It was appropriate for the Cambridge officer to involve the Harvard police given Gates's affiliation. May be the Harvard police had jurisdiction (if it was on campus), otherwise, they Harvard police would be in a better position to take Gates's statement concering the Cambridge officer.
I does appear Gates over-reacted, didn't let it go and took it outside.
The police do not have the right to go through his mail at this point and is not what they would do.
Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possiblep I may not be black but a university ID has been good enough for me even against more zealous police.
Again, don't tell the police how to do their job.
Repeating your statement doesnt make it any truer. As Evo provided a more reasonable argument. However a request for mail to be given doesnt over step any legal bounds..
Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possible, I think them calling campus security to make a positive ID was th only sensible thing to do. Why would an innocent homeowner put up such a fight? It makes no sense. For all the poilce know, the real homeoner is being murdered in another part of the house.
Exactly, there could be so many different scenarios. Gates should have identified himself calmly and explain his situation, instead of venting from the start.
If a cop entered my house out of nowhere, I would assume something is going on in the neigborhood, and would cooperate, and answer any questions.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:29 PM
What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.
I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.
You're right. You know how the police should do their jobs. The same way you know enough facts about the case to be outraged. :uhh:
I posted the police report while you have posted unrelated video and repeated the "dont tell the police how to do their job" argument.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:32 PM
Did Gates have any input to the police report? Are police reports always honest and accurate? Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good? :uhh: I would be VERY ticked off if the cops accosted me in my own home, and I doubt that the resultant police report would reflect well on me. I tend to think I am more level-headed than that, but I certainly wouldn't fault someone for being upset in that case (I said so in my post). But by the next day, I would hope you would have calmed down enough to apologize for those actions that didn't "reflect well on" you. Gates didn't do that.
The fact that a police officer arrested a black scholar in his own home in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge seems lost on you. And could you explain precisely why that matters? The fact that the officer is an expert in racial profiling.... Um, I think you misunderstood that one too - he's an expert in avoiding racial profiling. I can't believe that after all the bad press about racial profiling, you'd think cops would actually teach how to do it! :rofl: Please, turbo - use some logical thought!
What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.
I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.
And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:35 PM
And why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops? Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.
Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good? :uhh:
This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:37 PM
Yes and still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply ,once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation. What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.
I would like to ad, a UID is NOT a valid legal form of ID. I have sat through a class by the county liquor board. It's the first thing they tell you. A UID doesn't mean JACK to a police officer.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:37 PM
And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?
This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.
Gates word doesnt mean a thing against that of a police officers in a court of law.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:39 PM
Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.I read the report. Calling the Harvard police was a further imposition on Professor Gates. The Cambridge cops already knew who he was. Certainly, the Harvard cops already knew who he was.
Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?
Sorry they didn't have the gold plated Rolls Royce for him. :uhh:
The problem is your statement "as far as I know", falls short of reality. I look white, and even I don't mouth off to cops.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:41 PM
As stated in the previous post I read the police report too and there was no mention of physical threat by Gates nor a threat to police property no mention of anything of calling the police racist.
Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.
What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.
Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:43 PM
Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address. Wouldn't a driver's license be just as good as asking for the mail....and more in line with standard operating procedure?
Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.
Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?
Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.
oops I meant "other than" in that quote you posted that why I then continued to mention why the police dont go around arresting people for making pig noises because it would be petty and impractical and would only fit under disorderly conduct , too many resources used not worth the paperwork.
Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?
Not sure why I am responding but that was obviously in response to russ watters comment on ID not having the address.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:47 PM
I'm recalling the recent back flip rationalizations used by Judge Sotomayor to distance herself from the 'wise Latina' comments, and everyone happy to give her the benefit of the doubt: 'slow down, slow down, look at her record.' Then I reread this transcript, see the condemnation of a cop and immediate connection to racism by the President. Now I'm angry.
Dam right it does, thanks in no small part to you. I was meaning to bring that up for discussion in that thread about her... strangely that thread died when the confirmation hearings began. She looked really bad in them. Yeah, this is more of what Obama is all about. The reason I said this would affect him in 3 years is that in his last election, he was successfuly able to argue that he didn't buy into Pastor's beliefs by flip-flopping on his longtime friend and mentor and rejecting him. Far fetched to say the least, but it worked. Here, he has no such out: this time, it is his own words that will be on the Republican commercials.
Wouldn't a driver's license be just as good as asking for the mail....and more in line with standard operating procedure?
Another option as well ,but putting little things together that dont invlve more queries would help speed things along and aid in moving on to the next call.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:51 PM
What is wrong with police acting as adults This cop acted perfectly professionally. ...backing down when there is no apparent threat... He did! ....and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? Sorry, but being an arrogant *** makes Gates unworthy of an apology. If Gates had acted like an adult, he would have been treated like one. Instead, he was treated with a level of respect somewhat lower, but still far greater than he deserved.
I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call. There is nothign in that report that implies escalation by the cop. The cop's first response was bewilderment at Gate's irate reaction. He did all he could to defuse the situation.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:53 PM
This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between. I am more likely to believe the person who was rational during the incident.
Odds are, we'll get some more evidence on this anyway, as the officer was talking on the radio and there were a bunch of witnesses. We'll see - but try to be logical about where you place your bet.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:55 PM
I read the report. Calling the Harvard police was a further imposition on Professor Gates. The Cambridge cops already knew who he was. The Cambridge cops did not know that it was his house because he did not (until later) provide an ID with an address. Certainly, the Harvard cops already knew who he was. Exactly - that's why it was to Gates benefit to call them!
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 09:57 PM
This cop acted perfectly professionally. He did! Sorry, but being an arrogant *** makes Gates unworthy of an apology. If Gates had acted like an adult, he would have been treated like one. Instead, he was treated with a level of respect somewhat lower, but still far greater than he deserved.
There is nothign in that report that implies escalation by the cop. The cop's first response was bewilderment at Gate's irate reaction. He did all he could to defuse the situation.If you take all the cop's reports at face-value and totally discount Gate's account, you could conceivably come to this conclusion. I'm not so gullible. I have been treated like a second-class citizen and been shaken down by cops before based solely on my appearance. If you think that the cop's description of the incident is 100% accurate and 100% favorable to him, you might need a reality check. Police-work can be touchy, and cops have been known to pad their reports to protect themselves from legal action. Or maybe you didn't know that...
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 09:58 PM
Another option as well ,but putting little things together that dont invlve more queries would help speed things along and aid in moving on to the next call. What? What do you mean "more queries"? How is asking for a driver's license "more queries" than asking to see his mail? Each is one! And keep in mind, the only reason the officer needed a second form of ID is that Gates provided an insufficient one in the first query.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 10:01 PM
If you take all the cop's reports at face-value and totally discount Gate's account, you could conceivably come to this conclusion. I'm not so gullible.... Personally, I think someone who takes at face value the word of someone who they acknowledge acted improperly is being gullible. But that's just me. Put another way, the only reason (besides your clear, strong personal bias) that you don't believe the cop is the word of someone who you acknowledge acted improperly.
...oh, and while we're at it: where can I read Gates' full report on the incident? By reading his full account, we can see if it is self-consistent and see exactly how it differs from the officer's.
turbo-1
Jul23-09, 10:02 PM
BTW, when I was shaken-down by the Orono cop in 1970, I had a driver's license, a UMO ID, a campus meal-program card, and other stuff that was pretty solid evidence that I was a student (engineering track at the time) and still that jerk was intent on shaking me down with NO evidence or probable cause.
I hadn't done anything wrong or suspicious, but I was guilty of having long hair late at night with a suspicious guitar case in my hand while I was freezing my fri**ing butt off trying to get home.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 10:09 PM
...oh, and while we're at it: where can I read Gates' full report on the incident? By reading his full account, we can see if it is self-consistent and see exactly how it differs from the officer's. ....Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!
Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
BTW, when I was shaken-down by the Orono cop in 1970, I had a driver's license, a UMO ID, a campus meal-program card, and other stuff that was pretty solid evidence that I was a student (engineering track at the time) and still that jerk was intent on shaking me down with NO evidence or probable cause.
I hadn't done anything wrong or suspicious, but I was guilty of having long hair late at night with a suspicious guitar case in my hand while I was freezing my fri**ing butt off trying to get home.
Relevant, why?
Side: Back in summer of 69' my friends were cruizin in the old el camino when we saw this guy on the side of the road. We offered him a ride and then bla bla bla bla bla ..........good god turbo. These meaningless stories never end. The next one will be about how you made a living singing in your local bar.
Gates isnt some long haired hippie with a guitar case living in a small country town. Those were not small country side cops. He doesn't live in a ghetto.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul23-09, 10:14 PM
Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.
The second officer's report is what is called a 'supplemental report'. He was not the officer in charge of the situation and so his report required nothing more than for him to discribe what he personally observed of the incident. The contents of his report then is apparently all he personally observed.
Also, writing falsing information in a police or witness report is not only agianst department rules it is against the law and you can go to jail for it. If the police report is at all accurate then there are several witnesses to what occured outside of the residence (which is what he was arrested for) and any falsification could easily be found out and the officer would lose his job at a minimum.
I've personally been on both sides of this sort of situation. I've dealt with jerk cops that want to give you a hard time and find reasons to get you in trouble and I have been the guy getting yelled at and called a racist for nothing more than doing my job.
Just a few weeks ago I found an apartment door busted in and a man inside the apartment. This intoxicated parolee I found inside someone elses apartment with a busted in door was nicer, more polite, and had more sense than a Harvard Professor in his own home apparently.
Wether or not the man really should have been arrested is a hard call for not having been there. From what I have read I would mostly side with the officer.
....Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!
Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Russ, just give them warnings to post using facts and sources. It will save you and me a lot of headache dealing with them.
russ_watters
Jul23-09, 10:20 PM
So I was wrong, we do have at least a little to go on from Gates: Here's a statement by Gate's lawyer and an interview Gates did: http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks
Now the thing that stands out the most of about Gate's account is that it is much thinner than the officer's. It doesn't specifically disagree with what the officer said because much of what is in the police report could simply fit in the holes in Gates' account. But both Gates' and the lawyers' accounts reads like a sanitized version of what he seems to understand was a moment of anger for him. In particular, the lawyer's account makes it sound like they were having a near-friendly chat at the end of the encounter, and then he was suddenly arrested! Obviously, that can be explored by talking to the witnesses. I'm wondering if there is any recourse against Gates if it can be proven he is making false statements about the incident.
One key difference is that the officer says he was present when the phone call to Harvard was made. Gates implies he made the call before the officer arrived. That should be easy to verify, but in any case, it isn't that important.
....Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!
Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Interestingly, why does CNN title this "The 'unfathomable' arrest of a black scholar"
Interestingly, why does CNN title this "The 'unfathomable' arrest of a black scholar"
Are you kidding me? CNN is a joke. They care more about playing with their touchscreen montiors than getting the news right.
Are you kidding me? CNN is a joke. They care more about playing with their touchscreen montiors than getting the news right.
yea and 3D holograms
yea and 3D holograms
Do they have holograms now too? Every time I watch CNN, I'm like "stop playing with the damn touch screens and just report the news!"
It's to the point where they just show off their glitzy and glamorous flat screens, and report highly speculative stories. It's a step above tabloids.
The CNN holoroom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thOxW19vsTg
It's to the point where they just show off their glitzy and glamorous flat screens, and report highly speculative stories. It's a step above tabloids.
agreed
Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?He left his house and came after the police. Do you see how ridiculous he was? Not to mention that what he did was reason to arrest him. He was harrassing the police. Seriously turbo, read the report and stop making stuff up.
One key difference is that the officer says he was present when the phone call to Harvard was made. Gates implies he made the call before the officer arrived. That should be easy to verify, but in any case, it isn't that important.17 Ware St is likely typically serviced by Harvard would explain why Gates is used to calling Harvard Police and dealing with Harvard Police.
Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse
Russ, just give them warnings to post using facts and sources. It will save you and me a lot of headache dealing with them.
theres a huge difference between your posts and his.
Russ_watters - An argument with relevant links and an opinion based on his experiences and logic with at worst a possible jab here and there
Your posts are the same minus the relevant links or an argument .
Just shallow jabs and Bare assertion arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy
Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse
Depends on where you live as far as I know. In NYC it's required: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/nmshldanalysis4pg.pdf
It's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be required for a police officer to present his/her badge.
It also makes it easier for people to impersonate an officer if dont need to identify oneself.
Hans de Vries
Jul24-09, 12:11 PM
Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.
I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive.....
The cop that arrested Gates is supposedly an expert in racial profiling.
Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor. :smile:
I think one should consider the stress on a police officer having to enter (on his own)
a place where a suspected burglary is going on by possible armed robbers. Risking his
live to prevent the robbery of the tv-set and the stereo set....
You might call this brave but in many countries police corps don't require, and won't
even allow, a police officer on his own to take such risks, and would not take action
without considerable reinforcement on the scene.
Regards, Hans
turbo-1
Jul24-09, 12:29 PM
He left his house and came after the police. Do you see how ridiculous he was? Not to mention that what he did was reason to arrest him. He was harrassing the police. Seriously turbo, read the report and stop making stuff up.I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him in to take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.
Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer.
Astronuc
Jul24-09, 01:00 PM
I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him in to take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.
Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer. If Gates had simply followed the officer outside, and 'quietly' talked to the officer, there would have been no arrest.
Gates was arrested for yelling at the police officer out in public (disorderly conduct). If stood on the side of the road ranting and raving in public, I'd be arrested too, even if I ran inside my house. One's home is not an automatic sanctuary, if one flees for the scene of one's crime.
It appears Gates automatically assumes the 'white' cop is harrassing him because he (Gates) is African-American. All Gates had to do was provide proof of who he was in a quiet and calm manner, and not go ballistic on the officer. The officer was doing his job (responding to a reported break-in) according to procedures. The officer is not responsible for the fact that the witness apparently reported 'two black males with backpacks'.
And in any event, the OP is about Obama's comments, which were unfortunate, given that Obama didn't know the facts/details. Obama was wrong, and he should apologize to Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department.
Meanwhile - Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_office
turbo-1
Jul24-09, 01:47 PM
I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too. IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking. After all, how many burglars are 58-59 years old and plying their trade in broad daylight in a nice neighborhood? Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor. The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO. I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers, but the offense should be tempered by the context. He had returned from a trip abroad and was sick (and probably tired), and was unable to get into his house. Then he gets rousted by some Cambridge cops for trying to get into his own house.
I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances. He was just trying to get into his own house, after all. I have quite a number of close friends and relatives who are in law enforcement. Given the very rural nature of this state and the paucity of back-up, the troopers, wardens, and sheriffs here are pretty darned diplomatic on the whole.
Here's an example: My friend and musical partner called one Sunday morning to tell me that he had been picked up for operating under the influence and that he would be losing his licence, which would put a stop to our ability to perform as a duo all over the state. He was pretty distraught, so I drove up to his place to keep him company for a bit, and the arresting officer (a state trooper) stopped in at his apartment to see how he was doing. The trooper lived in town, and wanted to make sure that Tim was OK. The trooper retired from the state police and ran for county sheriff. One of the best sheriffs we have ever had. These officers work alone - they are tough as they need to be, and as reasonable and diplomatic as they need to be.
mheslep
Jul24-09, 02:02 PM
... Here, he has no such out: this time, it is his own words that will be on the Republican commercials.I'd be inclined to agree but Obama has some of the same 'teflon' qualities that Reagan had.
I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too.Stop making things up. He wasn't accosted. They went up to his front door and asked him for an ID because there had been a report of a break in. Where on earth do you get "being accosted" out of that? He was the one that verbally accosted the police. Anyone with any amount of common sense would have simply given proper ID to the police, realizing that they are doing this to protect him in the event someone had indeed broken into his house. They would have to ask any person for their ID in this circumstance.
I feel Obama should make an apology for making a stupid inflammatory remark. I think that before this is all over, Obama will have to, he was out of line. What happened to "I can't comment since I don't know what happened"?
Count Iblis
Jul24-09, 03:15 PM
What happened to "I can't comment since I don't know what happened"?
It would make him look like a fool when he discusses the harsh treatment of rioting Uighurs by the Chinese authorities.
berkeman
Jul24-09, 03:21 PM
It would make him look like a fool when he discusses the harsh treatment of rioting Uighurs by the Chinese authorities.
Perhaps a better way to say it is:
"I can't comment since I don't know what happened yet"
Would that change your argument, Count?
EDIT -- The president should have held off commenting officially until he read the police report, IMO.
turbo-1
Jul24-09, 03:27 PM
Stop making things up. He wasn't accosted.No dictionary?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accosted
jimmysnyder
Jul24-09, 03:29 PM
Apparently Obama just apologized. I wish to apologize myself. If anyone is offended by anything I said, it was certainly not my intention.
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 03:38 PM
The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137
berkeman
Jul24-09, 03:41 PM
I wish to apologize myself. If anyone is offended by anything I said, it was certainly not my intention.
:rofl: (but you didn't post in this long thread....)
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 03:55 PM
You used the word "accosted" correctly, turbo but that doesn't make your characterization reasonable: IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking. Maybe he would have, had Gates been calm enough for him to get a word in! Gates was so off the handle, the offer needed to take the situation outside just so he could talk on the radio and be heard! Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor. I doubt he was embarassed because he had nothing to be embarassed for. It's a real stretch to call it a "dress down" - it was more of a berating. Your characterization implies a tone that isn't what actually happened. The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO. Immature? That's a very odd word choice. But I guess it is explained by this: I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers... So really, the issue here is you are still choosing not to believe the officer's account. Turbo: be reasonable. This isn't an argument where weaseling for the sake of being argumentative is going to work. More evidence is going to come out, likely including audio tapes of Gates' ranting. I cannot believe that you are so biased that you actually don't believe Gates was being abusive. Either way, please put some thought into this: you're going to put your foot in your mouth here by weaseling around the facts of what happened. Say it with me: Gates was abusive toward the cop.
I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances. Basing that also on your assumption that Gates didn't verbally abuse the cop, I assume? The only thing Obama was right about was that cooler heads should have prevailed: but the only hot head in the incidnet was Gates, so unless he modifies his statement to say that the officer acted stupidly, but Gates acted moronic, there is no way to weasel out of this one.
mheslep
Jul24-09, 03:55 PM
No dictionary?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accosted
Which the cop did not do (per the uncontested report) until it got to the point of warning Gates he was being disorderly far down the chain of events. Walking up to a obviously jimmied front door in uniform and requesting an ID or that the occupant step out to the front porch does not meet the definition of 'accosted' in any dictionary. Gates accosted the cop almost immediately.
The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137That is excellent.
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 04:02 PM
I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive... During the incident, yes, just overly paranoid and overly sensitive, plus frustrated. But after a night's sleep, he should have realized how wrongly he acted. His actions after the incident show him to be a pompus, arrogant fool.
And in the words of that ireporter I linked: a race pimp. Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor. :smile: Exactly. The problem of racial profiling is a real one, but it seems that for many affluent blacks, the pendulum has swung the opposite direction. That's the discussion in the iReport I linked.
Count Iblis
Jul24-09, 04:04 PM
Perhaps a better way to say it is:
Would that change your argument, Count?
EDIT -- The president should have held off commenting officially until he read the police report, IMO.
Look, the whole world is watching here, not just the US public. Unless the Prof. had been violent toward the police (and I mean really violent, not the way Russ defines it), there were no grounds to arrest him in any system that is based on freedom and democracy.
Obama was assuming that whatever he did know about the incident constrained what happened to within those limits in which an arrest was not justified. In general, you never know all the exact details. But if the president wants to be able to, say, criticize Iran for arresting a US citizen on frivolous grounds, then he better make sure he can be trusted to have the same kind of judgement in other cases too, whether or not that is politically convenient for the president.
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 04:05 PM
I'm not making stuff up.... Yeah, you really are, turbo: .....Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him in to take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home. [emphasis added] Gates didn't get upset after being handcuffed, he got upset immediately upon being challenged by the cop. Your characterization of the incident amounts to an intentional obfuscation.
And your misunderstanding of what it meant that the cop was a racial profiling instructor was a classic demonstration of jumping to a rediculous conclusion without putting even a little bit of thought into the issue. It's the stuff conspiracy theory is made of.
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 05:01 PM
I think there is something we need to clarify about your position here, turbo:
1. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make racially charged statements toward the officer before showing his driver's license?
2. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make a "your mamma" insult when the officer asked him to come outside?
In other words, are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that the officer's report was essentially a complete fabrication? You are certainly implying it, and I'd like to clarify specifically if that's what you believe and/or are assuming.
russ_watters
Jul24-09, 05:11 PM
Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist. At this point, we can't know if she is or isn't, but the fact of the matter is that nothing in what we know of what she said/did implies racial intent. Yes, she was wrong about it being a burglary, but despite that, from what we know, she acted perfectly correctly. Furthermore, the backlash against her is going to make people less safe. We already have a problem in this country where people fail to report crimes. What comes of this is that it isn't possible for a white person to report a possible crime by a black person without there being a racist backlash.
I've also let go Gates' outburst as being an understandable result of his frustration and long travel. I'd like to at least clarify if not fully reverse that: even if based on frustration, it is understandable, but it is still completely wrong. I'll go further to say that I used to lock myself out of my car a lot and I've broken into my own house before and I fully understand the level of frustration involved. But I know for certain I would not have reacted the way Gates did. If a cop had challenged me while I was climbing the support post of my 2nd floor deck to get into an unlocked door, I'd have been in a real pickle, because I would have had no way to prove it was my house (my wallet was inside). But I know I would have understood and accepted exactly the situation I was in and I would have acted appropriately. How do I know this? I know it because I'm not a 12 year old and like every other adult, I've dealt with authority figures many times throughout my life. Like every other non-child, I'm responsible and level-headed enough to deal with tough situations gracefully. Gates is a middle-aged child.
jimmysnyder
Jul24-09, 05:23 PM
Gates is a middle-aged child.
He is not the first black man to be called a child. I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.
turbo-1
Jul24-09, 05:25 PM
I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.
On the other hand you have a sergeant in the Cambridge police force who has a good record and is an expert in racial profiling.
You seem willing to discount the story of a pretty distinguished scholar, in favor of the cop. Let's see how it plays out. I suspect that if anything is released, it will only be radio traffic after Gates was pretty perturbed, and we will only have the participants' claims of how the situation played out before that.
As I have made clear, I don't care if Gates was tired and upset and flew off the handle. As soon as he identified himself to the officer, that should have been the end of the incident. It was not.
In situations like this the police hold the upper hand, and they should use discretion in applying it. If this had been an older white man with a cane in his own house, with Gates' position and credentials, would he have been arrested even if he was really mad about being suspected of a crime? I doubt it.
berkeman
Jul24-09, 05:25 PM
I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.
Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.
turbo-1
Jul24-09, 05:27 PM
Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist.Not by Gates. He wasn't aware of her identity at the time, but he publicly thanked her on Gail King's Sirius radio show. He said that he had a valuable collection of books and art in his home and he was grateful that if someone suspected a break-in, they would alert the cops.
Astronuc
Jul24-09, 05:32 PM
The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137That is excellent. For the most part, I agree that the commentary is excellent - except for the part where the neighbor is criticized for racial profiling. There is no evidence to suggest that. There is however a statment about two guys forcing entry into a house. Yes, they are reported as black because visually they are. If they had been white, then report would probably have been about two white guys forcing a door.
If the two guys had entered with a key - I'd bet there would have been no call - no incident.
Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
I am pleased to hear that Obama called Crowley, and I hope he apologized.
Obama did make a statement about his previous statement and that he probably should have 'calibrated' his words differently. I hope he remembers that in future.
Count Iblis
Jul24-09, 05:42 PM
Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to persue by the police and/or DA themselves.
I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.
Office_Shredder
Jul24-09, 05:48 PM
Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to persue by the police and/or DA themselves.
I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.
What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?
The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense
Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to persue by the police and/or DA themselves.
I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.I believe they dropped the charges because it not's worth pursuing. Gates more or less appears to have given the officer little choice. He was completely out of order by that time.
Count Iblis
Jul24-09, 06:18 PM
What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?
The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense
Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.
New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.
jimmysnyder
Jul24-09, 06:38 PM
Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.
This is what I read:
Gates' Lawyer's statement. (http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr)
berkeman
Jul24-09, 06:49 PM
This is what I read:
Gates' Lawyer's statement. (http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr)
Wow, no kidding one of them is lying! Let's see, LEOs can lose their job if they are caught lying on a report. What can scholars and their lawyers lose...?
Hopefully the statement about how it happened on the porch will be the thing that exposes whoever is lying. Lots of people (not just LEOs) apparently saw what happened outside, and the two accounts differ significantly.
chemisttree
Jul24-09, 07:56 PM
While I am aware he was outside, I think it is important to note that that is irrelevant. Inside or outside, the crime is the same.
I'm no lawyer but it appears that it is important. (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html)
Massachusetts bars disorderly conduct through Section 53 of Chapter 272 of its general laws, the chapter devoted to crimes against chastity, morality, decency and good order. Specifically, it states that:
"Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."
With charges as nebulous as disorderly conduct, over time, courts refine what it means to violate the law. Certainly, there are many ways one can violate disorderly conduct restrictions. However, one requirement that Massachusetts courts have recognized is that the behavior must in some way be public.
Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.
I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.
Obviously the attorney's statement will be phrased in such a way that it doesn't imply any wrongdoing on the part of his client. The cop writing a police report is also unlikely to include anything that could later be used to incriminate him. Cops can get in trouble for lying in a police report, but proving they intentionally lied is another story. They don't call it the Blue Wall of Silence for nothing. You'd be surprised at how often people slip and fall in the presence of police.
Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.
I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.How nice for Crowley, two people that have said horrible, unfounded things about him. Obama should have invited Crowley alone to apologize to him. This is assinine. I'm really beginning to wonder where Obama's head is, unless he and Gates are both planning to publicly apologize to Crowley.
berkeman
Jul24-09, 11:21 PM
I was thinking similarly. Is there some rule that says that a president can't say "Oops, I messed up on that one. Should have waited for the police report before commenting." I don't get that part. I think I get the other parts.
This is a fairly easy read from the incident report (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF)
Thin-skinned college professor (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml), Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research at Harvard University, who believes his own lectures after years surrounded by yes-men (students), lashes out at police.
Crowley's Report: Gates was telling the person on the other end of the call that he was dealing with a racist police officer in his home.
"This is what happens to black men in America!," Gates Shouting, per Crowley's report.
After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.
Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.
Does anyone believe this excuse?
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 12:00 AM
I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.
There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.
Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to persue by the police and/or DA themselves.
I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.
Such minor charges are regularly dismissed. Usually the person is arrested because the officer was given no choice or because the officer knew that the person would be released and just wanted to teach them a lesson. Happens to teenagers all the time.
Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.
New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.
BS. Every city I have ever worked in has had laws against disturbing the peace. If you stand in your yard yelling and screaming and refuse to stop at the direction of a police officer you will be arrested.
Here 'disturbing the peace' is close to this 'public misconduct' and probably used more often.
I'm no lawyer but it appears that it is important. (http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html)
The article there assumes that Gates was arrested for what happened inside the house. From everything I read he was not arrested until after he exited the house and carried on with his yelling in public view.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 12:06 AM
After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.
Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.
Does anyone believe this excuse?
Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.
But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.
Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.
Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We will do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.
But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.
Are you a police officer?
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 01:11 AM
Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.
Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye aswell when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.
Are you a police officer?
No. Just a security guard.
If you're wondering about my knowledge of this sort of thing standard report writing is a mandatory part of training. When I worked at Brooks College the chief of our department was a retired cop who liked to hold us to a similar standard to the police and my training supervisor was a retired cop. I haven't been held to that same standard for a few years now but i still remember most of the basics.
Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye aswell when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.
It doesn't have to be concious. Just an action that takes him out of a position of weakness.
The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 01:58 AM
The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?
Gates is only ten years older than Obama. I think that they were just peers, not necessarily a student professor relationship.
I really don't get why people make such a big deal about the people that Obama associates with and their views on race. I personally have known and grown up with racists and I doubt any politician anywhere could claim that they have never associated with any racists.
Wow, no kidding one of them is lying!
Not necessarily -- the two stories can fit together without requiring anyone to lie. (Or... are you considering omitting relevant information a kind of lying? In that case, yes, someone is definitely lying)
For example, that Gates thinks the officer never gave his name could very well be true if Gates only heard "Cambridge Police" after he first asked who the officer was, and after the second request, cut the officer off with a rant. (Crowley even claims he only began to give his name before Gates continued shouting)
turbo-1
Jul25-09, 05:35 AM
Nowhere in Crowley's report does he claim that he properly identified himself to Gates as requested. It does not matter that he might have said his name - that holds no more water than if Gates had verbally identified himself without providing documentation. Crowley was required under Massachusetts state law to show Gates proper identification upon request. He did not do so, which is perhaps the only law that was broken during this entire encounter.
We confer a great deal of authority on the people that uphold our laws. In return, we expect them to act in a responsible manner and not abuse their authority to punish citizens that cross them. Gates was arrested, taken into custody and driven away in front of his neighbors, put through the booking procedure and held for 4 hours, after which he had to call a friend to come pick him up and drive him home. His offense appears to have been asking Crowley to identify himself.
http://ednews.org/articles/do-police-officers-have-to-identify-themselves.html
Hans de Vries
Jul25-09, 06:27 AM
There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.
This is exactly my feeling about what happened and I could sympathize with Crowley for
just wanting to teach Gates a simple lesson, after all Crowley placed himself in a dangerous
situations in order to protect Gates' property from burglars. (Something which Gates
missed entirely)
Crowley most likely didn't realize that the simple "lesson" would turn into a devastating
public humiliation for somebody who has worked his whole live for the dignity and respect
of black people.
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml
Now he saw himself displayed as "yet another of them black criminals" for the
whole nation in handcuffs complete with mugshots. I do very much sympathize with
Obama for not being happy with this.
Nevertheless. I think something good can come out of this if they all "have a beer"
together in the white house. They are all people of good intentions who are, as we
all are, just human beings. Things happen but there is always second chance.
Regards, Hans
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 11:25 AM
BS. Every city I have ever worked in has had laws against disturbing the peace. If you stand in your yard yelling and screaming and refuse to stop at the direction of a police officer you will be arrested.
Here 'disturbing the peace' is close to this 'public misconduct' and probably used more often.
According to the law Prof. this was not applicable in the Gates case because of the way the Massachusetts Supreme Court has constrained the requirements the "disorderly conduct" charge.
There are obvious reasons for Crowley to take it outside. Gates is raving and making accusations, going outside might encourage Gates to stop raving. Also, inside there are no witnesses. If Crowley is not breaking any rules, it is in his best interest to be in plain view of witnesses. Who knows what kind of things Gates would have made up if there were no witnesses. Crowley would not want to take it outside if he was doing anything wrong. The fact that he did indicates to me that he was doing nothing wrong.
arildno
Jul25-09, 12:18 PM
Back in 2007, we had an incident here in Norway, dubbed the "Ali Farah case":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Farah_case
It was a grave case concerning an ambulance crew that refused to take a Somali man with them after he'd gotten a head wound by a Ghanese in the Sofienberg park.
Based on the fact that Ali Farah subsequently were shown to have far worse injuries than the paramedics had thought, there was a huge outcry against racism in the paramedics.
This was actively fuelled by Ali Farah himself, and his girlfriend (daughter of a prominent Norwegian journalist), who lied through their teeth that the paramedics had left Ali lying on the ground.
Fortunately, a photograph turned up that clearly vindicated the paramedics' version, namely that he was fully able to walk when they left him.
They also had accurately judged him to be "high" after smoking cannabis, something blood tests had shown long ago, but brushed aside by the "Racist!"-screaming crowd before the damning photograph turned up.
His offense appears to have been asking Crowley to identify himself.
:confused: I thought his offense appeared to be disorderly conduct. Or maybe being a black man in America, if you believe that version of the story.
Now he saw himself displayed as "yet another of them black criminals" for the
whole nation in handcuffs complete with mugshots.
Whose fault is that? I mean that in all seriousness -- I highly doubt it was the Cambridge police department who decided to turn this into a national event.
For what it's worth:
http://wbztv.com/local/Henry.Louis.Gates.2.1096348.html
A neighbor who claims he witnessed the incident told the Boston Herald Wednesday that Gates was screaming at police.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/23/birth_of_a_flashpoint_gatess_neighbor_captured_the _moment/
Carter said Gates was “agitated’’ as police led him off to face a charge of disorderly conduct.
http://wbztv.com/local/Henry.Louis.Gates.2.1094433.html
his attorney, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree
...
"Professor Gates asked why are you doing this – because I'm an African-American and you're a police officer? Please give me your information," Ogletree said.
I'm sufficiently convinced that Gates was accusing the officer of racism during the incident. That Gates did lose his temper during the event also seems more plausible than the alternative. (but I am mildly skeptical of the first quote)
arildno
Jul25-09, 12:51 PM
It is quite evident that the only bigot and racist in this case is..Henry Louis Gates himself.
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 12:59 PM
If you can't verbally engage a police officer (regardless whether the point you are making is rightly or wrong) you don't have freedom of speech in the US.
If you can't verbally engage a police officer (regardless whether the point you are making is rightly or wrong) you don't have freedom of speech in the US.
The first amendment gives you the right to say whatever you want. It doesn't give you the right to yell it in my face.
I'm surprised Gates wasn't charged for the criminal offense of interfering with a police officer and/or obstruction of justice. There is no doubt that he was interfering with the officer doing his job.
If you can't verbally engage a police officer (regardless whether the point you are making is rightly or wrong) you don't have freedom of speech in the US.
False dilemma.
You are acting as if freedom of speech is an absolute. It is not and never has been an absolute right. You do not have the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre. More to the point, you do not have the right to call people names (the fighting words doctrine), and you do not have the right to express your freedom of speech in a way that a reasonable person would find highly objectionable given the time and circumstances (disturbing the peace / disorderly conduct).
arildno
Jul25-09, 01:35 PM
And:
Precisely because police officers are law ENFORCEMENT agents, they cannot effectively be that without having added protection by the law, when they are exercising their function.
Without a prima facie deference towards officers of law, law enforcement as such is undermined.
Complaints are to be made&handled in the aftermath, not in the critical situation where the officer has the duty to make difficult decisions on the spot.
Misjudgments by police officers are far more likely to happen if we are licensed to stress them by yelling insults, resisting arrest and so on, than if we are compliant then and there.
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 02:01 PM
False dilemma.
You are acting as if freedom of speech is an absolute. It is not and never has been an absolute right. You do not have the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre. More to the point, you do not have the right to call people names (the fighting words doctrine), and you do not have the right to express your freedom of speech in a way that a reasonable person would find highly objectionable given the time and circumstances (disturbing the peace / disorderly conduct).
The very reason why most Western constitutions explicitely mention that we have "Freedom of Speech" is precisely to prevent people from being arrested for insults or other types of highly objectionable statements. In the US you have even less restriction than in Europe. E.g. deeply insulting Nazi propaganda is legal in the US.
Disorderly conduct should refer to events in which people are disturbed by someone making loud noises or something of that sort. You can imagine te police being called when a drunken man on the streets starts to sing loudly on 3 am at night. It is understandable that the law on disorderly conduct would always be formulated a bit vaguely as the description of a drunk person singing loudly on the street could be very similar to, say, someone who is a bit drunk and singing at a party, in which case there is no problem at all.
There is an implicit understanding here that the police will not just use the letter of the law to get extra powers, especially not if it is only the police officer who is involved in a verbal dispute with someone. The police should always be part of the solution, and never become part of the problem.
The very reason why most Western constitutions explicitely mention that we have "Freedom of Speech" is precisely to prevent people from being arrested for insults or other types of highly objectionable statements. In the US you have even less restriction than in Europe. E.g. deeply insulting Nazi propaganda is legal in the US.
Disorderly conduct should refer to events in which people are disturbed by someone making loud noises or something of that sort. You can imagine te police being called when a drunken man on the streets starts to sing loudly on 3 am at night. It is understandable that the law on disorderly conduct would always be formulated a bit vaguely as the description of a drunk person singing loudly on the street could be very similar to, say, someone who is a bit drunk and singing at a party, in which case there is no problem at all.
There is an implicit understanding here that the police will not just use the letter of the law to get extra powers, especially not if it is only the police officer who is involved in a verbal dispute with someone. The police should always be part of the solution, and never become part of the problem.
................what?
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 02:09 PM
Misjudgments by police officers are far more likely to happen if we are licensed to stress them by yelling insults, resisting arrest and so on, than if we are compliant then and there.
Police officers are there to deal with the few percent of society who are criminals, or who have psychatric disorders like psychosis who cause problems, people who drink too much, people who use drugs and as a reult of that cause problems, etc. etc.
If a police officer cannot handle Prof. Gates raising his voice a bit, then I wouldn't have much faith in that police officer being able to deal with, say, a person who has a sudden episode of psychosis on the street.
If a police officer cannot handle Prof. Gates raising his voice a bit,
Looks to me like he handled it quite well -- possibly even being too lenient -- he kept his cool, made several attempts to calm Gates down, attempted to remove himself from the confrontation, calmly arrested Gates after Gates pursued him outside to continue yelling at him, and took steps to ensure Gates' comfort and the security of his property.
arildno
Jul25-09, 03:08 PM
Police officers are there to deal with the few percent of society who are criminals, or who have psychatric disorders like psychosis who cause problems, people who drink too much, people who use drugs and as a reult of that cause problems, etc. etc.
If a police officer cannot handle Prof. Gates raising his voice a bit, then I wouldn't have much faith in that police officer being able to deal with, say, a person who has a sudden episode of psychosis on the street.
Fantasy cops to your liking don't exist, Count Iblis.
Precisely because they are just the figments of your imagination, I have even less faith in them than in real cops.
Even though that means I will do my best to my tongue and act with deference towards an officer of law, even if I think I am being unjustly treated.
(I will then have all the more credibility when suing him to hell later on. :smile:)
Hrm. First, Sgt. Crowley was a racist cop lying through his teeth in a police report, then he's punishing Gates for the crime of asking for identification, and now he's being accused of impinging Gates' right to free speech! It's almost as if people are desparate to avoid contemplating the possibility that maybe, just maybe, a black man tried to get revenge against a white cop by falsely playing the race card.
(Or, at least, made an honest mistake in hastily jumping to the assumption that racism was involved, and is too prideful to back down)
ThomasT
Jul25-09, 07:16 PM
As in any country in the world, the making, administration, and enforcement of laws is done by ordinary people. Stressful situations sometimes bring out the best in us, and sometimes the worst, but usually it's somewhere between.
My two cents on this is that both men could have handled the situation a bit better. Gates lost it. Not good, but after identifying Gates as the homeowner, the officer should have just left -- whether Gates was yelling at him or not. End of incident.
My guess is that the officer, like Gates, just couldn't let it go.
There is a race/ethnic problem among human beings. We are, naturally, inclusionary/exclusionary. It's the way we're built. We're animals after all.
And, yes Obama is fueling the controversy, which might turn out to be a good thing. At least it's better than being bombarded with Michael Jackson stories.
arildno
Jul25-09, 07:33 PM
the officer should have just left -- whether Gates was yelling at him or not. End of incident
Absolutely not.
As in any country in the world, the making, administration, and enforcement of laws is done by ordinary people. Stressful situations sometimes bring out the best in us, and sometimes the worst, but usually it's somewhere between.
My two cents on this is that both men could have handled the situation a bit better. Gates lost it. Not good, but after identifying Gates as the homeowner, the officer should have just left -- whether Gates was yelling at him or not. End of incident.
My guess is that the officer, like Gates, just couldn't let it go.
There is a race/ethnic problem among human beings. We are, naturally, inclusionary/exclusionary. It's the way we're built. We're animals after all.
And, yes Obama is fueling the controversy, which might turn out to be a good thing. At least it's better than being bombarded with Michael Jackson stories.
That's pretty much how I see this, too. Two men got into a stressful situation, and each of them thought that the other should be acting more respectfully, and things got out of control.
I would add that yes, we may as a species have a tendency to group together with our own "kind," be it race/ethnicity/religion/whatever, but that tendency shouldn't be used as an excuse for that behavior (not that I read that intent in your post, Thomas :smile:).
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 07:39 PM
As in any country in the world, the making, administration, and enforcement of laws is done by ordinary people. Stressful situations sometimes bring out the best in us, and sometimes the worst, but usually it's somewhere between.
My two cents on this is that both men could have handled the situation a bit better. Gates lost it. Not good, but after identifying Gates as the homeowner, the officer should have just left -- whether Gates was yelling at him or not. End of incident.
My guess is that the officer, like Gates, just couldn't let it go. Crowley couldn't let it go because Gates didn't let it go. Gates was demanding the officer's name and ID. The officer, who was communicating with his department and others, indicated that he was stepping outside, and invited Gates to discuss the matter. But rather than discuss it calmly, Gates took his rant outside into public - and persistent when told not to.
Gates is wholly out of line, and the cop appears to have acted by the book as he is supposed to. Maybe the problem is that Gates didn't get preferential treatment then? Certainly Crowley had the discretion to let it go and release Gates. But Gates wouldn't let go.
The OP is about Obama's reaction. And Obama was out of line and so much has conceded that. Obama should apologize. Period.
arildno
Jul25-09, 07:45 PM
As a matter of fact, Obama should apologize, noting that he let his own racial prejudices impair his judgment.
It would be a courageous thing for a President to say, that he is also liable to such hasty labellings, in order to underline the insidiousness of racialism and how none of us should ever feel above others as being wholly unprejudiced.
Or something along those lines, hopefully with a more elegant phrasing.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 07:49 PM
The bottom line is that Obama should have remained neutral, especially not knowing the facts. All he had to say was that it was an unfortunate incident and that not knowing the facts, he would decline to comment further. That is his responsibility given his position.
I'm sure Al Sharpton is going to step in and add another ring to the circus.
The bottom line is that Obama should have remained neutral, especially not knowing the facts. All he had to say was that it was an unfortunate incident and that not knowing the facts, he would decline to comment further. That is his responsibility given his position.
I'm sure Al Sharpton is going to step in and add another ring to the circus.
Oh I hope Al Sharpton stays in his hole, and keeps out of this!
The media and administration keep referring to this incident as a "teachable moment." Perhaps the lesson is that even a man who is well-educated and generally reasonable and rational can have his judgement temporarily clouded due to emotion, when it comes to issues of race. (Hint: that man's initials are B.H.O.)
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 08:19 PM
Looks to me like he handled it quite well -- possibly even being too lenient -- he kept his cool, made several attempts to calm Gates down, attempted to remove himself from the confrontation, calmly arrested Gates after Gates pursued him outside to continue yelling at him, and took steps to ensure Gates' comfort and the security of his property.
Gates not being calm wasn't really an issue. The police officer could have agreed to disagree in this verbal engagement and left. Gates stepped outside to say the opposite of goodby. So what? To interpret that as disorderly conduct is just ridiculous.
Astronuc:
Crowley couldn't let it go because Gates didn't let it go. Gates was demanding the officer's name and ID. The officer, who was communicating with his department and others, indicated that he was stepping outside, and invited Gates to discuss the matter. But rather than discuss it calmly, Gates took his rant outside into public - and persistent when told not to.
Gates wasn't holding Crowley hostage. He could have left anytime. He somehow missed the fact that Gates was angry, which is strange given what he wrote in his report.
Anyone who has experience dealing with people who are angry about some issue should know that changing the topic of the discussion and starting a new confrontational discussion about that would surely lead to a huge escalation.
Oh I hope Al Sharpton stays in his hole, and keeps out of this!
The media and administration keep referring to this incident as a "teachable moment." Perhaps the lesson is that even a man who is well-educated and generally reasonable and rational can have his judgement temporarily clouded due to emotion, when it comes to issues of race. (Hint: that man's initials are B.H.O.)
Actually Al Sharpton jumped first on the racism train just before this incident gained national attention.
From July 21:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1186039
“I’ve heard of driving while black, and I’ve heard of shopping while black. But I’ve never heard of living in a home while black,” said Sharpton, a New York minister who has made a national name for himself by seizing on cases of alleged racism.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 08:29 PM
Gates wasn't holding Crowley hostage. He could have left anytime. He somehow missed the fact that Gates was angry, which is strange given what he wrote in his report.
Anyone who has experience dealing with people who are angry about some issue should know that changing the topic of the discussion and starting a new confrontational discussion about that would surely lead to a huge escalation. Of course, Gates wasn't holding Crowley hostage, so why bring it up?
Crowley wasn't in a position to leave the scene. Crowley had called other officers including officers from Harvard.
Crowley did step outside, and there he found other cops. Gates came outside and made a spectacle (rant) - then began 'disturbing the peace' (disorderly conduct) and ignoring warnings of the officer. When one persists in violating the law, it doesn't leave an officer much choice but to make an arrest.
Oh I hope Al Sharpton stays in his hole, and keeps out of this!
The media and administration keep referring to this incident as a "teachable moment." Perhaps the lesson is that even a man who is well-educated and generally reasonable and rational can have his judgement temporarily clouded due to emotion, when it comes to issues of race. (Hint: that man's initials are B.H.O.)No, Gates said that he wants to "teach" that policeman at the White House meeting.
Professor Gates said in an e-mail message afterward that he was “pleased to accept his invitation” to come to the White House and meet Sergeant Crowley.
I am determined that this be a teaching moment.”Gates appears to have no intention of apologizing and is intent on making matters worse, from what I've read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/us/politics/25gates.html?_r=2
turbo-1
Jul25-09, 08:37 PM
Please recall that Crowley never presented his PD identification to Gates, which he is required to do under law. Crowley showed up at Gates' door and didn't ask if he was OK or if his belongings had been disturbed. He treated Gates like a suspect in a B&E. Gates told him that he was a Harvard prof and when Gates turned to get his wallet, Crowley followed him into Gates's home uninvited. After Gates presented his ID, Crowley continued to question him, at which time Gates demanded Crowley's PD ID. Crowley refused to provide that, and when he ignored Gates and exited his house, he arrested Gates for creating a "public" disturbance. Sick.
I would have been pretty ticked if a cop treated me this way. BTW, for those that have not seen a response to this situation by an ACLU lawyer, here goes.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2284526&postcount=139
Gates not being calm wasn't really an issue. The police officer could have agreed to disagree in this verbal engagement and left. Gates stepped outside to say the opposite of goodby. So what? To interpret that as disorderly conduct is just ridiculous.
Astronuc:
Gates wasn't holding Crowley hostage. He could have left anytime. He somehow missed the fact that Gates was angry, which is strange given what he wrote in his report.
Anyone who has experience dealing with people who are angry about some issue should know that changing the topic of the discussion and starting a new confrontational discussion about that would surely lead to a huge escalation.
There's always reality, and then theres your opinion. The two don't necessarily agree. Funny how you want to set the rules on how a police officer should do his job. A bit pompous, IMO.
No, Gates said that he wants to "teach" that policeman at the White House meeting. He said he wants it to be a "teachable moment". He needs to shut up and let Crowley teach him some manners. Pompous wind bag.
Hmm...I didn't know that comment originated with Gates. I agree, I think he should stop talking now. The more I hear from him, the less impressed I get.
arildno
Jul25-09, 08:38 PM
He is worse than a pompous wind bag, Evo.
Gates is a racist wind bag.
I'm sure HAVARD is loving the attention Gates is getting. I find it hilarious that a Harvard professor stooped to "Yo momma" comments to a cop.
arildno
Jul25-09, 08:47 PM
Gates deserves to be put into the shame game of being branded as a racist over and over again, until he begs for mercy.
I find Gates' behavior appaling. There is no other way to describe it. I think Harvard should rethink this guy, what an embarrassment to them! His behaviour is not acceptable. My friend at work (black) she's praying for me because of my operation, she said today that he's setting racial relations back 50 years.
Please recall that Crowley never presented his PD identification to Gates, which he is required to do under law. Crowley showed up at Gates' door and didn't ask if he was OK or if his belongings had been disturbed. He treated Gates like a suspect in a B&E. Gates told him that he was a Harvard prof and when Gates turned to get his wallet, Crowley followed him into Gates's home uninvited. After Gates presented his ID, Crowley continued to question him, at which time Gates demanded Crowley's PD ID. Crowley refused to provide that, and when he ignored Gates and exited his house, he arrested Gates for creating a "public" disturbance. Sick.
I would have been pretty ticked if a cop treated me this way. BTW, for those that have not seen a response to this situation by an ACLU lawyer, here goes.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2284526&postcount=139
Really, he "refused" to provide his ID?
Really, he "refused" to provide his ID?Apparently turbo was there and witnessed the whole thing. Film at 11. Funny, the pictures I saw of the incident had all officers wearing their badges on their uniforms. And the account I read said Crowley tried to respond and Gates' yelling cut him off. It was no secret who he was, it could easily be confirmed by police dispatch. Hopefully the whole thing was recorded since Crowley was talking to his dispatch during most of the incident.
arildno
Jul25-09, 09:01 PM
As for this so-called intellectual, he is a post-modernist wind bag, with the following lofty "aim":
"As a black intellectual and public figure, Gates has been an outspoken critic of the Eurocentric literary canon and has instead insisted that black literature must be evaluated by the aesthetic criteria of its culture of origin, not criteria imported from Western or European cultural traditions that express a "tone deafness to the black cultural voice" and result in "intellectual racism."[6] "
This from Wikipedia, and is of course, complete blather.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 09:04 PM
Please recall that Crowley never presented his PD identification to Gates, which he is required to do under law. Crowley showed up at Gates' door and didn't ask if he was OK or if his belongings had been disturbed. He treated Gates like a suspect in a B&E. Gates told him that he was a Harvard prof and when Gates turned to get his wallet, Crowley followed him into Gates's home uninvited. After Gates presented his ID, Crowley continued to question him, at which time Gates demanded Crowley's PD ID. Crowley refused to provide that, and when he ignored Gates and exited his house, he arrested Gates for creating a "public" disturbance. Sick.
I would have been pretty ticked if a cop treated me this way. BTW, for those that have not seen a response to this situation by an ACLU lawyer, here goes.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2284526&postcount=139 Crowley identified himself by name and as being from the Cambridge Police Dept, according to his police report. It does not go into the details of whether or not Crowley was wearing a badge at the time. Ostensibly, if Crowley was in uniform, he perhaps was wearing his badge, which would have the number on it.
There is a dispute about whether Gates produced only a University ID or Univ ID and driver's license.
According to the police report, Crowley invited Gates outside to 'talk' with him. If that is the case, then Crowley certainly did not ignore Gates. With other police officers present, it should have been clear that Crowley was indeed a police officer. I have seen no evidence that Crowley refused to produce ID.
Crowley could probably have handled it better, but then it was in the heat of the moment. I don't think an officer needs to stop in the middle of an investigation to provide ID to a suspect.
And Obama should have remained neutral.
Count Iblis
Jul25-09, 09:07 PM
There's always reality, and then theres your opinion. The two don't necessarily agree. Funny how you want to set the rules on how a police officer should do his job. A bit pompous, IMO.
Well, you're defending the US rules of engagement for the police, but then in the US you have 1% of the population behind bars. :biggrin:
Well, you're defending the US rules of engagement for the police, but then in the US you have 1% of the population behind bars. :biggrin:
What can I say, we are awesome. We are the best at everything we do. :biggrin:
Well, you're defending the US rules of engagement for the police,:Because this was in the US, perhaps?
According to the police report, Crowley invited Gates outside to 'talk' with him. If that is the case, then Crowley certainly did not ignore Gates. With other police officers present, it should have been clear that Crowley was indeed a police officer. I have seen no evidence that Crowley refused to produce ID.
Crowley could probably have handled it better, but then it was in the heat of the moment. I don't think an officer needs to stop in the middle of an investigation to provide ID to a suspect.
And Obama should have remained neutral.As you can see, all officers have their badges prominently displayed.
And as you can see Gates' yap is wide open.
Hahah, even Crowley's hand is placed in such a way suggesting Gates calm down. That black cop is also a racist, BTW.
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 09:35 PM
As you can see, all officers have their badges prominently displayed.
And as you can see Gates' yap is wide open.
So now you can gather from that picture what he's saying and how he's saying it?
Beside that, showing a picture of a man WRONGLY arrested isn't exactly helping your point...a wrongly arrested man is going to be upset.
Also, Police officers are required by law to state their badge number when it is requested, Crowley refused. He just offered his name when repeatedly asked by Gates. The only law that was broken in this incident it seems.
Just to respond to a few more points that have been posted. It doesn't matter one bit if Gates was being disrespectful, that isn't grounds for an arrest. Period. To imply that Gates "had it coming" because of his minute, harmless actions towards the cop is asbolutely assinine.
The officer arrested him on trumped up charges. Gates broke NO laws. Sure he may have acted like a jackass, but how does that lend any amount of credence to the officers actions? Being a jackass isn't an arrestable offense.
Great Time article that some of you should read.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1912778,00.html?artId=1912778?contType=arti cle?chn=us
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 09:38 PM
I can't tell from that picture if any of those officers is Crowley. I haven't seen a picture of Crowley at the time of the Gates's arrest.
If Crowley was in uniform like those officers in the picture, then ostensibly Gates could have seen the badge, and possibly the number.
So now you can gather from that picture what he's saying and how he's saying it?
Beside that, showing a picture of a man WRONGLY arrested isn't exactly helping your point...a wrongly arrested man is going to be upset. But he wasn't wrongly arrested. And show me where I said what he was saying. I said he had his yap open, and he does.
Gates wasn't arested for being "disrespectful". I'm really surprised that he wasn't also charged with interfering with a police officer on top of disorderly conduct.
How Does a Court Determine if Non-physical Interference Constitutes Resisting or Obstructing a Police Officer?
As long as the facts show a good amount of interference with police, it's still possible to be charged with resisting or obstructing a police officer.
What are Some Examples of Non-physical Interference Charged as Resisting or Obstructing a Police Officer?
The following examples come from actual cases where resisting or obstructing a police officer was found:
■Questioning an officer's authority
■Giving an officer false information
■Using profanity directed at an officer
■Advise or incite others in their dealings with an officer
■Refusing to accept a parking ticket or speeding citation
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/obstructing-or-resisting-a-police-officer-absent-physical-force.html
So, yes, he broke the law.
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 09:42 PM
But he wasn't wrongly arrested. And show me where I said what he was saying. I said he had his yap open, and he does.
Read the Time article i linked.
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 09:46 PM
I can't tell from that picture if any of those officers is Crowley. I haven't seen a picture of Crowley at the time of the Gates's arrest.
If Crowley was in uniform like those officers in the picture, then ostensibly Gates could have seen the badge, and possibly the number.
Astro you're a gentleman and a scholar, however, you should be aware that that an officer is required by law to STATE their badge number when it is requested. Crowley didn't do that.
Astro you're a gentleman and a scholar, however, you should be aware that that an officer is required by law to STATE their badge number when it is requested. Crowley didn't do that.He started to and was cut off by Gates' ranting. Whether crowley vrbally responded doesn't change the fact of Gates' abuse, disorderly conduct and interference with an officer. the first words out of gates' mouth in response to the officer's request for ID was "Why, because I am a black man in America? hoo boy.
Read the Time article i linked.That's a biased personal opinion piece. And a really poorly written one at that.
berkeman
Jul25-09, 09:53 PM
Astro you're a gentleman and a scholar, however, you should be aware that that an officer is required by law to STATE their badge number when it is requested. Crowley didn't do that.
Could you please provide a link for that? Does it vary by state? We like to see real links here at the PF (you may be right, I'd just like to see it). If you're wearing a badge with a number, you're still required to say it out loud when demanded during an arrest?.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 10:09 PM
Could you please provide a link for that? Does it vary by state? We like to see real links here at the PF (you may be right, I'd just like to see it). If you're wearing a badge with a number, you're still required to say it out loud when demanded during an arrest?. Back in turbo's post #139 of this thread, he cited an article that links to the Massachusetts State General Laws
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm
PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT
TITLE VII. CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS
CHAPTER 41. OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES OF CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS
POLICE OFFICERS
Chapter 41: Section 98D. Identification cards
Section 98D. Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer’s person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification. So yes, Crowley is required to present his identity upon lawful request.
It's not clear to me whether he did or did not. Perhaps he hadn't gotten around to it because of Gates's outburst and disorderly conduct - outside of the house.
Anybody who was not present is only speculating what did or did not transpire.
I can only go on the police report, and I'm willing to give the officer the benefit of assumption that his is being truthful.
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 10:14 PM
He started to and was cut off by Gates' ranting.
Uh no. Crowley was able to state his name three times over Gates "ranting", yet not his badge number? really? I just doubt a Harvard Professor would need to keep asking him for his name and badge number if he received it...it SEEMS like he would have written it down and moved on to telling him what was going to happen to him due to his actions.
As for the link you posted...context, Evo. He was in his home when the "rants" occurred. That was not a crime because he was in HIS house. When Gates stepped outside he merely asked another officer at the scene for Crowleys name and badge number. Not grounds for arrest.
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 10:17 PM
Back in turbo's post #139 of this thread, he cited an article that links to the Massachusetts State General Laws
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm
So yes, Crowley is required to present his identity upon lawful request.
It's not clear to me whether he did or did not. Perhaps he hadn't gotten around to it because of Gates's outburst and disorderly conduct - outside of the house.
Anybody who was not present is only speculating what did or did not transpire.
I can only go on the police report, and I'm willing to give the officer the benefit of assumption that his is being truthful.
So we agree Crowley broke the law? yeah seems about right.
There's two sides to every story Astro. I suggest you read Gates side also, not just the police report. The "outbursts" occurred AFTER Gates requested his badge number and he refused to state it.
Heres his side
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1
When Gates stepped outside he merely asked another officer at the scene for Crowleys name and badge number. Not grounds for arrest.If you read the police report you will see that there were grounds for arrest on at least two counts. There were witnesses, both police and civilian. These witnesses have made statements as to Gates' behavior and they back up the officer. No one that witnessed the event backs up Gates' version.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 10:32 PM
So we agree Crowley broke the law? yeah seems about right. No. There is no indication that Crowley broke the law.
There's two sides to every story Astro. I suggest you read Gates side also, not just the police report. The "outbursts" occurred AFTER Gates requested his badge number and he refused to state it.
Heres his side
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1 Such a link is a unofficial transcript of Gates's view. The statements therein appear to contradict the police report.
Of course there are two sides to this story/conflict.
At the time Gates made his request for the officers ID, he was a suspect. Was his request lawful? If Crowley did not produce his ID at that point, was Crowley in violation of the particular Mass. General Law? Were there mitigating circumstances, e.g., the officer was in the middle of an investigation, in which case Gates's outburst was an interference with the law?
Esoteric
Jul25-09, 10:52 PM
No. There is no indication that Crowley broke the law.
Such a link is a unofficial transcript of Gates's view. The statements therein appear to contradict the police report.
Of course there are two sides to this story/conflict.
At the time Gates made his request for the officers ID, he was a suspect. Was his request lawful? If Crowley did not produce his ID at that point, was Crowley in violation of the particular Mass. General Law? Were there mitigating circumstances, e.g., the officer was in the middle of an investigation, in which case Gates's outburst was an interference with the law?
Crowley is required by law to state his badge number, he did not(the police report makes no claim that he did).
Gates request of Crowleys name and badge number occured AFTER it was established that Gates was the owner of the home. How is he still a suspect? Crowley conceded Gates request was lawful when Crowley stated his NAME. If the request was unlawful why state his name and not his badge number? he is required to state both.
If the latter part of your post is fact(the "Outburst" that occurred outside, Evo says witness agree), then both broke the laws that day. Both are equally to blame for this escalation.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 10:58 PM
Uh no. Crowley was able to state his name three times over Gates "ranting", yet not his badge number? really? I just doubt a Harvard Professor would need to keep asking him for his name and badge number if he received it...it SEEMS like he would have written it down and moved on to telling him what was going to happen to him due to his actions.
Have you ever dealt with this sort of situation before? As an authority figure? I have and can assure you its not uncommon.
As for the link you posted...context, Evo. He was in his home when the "rants" occurred. That was not a crime because he was in HIS house. When Gates stepped outside he merely asked another officer at the scene for Crowleys name and badge number. Not grounds for arrest.
According to the police reports and witness accounts Gates followed Crowley outside and continued ranting at him and/or his audience in general.
So we agree Crowley broke the law? yeah seems about right.
There's two sides to every story Astro. I suggest you read Gates side also, not just the police report. The "outbursts" occurred AFTER Gates requested his badge number and he refused to state it.
Heres his side
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1
And there is nothing detering Gates from making the story out any way he pleases. The police officer could lose his job for falsifying any information in his report.
Crowley is required by law to state his badge number, he did not(the police report makes no claim that he did).
Gates request of Crowleys name and badge number occured AFTER it was established that Gates was the owner of the home. How is he still a suspect? Crowley conceded Gates request was lawful when Crowley stated his NAME. If the request was unlawful why state his name and not his badge number? he is required to state both.
If the latter part of your post is fact(the "Outburst" that occurred outside, Evo says witness agree), then both broke the laws that day. Both are equally to blame for this escalation.
The moral of the story: always pack a lawyer.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul25-09, 11:06 PM
Crowley is required by law to state his badge number, he did not(the police report makes no claim that he did).
Gates request of Crowleys name and badge number occured AFTER it was established that Gates was the owner of the home. How is he still a suspect? Crowley conceded Gates request was lawful when Crowley stated his NAME. If the request was unlawful why state his name and not his badge number? he is required to state both.
If the latter part of your post is fact(the "Outburst" that occurred outside, Evo says witness agree), then both broke the laws that day. Both are equally to blame for this escalation.
From what I read of the report Gates asked for Crowley's name. I did not see any reference to a request for badge number but I will take a look and see.... nope. Just says he asked for a name. And according to Crowley he furnished it but Gates apparently did not hear because he was busy ranting. Gates made a request for Crowley's ID before furnishing his own. At that point Crowley may not have been obliged to show it, the law states it is to be furnished upon "lawful request". I am unsure what exactly constitutes a lawful request. How about you? I am pretty sure that while questioning a suspect in a possible burglary, before they have properly identified themselves with ID, an officer is not likely under any obligation to show ID other than a badge which is usually worn in plain view on the uniform.
Astronuc
Jul25-09, 11:10 PM
Crowley is required by law to state his badge number, he did not(the police report makes no claim that he did).
Gates request of Crowleys name and badge number occured AFTER it was established that Gates was the owner of the home. How is he still a suspect? Crowley conceded Gates request was lawful when Crowley stated his NAME. If the request was unlawful why state his name and not his badge number? he is required to state both.
If the latter part of your post is fact(the "Outburst" that occurred outside, Evo says witness agree), then both broke the laws that day. Both are equally to blame for this escalation. I wasn't there, and neither was anyone else from PF. I have read a lot of a claims in this thread based on speculation about specifics.
The police report acknowledges a univeristy ID, but does not mention a drivers license. Officer Crowley's report indicates that the resident (later identified as Gates) was uncooperative. Gates was apparently on the phone calling someone else. If Crowley was in uniform, then perhaps he was wearing his badge where Gates could see it. Perhaps Crowley never got a chance to present his ID because he had to deal with Gates's outburst (disorderly conduct).
There appears to be contridictory statements from Gates with respect to the police report. I guess we'll have to wait for Gates to file a suit.
Meanwhile, the OP is about Obama's response, while most of the arguing is about what Crowley or Gates did or did not do, which is all based on hearsay, with the exception of the police report, which is the only legal document presented with respect to the event in question.
Let's wait until Gates is deposed.
Heres his side
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1
It's certainly colorful! The fact I hadn't seen a report like that was one of the biggest pieces missing from the hypothesis that Gates' doesn't have a legitimate claim that he was mistreated.
The thing I find most interesting about his report is that once he made his first request for the officer's name along with his threat, he looks like he goes into a panic and starts yelling "I want your name and badge number" over and over, with the "I'm a black man and you're a white cop" included somewhere in the middle.
The two accounts (at least the part I'm about to describe) fit surprisingly well
...
*Gates' provides his ID*
*Crowley studies the IDs, then turns his attention to his police radio to call for Harvard police*
Gates: "I want your name and badge number so I can file a complaint about how you treated me at the door"*
Gates: *goes into panic*
Gates: "I want your name and badge number."
Gates: "I want your name and badge number."
*Crowley finishes his radio call, and focuses back on Gates*
Gates: "I want your name and badge number."
Crowley: "I'm off--"
Gates: "You're not answering me because I'm a black man and you're a white cop!"
*Gates continues his panic, not really noticing what Crowley's saying*
*Crowley tries to leave*
...
It's certainly colorful! The fact I hadn't seen a report like that was one of the biggest pieces missing from the hypothesis that Gates' doesn't have a legitimate claim that he was mistreated.
Gate's laywer is a master in penmenship.
Legitimate means legal. That's irrelevent to the facts. I don't think you have a full appreciation of the asocial dynamics. When is the last time you were encouraged to withdraw from a black history class?
When is the last time you were encouraged to withdraw from a black history class?
:confused:
Man things like this make me scared of being WHITE, lol.
Imagine a black officer had talked to Gates. I'm sure the officer would have acted the same way at the beginning... Then Gates would have gone into his house, probably happy the police are doing a great job of protecting his neighbourhood.
TheStatutoryApe
Jul26-09, 07:57 AM
Man things like this make me scared of being WHITE, lol.
Imagine a black officer had talked to Gates. I'm sure the officer would have acted the same way at the beginning... Then Gates would have gone into his house, probably happy the police are doing a great job of protecting his neighbourhood.
I know that I am not a police officer but I have actually had an opposite experience myself.
I have very rarely had any trouble with black people in my job. I've actually had the most trouble with white people (I am white myself). When I worked at the college half my coworkers were black and probably about a fourth of the students were black. It seemed to me that the black students gave my black coworkers a harder time than they gave me. From what I could tell it seemed that they felt my black coworkers should be more amenable to their protests. Similarly the white students often gave me a harder time than they gave my black coworkers.
Many times I have thought over my experiences in my job and considered the interesting differences in people and the way they react to me. I don't often talk about my thoughts though because I am worried people may think I am racist. It just seems that people of different cultures have rather different attitudes towards authority figures.
turbo-1
Jul26-09, 10:23 AM
Apparently turbo was there and witnessed the whole thing.Very funny. The difference between you and me is that I give credence to Gates' version of the events, because it makes more sense. Gates answered the door, while talking on his portable phone to arrange to get his door repaired, and a cop was on his porch and asked Gates to come outside. Gates refused, and said that he was a Harvard professor, and that he lived in the house. Crowley demanded ID, and when Gates turned to go to get his wallet, Crowley followed him into the house uninvited. Being treated as a break-in suspect in my own home and having a cop come into my home uninvited with no warrant would have ticked me off. Think of how Gates must have felt. Here he is, an older man who walks with the aid of a cane, who answers the front door to find himself a suspect in a break-in.
Is that logical? If he were a burglar, would he have been making phone calls from the place he broke into, and would he have answered the door instead of laying low? Those are pretty good indications that he lived in the house, and was not a burglar. Still, Crowley treated him as a suspect, not as a possible victim of a break-in. Gates had a pretty good reason to feel that race might have been a factor in his treatment, because seeing a ~60 year old white man or woman calmly answering the door while making a phone call would probably have prompted the officer to stand down and ask if there had been a break-in or a robbery or any other trouble at the house.
Astronuc
Jul26-09, 10:38 AM
Gates says it's time to 'move on' from his arrest
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090726/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly
It's time to move on.
ThomasT
Jul26-09, 12:06 PM
re the Time opinion piece linked to by Esoteric:
That's a biased personal opinion piece. And a really poorly written one at that.I thought it was well enough written. Police routinely abuse their positions.
Keep in mind that the first duty of every citizen in a free society is to question authority. Our Constitution, our sytem of government, is based on the notion that those who are given the authority to make, administer, and enforce laws can't be trusted. Any disrespect they're shown has been earned many times over.
After doing what he was sent there to do, and assessing that Gates was no threat, the officer should have just left. The alarming thing about the incident, to me, is that if Gates wasn't a famous person, he would be caught up in a system that, in practice, has little to do with justice.
Keeping the system under constant close scrutiny is why any incidents like this should be fueled.
It's time to move on.Yes, that's what the officer should have done after he did what he was sent there to do -- ie., assessing whether or not Gates was a threat.
That's what RoboCop would have done. :smile:
Not only is there abuse of power by police, there is also abuse of power by prosecutors, see e.g.here: (http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/2009/02/latest-illinois-exoneree-alan-beaman.html)
I'm sure if it was a black cop white person scenario where the white person treated the black cop rudely just because the cop was black and he was white it would be a whole new ball game right?
Being treated as a break-in suspect in my own home and having a cop come into my home uninvited with no warrant would have ticked me off. Here he is, an older man who walks with the aid of a cane, who answers the front door to find himself a suspect in a break-in.
He was more than just a suspect, he was guilty. He, and his driver, physically forced the front door to gain entry.
If you would get angry under such circumstances, then you sir have a serious problem.
Still, Crowley treated him as a suspect, not as a possible victim of a break-in.
Of course. Not only did he had eyewitness testimony that the people who broke in haven't yet left, but Gates was being combative too.
Gates had a pretty good reason to feel that race might have been a factor in his treatment,
Gates was already convinced race was a factor upon the initial greeting when he was asked to come outside. (okay, he was convinced he was in real danger -- I assume that to include thinking racial motivation)
because seeing a ~60 year old white man or woman calmly answering the door while making a phone call would probably have prompted the officer to stand down and ask if there had been a break-in or a robbery or any other trouble at the house.
Do you have evidence? Or is this sheer speculation.
This thread is going way off topic (off topic posts deleted). If and when Obama apologizes, then we can discuss that. Closed.
Astronuc
Jul27-09, 12:46 PM
Update: Mass. police to release 911 call in Gates arrest
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_calle
Orginially this story was: Cambridge police: Race not mentioned in 911 call
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/6548967.html
. . . .
Lucia Whalen placed the 911 call July 16, saying she saw two men on Gates' front porch who appeared to be trying to force open the front door. . . .
In the statement issued Sunday by attorney Wendy Murphy, Whalen — who has not spoken publicly — said she only saw the backs of the two men and did not know their race when she made the call. Murphy said Whalen, who works nearby, called because she had been aware of recent break-ins in the area and wanted to correct "misinformation" suggesting that she placed the call because the men on the porch were black.
"Contrary to published reports that a 'white woman' called 911 and reported seeing 'two black men' trying to gain entry into Mr. Gates home, the woman, who has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent, told the 911 operator that she observed 'two men' at the home," Murphy's statement read.
Murphy said Whalen has been very upset by news reports she believes have unfairly depicted her as a racist.
"She doesn't live in the area. She is by no means the entitled white neighbor ... That has been the theme in the blogs and the implication in some of the mainstream news media," Murphy said in a phone interview Monday.
"She didn't know their race, and it's very clear that she called not because of what they looked like but because of what they were doing."
. . . .
This article dispels some of the rumors and innuendo surrounding the incident.
It's important to wait for facts and not rush to judgement based on hearsay.
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