News Is the Israel Wall a symbol of oppression?

[Shahil]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1560739,00.html

The UN General Assembly overwhelmingly approved a resolution demanding that Israel comply with a world court decision and tear down the barrier it is building to seal off the West Bank. But a defiant Israel vowed to continue construction.

Tuesday's vote was 150 in favour, 6 opposed including the United States, and 10 abstentions.

What are your views on the wall?

My view: It's been nicknamed the "Apartheid Wall" and it dwarfs the Berlin Wall. It's just a massive symbol of oppression which should not exist in todays's society. Why they were allowed to build it is beyond me and I personally think it should go. Also, as I asked earlier, WHY did the US vote in favour of it staying up?

 

[balkan]

well, part of the wall was built inside palestinian territory... furthermore, it made it impossible for the already compromized regular palestinians to get to school and work on the other side... I'm personally beginning to believe that israel wants to create terrorism, so that they have an excuse for getting rid of the palestinians so israel can be spread across the entire area...
nuff said...

 

[drag]

This barrier is just a temporary border line between
Israel and the Palestinian territories, a natural
continuation of a state border. Something like
this should have been built a long time ago but
internal politics prevented it. This border, even though
partly built for now and progressing slowly, has already
prevented the death of 200-300 Israeli citizens in
terrorist attacks for the past year or so, compared
to statistics of an earlier year. It also saved the lives
of some innocent Palestinians who could've suffered
due to higher Israeli anti-terrorist activities.

The whole argument is not about its existence but rather
about its location. It is not located on the 1967 lines.
(The difference is not serious - according to the recent plans.)
However, it would be illogical for Israel to errect a border
there. Since the Palestinian leadership currently has
no ability of proper government, chaos reigns in the Palestinian
territories and terrorist organizations dictate their own rule,
Israel has no one to nagotiate with for anything, and all it
can do is await better times while it rightfully protects itself.

 

[drag]

btw, these references to Appertheid or Berlin or
completely out of place. Israel and the PA have different
defined territories and different people. There are
no simularities here whatsoever.

The US vote is abvious, right and brave. The US,
unlike so many other countries cares about peace
in its borders and in the world and the lives of
people, a peace which is currently threathened by
terrorism. And is not afraid of the Muslim dictatorships
and terrorist warlords, who strangely enough, are
considerd fully ligitimate in their pretty UN seats.

 

[Hurkyl]

Why doesn't anyone compare it to the Great Wall of China?

 

[drag]

Quite right.
But, we don't want to insult the Mongols.

 

[Adam]

Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.

 

[russ_watters]

Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.

Who was constantly attacking Germany "in the approach to WW2?"

 

[Hurkyl]

Wasn't France the one fortifying prior to WWII?

 

[GENIERE]

As Israel has long been the dominant military force in the mid-east one wonders why they did not exercise their ability to dominate all their neighbors. That they haven’t is a remarkable testament to the noble qualities of the Israel citizen. The despotic leaders of the surrounding countries and the Palestinians should be very happy the Israelis merely built a wall.

In Adam speak; the Germans constructed La Ligne Maginot to fend off the French.

 

[Robert Zaleski]

Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.

Lebensraum und Grossraumwirtschaft, ja Herr Adam?

Am I the only one who caught Ariel Shiron's spellbinding speech on Temple Mount justifying territorial expansion to a mesmerized Israeli horde.

 

[russ_watters]

As Israel has long been the dominant military force in the mid-east one wonders why they did not exercise their ability to dominate all their neighbors. That they haven’t is a remarkable testament to the noble qualities of the Israel citizen. The despotic leaders of the surrounding countries and the Palestinians should be very happy the Israelis merely built a wall.

Yes, I think they have shown remarkable restraint for the past 35 years. I think part of the reason they have is we have them on a leash. And the corollary to that is that if we stop giving them aid, the leash comes off...

 

[drag]

Really, Russ ?
How about - they just wan'na live in peace and just
be left the FXXX alone by all those crazy nutcases.

 

[russ_watters]

Really, Russ ?
How about - they just wan'na live in peace and just
be left the FXXX alone by all those crazy nutcases.

Yeah, wink...

...but if Canadians were blowing up busses and pizza parlors full of civilians on a weekly basis, we wouldn't wait 35 years to overrun them.

 

[Adam]

Who was constantly attacking Germany "in the approach to WW2?"

You think there were no Jewish groups, communists, liberals, homsexuals, gypsies, blacks, and others who were annoyed with what Hitler was doing?

 

[Adam]

In Adam speak; the Germans constructed La Ligne Maginot to fend off the French.

Germany:
- Forced relocations into controllable areas.
- Killing any leaders of the subject group.
- Basically oppressing the hell out of them.
- Teaching their own kids that Israelis are all thieving, murdering, sub-human scum.

Israel:
- Forced relocations into controllable areas.
- Killing any leaders of the subject group.
- Basically oppressing the hell out of them.
- Teaching their own kids that Palestinians are all thieving, murdering, sub-human scum.

 

[loseyourname]

Jews:
- Were not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Did not teach children that all Germans were subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Do carry out regular attacks on Israeli civilians.
- Do teach that Jews are subhuman scum.

When did your world get so one-dimensional, Adam?

 

[Adam]

Jews:
- Were not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Did not teach children that all Germans were subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Do carry out regular attacks on Israeli civilians.
- Do teach that Jews are subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Are not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do not teach children than Jews are subhuman scum.

Israelis:
- Do carry out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do teach their children that Palestinians are subhuman scum.

Some Palestinians, not "Palestinians", attack civilian targets. The IDF does it as a matter of policy.

When did your world get so one-dimensional, Adam?

The assertion that my world is one-dimensional lacks support. You waste energy by typing such drivel.

And now, for the educational benefit of those who clearly don't observe the world around them...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DBFFC9EA-FB90-4A06-9C30-091D9B118EEE.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8249433%255E1702,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=499003
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7567019%255E1702,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6E27ADF-9E5B-45CD-A4CD-403A3BCF3D39.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7543145%255E401,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EE06A7BC-F8D2-4CE9-8A9F-DC2A62B2C133.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/67979658-79FE-4CD1-83A4-7D378A081848.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7473991%255E401,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-428E-B8E5-26E52D387622.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,917834,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4629052-103681,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedstates/unpolicy/gen2003/0115us.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/veto/2002/1223israel.htm

HISTORY OF THE ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT

GENERAL:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/025974039acfb171852560de00548bbe

HISTORY:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/c426c561856178058025647400468f80
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/40af4c8615bc9837802564740046f767

UN RESOLUTIONS:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,242
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7fb7c26fcbe80a31852560c50065f878?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,338

MAPS:
http://domino.un.org/maps/pal_maps.htm

 

[Adam]

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

PART ONE

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Date:15/05/2001


Israeli school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray
Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'" said Professor Bar- Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of."

Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel's ancient past and how the land was "neglected and destroyed" by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it "with the help of the Zionist movement."

"This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land," Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. "The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land."

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: "unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic." Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were "tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored" and "they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed."

Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew-as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.

"When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date '1948' barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead," said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. "Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about 'peace and co-existence,' it is to teach us how to get along with Jews."

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel's population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

"Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians," Atamneh said. "For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel."

 

[Adam]

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

PART TWO

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Date:15/05/2001

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. "How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?"

Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.

"No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities."

Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks

Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.

"Passages from 'experts' about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the
textbook authors were not eager to adopt it," said Dr. Podeh, adding that "the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.
"While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications," said Dr. Podeh. "The establishment has preferred-or felt itself forced-to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity."

One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters' attitudes toward Palestinians.

"Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us," said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.

"We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don't mention what happened to the Arabs-they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes," said Banvolegyi.

Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.

"One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw," said Banvolegyi. "Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers' attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs."

Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, "are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don't care about this country. But I do care and that's why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out."

Racist Israeli Upbringing

Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.

"Unfortunately Israeli children's books are not an option for promoting equality in this society," said Atamneh, citing a book
written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.

Cohen's book is a study of the nature of children's upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the "Arab" as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.

Cohen's study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.

"So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you'd never know anything else," said Atamneh.

"But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It's the only way."

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Great. We are supposed to educated by Al Jazeera and The Guardian.

 

[Adam]

Al Jazeera is a very good news source. As is news.com.au. The BBC is quite good too. The Independent is ok. Globalpolicy has well-researched articles. The UN is generally a rather good source if information too.

Got any other logical fallacies and limp objections to make?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Al Jazeera is a very good news source.

Good news source = agrees with Adam's leftist ideals.

 

[Adam]

Yay. Another logical fallacy. When you decide to start making sense, come back and feel free to attempt an adult discussion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Yay. Another logical fallacy.

Would you care to explain?

 

[loseyourname]

Palestinians:
- Are not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do not teach children than Jews are subhuman scum.

Israelis:
- Do carry out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do teach their children that Palestinians are subhuman scum.

Some Palestinians, not "Palestinians", attack civilian targets. The IDF does it as a matter of policy.

Now there's a dubious claim if I ever heard one. Given that the Palestinians have no formal military structure, what exactly are you considering to be a "civilian target" here?

The fact remains that the Jews were doing nothing of harm to Germany, and no Jews were carrying out any attacks on any targets, civilian or otherwise. That is not the case with the Palestinians in Israel. Your analogy is terrible flawed, partisan, and misleading and you know it. You love to use these dramatic example that don't apply to make a point you don't have. I've never once seen you present a reasonable, diplomatic assessment of a situation.

The assertion that my world is one-dimensional lacks support. You waste energy by typing such drivel.

You're living in the same world as Bush. There is good, and there is evil. Only one side is to blame in every conflict, and it is always the side that the US supports. The world is not that one-dimensional. To pretend that the Palestinians are blameless in this conflict and that the Israelis are behaving like the Nazis did in the 30's is ridiculous and does nothing to advance the Palestinian cause. People like you just make them look even worse. You are doing them a disservice. You would be better to keep your mouth completely shut and let humans that are capable of a multifaceted, complex analysis of military ethnic struggles speak for them.

All you do is polarize this forum and start arguments. Grow up.

 

[GENIERE]

At the end of Adam’s amusing citation: “ Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.”

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist based in the West Bank. She is married to Jiries Atrash, a Palestinian Authority official in Jericho.

I always ask Rush Limbaugh when searching for the un-biased truth.

 

[Adam]

Now there's a dubious claim if I ever heard one. Given that the Palestinians have no formal military structure, what exactly are you considering to be a "civilian target" here?

Are you claiming there are no innocent civilian Palestinians? If not, then what are you whinging about?

The fact remains that the Jews were doing nothing of harm to Germany, and no Jews were carrying out any attacks on any targets, civilian or otherwise.

Once again, you need to go to school and learn a little history. You may begin with these:
http://www.azenphonypress.com/books/forjews.html
http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-2000/The%20anti%20fascist%20resistance.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/research/jrbiblio/poland.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/research/
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/jewishresistence.htm
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/j_germany39.htm
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/arts/litResis.htm
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/cooperation-resistance.shtml
http://www.rossel.net/Holocaust11.htm
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm

If you had even the slightest familiarity with history, you would know that Jewish fighters formed groups all over the place and performed attacks against NAZI personnel and assets.

You're living in the same world as Bush. There is good, and there is evil. Only one side is to blame in every conflict, and it is always the side that the US supports.

Can you support this assertion?

All you do is polarize this forum and start arguments. Grow up.

I don't make the facts, I just report the facts. An adult might realize this. Read the information I supply, and learn.

 

[Adam]

At the end of Adam’s amusing citation: “ Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.”

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist based in the West Bank. She is married to Jiries Atrash, a Palestinian Authority official in Jericho.

I always ask Rush Limbaugh when searching for the un-biased truth.

Once again, a logical fallacy. Do you have anything to say about the material, or only about the person?

Read and learn:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#hominem
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_adhominem_index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Then come back and contribute something.

 

[Adam]

In fact, does anyone have anything other than an ad hominem to offer? Can anyone actually respond to the information supplied?