Justice for Victims of Agent Orange

[hiphys]

To: The U.S. President and others
AGENT ORANGE, THE CHEMICAL, has killed, is still killing, and causing great suffering to over three million people in Vietnam.

PLEASE HELP THEM BY SIGNING THIS PETITION on http://www.petitiononline.com/AOVN/petition.html
We welcome and support the Civil Action brought by the Vietnam Association of Victims of Agent Orange/Dioxin, and three Vietnamese victims. The documents have been submitted to a court in New York, on behalf of all affected by the chemicals used by the American Forces in their War on Vietnam.

This will be the first ever such action by Vietnamese victims of Agent Orange in any court of law.

We call upon the U.S. President, Government and the Chemical Companies named as defendants in the documents, to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

Sincerely,

[Adam]

Yep, I have signed. Such savage use of chemical weapons must be properly addressed at some point.

[hiphys]

Agent Orange is still being blamed for birth defects more than 30 years since its use
Researchers reported at the conference that a new study shows extremely high levels of dioxin in the blood of residents of Bien Hoa, a highly sprayed area near a former U.S. air base, more than 30 years after spraying ended.

Some of the highest levels -- reaching 206 times greater than average -- were found in people born well after spraying stopped, indicating exposure to persistent dioxin residues in soil and water, the researchers said.

Dioxin, one of the most poisonous chemicals created by man, is also one of the most persistent pollutants.

Vietnam's cash-strapped government has not been able to clean up the dioxin pollution in Bien Hoa or resettle the area's 20,000 residents.

At the conference Vice Minister Nguyen talked of the need to clear the area of toxins.

"The objective is to bring dioxin contamination across Vietnam down to internationally acceptable levels and do all that can be done to mitigate the health effects," Nguyen said.

"The United States waged chemical warfare against Vietnam 30 years ago. Cooperation with the U.S. is very necessary."

Anne Sassaman of the U.S. National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences told the conference the talks over the next two days would deal with setting research priorities.

Collaboration started between the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Vietnam would likely result in scientists in Vietnam being able to evaluate and define the extent of the residual hazard posed by Agent Orange and dioxin, she added.

Vietnam Veterans of America, which has lobbied for years to get compensation for its members, said it was anxious to see research move ahead in Vietnam.

[JohnDubYa]

Agent Orange was not a weapon.

[kat]

Well, I'm glad to see that they are having their day in court, but how does a petition help their court case? I'm feeling a bit dubious about the intentions of the petition. It would seem that it would have no relevancy whatsovever and that someone may instead be harvesting information and email addresses.

[JohnDubYa]

If the Vietnamese are having their day in court, what is the purpose of the petition in the first place? If the petition is being served to those involved in a trial, is it even legal?

[hiphys]

The purpose of this petition is collecting at least 300.000 signatures before December 2004.This petition will be sent to American government .
This program was created by Len Aldis, the president of Britain-Vietnam Friendship Society.He himself has seen the terrible effects of AGENT ORANGE on many Vietnamese in many generations. He wrote this petition to call the supports and notice of people around the world.
By signing this petition, you can show that you one of those who support the AGENT ORANGE affected Vietnamese.The petition can be consider as the voice of peace-lovers .
We close the past, but we can't forget it, and we need to do something to heal the sorrow.

[hiphys]

I wish that you can see the sorrow in an Agent orange affected child.Many children in Vietnam have been being stolen their childhood, their life by Agent orange .You can search "Agent orange " on Google to see what happened.
Vietnam has tried a lot to heal the sorrow of the war. It has been 29 years since the war ended, but the Agent orange still exists as the ghost of war.
It has killed, is still killing, and causing great suffering to over three million people in Vietnam...
Let the conscience say...

[hiphys]

**********PICTURE OF AN AGENT ORANGE AFFECTED CHILD********


"This is Le Minh Dat in Quang Tri ,Vietnam.
This photo was taken in 1998, when Dat was 13 years old.People said that he couldn't understand anything because his brain had "died".But I felt he still understood ! He lay on the bed, I had taken a lot of photos and looked at him for a long time.When I was going to leave, his eyes traced me and give his hand to me..."
Written by Philip Jones Griffiths,photographer.
The author, of "Agent orange “collateral damage” in Vietnam"

[phatmonky]

By signing this petition, you can show that you one of those who support the AGENT ORANGE affected Vietnamese.


The petition can be consider as the voice of peace-lovers .

We close the past, but we can't forget it, and we need to do something to heal the sorrow.


Support them do what?


How is that? No one is petitioning against a war.

heal the sorrow? Sir, you will do better in your cause by not using cliches.

[phatmonky]

We call upon the U.S. President, Government and the Chemical Companies named as defendants in the documents, to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

What exactly would I be signing? I personally would need proof that the chemical companies have any resposibility. I also don't know what "full compensation" means.

right now, Im leaning towards not signing, and I am very sympathetic to the plight of innocents afflicted by war.

[loseyourname]

We call upon the U.S. President to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

You do realize Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon are all dead, correct?

[fisipavia]

You do realize Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon are all dead, correct?

The President is a representative of his country. You cannot said that what have been done earlier by another president is not the responsibility of the ones that follow him. When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents but they do have de responsibility to “correct” what has been done. In this case there is no way to correct what have been done but at least they can help these people. You cannot accept the presidency ignoring the effects of history, that is the effects that will have what you do and the effects of what is already done by others. So, in another words, when he speaks of the president's responsibilities he is talking about US responsibilities.

[loseyourname]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

[fisipavia]

That’s not my point. I am just saying that the US president does have a responsibility not matter what. After all the US army was the one that used Orange Agent. But answering to your question, yes… the Vietnam president have the responsibility to protect the well-being of Vietnam citizens and also the responsibility to demand justice for them , just as the US president have a responsibility with American citizens. I am not speaking of who is guilty, and by saying that US have a responsibility with those people I am not excluding other entities that also have the responsibility of helping them.

[loseyourname]

Is there any statute of limitations on how long a given nation's president owes reparations to the victims of actions taken by a former regime? Should the current president of Japan officially apologize and make payments to POW's who were tortured during WWII? Remember that this petition is asking for monetary compensation. The money that would be used it taxpayer money. Are the people paying taxes today responsible for actions taken by their nation's military several decades ago?

[JohnDubYa]

When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

[JohnDubYa]

He wrote this petition to call the supports and notice of people around the world.

To do what? Why is it that the answer to this question is so hard to come by?

[Adam]

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

So:
Germany should cease paying off Israel for WW2?
The USA should re-zone all native American reservations and such for development?
Australia should re-zone all native Australian reservations and such for development?
Swiss banks should tell Jewish families who were harmed during WW2 to go for a long walk of a short pier?
The USA should ignore the fact that Agent Orange still causes deformity and death in Vietnam?

[hiphys]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

1. We call Vietnam war the people 's war.The Vietnamese civilians fight for themselves, for their country not for VC.If U.S were under attack in their land someday, would the American cilvilian fight for their country ?
2. Agent Orange was sprayed from the air plane, so could it distinguish VC among the Vietnamese civilians ? Agent Orange is a mass-killer, not only one generation but also many others..

[JohnDubYa]

* Germany should cease paying off Israel for WW2?

Is the German president guilty for the Holocaust?

* The USA should re-zone all native American reservations and such for development?

Should George W. be charged for the killing of Chief Joseph?

Australia should re-zone all native Australian reservations and such for development?

Should John Howard be charged for the murder of aborigines?

The words "responsible" and "guilt" are getting thrown around here a lot, and usually foolishly.

[hiphys]

No reason could be given to explain why the US sprayed such a poisonous chemical in Vietnam.Until that time, Dioxine was the most poisonous chemical that people could synthetize.
The American Government always criticize other countries developing chemical weapon, nuclear weapon, but they are the only country that used both of them and still develops nuclear weapons.
Someday, in some where, will they use them again if people continue to forget what they did in Vietnam ?

[JohnDubYa]

Okay, hiphys, let's try another question:

Is the current leader of Vietnam responsible for the torture of American POWs?

[jcsd]

Is there any statute of limitations on how long a given nation's president owes reparations to the victims of actions taken by a former regime? Should the current president of Japan officially apologize and make payments to POW's who were tortured during WWII? Remember that this petition is asking for monetary compensation. The money that would be used it taxpayer money. Are the people paying taxes today responsible for actions taken by their nation's military several decades ago?

They have, our family received a substantial sum a couple of years ago from the Japanese government for my Grandfather's internment at Changi (one of the worst POW camps), I'm not sure if this is the cas efor everyone tho', as my Grandfather was a civilian.

Of course the US should compensate the Vitenamese, not just for Agent Orange, but their appalling conduct in general in that war.

[jcsd]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

What apoligist rubbish, the US attacked the general Vietnamese population indiscrimately whether they had good reason to believ ethey were VC or not.

Vietnam is one of the blackest episodes in US history.

[hiphys]

I really don't want to discuss who was wrong or who was right in the war.
Every war has itself complex problem.To some Americans,that's the war to free Vietnamese from Communists.But to Vietnameses, that's the war to defend their homeland from the conquerers and their hands.We have different point of view. But now,the first,we should try to solve the remains.
It has been a long time after the war, and their victims may die someday without any justice.
Some people say that they don't have any responsibility for what their previous generations had done, so had the agent orange affected children made any mistake before they were born ?
A few dacades may be long to a person, but to a country,to the history, it's not so long.

[loseyourname]

1. We call Vietnam war the people 's war.The Vietnamese civilians fight for themselves, for their country not for VC.If U.S were under attack in their land someday, would the American cilvilian fight for their country ?
2. Agent Orange was sprayed from the air plane, so could it distinguish VC among the Vietnamese civilians ? Agent Orange is a mass-killer, not only one generation but also many others..

1. If they chose to fight, shouldn't they put up with the consequences? As soon as you pick up a gun, you're no longer an innocent bystander, you're an enemy target.

2. Well, what is it? Were they civilians that were of no threat, or did they fight?

What apoligist rubbish, the US attacked the general Vietnamese population indiscrimately whether they had good reason to believe they were VC or not.

What is good reason? When you go into one town and half your platoon is taken out by grenades thrown by some innocent-looking woman on a rice paddy, what would you do when you got to the next village? What documentation do you have that the US forces were ordered to kill indiscriminately?

To some Americans,that's the war to free Vietnamese from Communists.But to Vietnameses, that's the war to defend their homeland from the conquerers and their hands.We have different point of view.

What conquerors? Did somebody actually tell you that the US had plans to annex Vietnam or are you just making this up as you go along?

Some people say that they don't have any responsibility for what their previous generations had done, so had the agent orange affected children made any mistake before they were born ?

I'm sorry, but charging the manufacturer is a bit like charging Jack Daniels when a kid is born with fetal alcohol syndrome. If you can show me documentation that the US military intentionally targeted innocent civilians, then I might agree that some reparations are in order.

[jcsd]

What is good reason? When you go into one town and half your platoon is taken out by grenades thrown by some innocent-looking woman on a rice paddy, what would you do when you got to the next village? What documentation do you have that the US forces were ordered to kill indiscriminately?

You are trying to justify some pretty horrendous massacres, I only have to point you to the most famous example - Mai Lai and this was hardly an isolated incident.

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[russ_watters]

You are trying to justify some pretty horrendous massacres, I only have to point you to the most famous example - Mai Lai and this was hardly an isolated incident.

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Mai Lai was a crime and those responsible should be (were?) punished. No one has said otherwise. But it is also a fact that the tactics of the enemy contributed to the incident. Had we only been fighting against uniformed soldiers, Mai Lai would not have happened.No reason could be given to explain why the US sprayed such a poisonous chemical in Vietnam.Until that time, Dioxine was the most poisonous chemical that people could synthetize.
The American Government always criticize other countries developing chemical weapon, nuclear weapon, but they are the only country that used both of them and still develops nuclear weapons. This has been said before, but Agent Orange was not a chemical weapon, it was a pesticide. That doesn't make it right to use it, but it is certainly also not right to mischaracterize it.

[JohnDubYa]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:

WHEREAS, while Japanese Government officials have expressed personal apologies and supported the payment of privately funded reparations to some victims, the Japanese Government has refused to fully acknowledge the crimes Imperial Japan committed during World War II and to provide reparations to its victims; and... (my emphasis)

http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention. Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

[fisipavia]

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

WHAT?!!!I don’t see the connection. I am sorry, but I really don’t care with whom the president sleeps. We are talking here about lifes that have been affected. And besides, if you read what I wrote in your quote you will notice that what I said was: “ When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents”

And as for how long I think should be given the compensations… the thing is that I’m not saying that they have to paid Vietnam forever… but the reality is that although the war is over, the problem caused by orange agent is still a thing of the present… Babies are still born today with deformities because of orange agent. What I am trying to say is that it has been zero days for this people since the effects of orange agent. Ahhh…I’m sorry if I am being redundant but I want to make my point clear. I must also say that I do not think that giving money is the solution in all cases, they are times when nothing can be done. But the fact is that these people have health problems and in many cases are unable to study and work, so financial help will be very useful for them and their families. About the taxes… I don’t think that you will loose a fortune by the money that will be given to them…how much can it be? $10 per year (as much)? That would not affect you…but to them the sum of this money can really have a positive effect. And besides… you annually pay a lot more for a lot of wars in which US participate in the name of justice and protecting humans that are being oppressed by a number of regimes…. so it is not a responsibility, the moral and logical thing to do to help those who are directed affected by your actions first?

I want to make clear that I don’t see money reparations as the solution but it can help. This is how I see it…
If a person fall because of you… you should say I am sorry and help him get up. In this case the person is still in the ground. Obviously, if the effects of an action are things of the past, there is nothing that you can do to help. …ahhh! I don’t know if I am expressing myself correctly! And about the question of the apology…this one is very important to me. It’s never to late for an apology…accepting that you did something wrong internationally, for me this is very important…this gives credibility and respect to any country that believes in protecting the human rights. Otherwise you will be “predicando la moral en carzoncillos” = “talking about moral in underwear” (ja,ja…I don’t know if that proverb can be translated). A good example of this (no matter if I am atheistic, catholic or what) is when the pope officially apologized by all the persecutions done by the Catholic Church…. By he admitting that it was wrong he is letting us know that this is no longer the position of the church and that things like that should never happen again. An apology serve to give a closure as well to help us remember because one can forgive but should never forget since if one forgets it is most probable to repeat the same error.

[loseyourname]

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Woa there, buddy. Who said the US could do no wrong? We're talking about whether or not civilians harmed by Agent Orange should be paid from US coffers. I'm sure the US did plenty of wrong. I will not, however, accept reparations as a reasonable request unless it can be shown that the military was ordered to intentionally harm innocent civilians.

[JohnDubYa]

Sorry fisi, I misread your post.

But does Vietnam owe certain citizens of our country reparations because it refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention and for the way it treated our POWs?

[fisipavia]

Sorry fisi, I misread your post.

But does Vietnam owe certain citizens of our country reparations because it refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention and for the way it treated our POWs?

You know what I have notice? and please don't take it wrong...but all of you are just making me question after question as you are waiting for me to contradict myself...I am just saying what I think and you can also say what you think... this question I would said that is actually a tricky one and answering it would involve our perceptions of how a war must be fighted... ????...By your personality I am thinking that you are in favor of the war in Iraq...if so that's ok, I am not here debating that...but the US didn't take in consideration the opinion of the ONU... you can think there is no wrong in doing so...so why do other country (in this case Vietnam) should take in consideration what have been said at the Geneva Convention. Another tricky aspect is the one with respect of the POWs. Afterall for some taking a life is the worse thing that can be do to a person and for other torture is worse...a war is a war and I am not saying which of these (death or torture) is worse...(personally I reject both)... but some people think, like looseyourname, that if you are willing to fight you should accept the consequences...I am just saying this because I want you to notice that the concepts of how opponent militars should be treated is a different story with its own complexity. But in this case we are talking of CIVILIANS
Don't attack me now by saying that it was right to not follow the laws of the Geneva convection...I am not saying that... what I want to say is that this would lead us into a debate that at the end will diverge from the original question (should the US make compensation to vietnam citizens affected by orange agent or at least make a public apology?) and we will end contradicting ourselves.
I am certainly not an expert in law and I am not presuming of that. Afterall, there are so many inmoral laws... I am just saying how I think a country should act.

[jcsd]

Mai Lai was a crime and those responsible should be (were?) punished. No one has said otherwise. But it is also a fact that the tactics of the enemy contributed to the incident. Had we only been fighting against uniformed soldiers, Mai Lai would not have happened. This has been said before, but Agent Orange was not a chemical weapon, it was a pesticide. That doesn't make it right to use it, but it is certainly also not right to mischaracterize it.

One of those responsible was given life imprisonment, but was released a few years after due to an outcry by the American public.

[jcsd]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:



http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention. Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

I am pretty sure it was the Japanese government (tho' it was actually not paid to him, as he had been dead for quite a few years), but as I say he was not a soldier but a civilian.

[JohnDubYa]

What if someone said that the US should only offer reparations to Vietnamese civilians if the Vietnamese government offers reparations to wronged US soldiers?

Essentially, my argument is that we should strive for some consistency in the way we deal with reparations. It is very convenient to ignore those atrocities committed against Americans and simply say that we should focus exclusively on our use of Agent Orange.

[Adam]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:

http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

Are you saying nobody has ever been killed with a pick or shovel?


By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention.
When invaded, why should they stick to the invader's rules?


Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.
Wrong.

[Adam]

Feel free to read: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

[JohnDubYa]

Are you saying nobody has ever been killed with a pick or shovel?

Irrelevant. Agent Orange was not used as a weapon, but as a defoliant, in the same manner that bulldozers are used to clear a field of fire. Agent Orange was no more a weapon than the barbed wire strung about defenses.

Now, if the bulldozer is used to attack an enemy, then the bulldozer is a weapon in that instance. IMO, such was not the case here.

By the way, I found some info on the Web that, if true, may affect our judgment regarding the US responsibilities in this matter:

In 1961, President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam asked the United States to conduct aerial herbicide spraying in his country. In August of that year, the South Vietnamese Air Force initiated herbicide operations with American help. The request by Diem launched a debate in the White House and the State and Defense Departments. On one side were those who viewed herbicides as an economical and efficient means of stripping the Viet Cong jungle of cover and food.

Others doubted the effectiveness of such a tactic and worried that such operations would both alienate friendly Vietnamese and expose the United States to charges of barbarism for waging a form of chemical warfare [<i>naturally, I disagree with this charge</i>].


Those who protest the use of Agent Orange as a chemical weapon (in their words) who also admire JFK have some serious explaining to do:


Both sides agreed upon the propaganda risks of the issue. In November 1961, President Kennedy approved the use of herbicides, but only as a limited experiment requiring South Vietnamese participation and the mission-by-mission approval of the United States Embassy, the Military Assistance Command Vietnam, and South Vietnam’s government.

Operation Ranch Hand, the designation for the program, began in January 1962. Gradually, limitations were relaxed; the spraying became more frequent and covered larger areas. The Air Force used C-47s, T-28s, B-26s, and C-123s equipped to spray herbicides for the defoliation missions. By the time Ranch Hand ended nine years later, some 18 million gallons of chemicals had been sprayed on an estimated 20 percent of South Vietnam’s jungles and 36 percent of its mangrove forests.

In other words, if Agent Orange is really a chemical weapon, and JFK authorized the use of this weapon, and this weapon killed thousands of Vietnamese, then could JFK not be considered a mass murderer?

Adam, what is your opinion of JFK if the information I provided here is true? Should JFK go down as a repugnant violator of crimes against humanity?


When invaded, why should they stick to the invader's rules?

We did not invade Vietnam, because Vietnam as a single country did not exist. We were invited to fight by the South Vietnam government.

And to answer your question, you should abide by the rules for the reason the rules were created in the first place.


My quote: Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

Wrong.

Nope, true. The Geneva Convention requires combatants to display their armed forces association prominently at all times when engaged in combat. Fighting in civilian clothes with no such identifiers is prohibited.

EDIT: I was mistaken. The Geneva Convention requires that in order to be treated as a prisoner of war, "soldiers" must abide by the above requirement.

[hiphys]

I want to tell you a story.
Nam was a three-year old boy. His family traveled to the sea.He could not swim.So he drank a lot of sea water.Sea seems to be too dangerous for him.When he came back home, he tried his best to take all the fishes out of water because he thought that fishes couldn’t live in water like him.As the result, all of the fishes died.
In my opinion, American has the same thinking as Nam. The American thought that they brought freedom to Vietnam . They sent troops, B52, tanks … to Vietnam to “help” Vietnameses.Actually, at that time, Americans were not welcomed. Americans used their ”American Democracy standard” to judge the world. Every country has self-determination. Others have to respect it.
That’s the reason why American troops was attacked everywhere in Vietnam and American troops became the Conquerer in Vietnamese eyes.
I have read many evidences which show that US government and American Chemical Companies did know the terrible effect of Agent Orange but they all ignored it. So, in this case, Agent Orange is not only herbicide but also a mass-killer weapon, actually.

[hiphys]

Woa there, buddy. Who said the US could do no wrong? We're talking about whether or not civilians harmed by Agent Orange should be paid from US coffers. I'm sure the US did plenty of wrong. I will not, however, accept reparations as a reasonable request unless it can be shown that the military was ordered to intentionally harm innocent civilians.
Agent Orange has killed not only Vietnamse soldiers but also their children. Vietnamese children aren't soldiers but they are still affected by Agent Orange.
Do you think there is a law that soldiers ' children have to wear uniform ??? :frown:

[Prometheus]

Agent Orange was not used as a weapon, but as a defoliant, in the same manner that bulldozers are used to clear a field of fire. Agent Orange was no more a weapon than the barbed wire strung about defenses.
If an arson incident causes the death of someone inside, would you contend that there was no murder because fire was not used as a weapon? Don't you think that there should be any repsonsibility at all for the extreme deadliness of Agent Orange?

In other words, if Agent Orange is really a chemical weapon, and JFK authorized the use of this weapon, and this weapon killed thousands of Vietnamese, then could JFK not be considered a mass murderer?
Are you saying that since Bush authorized the use of weapons that, however inadvertantly, killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, he shold be considered a mass murderer?

We did not invade Vietnam, because Vietnam as a single country did not exist. We were invited to fight by the South Vietnam government.
Can you provide evidence to support this? The Republic of Vietnam, also known as South Vietnam, was created by the partition of Vietnam in 1954 after the defeat of France at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. By this time, US aid to the French had reached $1.4 billion, which constituted almost 80% of France's budget for the war. I do not consider your statement valid.

And to answer your question, you should abide by the rules for the reason the rules were created in the first place.
Please elaborate. The U.S. invades a tiny country, with little justification other than fear of that country, and you claim that they should follow rules that they were not party to the creation of. By the way, I think that the U.S. did not become bound by the Geneva Convention until the signing was ratified by Congress in 1977.

[kat]

None of this tells me why I should put my name on a petition for a case that is already in court and proceeding in the system. Petitions aren't allowed as evidence of guilt or responsibility. The only purpose at this point of a petition would be to harvest names and emails to spam for??????

[JohnDubYa]

If an arson incident causes the death of someone inside, would you contend that there was no murder because fire was not used as a weapon? Don't you think that there should be any repsonsibility at all for the extreme deadliness of Agent Orange?

Okay, here goes: AGENT ORANGE WAS NOT USED FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF KILLING SOMEONE.

Are you saying that since Bush authorized the use of weapons that, however inadvertantly, killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, he shold be considered a mass murderer?

I'm not saying anything. I asked a question. Do you want to answer the question? What exactly is your opinion of JFK as a human being?


Can you provide evidence to support this? The Republic of Vietnam, also known as South Vietnam, was created by the partition of Vietnam in 1954 after the defeat of France at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. By this time, US aid to the French had reached $1.4 billion, which constituted almost 80% of France's budget for the war. I do not consider your statement valid.

What does all this have to do with an "invasion"?

Please elaborate. The U.S. invades a tiny country, with little justification other than fear of that country, and you claim that they should follow rules that they were not party to the creation of.

That's right, they should follow the rules for the same reason the rules were put in place.

Prometheus, are you going to try and disagree with every point I make? This is getting tiresome.

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, read the word "intentionally" in loseyourname's post. And if you really think freedom is not necessarily a good thing, say so. That is what you are suggesting.

Actually, at that time, Americans were not welcomed.

They were welcomed by some, not by others. Your post is therefore disingenous.

And it's FISH, not fishes.

[Prometheus]

They were welcomed by some, not by others. Your post is therefore disingenous.
You did not even consider his post. Your post is therefore disingenuous.

And it's FISH, not fishes.
Do you own a dictionary? Open it.

[hiphys]

I know that my English is bad. :frown:
It's really difficult for me to express all of my ideas in English.
As you know, many Agent Orange Victims can't express their sorrow.
I just want to do sth to help them.I'm a student, I don't have so much money to help them, and I think I can send some messages to friends all over the world.I think that's the best way I can do to help them.
You may sign the petition or not, it's your determination.
The Court may disagree with us and the Agent Orange Victims may not get any reparations from American Chemical companies.
We know that money can reduce the difficulties in their daily lives but money can't cure their sorrow. So money is not everthing.
A sorrow will be reduced if it's shared by other warm hearts.
So, please do sth if you feel it's necessary.
On behalf of Agent Orange victims and Vietnamese people, I would like to thank those who sign the petition and support us. :smile:
I want to repeat that we only accuse American chemical companies, not American people.

[phatmonky]

hiphys, your goals are admirable, even if I do disagree with you :)

[hiphys]

To Kat,
I know that your email address will be kept in secret if you want.
There are 3 secret options that you can choose when you sign this petition :
1. Your email will be kept in secret, just used to confirm your signature.
2. Your email will be kept in secret , just used to confirm your signature and kept in local system.
3. Your email will be shown to everyone.

[JohnDubYa]

We still don't know what our signature even accomplishes. I'm not against victims of Agent Orange getting their due, but what about our soldiers that were tortured in your prison camps? Are they not entitled as well?

[hiphys]

In your opinion, what is torture in prison ?
This is another topic about Vietnam war.I think we should discuss about this to make it clear.
This is the first time I hear about this.I'm not sure that I have enough information.So, show me some that you can.I will consider them unprejudicedly.
In Vietnam, there are many prisons that now become historical places.What I see there is terrible.Many Vietnamese war veterants have shown us the evidences about torture in South Vietnam 's prison.I believe them.
I know that many American POWs were returned to their motherland in good health. I believe that Ho Chi Minh performed the policy of humanity to POWs.
Nowadays, we still address the POWs and MIAs (personel missing in action).
Vietnam has even agreed in principle to allow American officials to seek information about US personnel listed as missing in the Vietnam war at its national archives centre.
There are over 10.000 missing Vietnamese soldiers, but we still help American to search for their missings.
What do you think about that ?

[JohnDubYa]

It looks like your problems in Vietnam may be continuing:

http://tassc.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=204

As for torture of American prisoners of war, just ask Sen. John McCain and Admiral James Stockdale.

"Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for 4 years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for 2 years, malnourished due to starvation diet and denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention."

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/sto0bio-1

[studentx]

they should have just lost the war and itd be Japan now ;)
"Quickest way to win a war, is to lose it" (i forgot who said this)

[russ_watters]

John McCain won't ever have normal use of his arms due to the number of times they were torn out of their sockets when he was a POW.

[Prometheus]

I'm not against victims of Agent Orange getting their due,
I do believe tht this is perhaps the first time that we have agreed about anything.

what about our soldiers that were tortured in your prison camps? Are they not entitled as well?
This is another question that deserves to be addressed, separately, in my opinion. I do not consider that the agent orange issue should be dependent upon a coincident resolution with this issue. Do you? Just offhand, what do you think they are entitled to, and who do you think is responsible for providing it?

[JohnDubYa]

I do not consider that the agent orange issue should be dependent upon a coincident resolution with this issue. Do you?

It is if you value consistency.

And you never did tell us your opinion of John F. Kennedy, who ordered the "chemical warfare" on the Vietnamese people.

[Prometheus]

It is if you value consistency.
From your response, it is clear that we must comletely disagree on what they are entitled to and who is repsonsible to provide it. I knew that our agreement could not last.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by consistency? You used the word, but I am not sure what you might mean by it.

[JohnDubYa]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by consistency? You used the word, but I am not sure what you might mean by it.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Atrocities were committed on both sides, so both sides are entitled to reparations.


And you still haven't told us your opinion of John F. Kennedy, who ordered the "chemical warfare" on the Vietnamese people. What's up with this?

[Prometheus]

Atrocities were committed on both sides, so both sides are entitled to reparations.
Are you suggesting that the atrocities committed by both sides are equivalent? In other words, both sides are basically equal to the degree that they committed atrocities, and neither is more culpable than the other? If one is more culpable, which one is it, and why, in your opinion?

[JohnDubYa]

You still haven't told us your opinion of John F. Kennedy, who ordered the "chemical warfare" on the Vietnamese people. Why can't you answer the question?

[Prometheus]

You still haven't told us your opinion of John F. Kennedy, who ordered the "chemical warfare" on the Vietnamese people. Why can't you answer the question?
I am not sure why you brought up this topic originally, and why you are asking me.

Do you expect me to make a simple answer and the question is over with, or are you hopeing to start up a major side topic?

I will say that I think that it was a major mistake to drop large amounts of agent orange on Vietnam, and I think extremely poorly of the decision to do so. Does this satisfy your question? I can't imagine that you would think that I could have any other opinion on the decision to drop agent orange, based on the comments that I have made so far.

Can you take a stab at my last question now?

[JohnDubYa]

I am not sure why you brought up this topic originally, and why you are asking me.

Do you expect me to make a simple answer and the question is over with, or are you hopeing to start up a major side topic?

I will say that I think that it was a major mistake to drop large amounts of agent orange on Vietnam, and I think extremely poorly of the decision to do so. Does this satisfy your question? I can't imagine that you would think that I could have any other opinion on the decision to drop agent orange, based on the comments that I have made so far.


C'mon Prometheus, answer the question!! You must have an opinion on JFK. He's the one that ordered Agent Orange used on the Vietnamese population. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF JFK?

I have another question: Should JFK be considered a war criminal?

(And quit using the passive "... of the decision to do so.")

[Prometheus]

C'mon Prometheus, answer the question!! You must have an opinion on JFK.
I do have an opinion on JFK. However, your question is hightly loaded, and comes with no context. As well, you have asked it more than a dozen times, even after I provided a response. I have no idea why you are asking this question, and to provide a simplistic answer would only beg more questions.

What is your purpose? Do you even have one, other than to harp?

He's the one that ordered Agent Orange used on the Vietnamese population.
I am against all of his actions that promoted action in Vietnam.

I have another question: Should JFK be considered a war criminal?
Where did this question come from? You are the one who makes such great stretches of the imagination. Are you trying to call Bush a war criminal? Is that our purpose? Is so, just say so.

(And quit using the passive "... of the decision to do so.")
Aren't you the joker. I tell you to quit asking idiotic questions, even once they have been asnwered. You ignore me, yet I should listen to your pathetic admonition on my use of grammar. Right. Just trust you, right?

[kat]

Had to check the thread title to see if this was still the thread about "Justice for Victims of Agent Orange" Justice for victims has nothing to do with POW's and War crimes. Monsato, DOW and co. are all global companies that knew what their products were capable of doing. Our law provides for victims to sue for compensation. Agent Orange was not just spread in Vietnam, it was spread in the United States as well as other areas. Victims in the U.S. also have a right to sue for compensation and many have in class action suites.
I don't know why you need to convolute the issue.

[JohnDubYa]

I do have an opinion on JFK. However, your question is hightly loaded, and comes with no context. As well, you have asked it more than a dozen times, even after I provided a response. I have no idea why you are asking this question, and to provide a simplistic answer would only beg more questions.

First of all, my question is not loaded. If I had asked "What is your opinion on JFK's criminal behavior, then it would have been loaded.

Oh, provide as sophisticated answer as you want. The question is completely open-ended.

So once again, what is your opinion on JFK?


What is your purpose? Do you even have one, other than to harp?

I want to expose possibly hypocrisy in blasting the US for what it did in Vietnam and yet refusing to condemn those that ordered the killing in the first place. We hear all the time about how Nixon did this, and Reagan did that. But what about JFK? Why does the Left continually protect his image? Maybe you can answer that question?

I am against all of his actions that promoted action in Vietnam.

Oh, you are against his ACTIONS. So you just merely "disagree" with him? So are you against HIM? What are your personal opinions of HIM as a PERSON?



Where did this question come from?

It came from me. I recently asked it. You should have little trouble answering it. After all, Bush supporters like myself are continually asked our opinions of him. (Unless the poster is Adam, we usually give such questions a serious response.)

If you asked me if Bush was a war criminal, I would answer it in a heartbeat. I would say "Hell no!" and I would support my argument by, for example, noting the defeat of Saddam Hussein. But you seem unwilling. Why is that?

Aren't you the joker. I tell you to quit asking idiotic questions, even once they have been asnwered. You ignore me, yet I should listen to your pathetic admonition on my use of grammar. Right. Just trust you, right?

It isn't just the grammar. Such phrases as "... the decision to do so" buries the subject, a way of weaseling out of having to admonish. When people say "mistakes were made," they are usually too embarassed to answer the question "by whom"?

[Prometheus]

So once again, what is your opinion on JFK?
Aren't you the silly one.

I want to expose possibly hypocrisy in blasting the US for what it did in Vietnam and yet refusing to condemn those that ordered the killing in the first place.
So, I was correct. You are a simplistic thinker, and you suspect that others are as simplistic as yourself. You question is as dumb as you are trying to be.

We hear all the time about how Nixon did this, and Reagan did that.
From you, perhaps. Never from me on this forum.

But what about JFK? Why does the Left continually protect his image? Maybe you can answer that question?
Maybe you can answer that question. Why do you think in such simplistic terms as left and right?

Oh, you are against his ACTIONS. So you just merely "disagree" with him? So are you against HIM? What are your personal opinions of HIM as a PERSON?
Go ahead and cry about it all you want. You are attempting to expose possible hyprocrisy, because you think that I am as simplistic a thinker as you are showing yourself to be.

After all, Bush supporters like myself are continually asked our opinions of him. (Unless the poster is Adam, we usually give such questions a serious response.)
Or unless it is you. Nice try.

If you asked me if Bush was a war criminal, I would answer it in a heartbeat. I would say "Hell no!" and I would support my argument by, for example, noting the defeat of Saddam Hussein.
You think that one proves the other, do you? How quaint of you. Quite the deep thinker.

It isn't just the grammar. Such phrases as "... the decision to do so" buries the subject, a way of weaseling out of having to admonish. When people say "mistakes were made," they are usually too embarassed to answer the question "by whom"?
Yes, that is your problem. You make generalizations such as this, based on your simplistic thought processes.

I see that you feel that your ability to harp on an irrelevant point, attempting to explore possible hypocracies that your simplistic thinking creates in your simplistic mind. This allows you to justifiy not answering a single question that I have asked you over the past few posts. How intelligent of you. You have found a way to feel superior while avoiding saying anything but asking people to show you quotes as though we could reach out and help you open your eyes.

[JohnDubYa]

Aren't you the silly one.

Just answer the question: What is your opinion of JFK?

[russ_watters]

I don't know why you need to convolute the issue. The issue gets convoluted by the facts that Vietnam isn't the US and the US was at war with Vietnam.

[kat]

The issue gets convoluted by the facts that Vietnam isn't the US and the US was at war with Vietnam.
The large chemical companies being sued aren't the U.S. either...

[hiphys]

if you really think freedom is not necessarily a good thing, say so. That is what you are suggesting.

Let ‘s see what US government did to bring freedom to Vietnam .

They created and supported a brutal puppet government in Vietnam. And this government broke the Geneve Accords by refusing a democratic election to reuninfy country. Ngo Dinh Diem was assigned to be the president of the South Vietnam by the US government. So, the Vietnamese even didn’t have the right to vote.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

During the war , the Diem ‘s government transported the guillotine to all the provinces in South Vietnam to decapitate the suspected VCs. They developed a “strategic hamlet” program to remove peasants from their traditional villages, often at gunpoint, and resettled them in new hamlets fortified .The villagers were forbidden to leave the hamlets.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

Johnson ordered ships to the North Vietnam’s territorial boundaries , and on August 4 both the Maddox and the USS Turner Joy reported that North Vietnamese patrol boats had fired on them. Johnson then ordered the first air strikes against North Vietnamese territory and went on television to seek approval from the U.S. public. (Subsequent congressional investigations would conclude that the August 4 attack almost certainly had never occurred.) The U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which effectively handed over war-making powers to Johnson until such time as "peace and security" had returned to Vietnam.

Is it the way that US government wanted to bring peace to Vietnam ?

“We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.”
Kerry, John F.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

In November 1969 reports began to be published that soldiers under the command of Lieutenant William Calley had rounded up hundreds of Vietnamese civilians in the hamlet of My Lai and then raped, tortured, and murdered them.

??? ??? !

“We got more trouble for killing a water-buffalo than we did for killing people. That was something I could never adjust to.”
Lee Childers ,U.S. soldier.

“The American war in Vietnam destroyed three ancient civilizations. They had survived through millennia everything history can do, which is always plenty, but they could not survive us, who understood nothing about them, nor valued them, and do not grieve for them.”

Martha Gellhorn (1908 - 1998) , U.S. journalist and author.

Please don’t use the word “freedom” in this case !

[hiphys]

John McCain won't ever have normal use of his arms due to the number of times they were torn out of their sockets when he was a POW.

This Vietnamese POW won't ever have normal use of his arms ,too.He even couldn't stand up !
Ya, CON DAO is not a prison, but the hell.
This picture was shown in Vietnam war museum.
Most of the pictures here were taken by US and international photographers.

See the attachment below.

[hiphys]

Admiral James Stockdale.

"Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for 4 years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for 2 years, malnourished due to starvation diet and denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention."



Ya, it seems that the US soldiers did it more influently !
See the picture below.

[hiphys]

American soldiers tied up persons to their tank and dragged them on roads to death.
See the picture below.

[hiphys]

American soldiers cut Vietnamese soldiers ' head.
I think that these US men wouldn't be devil if they had refused to fight this nonsense war.
see the picture below.

[hiphys]

Now, I decide to stop posting these shocking pics althought I have much.
We talk about the past but we should look forward the future.

It's easy to find reasons for a war. The US government gave many reasons to avocade their nonsense war but we now know that many of them are liars.
Please think much before supporting the war.

In World War II. Vietnam stood by America to fight against Japanese.Viet Minh helped many OSS agents and American pilots.

In 1945, when Vietnam declared independence to the world, President Ho Chi Minh sent letter to make ralationship with USA. We wanted to make friend with your country.Althought all OSS agents in Vietnam persuaded their President to make relationship with VN, but US president refused. Instead of making friends, he chose war.We missed too many chances to be friends.

Here some pics that we should see.
President HO Chi Minh, General Vo Nguyen Giap with OSS agents.
Posters appealed Vietnamese to help American Pilot.
Young boy Viet Duc is playing football with his "three" legs.
Present and future is in our hand.
Peace in our hand.

[JohnDubYa]

It's easy to find reasons for a war.

North Vietnam certainly found its reasons.

[JohnDubYa]

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.

[russ_watters]

It's easy to find reasons for a war. The US government gave many reasons to avocade their nonsense war but we now know that many of them are liars. By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it. I won't concede to the validity of the captions to any of those pictures without some real context.

Looking around for info on Con Dao, I don't see anyone saying it was an American prison - it was originally a French prison that was administered by South Vietnam during the war.

[Prometheus]

North Vietnam certainly found its reasons.
According to this logic, the north had no right to go to war with the south in the American Civil War.

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?
Everybody knows this one. The United States expressly did not sign the 4th Geneva Convention in order to be able to act as it wanted in Vietnam. Surely you knew this.

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.
The United States went half way around the world to bully a tiny country that did not want to be a colony of the French. When the Vietnamese dared resist the great United States, the U.S. dropped more tonnage of bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during WWII, and attempted to destroy their environment for a generation using such as Agent Orange.

You, however, claim that you are not going to believe that the Viet Cong were peaceful, since after all they put up such resistance to the United States. Do you think that the Viet Cong were more barbaric than the United States? If so, why?

[Prometheus]

By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it.
You go there! Tell him!

Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to make you a French colony. French colonialism is the greatest form of liberty that you deserve.

Don't forget to tell him that the United States loved the Vietnamese people, and only had their best interests in mind.

[JohnDubYa]

According to this logic, the north had no right to go to war with the south in the American Civil War.

Huh? hiphysi lamented that there are always reasons to go to war. I said that North Vietnam certainly found its reasons. Are you suggesting that it didn't?

The United States expressly did not sign the 4th Geneva Convention in order to be able to act as it wanted in Vietnam. Surely you knew this.

Are you talking about the 4th Geneva Convention, or the 1977 protocols? (Or are you talking about the Geneva Accord?)

* Convention I: for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field.
* Convention II: for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea.
* Convention III: relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
* Convention IV: relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.

These four Conventions have been signed by 190 states. The Additional Protocols of 1977 (AP I and II) have been signed by a majority of states, but by substantially fewer than the 1949 Conventions (161 and 156 states respectively of 191 UN member countries).However, they are still considered to have customary, if not moral, authority by many. The purpose of the two Additional Protocols was to clarify and strengthen the protection afforded to individuals, POWs and civilians in armed conflict.

Both the United States and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. The United States ratified the Conventions on 2 August 1955 and Iraq ascended on 14 February 1956. However, both countries are not signatories to the Additional Protocols of 1977."

http://www.ciss.ca/Comment_GulfWarPOWs.htm

...and attempted to destroy their environment for a generation using such as Agent Orange.

And who ordered the dumping of such horrific chemicals on such peace loving people. Surely he must be a monster, don't you agree? Who was that man, Prometheus?

[Prometheus]

And who ordered the dumping of such horrific chemicals on such peace loving people.
So, we agree that the dumping of agent orange was a horrific act by the United States. Do we also agree that the entire war was a horrific act?

Are you saying that you agree with me that the United States, and of course those in power who caused it to occur, commited atrocities in Vietnam and that the entire war was an American atrocity. Of course, those who were in power and promoted the war are most at fault.

[JohnDubYa]

You're not too swift at detecting sarcasm, are you Prometheus?

By the way, I figured you would jump all over my understanding of the Geneva Conventions. What gives?

[hiphys]

By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it. I won't concede to the validity of the captions to any of those pictures without some real context.



Oh, russ_watters ,you are sitting in America and say that our country remains dictatorship. :rolleyes:
It’s really funny ! Do you think so ? Please come to Vietnam to see what is happening here.
You said : “Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it.”
Please read what I had post before again to see what the US did to prevent it , ok ?
Let ‘s think about this : the Vietnamese dared to resist Chinese reigns , the French colonialists and the great United States , could the Vietnamese Communist Party still exist until now if they were dictatorship ? You shouldn’t discount us like that !
We all know that America is the super power of the world , but it doesn’t mean that America has the right to judge the world .Kenedy, Nixon , Bush… are American presidents, but not the world’s presidents.We have never voted for them.
Each country in the world, no matter how big it is, has its self-determination.Others should respect it.

Russ_watter, I think you are an American patriot, you love America, but in a wrong way.Many Americans love their country in other way.
I think that you know many of them :

Martin Luther King, Jr., said: “I opposed the war in Vietnam because I love America. I speak out against it, not in anger, but with anxiety and sorrow in my heart...This war is a blasphemy against all that America stands for.”

“In every other great war of this century, we have had the support of what is generally accepted as the decent opinion of mankind. We do not have that today.”
Eugene J. McCarthy (1916 - )
U.S. politician and writer, senator from Minnesota.
Referring to the Vietnam War (1959-1975).

“I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories [of] times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads … cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”
…………………………
…………………………
“In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.”

April 22, 1971, read before before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations
Kerry, John F. (1943- ), Democratic member of the United States Senate from Massachusetts

Russ_watter, you need some real context to concede to the validity of the captions to any of the pictures I gave , now you got it ! Or you still think that your presidential candidate told a lie ? :confused:
By the way, all of these quotations are from Microsoft Encarta 2004.Check it if you want.
Please don’t live a lie !

[hiphys]

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.

What should we do when American troops killed our cititzens ? Smile peacefully and come to shake their hand ? :mad:
Feel free, I'm afraid that you are going to believe nothing, even yourself.

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, if you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

By the way, hiphys, the real hero of the Left in this country are John F. Kennedy and LBJ. Do you have any quotes about the Vietnam War from these two? (Not a dig at you.)

One more thing, we need some information about the Geneva Convention. I asked Prometheus, but he seems to be quiet lately. Can you help him?

[kat]

hiphys...even Kerry has admitted that his statement that you quoted above was "over the top"...and of the 150 honest vet's he's taken statements from....many have been proven to be outright frauds, never even in vietnam and the rest were never actually substantiated. Maybe that's one quote you would be better off leaving out next time.

[hiphys]

Let’s talk about Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th president of the United States

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the World War II because of his bravery.( receiving a silver star for gallantry from General Douglas MacArthur.)

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the War on Poverty in your country.

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the War against racial discrimination in your country.

But :

“Johnson's stumbling leadership in foreign relations, especially in Vietnam, overshadowed his effective leadership in domestic affairs.”

By Robert Dallek, professor of history, Boston university, author of Lone Star Rising : Lyndon Johnson and his time, author of History Of Presidential Leadership (Microsoft Encarta 2004.)


“Both Johnson and his successor, Richard Milhous Nixon, used the power of the presidency to extend the Vietnam War and their control over affairs of state. Johnson gained sweeping authority to commit U.S. forces to defend South Vietnam after presenting inaccurate information to Congress about North Vietnamese bombing in the Gulf of Tonkin. Nixon, who pledged to bring peace in his 1968 presidential campaign, soon expanded the Vietnam War into neighboring Cambodia and Laos. At home he instituted wage and price controls. Nixon was the first president to establish an Office of Communications to control the flow of information in and out of the White House.”

By Stephen J. Wayne, professor of government at Georgetown University in Washington,
Understanding the Modern American Presidency, Microsoft Encarta 2004.


By 1968 antiwar sentiment affected electoral politics. Challenging Johnson for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota campaigned against the war. McCarthy roused fervent support among the young, and Vietnam swiftly became the major issue of the 1968 presidential race. Reconsidering his earlier policies, Johnson limited bombing in Southeast Asia and initiated peace talks with Hanoi and the NLF. After he was challenged by McCarthy in the New Hampshire primary, Johnson decided not to seek reelection and withdrew from the race. The president became a political casualty of the Vietnam War.
Contributed By:
Bill Turque , B.A ,freelance writer
Paul E. Johnson, B.A, M.A, Ph.D, professor of history, University of South Carolina.
Nancy Woloch , B.A, M.A, Ph.D, Adjunct Associate Professor of history ,Barnard College, Columbia University.
Microsoft Encatar 2004.

And
“Repeated predictions of victory from U.S. generals and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara had proved wrong, and as the U.S. commitment grew, so did opposition to the war and to Johnson personally. By 1967 Johnson began avoiding public appearances because of demonstrations and threats to his life.”
Microsoft Encatar 2004.
What happened to your real hero after his decision to throw your country into an unjust war ?
I suppose that Vietnam War is the darkest stage of his life.
Or you are trying to rewrite the US History ?
What do you think about these :

“It takes twenty years or more of peace to make a man, it takes only twenty seconds of war to destroy him.”
Baudouin I (1930 - 1993)
Belgian monarch.

Lyndon Johnson came into office seeking a Great Society in America and found instead an ugly little war that consumed him.

Tom Wicker (1926 - )
U.S. writer.
Referring to the Vietnam War.

[hiphys]

"Kennedy had begun to consider the possibility of withdrawal from Vietnam and had even ordered the removal of 1,000 advisers shortly before he was assassinated, but Johnson increased the number of U.S. advisers to 27,000 by mid-1964. Even though intelligence reports clearly stated that most of the support for the NLF came from the south, Johnson, like his predecessors, continued to insist that North Vietnam was orchestrating the southern rebellion."

I suppose that Kenedy might not have thrown his country in to this war if there hadn't been the assassination.
In Microsoft Encarta 2004 ,I found this :

Kennedy’s most significant foreign policy blunder came in his 1961 decision to send thousands of U.S. soldiers to Vietnam, sending the country along a path toward military defeat overseas and political turmoil at home.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[hiphys]

JohnDubya said :
"As for torture of American prisoners of war, just ask Sen. John McCain and Admiral James Stockdale.

"Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for 4 years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for 2 years, malnourished due to starvation diet and denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention."

Things are getting amusing !
You are going to accuse Senator John Kerry (perhaps,including John McCain ,because he supported Kerry in this problem) ,Martin Luther King,Senator Fulbright, Senator Eugene J. McCarthy , many American professors of History of liars.
You don't believe the pics taken by US reporters.
So Why do you think that I can believe in Admiral James Stockdale ,an unknown name to us?
Americans are famous for their logical thinking.So are you American ?
Do you still want to attach POW's torture in Agent Orange problem, JohnDubYa ?

[hiphys]

Awardwinning photo taken by Kyochi Sawada in Vietnam 1966.
The identity plates of the veichle have been censored.
Kyochi Sawada won the Pulitzer Prize in 1966 for his combat photography of the war in Vietnam.
It seems not the only one.
I give this just because of your demanding, russ_watters.

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

[Prometheus]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?
hiphys, dubya can play this game all month. He does not care about your point of view at all, but will pretend that he is waiting for your response to his irrelevant questions before he addresses your points. Remember, he loves the Vietnamese people and only cares about their freedom and best interests. If only Vietnam had become a French colony, they would have attained the freedom that they richly deserve.

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys can handle his own questions.

Speaking of avoiding questions, where is your treatise on the Geneva Convention?

[hiphys]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

Calm down, JohnDubya, hastiness is not good for our political dicussion.
I will answer all of your questions but not at once because of 2 reasons:
1. I always try to search for evidences to prove what I post.
2. My English is not very good, so it takes me much time.

[hiphys]

Ok, let’s talk about the state of religion in Vietnam.

. Vietnam is a multi-religion country comprising 6 major religions, namely Buddhism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Cao Dai, Hoa Hao with more than 20 millions followers accounting for one third of the population.
Freedom of belief and religion is respected and protected by the Constitution of Socialist Republic of Vietnam :

"In civil relations, the parties shall be equal and shall not invoke differences in ethnicity, gender, social status, economic situation, belief, religion, education and occupation as reasons to treat each other unequally"
(Article 8, the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995 ).

"Freedom of marriage between persons belonging to different ethnicities/nationalities and/or religions and between religious and non-religious individual shall be respected and protected by law"
(Article 35 , the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995)

"an individual has the right to work. Every person has the right to employment and is free to choose a job or occupation without being discriminated against on the grounds of his/her gender, ethnicity, social status, belief or religion"
(Article 45, the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995).

The right to freedom of belief and religion is also enshrined in Articles 81, 124 and 205a of the Penal Code, in Art. 4 of the Criminal Procedures Code and in Articles 9 and 16 of the Law on Education.

On April 19, 1999 the Government issued a new Decree (No. 26/1999/ND/CP) on religious activities to replace the previous one issued in March 1991. This Decree signifies the comprehensive policy of the State of Vietnam on freedom of belief and religions in the new context to protect the citizens' rights. At the same time, it prohibits all acts of violation against the right to freedom of belief and religion, as well as acts of abusing religions to conduct illegal activities against the State, causing public disorder and damaging national unity.

As part of the programs of exchanges between Vietnam's religious organizations and the outside world, many individuals and representatives of international religious organizations have visited Vietnam, such as the International Congregations, Bishop Councils of France, USA; Buddhism Organizations from Japan, ABCP, and representatives of foreign Protestant organizations ...

In Vietnam, any religious organization whose objective and charter, are in conformity with the Constitution and law shall be permitted to operate and protected by the law. Followers of such religions that have no institutionalised basis in the form of religious organizations are also free to practice their beliefs at recognised places of worship and at home (Decree 26/1999/ND-CP). Presently, the State has officially recognised the status of the Patronage Council and the Executive Council of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha; the Bishop Council of Vietnam Catholic Congregation, 9 Cao Dai Sacerdotal Councils, the Representative Board of Hoa Hao Buddhism, Federation of Vietnam Protestantism Associations (Northern area), the Executive Board of the Confederation of Vietnam Protestant Associations (Southern area) the Representative Board of the Islam Community of Ho Chi Minh City.

Religious organizations are entitled to open training school for the religious dignitaries and priests.

There are many Budist training school at advanced and intermediate levels with an increase from 22 in 1993 to 34 at present; about 6700 Buddhist monks and nuns have been trained in these institutions. Before 1975, there was only one Buddhist University, now there have been 3 Buddhism Institutes. So far, 235 monks and nuns sent abroad for training since 1992 and since 1996 there have been 167 persons. Catholics schools comprise of many grand seminaries to train Catholic priests. One grand seminary was opened in 1987, then three in 1988, one in 1991, one in 1994; up to now there are 6 schools altogether. 1,591 people have been studying in these seminaries, among whom 654 have ordained Catholic priests.

The Vatican can appoint Catholic priests after consulting with the State of Vietnam and receiving the latter's agreement. There are totally 37 bishops at present, with 5 appointed in 1999, 2 in 2000 and 3 in 2001.

Other religions also have training classes for dignitaries, in accordance with their forms of training.

The State creates favourable conditions for religious dignitaries and followers to study abroad, to conduct workshops and exchanges on religious affairs with other countries.

From 1993 to November 2001, there have been 1,457 religious dignitaries, priests and followers conducting studies abroad (long-term, short-term courses, Buddhism:664, Catholic:1,185, Protestantism: 33, Muslim:180), attending conferences, or conducting exchange tours on religions affairs in foreign countries. Some of these people have successfully obtained high degrees (MA and Doctorate) in their studies.



As you see, the freedom of religious belief was guaranteed by the Constitution of Viet Nam. My grandmother is a Buddhism follower, she has taught me a lot things in Buddhism prayer-book.The story “the boy and fishes” that I told you is one of them.

However, the legal guarantee did not extend to the use of religious platforms for political ends or to create social instability. Historically, there had been tension between Roman Catholicism, imported by European missionaries, and Buddhism, formerly the religion of the majority. Tension had also been created during the struggle for independence. At present, certain Buddhist groups were endeavouring with foreign support to create disturbances at home and abroad. There were limits to the tolerance that could be extended to such misuse of religious ends.
That seems easy for American to understand.
Will you tolerate the terrorists who attacked American in the name of Islam , JohnDubYa ?
Or are you supporting al-Qaeda ?
Or you believe that Bin Laden devotes himself for Islam ?
Think twice before answering these questions !

[hiphys]

hiphys, dubya can play this game all month. He does not care about your point of view at all, but will pretend that he is waiting for your response to his irrelevant questions before he addresses your points. Remember, he loves the Vietnamese people and only cares about their freedom and best interests. If only Vietnam had become a French colony, they would have attained the freedom that they richly deserve.

Ya, I know this, Prometheus.
I just think that the simpler thinking they are, the more patient we should be.
And I can see the agreement (althought they haven't admitted it officially) in their posting in some problems
I feel proud of my country and my people.So I'll try my best to show it to the world.
Thanks, Prometheus. :smile:

[JohnDubYa]

Let me get this straight. You don't know if your own country imprisons those that speak out against the country? You have to look it up?!?!

And what about the Unified Buddhist Church, hiphys? I notice you never mentioned them. Does your government treat members of the Unified Buddhist Church respectfully?

[JohnDubYa]

Hey Geneva Convention Man! Where is our treatise on the Geneva Convention? Or did you have it all wrong?

[Prometheus]

Speaking of avoiding questions,
Yes. So you see what I mean. Avoiding questions while harping on your irrelevancies is the best skill that you have been showing us. My, but you are good. If only you could respond to questions as well. Too difficult for you, I guess.

[JohnDubYa]

I will answer any question you have.

But first, where is that treatise on the Geneva Convention? What are your opinions of JFK?

Or, how about this question: Were you wrong when you stated that the US did not ratify the 4th Geneva Convention until after the Vietnam War?

[hiphys]

I wonder how old you are, JohnDubYa. Politics seems too difficult for you to understand.
I think that what I posted above is clear enough for you to answer your own questions.
Anyway, I ‘ll try to explain it into details.
Ya, I have never heard about the so called “Unified Buddhist Church” . Many Vietnameses haven’t ,either.
I asked my grandmother , a Buddhism follower, but she said she has never heard about it.
I was confused ,but now, I know the reason why.
Oh dear, See what I have found :
The so called “Unified Buddhist Church” was created in France by a monk who had left Vietnam for a few decades !
It is contributed by a minority group who had supported the South Vietnam puppet government (which doesn’t exist now )and are now trying to break the national harmony that we are trying to consolidate after the war !

So, in your opinion, are they considered to be the representative for the whole Vietnamese Buddhism followers ?

Is Al-qaeda considered to be the representative for the whole Islamites in the world ?

Is Bin Laden considered to be the senior leader of Islam ?

Does your government treat members of Al-qaeda respectfully ? :yuck:

If you think so…say so .
I wonder if I’m talking to an extreme Islamite ! :confused:
Take it easy, JohnDubYa !

Do you see the ridiculousness in the name “Unified Buddhist Church” ? It sounds funny !
Unify what ?

Since 1975, in the spirit of unity, the leaders of religious organizations in Vietnam have made great efforts to strengthen the unity within each religion, among all religions and between religions and the State.
Buddhism, a religion with two thousand years of development in Vietnam, convened a national congress in 1981 to unite all Buddhist organizations in the country.
The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha came into being in the Conference for Vietnamese Buddhist Unification (November 4-7, 1981) in Hanoi. During this conference, nine Buddhist sects and organisations voluntarily merged. The motivation for the conference resulted from four campaigns for Vietnam Buddhist Unification in our country in 1951, 1960, 1964 and 1980.
Being well aware of the harmony, peace and social equality by promoted through Buddha's teaching in service of the nation, the homeland and well-being is the stance of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations. With the spirit of co-operation, understanding and respect, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is longing for the exchange on issues related to the situation of religious and belief practices in Vietnam including the one of Vietnam Buddhism.

So, in your opinion, should they change the name “Unified Buddhist Church” to “Politically Self-Separating Buddhist Church” for easy-recognition ? :laughing: :laughing:

My friends from abroad (including from USA ) are surprised to find that most of churches and pagodas are renovated or newly built, a large number of people practice religions and these practitioners live in peace in communes and villages.
There is no place for discrimination and dispute.

As I said before, the legal guarantee did not extend to the use of religious platforms for political ends or to create social instability. At present, certain Buddhist groups such as so called “Unified Buddhist Church” were endeavouring with foreign support to create disturbances at home and abroad. There were limits to the tolerance that could be extended to such misuse of religious ends.
In the past, some people did split our country into 2 region : the North and the South.
And now, some of them still intent to use religion to split our country once more.

After such a long war, Vietnamese now yearn for peace, harmony to build up our country from the extreme damage of the war .
Perhaps, you refuse to give us a hand to repair the damage, but please stop obstructing us in our development by supporting these so called “monks”.
It may be harmful to our efforts to strengthen our two country relationship.
Is it clear enough for you to understand ?

[kat]

H. Res. 427 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:2:./temp/~c108RCAM1b::) Whereas Buddhism has a 2,000-year tradition in Vietnam and the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam (UBCV) is an heir to this tradition;

Whereas the Government of Vietnam in 1981 declared the UBCV, one of the largest religious denominations in the country, illegal, confiscated its temples, and persecuted its clergy for refusing to join the state-sponsored Buddhist organizations;

Whereas the Government of Vietnam has often imprisoned UBCV clergy and subjected them to other forms of persecution; the Patriarch of the UBCV, the 85-year-old Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang, has been detained and restrained for more than 2 decades in isolated areas of Vietnam;

Whereas the Vietnamese Government has held the Most Venerable Thich Quang Do, the Executive President of the UBCV and his deputy, the Venerable Thich Tue Sy, in various forms of detention since 1977;

Whereas the Very Venerable Thich Thien Minh, Supreme Counselor of the UBCV, was tortured to death in a reeducation camp in 1978;

Whereas many other leading UBCV figures, including Thich Thien Hanh, Thich Phuoc An, Thich Dong Tho, Thich Vien Dinh, Thich Thai Hoa, Thich Nguyen Ly, Thich Thanh Huyen, Thich Khong Tanh, Thich Phuoc Vien, Thich Hai Tang, Thich Dong Tho, Thich Nguyen Vuong, Thich Chi Mau, Thich Chi Thang, and Thich Thanh Quang have been detained, harassed, and under tight surveillance;

Whereas several members of the UBCV have fled to Cambodia to escape religious repression and harassment;

Whereas Pham Van Tuong, formerly known as Thich Tri Luc, disappeared from Cambodia in July 2002 after being given refugee status by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), and has since been discovered to be in custody in Vietnam, where he is reportedly charged with the vague crime of `fleeing abroad or defecting overseas with the intent to oppose the people's administration,' which carries a possible sentence of life imprisonment;

Whereas Vietnam has acceded to international covenants and treaties that prohibit the forced repatriation of UNHCR-recognized refugees;

Whereas Vietnam has acceded to international covenants and treaties that protect the right to faith, belief, and practice;

Whereas Vietnam's constitution protects the right of religious belief;

Whereas in a show of religious tolerance, the Vietnamese Government in April 2003 allowed the Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang, the Fourth Supreme Patriarch of the UBCV, to receive urgent medical care in Hanoi;

Whereas at that time, Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai met with Venerable Thich Huyen Quang and assured him that his and Venerable Thich Quang Do's detention were mistakes by local officials and that he hoped they would extend Buddhist forgiveness toward past actions of the government;

Whereas in June 2003, the Vietnamese Government ended the detention order against Venerable Thich Quang Do, the Executive President of the UBCV;

Whereas in September and October 2003, the UBCV held a meeting in Nguyen Thieu Pagoda in Binh Dinh province to discuss church affairs, choose a new leadership which had been vacant for a decade, and verify Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai's promise of a new era of understanding and respect;

Whereas Vietnamese authorities attempted to disrupt these gatherings by restricting the travel of monks from other provinces and then intimidating those attending;

Whereas on October 8, 2003, Vietnamese authorities initiated a tense standoff following the meeting, where police stopped a vehicle carrying the UBCV's new leadership and subsequently detained the eleven passengers;

Whereas Venerables Thich Huyen Quang and Thich Quang Do were taken to their respective pagodas where they have been effectively isolated and detained; four senior monks, the Venerable Thich Tue Sy, Thich Thanh Huyen, Thich Nguyen Ly, and the UBCV Supreme Patriarch's personal assistant, Venerable Thich Dong Tho, were immediately sentenced to 24 months of administrative detainment by written orders of the Ho Chi Minh City People's Committee, and three others, the Venerables Thich Thien Hanh, Thich Thai Hoa, and Thich Nguyen Vuong to 24 months administrative detainment by `oral' orders from various local authorities, in protest of which the Venerable Thich Thien Hanh initiated a hunger strike on October 19, 2003;

Whereas according to reports by the United States State Department, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, and the European Union, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam systematically limits the right of religious organizations to choose their own clergy;

Whereas according to these same reports, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam uses house arrest and long prison sentences to punish individuals for practicing their faith, as evidenced also by the jail sentences handed down to Father Nguyen Van Ly, his three relatives, Montagnard and Hmong Protestants, Cao Dai, and Hoa Hao Buddhists;

Whereas during the 107th Congress the House of Representatives passed H.R. 2833, the Vietnam Human Rights Act, on September 6, 2001, which noted the persecutions faced by various members of the UBCV over the past 25 years; and

Whereas because of systematic, egregious, and ongoing abuses of religious freedom, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom recommended that the President of the United States designate Vietnam as a `country of particular concern' under the provisions of the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) congratulates the new leadership of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam;

(2) urges the Government of Vietnam to respect the right of all independent religious organizations to meet, worship, operate, and practice their faith in accordance with Vietnam's own constitution and international covenants to which Vietnam is a signatory;

(3) urges the Government of Vietnam to restore freedom to all Vietnamese citizens imprisoned or under house arrest for practicing their faith or for advocating freedom of religion, especially the Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang and the Very Venerable Thich Quang Do;

(4) is committed to promoting religious freedom in Vietnam, and, in furtherance of this goal, urges the implementation of the recommendations of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom; and

(5) urges the United States Embassy in Vietnam to closely monitor cases of abuse of religious belief and practice, routinely visit detained clergy members, especially those in need of medical care, and report to the Congress on specific measures taken to protect and promote religious freedom in Vietnam.

[hiphys]

Vietnam Buddhist Sangha rejects US resolution



Hanoi, November 25, 2003

To: Mr Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America

On behalf of the President of the Executive Council of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I warmly greet the Mr Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America.

Dear Mr Speaker,

On November 19, 2003 the House of the Representatives of the United States of America passed the resolution H. Res. 427 with five points sponsored by some members of the House of Representatives, which seriously hurts our organisation. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations as well as our honorable, human dignity and legitimate rights. That is the very reason why we are raising our voice to protect the legitimate interests of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha.

The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha came into being in the Conference for Vietnamese Buddhist Unification (November 4-7, 1981) in Hanoi. During this conference, nine Buddhist sects and organisations including the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam merged. The motivation for the conference resulted from four campaigns for Vietnam Buddhist Unification in our country in 1951, 1960, 1964 and 1980.

In the opening speech for the 1981 Conference, the Most Venarable Thich Tri Thu - the President of the Dharma Propagation Council of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam and the head of the Board of Vietnamese Buddhist Unification - confirmed: "It is the first time during the 2000 year history of Vietnam Buddhism, we have organised a conference that gathers deputies from the Buddhist Sangha, branches and organisations from all over the country: Mahayana, Theravada, Buddhist Beggars Organisation, Buddhist Khmer Organisation, monks and nuns both old and young, in this impressive and splendid hall with a strong determination for achieving Vietnam Buddhist Unification."

Bring into full play the national tradition of the 2000 year history of Vietnam Buddhism, over the past 22 years since its foundation, the Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people have truly been living in solidarity and harmony and recorded many significant Buddhist achievements beneficial to our religion and our life, winning the hearts and confidence of Vietnamese Buddhist monks, nuns, lay people and all the Vietnamese people as well as foreigners. Therefore, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha has become a crucial factor in our international and national good relations.

However, in our Sangha, there remain some people who are not satisfied with the activities and organisation of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. But in fact, their views and opinions are not for the common interest of Vietnam Buddhism, but are rather concentrated on their personal and political interests. As a result, their activities have negatively affected the nation and religious solidarity, and violated the law of Vietnam. Their practices are absolutely contrary to the teaching of Buddha.

Therefore, the monks, nuns and lay people of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha strongly condemns the resolution H. Res. 427 passed by the House of the Representatives of the United States of America on recognising the "origination" and the "leaders" of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam, which came into existence in 1981 as a result of voluntary participation in the Conference for the Vietnamese Buddhist Unification in 1981 which resulted in the foundation of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The approval of the Resolution is a grave error creating a dangerous precedent for some ill-willed people who want to exploit the past to undermine Vietnamese national solidarity and the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha.

As the president of the Executive Council of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I request the Speaker of the House of the Representatives of the United States of America to act in his capacity prevent these and similar activities of some of the House members who extort the situation of the Vietnamese religious practices to intervene in the religious internal affairs of Vietnam in general and the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha in particular.

As a religious organisation, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha always observes the progress of the relations between the Socialist Republic of Vietnam and other nations including the United States of America. The relations between Vietnam and America has seen positive results, meeting the expectations of the two countries on the basis of "closing the past and looking to the future," as stated by the former President Mr Bill Clinton in his visit to Vietnam in 2000.

Being well aware of the harmony, peace and social equality by promoted through Buddha's teaching in service of the nation, the homeland and well-being is the stance of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations. With the spirit of co-operation, understanding and respect, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is longing for the exchange on issues related to the situation of religious and belief practices in Vietnam including the one of Vietnam Buddhism.

Once again, on behalf of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I want to send best regards to the Speaker of the House of Representative of the United States of America. I wish that, with your capacity and position, Mr Speaker you will take more positive steps to promote friendly relations between our two nations rather than undermine our mutual interests due to the negative activities of some ill-will members.


Yours sincerely,


President of the Executive Council
of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha
The Most Venerable Thich Tri Tinh

[hiphys]

Of Human Rights in Vietnam



This topic is not chosen at random in the wake of a related action taken early September by the US House of Representatives, an action in no way acceptable to the Government and people of Vietnam.

Human Rights are a cultural value of humankind, with enormous importance. As the Vietnamese often say, to lose one?s culture is to lose everything. Culture of such as the Vietnamese nation is cultivated with four thousand years of history, through fierce struggles with foreign invasion, natural calamity and within itself. Therefore, in the thought of the Vietnamese people Human Rights are the cultural strength, the requirement of every individual for the value of the right to live in an independent country, the right to development, the freedom to religion and belief. Strange to the Vietnamese is the idea of opposing individuals to the community and separating rights from obligations. Codified in the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, Human Rights are practiced in all political, economic, cultural and social life and are better and better guaranteed with the advancement of the country enriched by absorbing cultural quintessence of other nations in its intercourse with the world community. By the way, one can contemplate the fact that human rights standards provided in the 10 Amendments to the US Constitution only include civil and political rights while largely excluding economic, social and cultural rights. How these rights are provided depends on the characteristics and the right of the American State and people. For developing countries including Vietnam, however, the most imperative right is also the rights to life, economic and social development. Differences in history and culture necessarily result in differences in human rights perception and practicing. Different countries cannot be forced to have the same perception and a similar human rights model. Furthermore, the practicing of human rights is mere internal affairs of each country.

Those Americans having visited Vietnam saw with their own eyes that every Vietnamese enjoys a life made better and better with every passing day, particularly after the last 15 years of renovation, also known as Doi Moi. As the country had undergone decades of war and is developing from a backward agriculture-based economy, difficulties remain in every Vietnamese? material life. However, each Vietnamese feels comfortable with and proud of being a citizen of an independent Vietnam, having a safe life and the full right to stand for election, nominate and vote to administration at all levels, the right to have shelter, to employment, to free enterprise to amass riches for himself/herself and his/her family, etc.

Ho Chi Minh, the Vietnamese leader, a man of culture of the world as conferred upon by UNESCO, made a simple but fully humanistic statement about the right to be human being of the Vietnamese people: After gaining independence ?comes the task of how to assist every fellow country man and woman to be fed, clothed and educated?. The drinking and eating culture of the Vietnamese is connected closely with cultivating rice, eating rice or noodle soup, not pizza or hot-dog. With regard to learning, the Vietnamese now also use the Internet ? a wonderful product of mankind?s civilization. But they do not want to have contents in their ?learning and practicing? to be contrary to their fine traditional custom or detrimental to the Oriental ethics and living style, thus causing damage to the families ? the cells of the society.

In order to build a better life, the Vietnamese also understand they must rely basically on themselves. All foreign cooperation and assistance are valued and appreciated. But it would be an offense if someone tried to arbitrarily impose conditions for assistance level to Vietnam on ?progress? on the lifestyle and human rights of the Vietnamese. The right Human Rights, as now consented by the majority, must be for ?development for all.? Linking unreasonable human rights conditions to expansion of mutually beneficiary cooperation is a big mistake. That is even worse in the Vietnam-US relations. Given severe long-term consequences left by the war to our two nations, whenever can such way of thinking help conciliation and heal the war wounds.(1)

Some are concerned about religious freedom in Vietnam. Currently, about 20 million, or up to one-third of the population, follow one religion or another; the majority of the other two-thirds practice ancestral worship. The precious tradition preserved by the different Vietnamese ethnic people in history was to allow no religious discrimination or conflict, to maintain the coexistence among religious and non-religious people and among different religions as a natural reality and aspiration. If the State of Vietnam today suppressed religions, how could there exist up to 500 Protestant Churches. How could the Protestant Church of Vietnam just come to being? How could 6 seminaries be established from 1987 to 1994? How can Vietnam possibly be home to the second largest number of bishops in Asia (second only to the Philippines)? There are now three Buddhist Universities compared to just one before 1975. How could the Hoa Hao sect, the country?s fifth largest religion, celebrate its 60 anniversary in 1999? So on and so forth. As for abiding by the laws, is there a state on earth under which citizens, religious and non-religious, can live and act beyond its laws, beyond his/her nation?s fine custom and cultural traditions? A few law violators cannot be defended by criticizing a right policy and a vast positive reality. All citizens need to have the right to be treated equal before the Constitution and laws. What important in Vietnam is that no individual is arrested or jailed for religious faith.

What about freedom of expression? The Vietnamese are entitled to the right to democracy and freedom written in the Constitution, including the freedom of speech and expression, freedom of press, freedom of information, freedom of assembly, association and demonstration as regulated by the laws. Every effort made by the State is to enhance these rights. That is why democracy from the grassroots now prevails in the life in Vietnam. This form of democracy is rooted from age-old community-based life in Vietnamese, now the strength for the Vietnamese nation to live forever. It is being practiced through hundreds of daily newspapers, magazines and television networks; through their representative members to the National Assembly they themselves elected by direct vote. Ordinary people now have sufficient conditions to express their views over all political, economical and social issues of their country; criticize negative phenomena within the administration and corruption committed by bureaucratic officials; and have a voice in the decision and policy making process at all levels. Therefore, actions to abuse the right to freedom and democracy to contravene state interests and damage the legitimate rights and interests of organizations and citizens, like in other countries, must be subject to criminal judgment.

Ushering in a new century, all Vietnamese share a common wish for peace and stability so that they can focus on producing and building the country into a more and more prosperous one, and building a just, democratic and civilized society. Vietnam has stated its willingness to be a friend and reliable partner of all countries. Even though the Vietnamese are still poor compared to people in other countries, they have a fine cultural tradition of protecting and helping one another and are making every effort to carry out ?hunger eradication and poverty alleviation?. This policy and Vietnam?s cooperation with the United Nations (UN) in hunger eradication and poverty alleviation efforts have been praised by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) as exemplary for cooperation between the UN and the developing countries. The State has promulgated numerous preferential policies in education, health care, household production loan, giving priority to construction of social infrastructure projects in order to improve the life of ethnic minority groups. It is also doing its utmost to assist the poor, especially those in the mountainous Central and Northwestern Highlands. While many countries are still hesitant to do so, Vietnam has acceded to most of the major international conventions related to human rights, including all the conventions on protecting women and children, social elements that suffer ill-treatment and persecution the most. With enhanced prestige and sustained effort in regard to human rights, the election of Vietnam to the UN Human Rights Commission in 2000 is well deserved.

A senior US official in exclusive charge of Human Rights said, ?No country is perfect? with regard to Human Rights. But the Vietnamese people are quite proud of the achievements recorded in ever protecting and improving their rights. This reflects enormous efforts made to date by the State of Vietnam, a State with good nature from birth being of the people, by the people and for the people, given continued economic difficulties being solved domestically and the requirements from the world civilized life.

Mutual respect and understanding instead of imposition are the guidelines to address the human rights issue, which is so sensitive and important.



Embassy of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam in USA

[hiphys]

-------
(1)During the US war in Vietnam, known as the Vietnam War, nearly 3 million Vietnamese were killed, with about 300,000 still unaccounted for to date; more than 4 million injured. According to the US Department of Defense figures, from 1961 to 1971, up to 72 million litters of defoliants, consisting of 45 millions of Agent Orange, were sprayed over Vietnam, causing loss of 43 million cubic meters of merchandise wood. 26 years after the war ended, more than 2 million Vietnamese remain dioxin-affected.

[hiphys]

A veteran's letter to Congressman Christopher Smith
14 July 2004
In re: H. RES. 427; H. RES. 613; (S. RES. 343)
Dear Representative Christopher Smith,


I apologize for sending this to your office because I am not a member of your district. However, my purpose is to comment on two matters which reflect your membership on the Veteran’s Affairs Committee and the International Affairs Committee. The decisions made by these committees are far reaching and have great influence outside your district’s boundaries.


I am a combat veteran having served in Viet Nam 1968-1969. Thus, as a beneficiary of your work on behalf of veterans, I offer you my sincere gratitude. I hope your strong advocacy on behalf of veterans will continue.


My second point deals with your work in the international field. Specifically I wish to comment on your proposed resolutions chastising the Vietnamese government for human rights’ abuses.


I returned to Viet Nam for the first time in 1997 and have been returning every year since for a few months each year. While there, I try to enter the Viet culture as best I can. My friends are, for the great part, normal, everyday Vietnamese citizens. I usually base myself in Sai Gon/Ho Chi Minh City by renting an apartment and then I travel extensively within the country.


Initially I was agog at the different culture, language, food, etc. However, as the years have passed, I now find myself considering the Vietnamese a part of my family. And, I think, the feeling has been reciprocated by the Viet people. I was amazed at first but now I take the friendship and hospitality as a given.


I am a ‘tough’ old soldier and not given to shows of emotion but there are times when a tear almost comes to my eye when I think of the great damage that was done to Viet Nam during the war years.


The figures are staggering. Estimates of 3 million killed from a population of 30 million (1970). And an estimated 300,000 still MIA and unaccounted for.


I served honorably as a soldier but very early on during my tour I promised myself that I would do as little damage as possible to the Vietnamese people and their land. I felt I kept that promise as best I could given the circumstances I found myself in.


I am sorry for the lengthy ‘biography’ but I include for it is necessary to understand the next point I wish to make.


I have been greatly troubled, and bewildered, by annual attempts to ‘punish’ Viet Nam for what is termed ‘abuses of human rights’. Usually, religious freedom is an integral part of these accusations.


I have no special knowledge or information other than my experience and that which I have seen with my own eyes. And, after seven years of unhindered travel within Viet Nam, I can say that I have seen absolutely no government hindrance of any religious belief.


And Viet Nam, as our own country, has a plethora of beliefs.


In Sai Gon, I travel daily on a main thoroughfare and I am amazed at the number and variety of religious establishments that I see.


Nguyen Van Troi is the street I live on and travel so regularly. Within the space of about one mile (!) I have noticed and have seen frequented by worshippers a Baptist Church, numerous Pagodas, a huge Catholic Cathedral and even a small Mosque. All have members in numbers and all seem to be frequented by whomever so chooses.


In my many conversations with Viets in the cities, villages and hamlets throughout the country, I have never once heard the question of religion brought up unless it is I inquiring about different aspects of those religions. The practice of religious beliefs seems to be a strictly personal choice.


Viet Nam, both within the government as well as within the populace, seems to abide by a strict separation of state and religion. I cannot describe it in any other manner. From my vantage, admittedly of a somewhat limited nature, my observation is that Viets can practice religion wherever, whenever or however they choose.


I have studied the constitution and laws of Viet Nam and the basic human rights that we, as Americans, hold so dear are codified within these laws and were individually enunciated beginning with Ho Chi Minh’s Declaration of Independence on 2 September 1945.


I realize that we have received reports of disturbances in the Central Highlands where the ethnic tribes ( I believe 54 in number) exist. I have travelled to many of these areas including Dac Lac, Gia Lai, Kon Tum and Binh Phuoc Provinces. In the last mentioned there is a sizable ethnic population of S’Tieng people.


In 2001, I financed and helped to construct a cultural house/library/community center in the district of Bu Dang where the S’Tieng comprises roughly 25% to 33% of the population.


In these areas I have had unfettered access to contact with these peoples and I have never, not once, heard any indication or mention of a problem with religious belief. Most of the ethnic peoples practice a form of animism.


As I mentioned I have no special knowledge or intelligence but I can make an educated guess concerning the very sporadic and limited in scope problems in the Highlands of Viet Nam.


I strongly believe the Vietnamese government is defending the tenets of their Constitution and, in truth, their’homeland’ if there is an attempt to foment disturbances of civil order within their territory.


There is a group based in the US that is known by the acronym of FULRO ( see Montagnard Foundation & Transnational Radical Party) and it seems to be calling for some sort of separation of the ethnic peoples from the body politic of Viet Nam. A leader of this group, a Ksor Kok, is actually calling for a state within the boundaries of the sovereign nation of Viet Nam! He is espousing such to be called the ‘Degar State’.


If my feelings are correct then I think you would agree that, if such were to happen within our own borders, we would defend the sanctity of our ‘homeland’ and our Constitution. I feel strongly that the ‘abuse of human rights’ issue is truly not the issue.


The issue is one of national sovereignty and adherence to the written law of the Vietnamese people.


I beseech you, Sir, to rethink the ramifications of these periodic proposals aimed at Viet Nam’s conduct of its internal affairs. I feel certain that this is not your intention but these accusations greatly wound the Vietnamese people and they greatly wound me.


It is ironic in some ways that after such a horrible introduction to Viet Nam as a soldier wielding a weapon, I now consider the Vietnamese a part of my family and I know I will never consciously do anything to harm their independence.


The wars cost Viet Nam greatly in personal suffering and loss and in the physical toll it took on their land. However, I think the greater damage was done to our own nation in a psychological sense.


The Vietnamese people are extremely proud of their nation and their culture. Just as we are of ours! I believe they yearn for a ‘true’ friendship with the US. A friendship based on mutual respect. And I yearn for the day my government will offer that ‘true’ hand of friendship to the Vietnamese people. I feel I could guarantee that we would have a strong, friendly and, equal, ally.


And I am certain if such were to take place, it would go a long way towards erasing that national ‘PTSD’ that we all still suffer from.


Again, I feel I must apologize for this letter and its length but it is a matter that weighs upon me a great deal.


Sincerely,


William J. Kelly Jr.

PO Box 307; Stockholm, NJ 07460; 973-209-2612; E: bilikelly@hotmail.com

PS: I have included some photos and clippings that might be of interest. If you or any member of your staff would care to discuss anything that I have mentioned, I would be honored to meet with whomever, whenever, wherever

[hiphys]

An American Veteran's Letter to Senator Brownback




SENATOR BROWNBACK:

Having lived and worked in Vietnam for nine years as representative of two American veterans organizations -- first the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation, and now the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, both supporting humanitarian relief projects here (although I am now commenting as an American citizen and a U.S. veteran, not on behalf of either organization) -- I can say that I have never witnessed any effort on the part of the government or any institution to suppress the constitutional right of the Vietnamese people to practice the religion of their choice. And the right to not practice religion is also enshrined in their constitution, to protect those who might otherwise feel pressured by society or institutions to take part in organized religion.

I have read many of the reports coming out of the U.S. alleging cases where the Vietnamese government has interfered with or suppressed the actions of certain individuals who said they were acting on behalf of the church or some other religious group. The number of such cases is quite small, given Vietnam's population of 80 million (probably no more than two dozen that I have seen reported), and the actions of some of those charged or tried and, in some cases, sentenced, are questionable when reviewed objectively in the context of Vietnam's troubled history of war and major destruction, and in the context of the Vietnamese people's clear determination to maintain a long period of peace and stability based on mutual respect and the social and cultural traditions of harmony and disapproval of activities of individuals which do not benefit the larger community and the national interest. That is clear from hundreds of discussions and conversations I have had with Vietnamese citizens, who are often quite critical of the government or the party or other authority. But when asked what alternative they seek, inevitably they reply that they're not looking for major change, they simply want to see continued progress, opportunity, and stability, and they say, "We just need to do better" but the country should continue in the same direction.

You are familiar with the Pew Foundation global survey conducted last year under the chairmanship of Madelaine Albright, which found that of all countries in the world, Vietnam ranked number one in the level of satisfaction among the population with the direction in which the country is headed.

As I told you at the American Chamber of Commerce luncheon in Hanoi, I have a staff member who is Catholic and whose family has been Catholic since his grandmother converted under the French in 1919. When I asked him if his family had ever felt any scrutiny or pressure from the government regarding their active participation in the church, he was surprised and said flatly that such a thing had never happened, and he was unaware of anyone else who had experienced such. I have been told the same thing by many others -- Buddhists, Cao Dai, Cham -- and I do not know of any foreign NGOs working in Vietnam, many religious based, who have experienced or witnessed any harrassment from the Vietnamese government as long as they were engaged in humanitarian activities and not proselytizing on behalf of their faith.

One only needs to drive around the country, north, south, central, to see huge numbers of churches and pagodas, big and small, under renovation or construction or built within the last 10 years or so, open to millions of Vietnamese actively practicing the religion of their choice.

Most of the stories which are reported in the U.S. of various questionable incidents in Vietnam alleging interference with religion, which receive wide attention in America, I cannot verify or deny. (Some I do know are untrue or exaggerated and manipulated, however.) But I have learned that much information about Vietnam coming from the U.S. is deliberately inflammatory and often inaccurate.

Vietnam is not perfect, and the government certainly makes mistakes. Sometimes even with enlightened and progressive policies in place at the national level, it is possible or even likely that at the local officials do not always adhere to the letter and the spirit of the law. (I'm from Georgia, and I remember well in years past local sheriffs scoffing at some law or court ruling and insisting, "I don't care what the governor in Atlanta says -- this is my territory!" It is quite possible that some local officials or law enforcement officers in Vietnam are not always in total compliance with law, regulations, or accepted social custom either.)

However, in general almost all Americans and other foreigners living here would give Vietnam very high marks for remarkable progress in religious freedoms, human rights, and democratic participation of citizens in decisions at every level, especially in the last decade or so of impressive economic growth and political stability. The situation will continue to improve as long as we foreigners maintain a constructive and open dialogue with the Vietnamese, rightly applauding their dramatic steps toward reform and openness, and pointing out areas in which they can still improve -- but in a way that is not judgemental or threatening. The Vietnamese are among the most polite and considerate people in the world, but they are also proud and they resent arrogance and intrusiveness on the part of outsiders. That is not surprising, considering the major traumas they lived through under centuries of outside domination and war.

I'm sure on your recent visit here the Vietnamese made it clear that you and other members of Congress, and ordinary American citizens, are always welcome here and they will help any visit to be enjoyable and instructive. But you can't accomplish that in a few days. And neither can authors of reports critical of the Vietnamese who rely only on information they obtain outside of the country.

I'm sure every American citizen living and working in Vietnam would also be happy to help in any way that would be useful, particularly in introducing you and others to the people of Vietnam -- which may be a slightly different prism that what can be viewed only through meetings with government officials.

The improving relationship between the U.S. and Vietnam should continue and grow and, based on mutual trust and respect, we can accomplish much toward improving virtually every aspect of people's lives in Vietnam, including religious freedoms and human rights, even if defined only through the standards which we in the U.S. expect and sometimes attempt to impose on others.

If there is any way I can be of help in learning more, providing more information, and building better understanding between our two countries, I stand ready to do so.

Sincerely,

CHARLES M. (CHUCK) SEARCY
U.S. Army 1966-1969
519th Military Intelligence Battalion, Saigon, June 1967-1968

CHUCK SEARCY, Vietnam Representative
Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) / Vietnam Enterprise Group (VEG)
25 Truong Han Sieu / Hanoi, Vietnam
844 943 8061 tel / 844 943 8062 fax / 849 03 420 769 mobile chucksearcy@yahoo.com


I hope that this gives some helpful information for you.
See things more impartially !

[hiphys]

Human Rights 02/18/2004
War Veteran: Vietnam Is Moving In The Right Direction


Statement of Jaime Vazquez, Director of Veterans Affairs, Jersey City, N.J. To The Senate Sub-Committe on East Asia and Pacific Affairs

Washington, DC
Thursday, February 12, 2004

Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committe, Ladies and Gentlemen,

First, allow me to thank you for the opportunity of addressing you today on the very important issue of the relationships between the United States and the country of Vietnam.

My name is Jaime Vazquez. I am Director of Veterans Affairs for the City of Jersey City, New Jersey. My primary responsibilty is to assist veterans of all service periods to apply for and receive entitled benefits from the Veterans Administration and other agencies responsible for extending these benefits.

I am a combat wounded veteran of the Vietnam War. I served in Vietnam from October 17, 1967 until November 30, 1968 where I was a member of Delta Company, 1st Battalion, 1st Marines. During my tour in Vietnam, I was seriously wounded on April 21, 1968 on Hill 881 just west of the firebase at Khe Sanh. Upon returning from Vietnam and being discharged from the military, I was designated as service connected disabled by the Veterans Admininstration.

Throughout the years, I had thought about returning to Vietnam, but I never took the opportunity. During 2002, I had the opportunity of meeting representatives of the Veterans Association of Vietnam at the United Nations in New York. The meeting with the representatives of V.A.V.N. was warm, cordial and enlightening. We had open and free discussions about the war and our participation in it. There was a liberating affect to this dialogue, almost like a weight had been taken off my shoulders. There was the commonality that we were veterans of the same war. We had suffered the same slings and arrows of that war and that now we were middle-aged men and women who had to learn from the past experience of war to be able to make the future better.

The subsequent meeting with representatives of the V.A.V.N. resulted in an invitation to return to visit Vietnam and to witness the changes and the development that Vietnam had undergone during the past thirty-five years.

Like most Vietnam Veterans I had concerns, thoughts and feelings about my return. How would I be received? How would I be treated? What would be the attitude of the Vietnamese people to returning American Veterans? During the war, America lost almost 60,000 of her sons, but Vietnam lost more than two million. Would there be resentment, anger and hate? Only my return would answer these questions.

My flight arrived in Hanoi on August 14, 2003. As I awaited, my luggage and the packages of 250 lbs. of medical supplies that I had brought for the children's hospital at Friendship Village, I was approached by one of the customs officials that was nearby. We engaged in conversation. When I informed him that I was an American Veteran of the war who was returning to Vietnam for the first time since the war, he showed genuine interest and treated me with the highest sense of courtesy and respect.

The following day, I met with representatives of the V.A.V.N. at their headquarters in Hanoi. Lt. Gen. Thuy is the current President of the V.A.V.N. This organization represents more than 1.7 million Vietnamese Veterans of the war with the United States. The meeting was warm, cordial and informative.

There are many parallels between the experience suffered by both sides during the war. Veterans from both sides suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. All people are affected by war. Veterans and their off-spring suffer from the affects of Agent Orange.

As General Thuy mentioned, we are veterans of the same war who are now in our middle and late years. We must learn from our common experience of war in order to prevent this in the future and to help the current generation to live and to prosper in peace.

There are many new things that I learned from the Vietnamese people during my return. Vietnam has a population of 80 million, fifty-five percent of which were born after the war. There seems to be a disconnect with regards to the war among the Vietnamese population as compared to the American population. Part of the problem has to do with the American perception of Vietnam. The only time we see the word Vietnam it is always accompanied by the word war. Vietnam is not a war. Vietnam is a country. A society. A people. A culture.

In regards to the question of religious freedom, I can only present my observations. On Sunday, August 17, 2003 at the Roman Catholic Cathedral of St. Joseph's located in the center of Hanoi, I arrived about an hour before the mass. By the time the mass began, the Cathedral was filled to capacity with scores of parishoners spilling out onto the side street. This mass was attended by more than 1,000 people. In the cities of Hanoi, Danang and Ho-Chi- Minh City, I was able to visit a number of Catholic, Buddhist and Muslim churches, temples and religious sites. On television the Buddhist even have a commercial that urges followers to come and pray at their temple. On Sunday, August 24, 2003, I was able to attend mass at the cathedral of Notre Dame located in the center of Ho-Chi-Minh City. Here was a repeat of the previous Sundays experience. The Cathedral was filled to over capacity and the masses were conducted without any interference or hindrance. It is my understanding, that during the past year or so, more than 100 churches have been repaired or rehabilitated and returned for the use of the church.

In addition, I understand that there are more than 11, 000 Catholic Priests, 33,000 Buddhist Monks, more than 10,000 Buddhist Nuns, thousands of Muslims and thousands of functionaries representing different religious denominations who practice religious freedom within the country of Vietnam.

In regards to economic development and freedom before Vietnam liberalized its laws on private corporate ownership there were about 15,000 family owned businesses in Vietnam. Today, as a result of new rules and regulations there are over 80,000 privately owned businesses. I visited many of the markets and business areas in Hanoi, Danang and Ho-Chi-Minh City. What I witnessed can be called nothing else than a thriving market economy. I saw hundreds of businesses selling and buying. I saw business competition as one may witness on the streets of New York. I also noticed within this thriving economy an abundace of flower shops, which to me was an indication of the growing economic and social affluence of the Vietnamese. Flower shops are a luxury and their abundance within the society are an indication of the development of that society.

Vietnam is moving in the right direction with regards to its religious and economic freedoms. Maybe not as fast as some would like to see, but moving in the right direction nonetheless. After the end of the war with Vietnam the United States did nothing to help Vietnam recover from the devastating damage caused to the basic infrastructure of that country by the war. The United States needs to do much more to assist Vietnam in continuing the positive changes that they have instituted in recent years. This year more than one hundred thousand Vietnamese exiles or "viet-kieu" returned to Vietnam during the "Tet" New Years Holidays. This is a clear indication that the Vietnmese government has changed its policies in conformity with what might be internationally acceptable conduct.

Political change will come to Vietnam as they become more involved within the world economic and political community. Political change will come as it has to many other countries including America with the social and economic development of the people. The more economically free that Vietnamese people become the more political change will come.

During the Vietnam War we dropped more bombs in Vietnam then we did during all of World War II. If we want the Vietnamese to change, they must be treated with respect and equality. If we learn anything from the Vietnam War is that we cannot bomb people into submission and we cannot economically or politically subjugate them into acting the way we would prefer.

We must work with the Vietnamese as partners if we are to accerlate positive change in this grand and proud country. From my experience, the current legislation being considered by the Congress would have a negative impact on the relationships between our country and change which have been instituted by the Vietnamese.

Finally, let me say that my experience in Vietnam as a returning veteran was an epiphany from the day I arrived until my departure. I was treated with the highest sense of courtesy, respect and kindness by all of the people that I met. From the highest government executives to the taxi drivers and vendors in the markets. A common desire to have good relationships with the United States was expressed. I expect to return to Vietnam and I would urge other Vietnam Veterans and U.S. cictizens to go to Vietnam and witness for themselvesf the realty that Vietnam is today. Vietnam is moving in the right direction. We should work and cooperate with them in order for them to achieve a better quality of life for the Vietnamese people.

For further information contact Jaime Vazquez at (201) 832-1395 or (201) 659-7664
E-mail: marinevet52@aol.com or jaime@jcnj.org



I hope that you all should think much about this.
Please don't weaken our two country friendship which is being consolidated by many of us.
It is not the time to open another COLD WAR !

[hiphys]

Human Rights 02/11/2004
Facts about religions in Vietnam


According to incomplete statistics, up to 19 million Vietnamese practice one religion or another, making up of about a quarter of the 80 million population. Among them, there are nearly 57 thousand in the clergy and over 10 thousand students. There are over 10 thousand religious groupings that are in control of nearly 23 thousand worshipping places throughout the country. Besides, there are over two thousand entities conducting charity operations.

1. Buddhism:

As of 2003, 9,038,064 or about 12% of the population follow Buddhism, including about 1.2 million from the Khmer ethnic group.

There are about 33 thousand in the Buddhist clergy (including over 21 thousands from the Northern denomination, over 9 thousand in the Southern and Khmer denomination, with over 9 thousand dignitaries.

There are about 14,600 worshipping places for Buddhism throughout the country.

With regard to Buddhist training, there are 3 Buddhist Institutes with over one thousand students currently enrolled; 4 Buddhist college classes with 842 students; 30 intermediate level schools with over 3,000 students; 37 primary level classes with 2,500 students. In all these, there are up to 2,500 Khmer students. Among them, there are about 2,500 Khmers are currently enrolled in advanced, intermediate and primary Buddhist Pali classes.

There are 1,076 Buddhist charities in the country and 820 groupings of Buddhist households.

2. Catholicism:

There are 5,303,445 Catholics in the country, making up of 7.2% of the population.

- Catholic clergy: there are 2 Cardinals (Jean-Baptist Pham Minh Man of Ho Chi Minh City was ordained Cardinal by Vatican last year), 1 Archbishops, 36 Bishops, 2,410 priests, 11,147 parish priests; 4,390 students in grand seminaries and seminaries.

- There are 6,033 worshipping places for Catholics in the country’s 3 Archdioceses, 25 dioceses, and over 2 thousand parishes.

- There are 6 grand seminaries with 1,044 currently enrolled students and over one thousand charitable entities.

- There are 9,531 Catholic groupings in the country.

3. Protestantism:

There are about 622,000 thousand Protestants in Vietnam, compared to 200,000 in pre-1975 period. Among them, there are 872 pastors and missionary workers, compared to 371 in pre-1975 period.

There are 445 churches or praying houses, compared to 380 in pre-1975 period.

In the Central Highland alone, there are about 350,000 Protestants that practice 8 different Protestant factions. There are 79 pastors and part-time pastors, 96 Protestant missionary workers and 380 volunteer missionary.

24 branches of the Evangelical Church of Vietnam have been officially recognized, including 8 branches recognized during the 2003 Christmas season.

4. Cao Dai:

Nearly 2.3 million follow this indigenous religion which has nearly 1300 Grand Temples and temples and over 7,100 in the clergy.

5. Hoa Hao Buddhism:

Nearly 1.25 million follow this religion (or about 1.5% of the population) which has 522 large and small establishments under the management of 535 clergymen and clergywomen.

6. Islam:

This religion has about 65 thousands followers, with 699 in the clergy and 77 worshipping places across the country.

[JohnDubYa]

I know why you have never heard of the Unified Buddhist Church, hiphys. They're in jail.

And you still haven't answered my question about the Vietnamese' ability to express criticism of the government. Why not? Can you write an editorial in the local newspaper criticizing the government, hiphys?

I love it... state-sponsored Buddhist organization.

[hiphys]

Do you really want to know what the Vietnameses are thinking now ?
Do you really want to know what I am thinking now ?
Do you really want to know what the Vietnameses are yearning for now ?
Do you want to know why I have spent most of my freetime searching for documents to speak out here ?

Do you think that you are really not obsessed by the US ‘s failure in Vietnam
Do you think that you are really trying to bring good things to Vietnam ?
Do you think that you are really trying to strengthen our two country relationship ?

Answer them sincerely,please.
And you’ll see that why you always try to search for bad news (but not exactly) about Vietnam.

“ There was a man who has a wonderful race horse.That horse has won all the race held in the world.But, the horse still hasn’t its own name.The man held a competition to name the horse. And the winning name is “BAD NEWS”.”

I suppose that many of you have heard about this story. But what have we learned from this simple story ?

We really welcome you all to Vietnam.Coming here, to understand Vietnam and its people.
I were born after the Vietnam war,but now I still see its terrible damage in our homeland.
Many people lost their family’s members in the war.
Many people still carry their wounds from the war
But we have never been taught to feel vindictive hatred for American.
I suppose that No American has been attacked in Vietnam since 1975 in our country.
Is it true?.And you may know why.

After reunification, we all want to build up our country.That is our great dream !
But some people who lost their standing after the war has denied to accept the truth.
They don’t want to understand that it’s time for us to build up our country .
They want war ,again !
They said that they are trying to bring freedom and democracy to Vietnam, but all they have done are just for their selfish purposes.
We all consider them the betrayers to their homeland, to their people.
They have done nothing for their country ,but have obstructed their country to build an equitable, democratic, civilized society !
Believe me, a Vietnamese from Vietnam !
And I believe that the most of Vietnameses agree with me.
JohnDubYa, May I consider you as a friend of Vietnameses ?
Or someone else ?
You seem interested in Vietnam. But why ?
I need your answer to continue.So,answer it sincerely, please.
I just feel disappointed because I suppose that you are really don't care whatever I say. :frown:
You always make questions, and I have answered them sincerely from Agent Orange problem,POW torture, LBJ ,to Human right...
But you always change the topic without admiting the previous one.
Sincerely, do you take care of what I have said.I give you a lot of information (most of them that came from Americans , not from Vietnameses),enough for your judgement.But it seems that you ignore it all.
Again, may I consider you as a friend of Vietnameses ?If you really want to help Vietnam,want to be a friend of Vietnam, I will try my best to answer your questions although it take me much time !
Think about it, Ok ? JohnDubya !

[fisipavia]

You always make questions, and I have answered them sincerely from Agent Orange problem,POW torture, LBJ ,to Human right...
But you always change the topic without admiting the previous one.
B]

yeap! That's why I stop posting; if he continues making questions we will end questioning ourselves about the beginnig of life. But I would say it's more correct to say he changes topic without considering the previous one, not "admiting" the previous one.
Although I must admit that nevertheless we don't think in the same way, he is not a jerk...like others in this forum...John...nothing personal, i still like you :wink:

[GENIERE]

Hyphis – Below are listed the names of individuals holding key positions in your country’s government. I'm not sure it’s current, so feel free to alter the list.

General Secretary, Communist Party - Nong Duc Manh
President - Tran Duc Luong
Prime Minister - Phan Van Khai
First Dep. Prime Min. - Nguyen Tan Dung

No individual is perfect, not you, not I, not our leaders. Our leaders all create policies that as individuals we dislike. I am an enthusiastic supporter of President Bush but I can think of several important issues wherein I dislike his policies.

For each NEGATIVE comment concerning the individuals named above, I will provide a very important economic reason why the USA should help your nation.

For instance I’ve provided a negative comment re: the General Secretary.

Nong Duc Manh was responsible for a particularly repressive law giving the culture and information minister full control over the media and, in particular, the Internet. Sylvaine Pasquier, reporter for the French weekly L'Express, was arrested and expelled from the country in April 2000 after trying to meet dissidents.

Your comment must address an issue equally as important.

IF you’re are not responsive to my request, I will assume it is due to fear of persecution by your government. Such a government cannot be trusted to utilize US aid to benefit their citizens.

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, you still haven't answered my question about the Vietnamese' ability to express criticism of the government. Why not? Can you write an editorial in the local newspaper criticizing the government?

Just answer the goddamn questions already! If the answer is no, just say so! What is the problem answering the question?

[GENIERE]

hiphys, you still haven't answered my question about the Vietnamese' ability to express criticism of the government. Why not? Can you write an editorial in the local newspaper criticizing the government?

Just answer the goddamn questions already! If the answer is no, just say so! What is the problem answering the question?

Exactly my sentiments!

[hiphys]

JohnDubYa , I’m proud to answer that : “ Yes, I can.”
I wish that some of you can read some newspapers in Vietnamese to prove what I say.
In Vietnam, there are not many e-newspapers, and I really don’t know any e-newspaper in English.
What’s a pity !
It’s understandable.Vietnam is still a poor country.Many of us even don’t know what computer is.
In many Vietnamese newspapers, you can find the “suggestion of citizens” columns.They often appear on page 2 or 3.Everybody can complain about the things that they don’t agree with our government , give their suggestion to solve problems in this column.
I, myself, have never written anything on this column, but some of my friends have written.
Here, every citizens can criticise from a police to the government if they don’t do their duty well.
Now, in many newspapers, the topic “ Using talented persons policy” is discussed widely. Many people criticise that the government haven’t done well in searching, educating, and using national talented persons.
They criticise that many talented persons move to richer countries because in Vietnam, they don’t have good working-condition, because many State agencys still haven’t clear enough policy of employment that leading the existence of employing the so called “con ong chau cha “ ( in English : people who have relation with the management board)…
Now ,the government have invited many social researchers, educative researchers… to discuss about this problem .
In the past, many corruption were stripped naked by the citizens’ denouncement through newspapers such as NamCam gangs sentence (many officials in police were offered a bribe to keep their mouth shut by these gangs, including a general ), a vice minister was accused of child-raping, an agricultural minister was accused of less reponsibility in his work leading damage, a police accused of hitting innocent people…
In the recent days, our government even annouce that they place newspapers an order to criticise the corruption in our society.
Ya, perhaps, you feel that’s not enough, you think that there are many thing for our government to do to prove the human rights in Vietnam.
I agree with this.
What I want to say here is that we are still imperfect in many problems, but what our government is doing now make us believe that we are on the right way.
What we need now is a helping hand (that doesn’t mean only money !) to make progress in the future.
Before closing,I want to give a quote of an American veterant who fought in Vietnam and has lived a long time here after the war :


Political change will come to Vietnam as they become more involved within the world economic and political community. Political change will come as it has to many other countries including America with the social and economic development of the people. The more economically free that Vietnamese people become the more political change will come.

During the Vietnam War we dropped more bombs in Vietnam then we did during all of World War II. If we want the Vietnamese to change, they must be treated with respect and equality. If we learn anything from the Vietnam War is that we cannot bomb people into submission and we cannot economically or politically subjugate them into acting the way we would prefer.

We must work with the Vietnamese as partners if we are to accerlate positive change in this grand and proud country. From my experience, the current legislation being considered by the Congress would have a negative impact on the relationships between our country and change which have been instituted by the Vietnamese.

Finally, let me say that my experience in Vietnam as a returning veteran was an epiphany from the day I arrived until my departure. I was treated with the highest sense of courtesy, respect and kindness by all of the people that I met. From the highest government executives to the taxi drivers and vendors in the markets. A common desire to have good relationships with the United States was expressed. I expect to return to Vietnam and I would urge other Vietnam Veterans and U.S. cictizens to go to Vietnam and witness for themselvesf the realty that Vietnam is today. Vietnam is moving in the right direction. We should work and cooperate with them in order for them to achieve a better quality of life for the Vietnamese people.

[hiphys]

I'm going to travel to Soc Trang, a province in the south of Vietnam.My friend in college has invited me.I may stay their for a month, or more.
I suppose that in Soc Trang,there are not many computer connecting to the internet , so I may not answer your question right away.But please post more questions, I'll answer them as soon as possible.
Goodbye,everybody.
I'' be back ! Seeya.

[JohnDubYa]

Vietnam's communist rulers continue to commit human rights abuses, according to the 2002 State Department Human Rights Report for that country.

Released March 31, the report says that, although the intrusiveness of the communist state has abated somewhat, the people of Vietnam are denied basic freedoms of speech, press, and assembly.

On the other hand, the report notes, Vietnam's communist party "continued its efforts to strengthen the mechanism for citizens to petition the Government."

Ultimately, however, the State Department says the communist authorities "continued to deny citizens the right to change their government."

While members of Vietnam's public security forces "committed numerous human rights abuses," during 2002, the report says the Hanoi regime "did not permit human rights organizations to form or to operate."

Furthermore, the State Department says, religious groups in that nation face persecution, especially Buddhists, Hoa Hao, and Protestants.

"Trafficking in women and children for the purpose of prostitution within the country and abroad continued to be serious problems," the report says, "and there were reports of the trafficking of women to China and Taiwan for arranged and forced marriages."

The complete State Department report on Vietnam, and on other countries in the region can be found at:

http://usinfo.org/wf-archive/2003/030401/epf209.htm

(New York, July 30, 2004)—The Vietnamese government should immediately release Dr. Nguyen Dan Que, a 62-year-old physician who was sentenced to two and a half years’ imprisonment for “abusing democratic freedoms,” Human Rights Watch said today. Dr. Que is one of three dissidents, all winners of the prestigious Hellman/Hammett award for persecuted writers, convicted this month solely for exercising their rights to freedom of expression.
None of these men should have been imprisoned in the first place. The Vietnamese government must cease its heavy-handed attempts to silence its critics.
Sam Zarifi, deputy director, Asia Division


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On Thursday, Dr. Que, a longtime human rights advocate, was convicted for writing an essay—distributed over the Internet—about state censorship of information and the media. Since his arrest in March 2003, he has been held in incommunicado detention.

Two other elderly dissidents were also convicted in July. Pham Que Duong, 73, a prominent military historian and former army colonel, was tried on July 9. Tran Khue, 68, a sociologist and professor at the University of Ho Chi Minh City, was tried on July 14. Both were convicted and sentenced to 19 months’ imprisonment. Because of time served, they are expected to be released within a week. The men had faced official pressure since they proposed establishing an independent anticorruption organization in 2001, and after signing a petition along with 21 other dissidents in 2002 to Vietnam’s National Assembly calling for democratic reforms.

All three men were convicted under Vietnam’s Criminal Code for “abusing democratic freedoms to infringe upon the interests of the state.”

“None of these men should have been imprisoned in the first place,” said Sam Zarifi, deputy director of the Asia Division of Human Rights Watch. “The Vietnamese government must cease its heavy-handed attempts to silence its critics.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/30/vietna9168.htm

Abusing democratic freedoms to infringe upon the interests of the state? If that isn't code for "criticizing the government," then what is?