Tricking Archimede's principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a half wooden sphere submerged in water, specifically examining whether it will float or remain submerged when placed flat against the bottom of a bucket. Participants explore various scenarios and conditions affecting buoyancy, stability, and the forces at play according to Archimedes' principle.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if the flat part of the half-sphere is touching the bucket bottom, it may not float due to a lack of upward pressure from the water.
  • Others argue that the situation is unstable, and even a slight movement could allow water to get underneath the half-sphere, potentially causing it to float.
  • One participant suggests that if water is prevented from entering the underside of the half-sphere, it should remain submerged when the bucket is filled.
  • There is a discussion about the suitability of different shapes, such as a less-than-half sphere or a gothic-arc-shaped wood piece, for stability and buoyancy.
  • Some participants mention that the resultant force, including hydrostatic pressure and gravity, determines whether an object will float or sink.
  • Questions arise regarding the forces involved in Archimedes' principle, particularly the role of hydrostatic pressure versus gravitational force.
  • One participant speculates about the behavior of the half-sphere in a zero-gravity environment, questioning how buoyancy would be affected.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the conditions under which the half-sphere will float or sink, and the discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the outcomes of the proposed scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in practical experimentation, such as the difficulty of removing water from beneath the half-sphere and the need for seals to maintain certain conditions. The discussion also highlights the complexity of forces involved in buoyancy, which may depend on specific configurations and assumptions.

jumpjack
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What would it happen if...

...you get half a wooden sphere, put it into a bucket filled with water, making the flat part of the half-sphere touching the bucket bottom?

Will the half-sphere come up floating?
Maybe not, 'cause water has no way to push it up? :confused:

A video woukd be cool.
 
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jumpjack said:
What would it happen if...

...you get half a wooden sphere, put it into a bucket filled with water, making the flat part of the half-sphere touching the bucket bottom?

Will the half-sphere come up floating?
Maybe not, 'cause water has no way to push it up? :confused:

A video woukd be cool.

If there is no pressure acting on the bottom of the half-sphere it will not float.

However, with this type of experiment you'll likely find that there isn't a practical way to remove the water from the underneath side of the half-sphere once you submerge it in the bucket.

CS
 
The situation you described is extremely unstable. The slightest jitter of the half-sphere would allow water to get underneath and push it up.
 
stewartcs said:
If there is no pressure acting on the bottom of the half-sphere it will not float.

However, with this type of experiment you'll likely find that there isn't a practical way to remove the water from the underneath side of the half-sphere once you submerge it in the bucket.

CS
then if I place it on the bucket bottom and THEN I fill the bucket, it should stay there...?

What would be more suitable? a less-than-half sphere, or a... gothic-arc-shaped-wood-piece? :smile: (It's designed to carry all the weight it receives from above...)
 
jumpjack said:
then if I place it on the bucket bottom and THEN I fill the bucket, it should stay there...?

What would be more suitable? a less-than-half sphere, or a... gothic-arc-shaped-wood-piece? :smile: (It's designed to carry all the weight it receives from above...)

jumpjack said:
then if I place it on the bucket bottom and THEN I fill the bucket, it should stay there...?

If the water is prevent from entering the underneath side (e.g. a seal) then yes.

jumpjack said:
What would be more suitable? a less-than-half sphere, or a... gothic-arc-shaped-wood-piece? :smile: (It's designed to carry all the weight it receives from above...)

I don't know what a gothic-arc-shaped-wood-piece looks like. However, stability of floating bodies is determined the same way.

Take a look here for more information on that: http://www.coastal.udel.edu/faculty/jpuleo/CIEG305/stability_floating_body.pdf

CS
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction_cup" ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
gothic arc:

arco.jpg


And what about a swing-shaped object?
lift.jpg

It has more surface available for pressure from above than it has for "floating force" coming from below...
Would it flow or sink? (if static).
 
jumpjack said:
gothic arc:

arco.jpg


And what about a swing-shaped object?
lift.jpg

It has more surface available for pressure from above than it has for "floating force" coming from below...
Would it flow or sink? (if static).

The resultant force is what determines if it will float or sink (that and the weight of the object of course). Archimedes Principle will work just fine in order to determine if the object will float or not when placed in water.

CS
 
stewartcs said:
The resultant force is what determines if it will float or sink (that and the weight of the object of course). Archimedes Principle will work just fine in order to determine if the object will float or not when placed in water.

CS
yes, but I can't understand WHICH forces try balancing in archimedes' principle: gravity and...?
I don't think it is the attraction among H2O molecules (which causes a hole in the water to close by itself) can push over an object submerged into the water, trying to "expell" it... unless you're in outer space(*).
No, I think archimede's principle depends on gravity: but if gravity only pulls down, how do H2O molecules act on a body to "reverse" gravity effect?

(*)
what does it happen to half-a-sphere submerged in water if there is no gravity? I guess a wooden sphere would remain inside the water sphere (!) where you put it. But if you have a wooden HALF sphere... will it start moving?!? :rolleyes:
 
  • #10
jumpjack said:
yes, but I can't understand WHICH forces try balancing in archimedes' principle: gravity and...?

The force generated by the hydrostatic pressure acting over the surface area of the object.

Draw a FBD and sum the forces. If there is net upward force the object will rise (until it reaches the surface), if the net force is zero the object will float, if it is negative it will sink (until it reaches the bottom).

CS
 
  • #11
It sounds like the OP is trying to balance bouyancy and the film pressure:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5F-48N2WFT-7&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F01%2F2003&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1256565513&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b739e4122064b058ac7b8fe0a8689b8b
 

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