Death of Six

[Dagenais]

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/08/08/bodies.found/index.html)

Sheriff Ben Johnson said the murder was organized by a man who was angry because he believed his Xbox video game system and some clothes had been stolen.

:eek:

[loseyourname]

What the heck does this have to do with politics? Interesting tan line on the white dude, by the way.

[Evo]

What the heck does this have to do with politics? Interesting tan line on the white dude, by the way.Right on both counts. Moving to general discussion.

[Dagenais]

What the heck does this have to do with politics?

World Affairs?

The fact that only stuff like this can happen in the USA?

Beating someone to death because he stole your XBox. Canada? I don't think so.

[loseyourname]

World Affairs?

Note: World Affairs does not mean US Affairs.

[JohnDubYa]

Do they have X-boxes in Canada?

[check]

Beating someone to death because he stole your XBox. Canada? I don't think so.

Lmao, funny you should say that.
My friends and I rented a house for the summer just to throw parties. Anyway, one night an Xbox got stolen from the house during the party. We were all kind of upset, but then after the party the guy came back to steal an amp. My friend caught the guy unhooking the amp and threw him across the room and was gonna kick his butt bad. But his friends restrained him, the kid was scared and returned the Xbox.

So yeah, don't be so sure stuff like that can't happen in Canada.

[Dagenais]

So yeah, don't be so sure stuff like that can't happen in Canada.

Having thoughts of kicking someone's ***, and then not doing it, while you catch a person in the act of jacking your stuff is completely different than killing 6 people with a bat because they may or may not have stolen your XBox.

[Dagenais]

Note: World Affairs does not mean US Affairs.

Oh, really? Then why are the majority of the topics in "Politics & World Affairs" about America's war with the middle east and America's election?

[check]

Dagenais, there are idiot's everywhere who'll kill someone for little or no reason. I suspect that there are places in Canada where if an Xbox jacking, like the one I experienced, occured someone might have been killed. It just takes the right situation and the right idiot. Granted, murder rates in the United States are higher than in Canada, but it doesnt mean stupid stuff like this can't and doesn't happen here.

[Evo]

Oh, really? Then why are the majority of the topics in "Politics & World Affairs" about America's war with the middle east and America's election?Because what happens in America affects the world.

Not to mention that the election falls under politics and the war in the middle east falls under world affairs.

[Dagenais]

Dagenais, there are idiot's everywhere who'll kill someone for little or no reason. I suspect that there are places in Canada where if an Xbox jacking, like the one I experienced, occured someone might have been killed. It just takes the right situation and the right idiot. Granted, murder rates in the United States are higher than in Canada, but it doesnt mean stupid stuff like this can't and doesn't happen here.

Never read any stories in the Montreal Gazette about someone allegedly stealing an XBox, then getting killed with a bat afterwards.

Of course, this is just Quebec. Care to link me to an article demonstrating where a kid got killed due to a stolen XBox?


Because what happens in America affects the world.

Let's rewind back 7 posts:

Note: World Affairs does not mean US Affairs.

[Evo]

[Quote:]

Because what happens in America affects the world.


Let's rewind back 7 posts:

Quote:
Note: World Affairs does not mean US Affairs. Ok, what happens politically in America affects the world.

[check]

Well, here’s a story from Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/21/canada/virk040621

[humanino]

:cry: :surprise: :cry: :eek:
Recently in south of France, some guy refused to give a cigaret to a random request. A few minutes later, he was stabbed to death with a chop. His girlfriend saw everything, but managed to escape.

I believe it's coming from the US, and spreading all over the world. :grumpy:

[decibel]

ok CLEARLY we have Xbox's in Canada.

[merak]

:cry: :surprise: :cry: :eek:
Recently in south of France, some guy refused to give a cigaret to a random request. A few minutes later, he was stabbed to death with a chop. His girlfriend saw everything, but managed to escape.

I believe it's coming from the US, and spreading all over the world. :grumpy:


I read of stupid people, doing stupid things, from all over the world. not just the us.

[Dagenais]

Well, here’s a story from Canada.



You're comparing a murder from 1997, to 6 kids getting beaten so badly to death that one person couldn't even be identified?

From 1997?

Had a little trouble finding a good comparison?

I believe it's coming from the US, and spreading all over the world.

Let's hope it'll stop.

We don't need their mentality anywhere outside America.

[loseyourname]

Oh, in case you forgot, there are women being beaten daily in Islamic countries for failing to wear a vail properly. Inhumane behavior happens everywhere. I realize Canada is the perfect country and nobody there ever commits a psychotic act that results in the death of another person for no good reason. You'll have to forgive the rest of the world for not being so perfect.

[Evo]

I read of stupid people, doing stupid things, from all over the world. not just the us.I believe he was being facetious.

[chroot]

Few rational arguments can be made that depend on only one data point, Dagenais. There has only been one such event in recorded history. The fact that it happened in the US does not mean the US is the only place it could have happened. You are making sweeping generalizations, which I know is your normal modus operandi. Just don't expect the rest of us with more neurons to agree with your presumptive conclusions.

- Warren

[check]

You're comparing a murder from 1997, to 6 kids getting beaten so badly to death that one person couldn't even be identified?

From 1997?

Had a little trouble finding a good comparison?



C'est dommage.

I just googled "Canada teen murder" and that’s one of the first things I found. I didn't bother looking for anymore. Here's a snip from the article:

Taylor says Ellard in a very casual tone described how she stomped on Virk's face, put her foot on her head and held it underwater while she smoked a cigarette.


So, yeah that's pretty bad. Of course I'm not going to find an exact comparison for Canada, but murders happen all over the world.


The fact that only stuff like this can happen in the USA?

Beating someone to death because he stole your XBox. Canada? I don't think so.


Yes, the Xbox killings were really bad, but don't act like that can't happen Canada.


That's another thing that bother's me about a lot of Canadians; their smug "we're better than the US" attitude. It's almost as bad as a lot of Anglophone Canada's dislike of Quebec. Personally, I would rather live here in Canada than in the US. I'm not pleased with the US in many respects, but I don't think we're "better" than Americans.
While this may not be your belief, I just wanted to get that out of the way.

[chroot]

check,

Dagenais has a long history of using very dubious debate tactics here on PF. He commonly makes wide generalizations based on extrema. He also commonly cites single isolated examples as arguments against thousands of counter-examples, then continues to act as if he is making a strong argument. He's either a troll or a seriously ill-equipped debater. You probably shouldn't spend too much time trying to argue with him.

- Warren

[check]

Noted. Thanks chroot.

[Dagenais]

check,

Dagenais has a long history of using very dubious debate tactics here on PF. He commonly makes wide generalizations based on extrema. He also commonly cites single isolated examples as arguments against thousands of counter-examples, then continues to act as if he is making a strong argument. He's either a troll or a seriously ill-equipped debater. You probably shouldn't spend too much time trying to argue with him.

- Warren

and

Few rational arguments can be made that depend on only one data point, Dagenais. There has only been one such event in recorded history. The fact that it happened in the US does not mean the US is the only place it could have happened. You are making sweeping generalizations, which I know is your normal modus operandi. Just don't expect the rest of us with more neurons to agree with your presumptive conclusions.

- Warren

You whine twice on the same page about me, saying basically the exact same thing. I knew once I pointed out a fault in America, you would step out and instead of defending your Country, which you can't, you attack me. The truth hurts, doesn't it?

I haven't heard of 6 kids getting killed due to a stolen XBox in Canada. Unless you can link me to an incident like that, it doesn't exist - at least that's your retarded theory.

Oh, in case you forgot, there are women being beaten daily in Islamic countries for failing to wear a vail properly.

You mean the Islamic Countries that US invaded with their guns, tanks, jets and missiles?


I realize Canada is the perfect country and nobody there ever commits a psychotic act that results in the death of another person for no good reason. You'll have to forgive the rest of the world for not being so perfect.

We're not perfect, but better. (http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/factsheets/canus/default.asp)

A lot better. (http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/s=123/bcw1065594169250/)

[chroot]

I knew once I pointed out a fault in America, you would step out and instead of defending your Country, which you can't, you attack me. The truth hurts, doesn't it?
I have no interest in defending the US. The US is absolutely riddled with political and social problems. I dislike many things about this country, and have strongly considered moving to another. I am about as unpatriotic as Americans come.

What I am defending is common sense, or, more specifically, reasonable debate tactics. If this Xbox incident had occured in Britain and you began claiming that it's typical of the British, I would have made the exact same comments about your behavior.
I haven't heard of 6 kids getting killed due to a stolen XBox in Canada.
Again, this is a logical fallacy. Consider the atrocity mentioned by humanino in post #15, which happened in France. I am not running around claiming the US is better than France because the incident happened in France instead of the US, nor am I claiming that stuff like that only happens in France. These are the sort of arguments you're making, and they're myopic and silly.

- Warren

[Dagenais]

If this Xbox incident had occured in Britain and you began claiming that it's typical of the British, I would have made the exact same comments about your behavior.

But it didn't occur in Britain, it occurred in the United States. This is all too common. Just one example of where 6 kids were beaten to death in Canada due to them suspected of stealing a toy.
Again, this is a logical fallacy. Consider the atrocity mentioned by humanino in post #15, which happened in France.

If you're going to mention Humanino's post, make sure you include important parts that characterizes the purpose of their post. He added an extremely important sentence at the end that you forgot to mention:

Humanino:


I believe it's coming from the US, and spreading all over the world.

[Entropy]

Yeah I heard about this! I live in Florida, I know someone who knew one of the killers.

[chroot]

But it didn't occur in Britain, it occurred in the United States.
And atrocities occur all over the world. It's fair to say that statistically, the US has more crime than other countries. It's not fair to say that this incident could only have occured in the US.
If you're going to mention Humanino's post, make sure you include important parts that characterizes the purpose of their post. He added an extremely important sentence at the end that you forgot to mention:
And humanino's opinion of its motivation somehow affects the factuality of the event having occured in France? Can he provide some evidence that supports his opinion that somehow the US was involved in making this French citizens do what he did? Are you willing to argue that every single atrocity ever committed, anywhere in the world, is the US's fault?

This is what I mean by a logical fallacy, Dagenais: you cling to the tiniest anecdotes that support your position -- even just someone else's unsupported opinion -- and use them to defend yourself like a rabid dog, all the while disparaging or ignoring the much greater contrary evidence that disgrees with you. You'll use one person's logically fallacy to support your own. Absolutely incredible, if you ask me.

- Warren

[Dagenais]

Dagenais has a long history of using very dubious debate tactics here on PF

At least I stick to the truth and I don't spew lies like you do.

Chroot uses his administration powers. If you're right, he's invade your posts and remind you that he has "Admin Powers".

An example

In another thread, in which Chroot and I had a disagreement, the moderator cleaned the thread up.

However, Chroot could still see the posts that were deleted, I could not. He lied and claimed that I had 0 support in that thread. That nobody in the thread agreed with me. He could see the posts, but I couldn't, so he thought I'd never find out. He probably figured, "he'll never find out that I'm a liar." Too bad for him, that I did eventually find the thread - contrary to his lies, I had a lot more than 0 support.

My point?
You're debate tactics include lies and threats. At least I stick to the truth. Something you fail miserably at. There's a reason a complaint thread was filed about you at "Feedback", maybe you should think about that.

[Dagenais]

And humanino's opinion of its motivation somehow affects the factuality of the event having occured in France? Can he provide some evidence that supports his opinion that somehow the US was involved in making this French citizens do what he did?



His opinion is extremely important to me. He's not American, therefore his opinion may be less biased.

You acted as if he was supporting the US in his post.

[chroot]

What are you going on about now? Are you really going to bring that up again? Your only support was one person saying he was sure there an OpenBSD virus (yet he couldn't name any or offer any evidence of any), and your buddy forum administrator who said he thought there could be one too (yet he couldn't name or any offer any evidence of any).

If you call that a victory, fine, pat yourself on the back. :rofl: Leave it at the door though, and stay on topic in this thread.

- Warren

[Dagenais]

What are you going on about now? Are you really going to bring that up again? Your only support was one person saying he was sure there an OpenBSD virus (yet he couldn't name any or offer any evidence of any), and your buddy forum administrator who said he thought there could be one too (yet he couldn't name or any offer any evidence of any).

If you call that a victory, fine, pat yourself on the back. :rofl: Leave it at the door though, and stay on topic in this thread.

- Warren

That wasn't my point. The point was that you started 2 posts whining about the way I carry on arguments, when you're even worse. At least I don't have threads @ Feedback from members displeased with the way I carry myself.

[chroot]

There's a reason a complaint thread was filed about you at "Feedback", maybe you should think about that.
I have thought about it. My conclusion was that all of the mentors have occasionally been on the receiving end of some flying poop, and it's rarely been justified. I hold a visible public position here, and am not a perfect human capable of making everyone happy. I also make mistakes. It's unavoidable that some people will disagree with my actions.

While we're on the topic of public feedback, perhaps you should think about the fact that virtually every thread you get into on this forum garners at least a few people expressing exasperation at your silly debate tactics.

- Warren

[chroot]

That wasn't my point. The point was that you started 2 posts whining about the way I carry on arguments, when you're even worse. At least I don't have threads @ Feedback from members displeased with the way I carry myself.
You have a lot more feedback than you seem to acknowledge; it's scattered all through the threads you participate in. And why would someone post a thread about you in the PF Feedback forum? You're not part of the staff of PF.

- Warren

[Dagenais]

While we're on the topic of public feedback, perhaps you should think about the fact that virtually every thread you get into on this forum garners at least a few people expressing exasperation at your silly debate tactics.



It's actually you, who starts the whining about my debate tactics in the threads I'm in.

Just like this one, and about every other thread where the topic comes up.

[chroot]

It's actually you, who starts the whining about my debate tactics in the threads I'm in.
You think it's just me, Dagenais? Are you serious?

- Warren

[Gokul43201]

And that concludes that debate...

Next topic, folks !

[Evo]

His opinion is extremely important to me. He's not American, therefore his opinion may be less biased.

You acted as if he was supporting the US in his post.Humanino was joking when he said it was being spread from the US, that's his type of humor.

[Artman]

Florida's (where the crime took place) crime rate is lower than Canada's. Maybe we should all move to Florida?

Canada has a population of 31 million and had approximately 300,000 violent crimes in 2003.

Florida has slightly more than half the population at 15.9 Million and only 124,000 violent crimes in the same period. That is less than half of the number of violent crimes.

[check]

Well, depends on if you want to live in a large city, or if you'd rather be killed than beaten up. In 2002, the murder rate for Toronto was 1.9 per 100,000. In Miami it was 7.7 per 100,000.

Sources:
http://www.morganquitno.com/cit02r.pdf
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/07/29/561120.html

[chroot]

check,

If you compare one of best large Canadian cities against the one of the worst large American cities, you're not making a comparison of Canada vs. America as a whole; you're just comparing those two cities.

Your own sources conflict with the point you're trying to make. For example, I'd much rather live in San Diego, US (3.7 murders per 100k) than Regina, Canada (5.1 murders per 100k).

- Warren

[check]

I'm not comparing Canada Vs US.
I'm comparing two cities of comparable population. One from Florida, which Artman said had a lower violent crime rate, and one from Canada. Of course this isn’t meant to reflect all of the state of Florida or Canada. I’m simply stating that while overall Canada has a slightly higher violent crime rate than the state of Florida, the murder rate it lower.

[check]

check,

Your own sources conflict with the point you're trying to make. For example, I'd much rather live in San Diego, US (3.7 murders per 100k) than Regina, Canada (5.1 murders per 100k).

- Warren

Canada’s National murder rate: 2.0
USA’s National murder rate: 5.64

Was that the point you were looking for?

Anyway, I wasn’t trying to compare America and Canada in my last post, as I have stated. Just one large city in Canada to one large city in Florida.

[Artman]

I'm not comparing Canada Vs US.
I'm comparing two cities of comparable population. One from Florida, which Artman said had a lower violent crime rate, and one from Canada. Of course this isn’t meant to reflect all of the state of Florida or Canada. I’m simply stating that while overall Canada has a slightly higher violent crime rate than the state of Florida, the murder rate it lower.

The State of Florida is where this case occured. Laws vary by State in the USA. There are different laws, different means of enforcing them, different ways of detering crime, different punishment from one state to another. Crimes of this nature are a state issue not federal in the USA..

Canada is no better, or no worse than a similar area with similar population, of similar economic level or similar conditions.

[Gokul43201]

Hmmm...sounds like a statement of translational symmetry. That's not a fair evaluation, is it ?

[check]

Canada is no better, or no worse than a similar area with similar population, of similar economic level or similar conditions.

Yes, I totally agree.

Anyway, the only reason I posted a stat on a murder rate was as a joke, not to say that Canada is better than the US or anything.

[Artman]

Hmmm...sounds like a statement of translational symmetry. That's not a fair evaluation, is it ?

If you are referring to my comparison of Florida to Canada, I was just trying to make the point that the entire USA is not crime infested and in fact the state in question is not as bad as being made out in this thread.

Okay, let's compare Florida to a Saskatchewan.

Saskatchewan Population 994,800
Florida Population 15,900,000

Florida Violent Crimes 124,000 / 159 = 780 per 100,000
Saskatchewan Violent Crimes 2,057 per 100,000

Wow! Saskatchewan has nearly three times as many violent crimes per capita as Florida. Wow, who'd of thought that? Sure hope that doesn't spread to the rest of the world.

People being murdered for stealing an Xbox is attrocious to good people everywhere. The cause of the crime is just as pointless to Americans as it is to Canadians.

Canadian Statistics (http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo31a.htm)

[Gokul43201]

I was referring to the statement "Canada is no better, or no worse than a similar area with similar population, of similar economic level or similar conditions."

What do you mean by similar conditions ? If you replicate all the conditions in some new place, that place is not really any different from the original place. This is just the same as saying "An experiment performed at location A will have the same result as at location B, if you take all the conditions at B and move them to A." That's what I meant by 'translational symmetry'.

There are some conditions, that are merits/drawbacks of the system of governance/economy that should be allowed to play a role in any such comparison.

[Artman]

I was referring to the statement "Canada is no better, or no worse than a similar area with similar population, of similar economic level or similar conditions."

What do you mean by similar conditions ? If you replicate all the conditions in some new place, that place is not really any different from the original place. This is just the same as saying "An experiment performed at location A will have the same result as at location B, if you take all the conditions at B and move them to A." That's what I meant by 'translational symmetry'.

There are some conditions, that are merits/drawbacks of the system of governance/economy that should be allowed to play a role in any such comparison.

I think I see what you are saying. Of course. Many crimes of violent nature are drug related, some are alcohol related, some are driven by economic hardships, or unemployment. Perhaps these problems are not the same in Canada, but apparently, they have some of their own.

[loseyourname]

You mean the Islamic Countries that US invaded with their guns, tanks, jets and missiles?


The US has invaded Pakistan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran? I hadn't heard.

We're not perfect, but better. (http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other_docs/factsheets/canus/default.asp)

A lot better. (http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/s=123/bcw1065594169250/)

OTTAWA (CP) -- The rate of deaths from guns in Canada fell to an all-time low last year, providing fresh ammunition for gun-control advocates and drawing envy from south of the border.

The 26 per cent of homicides committed with a firearm was the lowest proportion since statistics were first collected in 1961, Statistics Canada reported Wednesday.

Stabbing was the most common method of killing, accounting for 31 per cent of homicides. Beatings resulted in 21 per cent of deaths, while strangulation or suffocation came in at 11 per cent.

The overall homicide rate actually increased slightly, but it was pushed up by the 15 deaths of missing women that occurred in previous years in Port Coquitlam, B.C., that were reported by police in 2002.


Okay, let's see. You have less people beind murdered with guns, but more people being murdered overall. This is a sign of progress how?

[loseyourname]

Canada’s National murder rate: 2.0
USA’s National murder rate: 5.64

What are the immigration rates and population densities in Canada and the US?

[check]

What are the immigration rates and population densities in Canada and the US?

Canada's net migration rate: 5.96 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)
United State's net migration rate: 3.41 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)

Canada's Pop. Density: 3.57 People / sq km*
United State's Pop. Density: 31.98 People / sq km*

*I'm not sure how it's technically measured, but I did pop / land area, not total area..cause it makes more sense to me that way.

Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook

[enigma]

I read of stupid people, doing stupid things, from all over the world. not just the us.

Hot off the press:

Cannibalistic Wedding Reception in Philippines (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/08/10/philippines.cannibal.ap/index.html)

Four members of a family have been arrested and charged with murder for allegedly killing and eating a relative during a wedding reception -- and serving his flesh to unwitting party guests, police have said.

[Jeebus]

Hot off the press:

Cannibalistic Wedding Reception in Philippines (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/08/10/philippines.cannibal.ap/index.html)

I wonder if they had cake.

[Artman]

...At the July 17 wedding of his daughter, Eladio Baule got angry with his cousin Benjie Ganay who tripped and accidentally touched the bride's bottom, said Senior Police Inspector Perla Bacuel, at Narra town in Palawan province, southwest of Manila....

Cannibalistic Wedding Reception in Philippines (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/08/10/philippines.cannibal.ap/index.html)


Well, at least they had a good reason for the murder.

[Dissident Dan]

This happened very close to where I live. I was working within 20 miles of the location yesterday.

[Gokul43201]

I'm sure there are more cannibals in Papua New Guinea/Irian Jaya than in Philippines ! :wink:

[Chi Meson]

I'm sure there are more cannibals in Papua New Guinea/Irian Jaya than in Philippines ! :wink:

Hope this doesn't spread to the rest of the world.