The rise of unschooled children

[waht]

The Biegler children live as though school doesn't exist.
Hands-off approach to education allows kids to make their own decisions.

They're at home all day, but they're not being homeschooled. They're being "unschooled." There are no textbooks, no tests and no formal education at all in their world.

What's more, that hands-off approach extends to other areas of the children's lives: They make their own decisions, and don't have chores or rules.

Is this a good or bad thing?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/unschooling-homeschooling-book-tests-classes/story?id=10410867

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[MotoH]

Oh wow. Now we will have more stupid kids. Go America.

[Evo]

Reporter: Do you feel prepared to go to college?

girl: "Ugh, If I decide to go to college, then I'll pick up a textbook." Ok, but when you're 19 and the the only "text book" you can master is "Run spot run, run, run, run", you might be a tad behind.

[Jack21222]

I think a far better method of "unschooling" is the Sudbury Valley method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_Valley_School

This way, the kids are actually at a school, and there are teachers around for tutoring, or to hold a class if a group of kids want to get together and form one. For what it's worth, it is fully accredited to award diplomas.

The kids that want to go to college have something like an 80% acceptance rate at the school of their first choice, according to a study done by Sudbury Valley School of its alumni. Consider the source, of course.

[rootX]

Chaotic and unsustainable!

[Borg]

Wow, tragic. :yuck: I guess the parents won't mind when the kids never move out. After all, they probably won't be interested in working either. If they do work, I hope they like saying "You want fries with that?".

[MotoH]

Wow, tragic. :yuck: I guess the parents won't mind when the kids never move out. After all, they probably won't be interested in working either. If they do work, I hope they like saying "You want fries with that?".

I think it is a requirement now that you have to have a high school degree to work at Mcdonalds, or at least be in high school.

[Evo]

It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away.

[Jack21222]

It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away.

If done correctly, "unschooling" does not lead to being "uneducated." I'm not saying these parents are doing it correctly, however.

[Nabeshin]

It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away.

Sounds like pretty spot-on America to me.

[leroyjenkens]

That's probably the worst idea I've ever heard in my life.
It sounds like an idea thought up by a 12 year old.

And if I heard them right, it sounded like the parents of those little kids let the kids decide what they want to eat and when they need to brush their teeth, in addition to not making them go to school. That's dooming them to become fat, toothless, stupid, poor people. These people are dummies.

[Q_Goest]

I have to believe there are studies done on "no-schoolers" that show just how f***ed up the whole concept is.

[Evo]

It's one thing to give a child a choice, it's another to, in essence, not give them one. The older male child said that his parents pulled him out of school in the 1st grade, age 6-7. Seriously, ask any 6 year old "would you rather get up and go to school or lay in bed, watch tv, and eat junk food all day?" What do you think the answer would be?

[DavidSnider]

I was 'unschooled' as a kid. It doesn't mean 'uneducated'. It's more like custom tailoring a curriculum guided by your own interests. It worked fairly well for me, but I knew exactly what I wanted to do when I was older.

Slackers will slack whether they are 'unschooled' or not. Learning is up to the individual.

[DavidSnider]

That said, it is extremely alienating. The sort of vitriol you see in these posts is pretty much the reaction I got from everybody I knew growing up.

[Jack21222]

I have to believe there are studies done on "no-schoolers" that show just how f***ed up the whole concept is.

When the studies are done in the context of a Sudbury Valley-style school, which is still technically "unschooling," the studies show the opposite of what you think. At least the ones I've seen. I haven't seen the studies for children "unschooled" at home.

I do find it interesting that the members of a science board are jumping to conclusions without examining evidence.

[rootX]

When the studies are done in the context of a Sudbury Valley-style school, which is still technically "unschooling," the studies show the opposite of what you think. At least the ones I've seen. I haven't seen the studies for children "unschooled" at home.

I do find it interesting that the members of a science board are jumping to conclusions without examining evidence.

Studies that are done by Sudbury Valley-style school as you said earlier

[Evo]

When the studies are done in the context of a Sudbury Valley-style school, which is still technically "unschooling," the studies show the opposite of what you think. At least the ones I've seen. I haven't seen the studies for children "unschooled" at home.

I do find it interesting that the members of a science board are jumping to conclusions without examining evidence.I've always said that Sudbury is stupid, but at least the kids are exposed to some type of learning. maybe. None of them have ever been heard of again.

Not much to examine, no education is, well, no education. What's to ponder about?

[Desiree]

Now we will have more stupid kids

"Not-educated" is not equal to being "stupid".

[Jack21222]

I've always said that Sudbury is stupid, but at least the kids are exposed to some type of learning. maybe. None of them have ever been heard of again.

Not much to examine, no education is, well, no education. What's to ponder about?

A high school diploma is "no education?"

[Evo]

A high school diploma is "no education?"If there is no education behind it, which is what they essentially claim.

[Jack21222]

If there is no education behind it, which is what they essentially claim.

I think we are using different definitions of the word "education."

[Q_Goest]

The Sudbury Valley school isn't what the video shown in the OP is about. The video shows kids doing absolutely nothing to learn anything. Perhaps that was done purposely by ABC to sensationalize this particular situation, but it doesn't look like the parents of the kids have tried anything to teach their children.

My sister home schooled her 2 kids most of the way through grade school. That home schooling was monitored by the state, and they both went on to college and have done exceptionally well. But the video doesn't show any kind of home schooling either. Not Sudbury Valley. Not home school. In the video, it looks like the parents are wearing blinders, just hoping that by doing nothing their kids will somehow figure out by themselves what they need to do to cope with the modern world.

[DavidSnider]

Unschoolers use the word education like most people use the word indoctrination.

This movement is pretty much inspired by a guy named John Taylor Gatto and his book "The Underground History of American Education".

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/

[Desiree]

It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away.

Well, maybe it's time to make new history by not believing in the "education is a must" thing any longer. In my opinion, one needs to be literate, not necessarily be a college/high school graduate. There are a lot of jobs which actually don't need formal education. For instance, check out all your home appliances' tags, clothes, jeans... most if not all are "Made in China". The average workers who are making all these for us for less than $1/day don't need to go to college or to high school to be able to make these. And please don't tell me, had these poor uneducated people got formal education, they would not have to work on the factory floors or in the sweatshops for such low wages, then who would do such jobs???

I do however believe that in the years to come, ONLY a small percentage of us need to get formal college education, the rest of the population could effectively perform/do things that don't need knowledge of calculus or solving integrals! "formal-education-for-all" is not what we think is necessary in the future and frankly most of the pioneers of science actually discovered things out of their own curiosity while they had little or no formal education at all.

[Jack21222]

The Sudbury Valley school isn't what the video shown in the OP is about. The video shows kids doing absolutely nothing to learn anything. Perhaps that was done purposely by ABC to sensationalize this particular situation, but it doesn't look like the parents of the kids have tried anything to teach their children

While that's true, the term "unschooling" has been applied to the Sudbury Valley method as well as people that just keep their kids home. I maintain that if done right, "unschooling" is perfectly acceptable. The problem is it's hard to do it right, and I'm not so sure just keeping the kid home will be the right kind of environment to foster learning.

[MotoH]

It is called being lazy. The parents are lazy and irresponsible. They are lazy by not doing anything for their kids education, and irresponsible because they don't even care if their kids are getting an education.
You can't play sword fight in your yard all day and learn anything valuable.

[cronxeh]

Perhaps it is for the best. Most blue collar jobs you can learn how to do on the job, and you dont need a high school education or college one for that matter to do your job exceptionally well. If anything, modern education will teach you about war, religion, hatred, social inequality, and injustice. How many can honestly say that in a difficult situation you did not fall back on what was done historically in a particular case, found comfort in the conventional solutions to the problems? You sleep better at night if you do something that everybody does, whether good or bad, even if you dont always agree with it.

What does high school teach you anyway? There is english and literature, history, mathematics, sciences, computers. It does not teach you how to be a better person. If anything, high schoolers are more violent, sexually promiscuous, substance abusive teenagers. Some try to fall through the cracks and eventually get out of the jungle and go to college.

[Evo]

I maintain that if done right, "unschooling" is perfectly acceptable. The problem is it's hard to do it right, and I'm not so sure just keeping the kid home will be the right kind of environment to foster learning.There is no education, at all, as opposed to "home schooling" which in many cases far exceeds formal classroom education. These kids don't seem to be learning anything that will allow them to survive on thier own after their parents die.

If a person is going to be a manual laborer, sure they only need to learn how to do a job. I'd be happy living on a farm, but I also have a desire to learn, even if it's only to gain knowledge for my personal pleasure.

Those kids interviewed seemed rather dim and without passion for anything. Sad.

I am just as opposed to the other extreme where kids are forced to be perfect by over bearing parents. But from what these parents presented in the interview, unless it's on tv, their children don't even know it exists.

Have these parents made any attempt to expose their children to the wonders that are out there? Museums, planetariums, books? How can a child make a decision if they have nothing to choose from? Truly mind boggling.

[DavidSnider]

It is called being lazy. The parents are lazy and irresponsible. They are lazy by not doing anything for their kids education, and irresponsible because they don't even care if their kids are getting an education.
You can't play sword fight in your yard all day and learn anything valuable.

Slacking in public school is just as easy. How many people look back on K-12 and remember it as a time of great productivity?

[DavidSnider]

Have these parents made any attempt to expose their children to the wonders that are out there? Museums, planetariums, books? How can a child make a decision if they have nothing to choose from? Truly mind boggling.

The flip side with public school is they give you such a homogenized breadth-first education where everything just turns to a bowl of mush. If you want to explore deeper, you have to do it on your own, because the teacher has to accommodate to the lowest common denominator.

[turbo]

My good friend's kids (he was head of the Philosophy Dept at UMO) attended Skitikuk, a private school that personalized the curriculum to the students, and did not bin them by ages. It was the polar opposite of "unschooling". The high teacher-student ratio made sure that every kid got challenged. Interested in art, botany, math? That school educated kids at their own speed and ability-level. My neighbor (Broadway producer specializing in lighting, who was only around Friday-Sunday) sent his kids there as well. It probably wasn't cheap, but the kids came out well-rounded and advanced beyond their years.

[skeptic2]

Sounds like it may be similar to Summerhill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

[Jack21222]

Those kids interviewed seemed rather dim and without passion for anything. Sad.



I'm willing to bet they'd be rather dim and without passion for anything even in a public school. I had a passion for learning as a child, but public school beat that out of me. It took me nearly 10 years to recover from public school to continue my education.

Maybe I'm just biased, but the public school system is HORRIBLE for gifted students. I know we have a lot of gifted students (and former students) here that can attest to that. A system of "unschooling," where the child is allowed to learn at his own pace, rather than at the pace of the dumbest person in the class, could be beneficial to those gifted students.

If I had all of those hours back where I learned what a prepositional phrase is over and over and over again, I might have found my interest in physics much sooner. Somewhere between the age of 5 (when I was addicted to Carl Sagan's Cosmos on PBS) and the age of 18 (where I wanted to be a pest control tech for the rest of my life), the public school sapped me of my will to succeed in life. It wasn't until about 2 years ago (age 25) when I decided I'm getting my degree.

I feel a vast majority of my time in high school was completely wasted. If I had been free to learn on my own, maybe with some individualized guidance, I'd be much further along in my life.

Of course, this is just an anecdote. You shouldn't base your opinions on my story. Similarly, you shouldn't base your opinions of "unschooling" on the anecdotes presented in the original video. There are ways to do it, whether through a Sudbury Valley-style school, or though dedicated parenting, which lead to a well-educated child without a formal course structure.

Are there opportunities for abuse by lazy parents and lazy students? Of course. However, lazy parents and lazy students aren't often helped by public schools anyway. Don't discount the whole idea based on a few people abusing the system.

[turbo]

Sounds like it may be similar to Summerhill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_SchoolDon't know, but it seemed that curious, motivated kids (with well-to-do parents, of course) were greatly benefited. One striking similarity is that students in structured courses were grouped by ability, not by age. Got a 12-year-old that is as adept at Trig as a 16-year-old? They would be in the same class, regardless of their abilities in other fields.

[Evo]

I'm willing to bet they'd be rather dim and without passion for anything even in a public school. I had a passion for learning as a child, but public school beat that out of me. It took me nearly 10 years to recover from public school to continue my education.I had my books taken away from me starting when I was 8 years old because the teacher discovered that by the 3rd week of school I had completed the entire year's workbook. They had no programs for motivated "gifted" children.

Long story short, thanks to a new teacher that was hired when I was 11 that thought the idea of making me sit and do nothing in class because, as one teacher put it, "I can't teach two classes, the other kids can't keep up with you, so you will have to slow down", she changed everything. I finished High School at the age of 14, went to France to visit family for a year and started college at 16.

So, I know all about the limitations of bad public schools, but a really smart, motivated kid will overcome it. I consider myself "self taught" and due to that I missed out on so much. I do not recommend it, there is nothing that can compare to people that have formal educations. What these parents are doing to their children is so bad on so many levels.

[rootX]

I had my books taken away from me starting when I was 8 years old because the teacher discovered that by the 3rd week of school I had completed the entire year's workbook. They had no programs for motivated "gifted" children.

Long story short, thanks to a new teacher that was hired when I was 11 that thought the idea of making me sit and do nothing in class because, as one teacher put it, "I can't teach two classes, the other kids can't keep up with you, so you will have to slow down", she changed everything. I finished High School at the age of 14, went to France to visit family for a year and started college at 16.

So, I know all about the limitations of bad public schools, but a really smart, motivated kid will overcome it. I consider myself "self taught" and due to that I missed out on so much. I do not recommend it, there is nothing that can compare to people that have formal educations. What these parents are doing to their children is so bad on so many levels.

But, learning something few years earlier doesn't make a big difference. There is a lot beyond learning more and more ... I don't think exceptional kids should be pushed to their abilities, if they want they will do it themselves.

[Desiree]

the public school sapped me of my will to succeed in life.

Speaking of life, I think I know little bit more about it than you do. Believe it or not, there is no such thing as "success or failure" in life. Eventually everybody dies some day, whether or not they succeeded in becoming a physicist, an engineer, a doctor, a Wall street billionaire...or a failure who has got no money, no house of their own, and no academic achievements what so ever.

Life as I know it, has inherently no purpose or meaning, it just keeps going on and on with constant births and deaths...

[Evo]

But, learning something few years earlier doesn't make a big difference. There is a lot beyond learning more and more ... I don't think exceptional kids should be pushed to their abilities, if they want they will do it themselves.I can't emphasize enough how important a real education is. I think it was Moonbear that really summed up the difference that going to grad school makes in finally putting it all together and showing you have the ability to do something with all of that knowledge. You aren't going to get to that level by sitting on the couch watching tv for 20 years.

Sorry, I'm not going to agree that all schools are a waste of time and teachers are worthless.

[DavidSnider]

Life as I know it, has inherently no purpose or meaning, it just keeps going on and on with constant births and deaths...

... Thank you Desiree, and now here's Tom with the weather.

[rootX]

I can't emphasize enough how important a real education is. I think it was Moonbear that really summed up the difference that going to grad school makes in finally putting it all together and showing you have the ability to do something with all of that knowledge. You aren't going to get to that level by sitting on the couch watching tv for 20 years.

Sorry, I'm not going to agree that all schools are a waste of time and teachers are worthless.

I was not saying that exceptional children shouldn't be given real education but wanted to say more along the lines that providing home education or special education to those children might not be good for them in the long run. Doesn't starting school at 14-16 alienate children or produce some negative effects on them that harm them in the long run?

[ideasrule]

It's one thing to give a child a choice, it's another to, in essence, not give them one. The older male child said that his parents pulled him out of school in the 1st grade, age 6-7. Seriously, ask any 6 year old "would you rather get up and go to school or lay in bed, watch tv, and eat junk food all day?" What do you think the answer would be?

The answer may not be as obvious as you think. Laying in bed, watching TV, and eating junk food all day gets boring very quickly.

[Evo]

The answer may not be as obvious as you think. Laying in bed, watching TV, and eating junk food all day gets boring very quickly.But they've been doing it since they were 6-7 years old, they're 17-18 now. :uhh:

[DavidSnider]

But they've been doing it since they were 6-7 years old, they're 17-18 now. :uhh:

So what? Do you really think public school motivates people to do things? There was no shortage of Junk food eating-tv watchers in my neighborhood when I was 17-18.

[Evo]

So what? Do you really think public school motivates people to do things? There was no shortage of Junk food eating-tv watchers in my neighborhood when I was 17-18.Because they also said that they have never seen a textbook. And they don't learn anything, and they don't even know elementary school math.

[rootX]

So what? Do you really think public school motivates people to do things? There was no shortage of Junk food eating-tv watchers in my neighborhood when I was 17-18.

Going back and reviewing your previous posts, you seem to be bashing public schools while offering no feasible alternative. Yes, I agree public schools are not perfect but they are better than what people in the OP are doing.

Slacking in public school is just as easy. How many people look back on K-12 and remember it as a time of great productivity?

The flip side with public school is they give you such a homogenized breadth-first education where everything just turns to a bowl of mush. If you want to explore deeper, you have to do it on your own, because the teacher has to accommodate to the lowest common denominator.

[DavidSnider]

Going back and reviewing your previous posts, you seem to be bashing public schools while offering no feasible alternative. Yes, I agree public schools are not perfect but they are better than what people in the OP are doing.

The feasible alternative is to eliminate compulsory schooling. Get rid of the disruptions and let the moonbear's and evo's of the world hit their stride without feeling guilty.

[russ_watters]

If done correctly, "unschooling" does not lead to being "uneducated." I'm not saying these parents are doing it correctly, however. By definition, children are incapable of making the necessary choices to do it correctly, so the very notion of doing it correctly is an oxymoron. I do find it interesting that the members of a science board are jumping to conclusions without examining evidence. It shouldn't be. It is a requirement of this forum that those making extrordinary claims must substantiate them. You've done little to support your position and thus the reaction has been negative.

[russ_watters]

Slackers will slack whether they are 'unschooled' or not. Learning is up to the individual. A slacker with a college degree can still get a job and perform at it if he ever choses to mature. A former slacker who can barely write his own name but becomes mature enough to realize it cannot. It is better to force-feed kids the tools so that when they hit 20 or 30 or whatever age they mature, they have them and don't have to start over as if they were 8.

[russ_watters]

Well, maybe it's time to make new history by not believing in the "education is a must" thing any longer. In my opinion, one needs to be literate, not necessarily be a college/high school graduate. There are a lot of jobs which actually don't need formal education. Getting an education isn't just about getting/performing in a job, it is about being a generally functional member of society.

...and frankly most of the pioneers of science actually discovered things out of their own curiosity while they had little or no formal education at all. That's a common misrepresentation. The pioneers of science were by definition uneducated in the things they were discovering because they were discovering them! That's what a "pioneer" is!

At the same time, the pioneers were typically educated in everything relevant that was known at the time. They most certainly did not start completely from scratch.

[russ_watters]

The feasible alternative is to eliminate compulsory schooling. Get rid of the disruptions and let the moonbear's and evo's of the world hit their stride without feeling guilty. One of the biggest problems facing the US today is our dismal high school graduation rate. We need to increase compulsory education, not decrease/eliminate it. Discussion of the few exceptionals is a red herring. Children are children. They need to learn what they need to learn. These things are obvious tautologies and the arguments being used against are self-contradictory. Such as: The answer may not be as obvious as you think. Laying in bed, watching TV, and eating junk food all day gets boring very quickly. But they've been doing it since they were 6-7 years old, they're 17-18 now. So what? Do you really think public school motivates people to do things? There was no shortage of Junk food eating-tv watchers in my neighborhood when I was 17-18. Point proven to be blatantly/obviously wrong, goalposts moved! The whole line of argument is just plain silly.

[zomgwtf]

I was not saying that exceptional children shouldn't be given real education but wanted to say more along the lines that providing home education or special education to those children might not be good for them in the long run. Doesn't starting school at 14-16 alienate children or produce some negative effects on them that harm them in the long run?

I don't know about this rootX. Here in Canada they do various 'standard testing' at a young age to determine various things about students. I scored quite well and was doing great in school, far ahead of the rest of my classmates. My mother was offered to have me put into program for gifted students. My mother refused... on the same basis your using :cry:. She also refused to allow me to skip two grades on the same basis.

After awhile of being ahead all the time and swallowing a lot of information I just got bored of school. I didn't care about it, I understood it but I really couldn't be bothered to waste my time completing the assignments etc. Why waste my time???

It started around grade 8. In grade 6 I was doing grade 10-11 level maths and was studying various sciences on my own time... I had started reading the encyclopedia at my grandparents house but they had packed it away when they moved. I just really stopped caring about school by this point, I saw no point to it at all.

I truly feel had my mother decided to put me in a more intensive program tailored to my needs that I would have strived. Even in my senior years of highschool, I didn't go to school a lot and I hardly ever did assignments, only the ones I thought were interesting. However I always seemed to get great grades when I showed up for tests.

[Proton Soup]

i don't see this as an either/or, but i do think there is a small minority of children that would do well with this method. i'd expect the average unschooled to compare with the average dropout, which, on average, is less than average, i think.

[Desiree]

We need to increase compulsory education, not decrease/eliminate it... Children are children. They need to learn what they need to learn.

Wow! You sound like those Indian parents who want (and pressure) their older son to become a doctor and their younger daughter to marry a doctor only!

[Borg]

I still find the original story tragic. It was like watching a train wreck. Just because there are cases where 'unschoolers' have succeeded doesn't mean that those two will. I'm sure that the reporter tried to find the worst example in order to sensationalize the story for the GMA show.

It would be interesting to know what the success rate is for this type of education. I did a quick Google search to see if I could get any real numbers on the success rates for this type of education. Unfortunately, most of the articles appeared to be from home school academies that were trying to boast about how great home schooling is in order to sell their products.

[russ_watters]

Wow! You sound like those Indian parents who want (and pressure) their older son to become a doctor and their younger daughter to marry a doctor only! There is a lot of difference between becoming a doctor and finishing high school. Besides the extra years of education, becoming a doctor happens in adulthood and costs money. Finishing high school happens at the end of childhood and is free. There is no excuse for not taking advantage of it.

And as someone pointed out earlier, even a burger flipper type job often requires (or at least looks favorably on) a high school education.

[russ_watters]

I know I'm going backwards now, but... It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away. Much of this can be settled using history as the guide. The current level of development relies heavily on an educated populace and free/comuplsory education is truly one of the great triumphs/enablers of a developed society.

[Kajahtava]

People should be free to make stupid choices. The quaestion is if parents should be allowed to make stupid choices for their children... but as long as parents can fill their children with nonsense and send them to church, it's only fair.

In an ideal world though, teachers and parents would not be allowed to teach children things that are disproven by the scientific method, this includes nonsense like dressing warm outside, eating from the floor and all those other methods of control of children and excuses for censorship that people invented.

[Borg]

That said, it is extremely alienating. The sort of vitriol you see in these posts is pretty much the reaction I got from everybody I knew growing up.

High school was no picnic for some of us either.

[Evo]

I personally hated school, but how else is a child going to learn how to handle rejection, disapointment, the possibiliy of failure and how to turn these situations around? Unless they can stay isolated for the rest of their life, learning how to cope with these challenges as they grow and develop, they are not going to be able to handle with life around other people.

And yes, it's a good thing to be faced with the little disappointments and failures, or at least the risk of them. It makes you a stronger person. And before someone turns this into a "you're advocating abuse!", no, I'm talking about realizing you aren't going to have mommy and daddy handing out gold stars for getting out of bed in the morning and handing you sugar covered donuts because you managed to put socks on. Very few people have the opportunity to live a life where they are never faced with adversity and are coddled and pampered and have every need attended to. What's going to happen to these kids when their parents die and they are adults with no skills or knowledge?

[mgb_phys]

I love the presumed relationship between high school and education.
Schools are about getting high average marks in this years standardized tests so that their funding increases, teaching is about making sure your class scores the necessary marks.

Originally universal education was necessary because it children needed to at least be able to count and write their name to deal with these new fangled steam engines - as long as they were still allowed an 8 week holiday in july and August to get the harvest in.

Now all high school teaches is that you have to jump through the necessary set of hoops and not bother with anything that isn't on this quarter's test - which is probably pretty good training for most corporate jobs.
I was going to say the only extra skill needed was powerpoint - but that's already the major part of the curriculum for most schools.

[CharmedQuark]

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the fact that these kids and others like them would still get to vote if they felt so inclined. Now that is a scary thought.

[Greg Bernhardt]

The parents and kids are delusional. They will be working at Subway and living in their parents basement. I hope they interview the family again in ten years. That boy can barely speak straight.

[mgb_phys]

They will be working at Subway and living in their parents basement.
With the current grade inflation Subway will be a graduate job in 10years time.
There are also a lot of PhDs living in their parents basement.

That boy can barely speak straight.
How unlike the oratorical eloquence of the typical high school student.

(sorry feeling very old grumpy and "bah -kids today" this morning!)

[zomgwtf]

I think people are being extremely unfair.

Saying that 'they can vote'! is an extremely rediculous concept, I'm sure that in school they hardly teach you ANYTHING that you need to be able to vote. Like what do you NEED TO KNOW to understand politicians ideas??? Nothing that you get from school. A lot of what is taught in school is actually completely useless to most people.

I also think what Greg said is unfair. I can go to plenty of American school and find people who can't speak properly ALL OVER. I'm sure if even you were in an interview in your home, meaning no prior preperation for the questions that are coming that you wouldn't be able to speak straight either. Even when kids his age do prepare to give a presentation in front of a 30 person class they stammer about and are extremely nervous... like really?

I see more delusion coming from these forums towards education than I do about these people. I am a firm believer that intelligence is not about what you know or how much you can remember, or what grades you achieve in school. I do think that school opens up opportunities that otherwise probably wouldn't have been known to a person... and that it is a pretty great accomplishment of developed nations. I can't say I believe that not going to school will make you a failure in life or more stupid than the next chump who did go to school. Maybe you won't live up to your maximum potential or something because you hadn't been exposed to various subjects etc. but probably 99% of people don't live up to their maximum potential anyways.

[lisab]

Having a high school (or college) education says this about someone: he is capable of doing something he doesn't want to do. And that is very valuable to an employer, because no job is without drudgery.

Do the "unschooled" kids in that video have that kind of discipline? Well if I was an employer and had to choose between one candidate with evidence that he does have it (in the form of a formal education), versus an unschooled kid who has no such evidence, guess which one I'd pick. I'm not going to gamble on an unknown.

So, a formal education may make you more employable. I'm not saying employability is the most important aspect of a human being, but hey, at some point you *do* have to pay the bills.

[NeoDevin]

Saying that 'they can vote'! is an extremely rediculous concept, I'm sure that in school they hardly teach you ANYTHING that you need to be able to vote. Like what do you NEED TO KNOW to understand politicians ideas??? Nothing that you get from school. A lot of what is taught in school is actually completely useless to most people.

So to be able to grasp economic policies doesn't require high school math? To be able to understand the impact of social policies doesn't require history/social studies? To understand the relative importance of science fields doesn't require high school science? Heck, the kids in the OP probably can't even read the campaign posters. If anything we should be pushing for more mandatory education.

[zomgwtf]

Having a high school (or college) education says this about someone: he is capable of doing something he doesn't want to do. And that is very valuable to an employer, because no job is without drudgery.

Do the "unschooled" kids in that video have that kind of discipline? Well if I was an employer and had to choose between one candidate with evidence that he does have it (in the form of a formal education), versus an unschooled kid who has no such evidence, guess which one I'd pick. I'm not going to gamble on an unknown.

So, a formal education may make you more employable. I'm not saying employability is the most important aspect of a human being, but hey, at some point you *do* have to pay the bills.

Wouldn't you be more impressed by the kid who taught themselves math and science by their own choice than the kids who just sit in class and remember what they need to know?

Those type of 'do what you don't want' jobs in my opinion are really only low level entry jobs. A major thing in America is being able to do what you enjoy doing, you don't enjoy your job then WHY ARE YOU THERE? If that's the only type of jobs that a diploma can get you then who cares about it? If these people say chose to go to college I would be MUCH more impressed by their abilities over someone who went to highschool prior to meeting them.

[Greg Bernhardt]

A lot of what is taught in school is actually completely useless to most people.

K-12 is about discovering interests and good learning habits.


I also think what Greg said is unfair. I can go to plenty of American school and find people who can't speak properly ALL OVER.

Yeah but at least those kids were given a chance to succeed. If you've never taken a proper english or speaking class, odds are you're going to be challenged in communication.


I'm sure if even you were in an interview in your home, meaning no prior preperation for the questions that are coming that you wouldn't be able to speak straight either.

He didn't look nervous, rather he had trouble processing his thoughts and relaying a decent response.


I see more delusion coming from these forums towards education than I do about these people. I am a firm believer that intelligence is not about what you know or how much you can remember, or what grades you achieve in school.

Would you ever claim a feral kid has appropriate intelligence?

[Evo]

What benefit is intelligence without knowledge? The problem is that these kids are not choosing to pick up a book and teach themselves. The mother was proud to say that they'd never touched a textbook.

Perhaps they dredged the bottom of the barrel with this family, but right now that's the example we are working with. I wonder how representative of the people involved in this backwards movement they are? I haven't seen an outcry anywhere from families that believe in this type of lack of responsibilty saying "wait a minute, our kids spend most of their time learning!".

[zomgwtf]

So to be able to grasp economic policies doesn't require high school math? To be able to understand the impact of social policies doesn't require history/social studies? To understand the relative importance of science fields doesn't require high school science? Heck, the kids in the OP probably can't even read the campaign posters. If anything we should be pushing for more mandatory education.

You're just assuming that these things are only taught in school... if only it were true.

Most people can't grasp any economic policies really... How I would say no just to grasp the general idea presented by politicians on their economic plans you do not need highschool math. In highschool math I learnt courses like: Functions/relations, Advanced functions, Calculus, Discreet + vectors. I wonder if that gives me a better ability to grasp economic policies over someone who can add/subtract/multiple/divide and probably they know algebra.
Why do you need to understand history to know what effects YOU as a person, that's the entire point of democracy to vote for what YOU want. If there was a historical reason behind policies I can assure you, it takes 3 seconds to find it and understand it.
To understand science I do not think you need to take ANY science courses actually. That's why in college/university they have 'intro science' courses, for people who haven't taken prereqs to get into advanced scientific concepts yet. All of this can easily be learnt on your own. I'm sure the kids can read, the one kid is seen playing a video game online, I wonder how difficult that would be without being able to read. What does going to highschool have to do with your ability to read. I know I was reading chapter books prior to even kindergarden. Highschool english, although mandatory, hardly had anything to do with being able to read. It was mostly learning technical rules of english and reading stories.

Plus, I think you're making the incorrect assumption that because these children don't go to school they are 'primitive' or that they haven't learnt anything on their own. That's pretty arrogant in my opinion.

[zomgwtf]

Would you ever claim a feral kid has appropriate intelligence?

There it is, the comparison I've been waiting for someone to make! These kids aren't feral by any means. Give me a break.

That's the whole delusion I'm saying you guys are under. No school = feral/wild/stupid/no motivation/no understanding.

[zomgwtf]

What benefit is intelligence without knowledge? The problem is that these kids are not choosing to pick up a book and teach themselves. The mother was proud to say that they'd never touched a textbook.

They look to be only pre-teens... the way I look at it is if they have the intelligence then their natural instincts will drive them to want to learn more. They'll thirst for knowledge instead of having a bunch of useless stuff thrown at them. In fact I believe that if one of these children decided to say take up biology as a hobby that they'd have a better understanding of biological concepts, given the proper resources, than your average highschool biology student would. People definitely learn more about what interests them and what they choose to go after.

[Greg Bernhardt]

There it is, the comparison I've been waiting for someone to make! These kids aren't feral by any means. Give me a break.

That's the whole delusion I'm saying you guys are under. No school = feral/wild/stupid/no motivation/no understanding.

I think they are pretty close. They have no parental guidance.

It would be different if Johnny was working on a car engine all day or Cindy was designing clothes or gardening, but these kids aren't developing any skills. They are watching TV and clubbing each other with bats.

You can look at amazon or african tribes. They don't have any formal education, but can be considered intelligent because they are essentially home schooled and tutored in skills by their family.

[Evo]

They look to be only pre-teens...No, the girl would be a junior in High School, so 16, her brother is older.

the way I look at it is if they have the intelligence then their natural instincts will drive them to want to learn more. They'll thirst for knowledge instead of having a bunch of useless stuff thrown at them. In fact I believe that if one of these children decided to say take up biology as a hobby that they'd have a better understanding of biological concepts, given the proper resources, than your average highschool biology student would. People definitely learn more about what interests them and what they choose to go after.But they AREN'T choosing to learn. They said so in the video. It's not important to them.

[zomgwtf]

I think they are pretty close. They have no parental guidance.

It would be different if Johnny was working on a car engine all day or Cindy was designing clothes or gardening, but these kids aren't developing any skills. They are watching TV and clubbing each other with bats.

You can look at amazon or african tribes. They don't have any formal education, but can be considered intelligent because they are essentially home schooled and tutored in skills by their family.

That's all that you saw of them in that tiny clip so you assume that's all they do and are feral??? I'm pretty sure they do gardening as they had a vast variety of plants growing inside under a proper setup.

I think a lot of people here have a 'biased' view of education. Why would I think that? Because the vast majority of people here are EXTREMELY intelligent relative to the general population. Of course the more intelligent people love school... they have that 'thirst' for knowledge in that particular field. The only way that most people learn about these things is through some sort of formal education, however it's not needed by everyone.

[Greg Bernhardt]

I'm pretty sure they do gardening as they had a vast variety of plants growing inside under a proper setup.

Growing parsley in a tin can is not gardening! The are not getting any education or direction for the parents. That is the problem.

[zomgwtf]

The are not getting any education or direction for the parents. That is the problem.

I'll agree with this but that has nothing to do with going to school.

[NeoDevin]

Most people can't grasp any economic policies really...

So you would say it's acceptable to handicap them even more?

How I would say no just to grasp the general idea presented by politicians on their economic plans you do not need highschool math. In highschool math I learnt courses like: Functions/relations, Advanced functions, Calculus, Discreet + vectors. I wonder if that gives me a better ability to grasp economic policies over someone who can add/subtract/multiple/divide and probably they know algebra.

Just because you, and many others, choose not to apply the tool you learned in high school isn't an argument for not giving children the tools in the first place.

Why do you need to understand history to know what effects YOU as a person, that's the entire point of democracy to vote for what YOU want.

Because we all know that how the politicians claim a policy will affect you is how it actually affects you... :rolleyes: A basic understanding of history and social studies is required to begin to understand these things.

If there was a historical reason behind policies I can assure you, it takes 3 seconds to find it and understand it.

Whether there is a historical reason for a policy is irrelevant. Understanding history is necessary (though not necessarily sufficient) for understanding the effects of a policy.

To understand science I do not think you need to take ANY science courses actually.

Are you attempting to speak of particular individuals, or the population at large? In the case of rare individuals who are gifted at self study, maybe. For the population at large this is a ridiculous statement.

That's why in college/university they have 'intro science' courses, for people who haven't taken prereqs to get into advanced scientific concepts yet.

Those are for people who want to proceed into more advanced topics, and completely irrelevant to the discussion of having a basic understanding of science/science policies.

All of this can easily be learnt on your own.

Not for everyone.

I'm sure the kids can read, the one kid is seen playing a video game online, I wonder how difficult that would be without being able to read.

I'm sure they can read basic sentences, I highly doubt they could understand anything remotely complex, like a grade 3 math text. The amount of reading skill required to play most games is minimal (many games, the only thing you need is "Go" and then the rest is done with auditory commands).

What does going to highschool have to do with your ability to read. I know I was reading chapter books prior to even kindergarden. Highschool english, although mandatory, hardly had anything to do with being able to read. It was mostly learning technical rules of english and reading stories.

You are correct, it is about being able to communicate effectively in English, and to understand the communication of others. Hardly skills necessary to be a productive member of society... :rolleyes:

Plus, I think you're making the incorrect assumption that because these children don't go to school they are 'primitive' or that they haven't learnt anything on their own. That's pretty arrogant in my opinion.

The children interviewed could barely string sentences together (admittedly, I don't think much of their parents ability to speak either). I never claimed that they haven't learned anything, just that they are missing a large variety of important skills, and simply haven't been exposed to a lot of topics which they might otherwise have been interested in.

Edit to clarify: I'm not arguing against home-schooling, or necessarily in favour of the current public school system, just that a complete lack of education is wrong on so many levels.

[zomgwtf]

No, the girl would be a junior in High School, so 16, her brother is older.

But they AREN'T choosing to learn. They said so in the video. It's not important to them.

I never heard them say anything about choosing not to learn. I heard the parents talk about them not learning anything that's not important or doesn't interests them...

The boy I think is 13 and I guess your right about the girl 15/16 years old. The lady said the boy was 7 years old when he was in school and they had said that these two teens hadn't been in school for 6 years.

[zomgwtf]

The children interviewed could barely string sentences together (admittedly, I don't think much of their parents ability to speak either). I never claimed that they haven't learned anything, just that they are missing a large variety of important skills, and simply haven't been exposed to a lot of topics which they might otherwise have been interested in.

I do agree with this but I disagree that school is the only method for people to be exposed to things that interest them.

I also don't think it's difficult for people to learn things on their own, all they need is to be interested.

[Evo]

I'll agree with this but that has nothing to do with going to school.It's not about them going to school, it's about them not being taught anything and they haven't chosen to learn on their own. It's about wasting a mind. It's about parents "choosing" to do nothing and saying how happy their children are that they are allowed to be dumb as rocks.

I don't know what video you watched, but the video I watched showed a couple of clueless humans a few years away from being classified as adults. Sure, miracles happen, they could, as their mother said, someday decide to learn algebra and so they will pick up a book and learn it, although they don't even have basic math skills, if we are to believe what she's said.

[NeoDevin]

I do agree with this but I disagree that school is the only method for people to be exposed to things that interest them.

I also don't think it's difficult for people to learn things on their own, all they need is to be interested.

Then you seem to be missing the point that many of us are trying to make: We're not arguing, necessarily, in favour of the current education system. Rather, we're arguing against a complete lack of education as a method of raising children. If you want to make a case for various alternative forms of education, feel free to start a thread on it. Everyone in this thread is discussing the complete lack of education and guidance present in the family in the video in the OP.

[zomgwtf]

that they are allowed to be dumb as rocks.

All children are allowed to be dumb as rocks, going to school doesn't effect this. In fact the vast majority of people I met during school at various schools I would consider to be dumb as rocks anyways.

[zomgwtf]

Then you seem to be missing the point that many of us are trying to make: We're not arguing, necessarily, in favour of the current education system. Rather, we're arguing against a complete lack of education, as a method of raising children. If you want to make a case for various alternative forms of education, feel free to start a thread on it. Everyone in this thread is discussing the complete lack of education and guidance present in the family in the video in the OP.

I had originally stated that people are being unfair towards THESE people because they have decided to be 'unschooled'.

EDIT: None of us know them or their family, I don't think atleast. All we know of them is that their parents have decided to not give their children formal education and leave it in the childrens hands to learn what interests them. I do not think that this will lead to 'dumb as rocks' or stupid children by any means... and I also don't think that it's success/failure rate (in terms of understanding in particular fields which interest the children) would be any different compared to the same child who had gone to K-12 schooling.

[NeoDevin]

The children interviewed could barely string sentences together (admittedly, I don't think much of their parents ability to speak either). I never claimed that they haven't learned anything, just that they are missing a large variety of important skills, and simply haven't been exposed to a lot of topics which they might otherwise have been interested in.
I do agree with this

I had originally stated that people are being unfair towards THESE people because they have decided to be 'unschooled'.

So you agree that these children can barely string sentences together, and that they are missing a large variety of important skills, yet you still think that people are being unfair towards this particular family's technique of un-schooling?

[zomgwtf]

So you agree that these children can barely string sentences together, and that they are missing a large variety of important skills, yet you still think that people are being unfair towards this particular family's technique of un-schooling?

I had only meant to quote the
I never claimed that they haven't learned anything, just that they are missing a large variety of important skills, and simply haven't been exposed to a lot of topics which they might otherwise have been interested in.
part... My bad.

I do not agree that these children struggle any more to speak on TV than any other person. These are not farmers out in the middle of no where with no connection to society. These children have plenty of resources and I highly doubt their communication skills are lacking any more than your average typical 13 year old.

[NeoDevin]

I had only meant to quote the

part... My bad.

My point still stands if you cross out "can barely string sentences together", and read it instead as:

"So you agree that these children can barely string sentences together, and that they are missing a large variety of important skills, yet you still think that people are being unfair towards this particular family's technique of un-schooling?"

[russ_watters]

The amount of ILL-logic in here from people arguing against formal education is spectacular - not to mention ironic. Its all non sequitur, goalpost shifting and smokescreen and arguing against reality. Most of it is focused on ignoring the reality of the majority and arguing special cases as if they were representative. Most stark is ignoring the OP itself and arguing in the face of a counterexample that kids will 1. Choose to get educated (anyone being honest here knows they won't) or 2. Be ON AVERAGE better educated/more articulate than a high school grad. The possibility that an 18 year old who has never attempted to learn vocabulary could have a better one than even a high shool grad who barely slid by in English class is just silly.

[zomgwtf]

1. Choose to get educated (anyone being honest here knows they won't)
Really? You think that because peopl don't go to school they'll choose not to learn ANYTHING?

2. Be ON AVERAGE better educated/more articulate than a high school grad. The possibility that an 18 year old who has never attempted to learn vocabulary could have a better one than even a high shool grad who barely slid by in English class is just silly.

Who said anything about being better? In some rare cases yes children with no formal education will be better than those with... they probably could have been even better if they themselves had gone to formal education but that's their choice, and they probably would make it if they were that rare case. The rest of them I wouldn't say are any more stupid than any other student of similar age.

As well I haven't noticed myself commiting any of those fallacies hmph.

The potential problem I see here isn't with them not being formally educated, it's with their parents.

[ViewsofMars]

It's just so stupid, for most of history an edcuation was the privelege of the wealthy. Women were denied formal educations as were the poor. And now we have people that willingly decide to remain uneducated. So many people fought for so long for the opportunity to get an education and these people throw it away.

And let's not forget women's rights have and still are ignored by some men. (Some men see eye to eye and fail to see the female's point of view.) Those men can wreak havoc on a female's life even in the 21st century. I've known a few professional women that have left the field of science due to harassment or threats or insults by men in the workplace. I personally have been a victim but hung in there!:) I usually advise females (young or old) to set their goals high. Work hard and seek a job where you have direct contact with the CEO and other females within the organization to discuss concerns that may crop up. Also, educational standards where I live are set extremely high for K-12 grades. Property tax includes school bonds. Let's just say, the money that flows out of my bank account for those school bonds is just under a thousand a year. I don't mind because the kids in the my school district are extremely intelligent, active in sports, and very happy.

[Count Iblis]

Is this a good or bad thing?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/unschooling-homeschooling-book-tests-classes/story?id=10410867

XEUzsooa1JE

It was good enough from 200,000 BC right until the late Middle Ages.

[D H]

I've been lurking so far on this topic. I'm out of the lurking closet now.

I had originally stated that people are being unfair towards THESE people because they have decided to be 'unschooled'.
Snarky reply: Life is unfair.

The vitriol (well-deserved) is not aimed at the kids. It is aimed at the parents. Those kids will most likely be good at one thing only: Collecting money that is not theirs. They might get this money from the government, or they may get it by more nefarious means. There is, perhaps, a bit selfish going on here, that many of us do not particularly like parents who are raising their kids to be welfare bums or worse. Or maybe not. Maybe, just maybe, we have the best interests of those kids at heart.


Having a high school (or college) education says this about someone: he is capable of doing something he doesn't want to do. And that is very valuable to an employer, because no job is without drudgery.
That has to qualify as the understatement of the month. If would love a job that is 50% or less drudgery. The drudgery may be necessary, but it is still drudgery. Learning to deal with that is important.

frankly most of the pioneers of science actually discovered things out of their own curiosity while they had little or no formal education at all.
Now we're getting to the heart of things. You are talking about people who are six or more sigma away from the norm.

First off, Desiree, please name one pioneer of science who had little or no formal eduction. Certainly not Einstein. He had a PhD in physics, which he obtained before his miracle year. Certainly not Newton. His mother tried to "unschool" him. Fortunately, educators convinced his mother otherwise. Certainly not Gauss, or Poincaré.

Our education system is not aimed at the 6+ sigma people, those who come along less than once a generation. It can't be. Those people come along less than once a generation. Our education system certainly does need to be improved. That does not mean throwing it out.

[ViewsofMars]

One observation I've made over the years is unschooled children and adults cuss in public. If children see adults cussing then they think it is ok to cuss too. I don't think the cussing language in dialogue with someone else is considered good manners. I see it only on the Interent. The cusser's use those little stars on their keyboard.

[Proton Soup]

It was good enough from 200,000 BC right until the late Middle Ages.

even in the middle ages, you would expect them to be working in some sort of apprenticeship situation unless they were aristocracy.

[Evo]

even in the middle ages, you would expect them to be working in some sort of apprenticeship situation unless they were aristocracy.Even back to the earliest humans, you learned a skill in order to contribute and survive. Going back to earliest recorded history, obviously, you had scribes, you had farmers, shepherds, stoneworkers, artists, you name it.

[Desiree]

First off, Desiree, please name one pioneer of science who had little or no formal eduction. Certainly not Einstein. He had a PhD in physics, which he obtained before his miracle year. Certainly not Newton. His mother tried to "unschool" him. Fortunately, educators convinced his mother otherwise. Certainly not Gauss, or Poincaré.

Our education system is not aimed at the 6+ sigma people, those who come along less than once a generation. It can't be. Those people come along less than once a generation. Our education system certainly does need to be improved. That does not mean throwing it out.

I agree with you. I also totally disagree with the complete lack of education. However going through present worldwide education system to get 'educated' is not the only/best thing to do. There are lots of ways and opportunities in life to learn and acquire knowledge and skills. I am not a fan of the idea of having kids sitting around at home all day and doing nothing. Off course such kids will be 'socially paralyzed' in their adulthood, however in order to prevent that, current education system is not the only/best option for them.

As for the pioneers of science, I meant those people who, off course, were educated, but not necessarily formally through their prevalent education system at their time. Their accomplishments and contributions to science were partly due to the knowledge that had been passed on to them from previous generations, and mainly due to their own curiosity.