Just a little respect for the President

[airborne18]

OK I am Disabled Veteran and once a month I have a Paratrooper meeting in Washington DC. This month it was on 9/11.

We stopped at Andrews Airforce base to shop at the BX and eat. I use the bathroom at the BX and someone wrote "Obama's a Liar'.

I am not a fan of Obama, but at a military base? He is still the commander-in-chief, I don't buy that "Hes not my President" b/s that the angry people always say.

I just don't get it. Yeah it is politics, but there is a time and place.

[mugaliens]

I have the utmost respect for the office of our Presidency. I simply hope and pray the person inhabiting that office makes the right decisions required to lead our nation in the right direction. I trust the process. It's not perfect, but it's pretty dang good. :)

[nismaratwork]

I'm no fan of any politician, but as you say people seem to have lost the distinction between respect for the office and LIKING the person who occupies it. To be fair, this is nothing new, and as long as the CIC can give orders that are obeyed, we're alright. I'm sorry that you find the childish rantings of some upsetting, but it's human nature... for better or worse. My rule of thumb is that anything someone only has the balls to write on a bathroom stall isn't worth taking seriously. There's someone without the courage of their convictions.

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't really care so much about the slurs as this has been part of the US political process from the start. In fact, I became very disrepectful of Bush because I felt he had betrayed the country, so he deserved no respect. I still respected the office, but not him. And I wasn't going to show respect for someone who betrayed the country.

Consider for example the use of torture, while simply denying it was torture as a justification. That was downright Orwellian and terrifying from my point of view! To me, that was a betrayal of our country in the deepest sense. It was a fundamental violation of American values. It was not only unamerican, it was Anti-American. Our enemies torture people; we don't. We are better than that.

But most of the slurs against Obama are in fact lies. This makes all the difference. If you hate Obama for real reasons, fine, but it you hate him because of what you saw on Fox Noise, or because of what the idiots on AM radio claim, then your objections are likely rooted in fantasy.

Is Obama a liar? Probably. I don't think anyone in politics can survive by always telling the truth. Does this diminish his role in history as one of our greatest Presidents? Not in the least.

[nismaratwork]

I don't really care so much about the slurs as this has been part of the US political process from the start. In fact, I became very disrepectful of Bush because I felt he had betrayed the country, so he deserved no respect. Consider for example the use of torture, while simply denying it was torture as a justification. That was downright Orwellian and terrifying from my point of view! To me, that was a betrayal of our country in the deepest sense. It was a fundamental violation of American values. It was not only unamerican, it was Anti-American. Our enemies torture people but we don't. We are better than that.

But most of the slurs against Obama are in fact lies. This makes all the difference. If you hate Obama for real reasons, fine, but it you hate him because of what you saw on Fox Noise, then your objections are likely rooted in fantasy.

Is Obama a liar? Probably. I don't think anyone in politics can survive by always telling the truth. Does this diminish his role in history as one of our greatest Presidents? Not in the least.

Good points... for instance, Nixon lied and cheated, but he was effective in some ways. I respect the parts of him that worked, pity the parts that went nuts, and have no respect for the lies and deceit around Cambodia, Vietnam, and of course Watergate. I HATE W. Bush, for the reasons that Ivan has stated and more, and have no respect for him... I really felt he brought dishonor to the presidency. Clinton was a whore, but that's a pretty typical human failing. Obama... seems to be somewhat less than he advertised, but that's politics as usual... respect the office, dislike the man perhaps? The lying now, and the hatred around Obama eclipses what I saw for W. and that makes no sense. THAT, is more disturbing than the issue of respect in my mind.

[arunma]

But most of the slurs against Obama are in fact lies. This makes all the difference. If you hate Obama for real reasons, fine, but it you hate him because of what you saw on Fox Noise, or because of what the idiots on AM radio claim, then your objections are likely rooted in fantasy.

I more or less agree with what you said. I too didn't (and still don't) respect Bush as a person. Obama I can deal with. He's not that great, but I'll take him over Bush any day.

What I really don't understand is precisely why the right is inventing lies about Obama. There are some legitimate reasons to dislike him. For all he said about hope and change, his presidency has brought about neither. And regardless of how little control the President has over the economy, the poor economic state of the country is a decent reason to lash out at whoever's in the White House. Why invent lies about faked citizenship, death panels, secret practice of Islam, etc.?

It annoys me that the right created stupid reasons as to why we were supposed to support Bush during his two terms (e.g. patriotism, falsely asserting that supporting the President => supporting the troops, claims that Bush is protecing us from terrorists, etc.). And they are now falsifying reasons as to why we should hate Obama. You'd think these guys would argue from facts and not shock talk.

[airborne18]

Well either way. On a military base to graffiti a bathroom. Let me put it to you this way. Graffiti in bathrooms on a military base is not common, and there was nothing else wriiten on any wals..

[Borek]

If that makes you feel better, disrespect and lies about president that was elected by the nation are not only US thing. Twin of our deceased president lost election and things that he is saying right now about our new president qualify him for a long stay in a mental institution :mad:

[nismaratwork]

Well either way. On a military base to graffiti a bathroom. Let me put it to you this way. Graffiti in bathrooms on a military base is not common, and there was nothing else wriiten on any wals..

THAT is the biggest issue for me... graffiti on a base bathroom shows a real lack of self-control that I hope was the result of a civilian worker and not a soldier.

[nismaratwork]

If that makes you feel better, disrespect and lies about president that was elected by the nation are not only US thing. Twin of our deceased president lost election and things that he is saying right now about our new president qualify him for a long stay in a mental institution :mad:

Yeesh, it's been weird just watching from the outside, within Poland it must be a truly strange experience.

[Ivan Seeking]

Nixon lied and cheated, but he was effective in some ways. I respect the parts of him that worked, pity the parts that went nuts, and have no respect for the lies and deceit around Cambodia, Vietnam, and of course Watergate...

There are lies, and there are damned lies! Political spin often crosses the line from spin, to fact-changing. I never like to see it, but, imo, this happens with all politicians. It is a matter of magnitude and significance. For example, lying about some poorly chosen words in a political campaign is to be expected. Lying about threats to the nation, or claiming it a certainty that Saddam has stockpiles of wmds, is quite another matter.

As for Obama: He has already accomplished more than most Presidents do in two terms of office. Health Care reform alone is a huge accomplishment; a problem that we've been trying to address for 100 years - since Teddy Roosevelt! Not to mention his heroic efforts to save the economy - the bailouts and stimulus package. These were historic in their magnitude. And Obama was wise enough, and brave enough, to listen to the depression-era experts, and to ignore the Fox polls, the tea drinkers, and the extreme-right Republicans. We haven't seen as much recovery as we want to see, esp wrt unemployment, but he stopped the collapse, and we have seen dramatic improvements in many sectors of the economy. For example, between March of 2009, and now, the Dow has gained about 53%! That is phenomenonal growth. The GDP has gone from a negative, to a mediocre positive, and get this:

We have seen more [net] private sector jobs added under Obama, than during the entire Bush presidency. Just last month, we added 60,000 private sector jobs,

In the end, under Bush, we lost about 600,000 private sector jobs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama did what was best for the country, while knowing full well that it could cost him a second term in office. However, I am highly confident that he will serve two terms. I think that by 2012, to a much greater extent than now, we will begin to reap the benefits of his intellect, wisdom, and skill.

[Newai]

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama did what was best for the country, while knowing full well that it could cost him a second term in office. However, I am highly confident that he will serve two terms. I think that by 2012, to a much greater extent than now, we will begin to reap the benefits of his intellect, wisdom, and skill.

I like Obama. I like him a lot. But I have reservation with the credit you give him. The recession is ending, so wouldn't 60,000 jobs added have happened anyway? How can anyone say these improvements wouldn't have happened had Bush stayed in office another term or two?

And another term for him would be reassuring for other reasons I have, but given the joke that was McCain and PALIN!, I am not so confident he'll be voted in again without another joke running against him.

[nismaratwork]

There are lies, and there are damned lies! Political spin often crosses the line from spin, to fact-changing. I never like to see it, but, imo, this happens with all politicians. It is a matter of magnitude and significance. For example, lying about some poorly chosen words in a political campaign is to be expected. Lying about threats to the nation, or claiming it a certainty that Saddam has stockpiles of wmds, is quite another matter.

As for Obama: He has already accomplished more than most Presidents do in two terms of office. Health Care reform alone is a huge accomplishment; a problem that we've been trying to address for 100 years - since Teddy Roosevelt! Not to mention his heroic efforts to save the economy - the bailouts and stimulus package. These were historic in their magnitude. And Obama was wise enough, and brave enough, to listen to the depression-era experts, and to ignore the Fox polls, the tea drinkers, and the extreme-right Republicans. We haven't seen as much recovery as we want to see, esp wrt unemployment, but he stopped the collapse, and we have seen dramatic improvements in many sectors of the economy. For example, between March of 2009, and now, the Dow has gained about 53%! That is phenomenonal growth. The GDP has gone from a negative, to a mediocre positive, and get this:

We have seen more [net] private sector jobs added under Obama, than during the entire Bush presidency. Just last month, we added 60,000 private sector jobs,

In the end, under Bush, we lost about 600,000 private sector jobs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama did what was best for the country, while knowing full well that it could cost him a second term in office. However, I am highly confident that he will serve two terms. I think that by 2012, to a much greater extent than now, we will begin to reap the benefits of his intellect, wisdom, and skill.

Errrr... you may or may not have valid points, but in the context of this thread the lies in question are so egregious (he's a secret muslim, death panels, etc...) that we don't need to enter the realm of anything substantial. Beyond that, I'm not going to debate the worth of this president before he even hits mid-term, and not in this thread.

[Ivan Seeking]

Errrr... you may or may not have valid points, but in the context of this thread the lies in question are so egregious (he's a secret muslim, death panels, etc...) that we don't need to enter the realm of anything substantial. Beyond that, I'm not going to debate the worth of this president before he even hits mid-term, and not in this thread.

Obama... seems to be somewhat less than he advertised, but that's politics as usual...

I don't agree. So far, more or less, he is just what I had hoped for. I don't consider Republican ideological stonewalling to be a failure of bipartisanship on Obama's part. The Republicans just haven't come to terms with the fact that they have no viable economic platform - been there done that, and look what it got us!

Note that calling him a liar is not one of the most egregious claims. Also, imo, it is no less a misrepresentation of the facts to understate his achievements already, as it is to misrepresent the facts about him or his beliefs. He has already marked his place in history. Beyond reforming health care, in all likelihood, he was highly instrumental in preventing a global economic disaster of an unprecedented scale. The biggest lesson from the Depression was the need for massive government spending, in times of crisis. Roosevelt didn't spend nearly enough, so it finally took WWII [a massive government spending program] before we fully recovered. That separates the recovery from the crash by about fifteen years.

Anyone up for 15 years like 2008/2009?

[airborne18]

I don't agree. So far, more or less, he is just what I had hoped for. I don't consider Republican ideological stonewalling to be a failure of bipartisanship on Obama's part. The Republicans just haven't come to terms with the fact that they have no viable economic platform - been there done that, and look what it got us!

Note that calling him a liar is not one of the most egregious claims. Also, imo, it is no less a misrepresentation of the facts to understate his achievements already, as it is to misrepresent the facts about him or his beliefs. He has already marked his place in history. Beyond reforming health care, in all likelihood, he was highly instrumental in preventing a global economic disaster of an unprecedented scale. The biggest lesson from the Depression was the need for massive government spending, in times of crisis. Roosevelt didn't spend nearly enough, so it finally took WWII [a massive government spending program] before we fully recovered. That separates the recovery from the crash by about fifteen years.

Anyone up for 15 years like 2008/2009?

Ivan I still think they could have done more with the Health Care bill. We will see in a few years, and I have hope, but they should not have backed off the government option. Or at least revamped medicaid, that would have been a slick way to backdoor a government backed plan that actually worked.

[nismaratwork]

I don't agree. So far, more or less, he is just what I had hoped for. I don't consider Republican ideological stonewalling to be a failure of bipartisanship on Obama's part. The Republicans just haven't come to terms with the fact that they have no viable economic platform - been there done that, and look what it got us!

Note that calling him a liar is not one of the most egregious claims. Also, imo, it is no less a misrepresentation of the facts to understate his achievements already, as it is to misrepresent the facts about him or his beliefs. He has already marked his place in history. Beyond reforming health care, in all likelihood, he was highly instrumental in preventing a global economic disaster of an unprecedented scale. The biggest lesson from the Depression was the need for massive government spending, in times of crisis. Roosevelt didn't spend nearly enough, so it finally took WWII [a massive government spending program] before we fully recovered. That separates the recovery from the crash by about fifteen years.

Anyone up for 15 years like 2008/2009?

I realize that this is a small issue, but what about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? The economy is complex, nuanced, and hard to appreciate in anything except retrospect... so lets take a moment for smaller issues. He caved in HARD in that area, and most of all he's failed to control a majority in both houses. He could not have more power without total ownership of the senate, yet he is unable or unwilling to spend political capital to draw lines for congress. Maybe this is just the state of our current system, and we're doomed to an endless stalemate, but as the executive I think it's incumbent upon the president to make the case to the American people which then forces the hand of congress. Far from that, he's let himself be smacked around rhetorically to the point where democrats (already yellow in the belly) won't consider most of what he wishes to do.

I also agree with airborne18 that the health care bill was more of a failure in compromise than a success to be touted. Take that away, and he's been little more than a punching bag for the right, which is now going to harm the left in midterm elections. Fabulous... :cries:

[mugaliens]

...slurs... ...Bush... ...betrayal of our country... ...Fox Noise...

All I hear here is noise and slurs.

Is Obama a liar? Probably

Ah. I appreciate your being willing to entertain the thought that our CIC isn't above bending the truth.

I don't think anyone in politics can survive by always telling the truth

I think they can, have, and will continue to do so.

Does this diminish his role in history as one of our greatest Presidents?

Who are you talking about? Eisenhower? Lincoln? Washington?

[Proton Soup]

gotta love the "we can do it because we're better than you" defense

[Hepth]

I'm not for labeling Obama as one of our "greatest Presidents" yet (and I'm a fairly strong democrat), but I find it quite annoying when I see the republican party fighting policies every step of the way, with every ounce of their strength only to go home and say "see, he's not living up to the things he said he would do, he hasn't done anything he said he would."
What would be the word for that, not hypocritical but something else?


BTW: I feel its the GOP's right to fight tooth and nail for what they want, thats the way the world works, I just dislike the politics of politics.

[Jimmy Snyder]

Yeah it is politics, but there is a time and place.
I agree. The bathroom at the BX of an airforce base is not the proper place to write that Obama is a liar. Almost any other place would have been much better.

[nismaratwork]

I agree. The bathroom at the BX of an airforce base is not the proper place to write that Obama is a liar. Almost any other place would have been much better.

The place, and the statement make it inappropriate, but when congressmen are shouting that to the president during a speech, I don't know what people expect. What concerns me, beyond the allegation itself, is that the person who wrote it is damned coward who felt the way to spread their message was bathroom graffiti. That is PATHETIC.

I'm not for labeling Obama as one of our "greatest Presidents" yet (and I'm a fairly strong democrat), but I find it quite annoying when I see the republican party fighting policies every step of the way, with every ounce of their strength only to go home and say "see, he's not living up to the things he said he would do, he hasn't done anything he said he would."
What would be the word for that, not hypocritical but something else?


BTW: I feel its the GOP's right to fight tooth and nail for what they want, thats the way the world works, I just dislike the politics of politics.

No. We're an indirectly federated republic, which means we the people depend on our representatives to fight for OUR interests, not their own jobs and personal agendas.

[Hepth]

No. We're an indirectly federated republic, which means we the people depend on our representatives to fight for OUR interests, not their own jobs and personal agendas.

Ah, let me clarify the "what they want". I naively intended that to mean "what they believe is best for our country" as if that was what the goal of going into politics was...

[lisab]

Ah, let me clarify the "what they want". I naively intended that to mean "what they believe is best for our country" as if that was what the goal of going into politics was...

In reality, I think you had it correct the first time.

[Gokul43201]

We have seen more [net] private sector jobs added under Obama, than during the entire Bush presidency. Just last month, we added 60,000 private sector jobs,

In the end, under Bush, we lost about 600,000 private sector jobs.I believe that's a poor statistic - it provides no good comparison of average economic conditions. It takes a little more diligence and effort to do a reasonably meaningful comparison.

[nismaratwork]

In reality, I think you had it correct the first time.

I agree wholeheartedly, much to my own dismay...

I wish you were right Hepth, I just don't think that's what happens. Lisab is right, as she often is.

[WhoWee]

There are lies, and there are damned lies! Political spin often crosses the line from spin, to fact-changing. I never like to see it, but, imo, this happens with all politicians. It is a matter of magnitude and significance. For example, lying about some poorly chosen words in a political campaign is to be expected. Lying about threats to the nation, or claiming it a certainty that Saddam has stockpiles of wmds, is quite another matter.

As for Obama: He has already accomplished more than most Presidents do in two terms of office. Health Care reform alone is a huge accomplishment; a problem that we've been trying to address for 100 years - since Teddy Roosevelt! Not to mention his heroic efforts to save the economy - the bailouts and stimulus package. These were historic in their magnitude. And Obama was wise enough, and brave enough, to listen to the depression-era experts, and to ignore the Fox polls, the tea drinkers, and the extreme-right Republicans. We haven't seen as much recovery as we want to see, esp wrt unemployment, but he stopped the collapse, and we have seen dramatic improvements in many sectors of the economy. For example, between March of 2009, and now, the Dow has gained about 53%! That is phenomenonal growth. The GDP has gone from a negative, to a mediocre positive, and get this:

We have seen more [net] private sector jobs added under Obama, than during the entire Bush presidency. Just last month, we added 60,000 private sector jobs,

In the end, under Bush, we lost about 600,000 private sector jobs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama did what was best for the country, while knowing full well that it could cost him a second term in office. However, I am highly confident that he will serve two terms. I think that by 2012, to a much greater extent than now, we will begin to reap the benefits of his intellect, wisdom, and skill.

Ivan, are you going to support ANYTHING you post today - just wondering?

By the way, how many of those census jobs that were counted in the Spring did you just remove from your count in this posting (wasn't it a little over 100,000?).

[Gokul43201]

By the way, how many of those census jobs that were counted in the Spring did you just remove from your count in this posting (wasn't it a little over 100,000?).I don't believe census jobs belong in the "private sector".

[WhoWee]

I don't believe census jobs belong in the "private sector".

They don't. I just wanted to point out how selective Ivan is with his "facts". Ivan completely ignored the bad news from the jobs report he referenced.

[nismaratwork]

They don't. I just wanted to point out how selective Ivan is with his "facts". Ivan completely ignored the bad news from the jobs report he referenced.

You want to draw attention to how Ivan is selective with is facts by... being selective with your facts?

[WhoWee]

You want to draw attention to how Ivan is selective with is facts by... being selective with your facts? That's some kind of genius, or neurosyphilis; one or the other

"Neurosyphillis"...that's nice. Please read my post in context. ONCE AGAIN, I asked Ivan to support his posts (he still hasn't) and pointed out that he was touting job growth in a period of actual job losses.
Now I'll ask you to support your personal attack on me.

[nismaratwork]

"Neurosyphillis"...that's nice. Please read my post in context. ONCE AGAIN, I asked Ivan to support his posts (he still hasn't) and pointed out that he was touting job growth in a period of actual job losses.
Now I'll ask you to support your personal attack on me.

Um... I like Ivan, even if I think he's on the liberal end of the spectrum even by my standards, and believe he deserves a bit more respect than you're giving him. Obviously the neurosyphilis comment was meant to be factitious (as opposed to a realistic insult), but it accurately expresses my feelings on the matter and the "logic" you've employed in challenging Ivan. On the other hand, while rare, late-stage syphilis does does occur... :smile: ... oh, and and see Gokul's post for the reasons for my questions as to dementia.

[Borg]

The GOP has resorted to posting their new flashes on bathroom walls? Has FOX started outsourcing the news? :bugeye:

[nismaratwork]

The GOP has resorted to posting their new flashes on bathroom walls? Has FOX started outsourcing the news? :bugeye:

:rofl:

[WhoWee]

Um... I like Ivan, even if I think he's on the liberal end of the spectrum even by my standards, and believe he deserves a bit more respect than you're giving him. Obviously the neurosyphilis comment was meant to be factitious (as opposed to a realistic insult), but it accurately expresses my feelings on the matter and the "logic" you've employed in challenging Ivan. On the other hand, while rare, late-stage syphilis does does occur... :smile: ... oh, and and see Gokul's post for the reasons for my questions as to dementia.

Once again, Ivan still hasn't supported his comments or provided a link for his "facts". I believe that Ivan should be held to the same standards as everyone else. As for your personal attack on me - enough is enough - grow up.

[Hepth]

They don't. I just wanted to point out how selective Ivan is with his "facts". Ivan completely ignored the bad news from the jobs report he referenced.

So are you saying that by only looking at the positive private sector, he is missing making a point about how there were a large number of government jobs created, then lost, and he should somehow include those? Unless you're somehow implying that all the census workers were unemployed when they began work, and then immediately once done moved to private sector to inflate those numbers, I'm not sure what your point is.

[FlexGunship]

Health Care reform alone is a huge accomplishment; a problem that we've been trying to address for 100 years - since Teddy Roosevelt! Not to mention his heroic efforts to save the economy - the bailouts and stimulus package. These were historic in their magnitude. And Obama was wise enough, and brave enough, to listen to the depression-era experts...

Not all of us agree that these are two "brilliant" moves. Unfortunately, the full negative impact of the healthcare reform fiasco won't be known for a while, so it's a little useless to argue now. Don't equate my position to saying no reform was needed, I'm not saying that. But more government involvement is unlikely to lower the cost to anyone. More people will fall below the poverty line in the long run.

My bigger gripe is claiming that, firstly, the bailout was an Obama program. That was clearly designed an implemented during the Bush administration. I'm not even sure how that's up for debate. You could argue that Pelosi was the one who pushed it, but certainly not Obama. Secondly, the stimulus package can't possibly be shown to have helped the economy at all. The same arguments used to say it helped, could be used to say it significantly slowed down the recovery.

Feel free to disagree, but artificially creating billions of dollars worth of temporary jobs can't really be helpful in the long run. Those people will be unemployed again when that road is done being repaired, and their taxes will go up to pay for it.

[nismaratwork]

So are you saying that by only looking at the positive private sector, he is missing making a point about how there were a large number of government jobs created, then lost, and he should somehow include those? Unless you're somehow implying that all the census workers were unemployed when they began work, and then immediately once done moved to private sector to inflate those numbers, I'm not sure what your point is.

I haven't noticed that WhoWee is encumbered by having a point, or facts. If I had to guess, it seems that he has a personal issue with Ivan, and believes that Ivan is not held to the same standard others are. Having read some arguments between Ivan and Russ, I find that preposterous.

WhoWee: My syphilis comment still amuses me, so no, I think I'll stick with it. I'm not thrilled with the state of the economy, but your argument with Ivan isn't based on your offering much that is contrary to his argument, you're just calling his credibility into question. I don't agree with Ivan's OPINION, which he presents as opinion, but I don't believe he's pulling facts out of thin are. Would you care to offer something concrete that isn't so easily cut to pieces (a la Hepth) to make a case against what he's said? If you offer something substantial I'd be happy to respond, but your one comment about these census jobs has already been... addressed... do you have anything else? I tend to agree with FLexGunship here; it's too early to make a call about the impact of current economic policies, especially health-care (Ivan), and stimulus jobs (you). In a thread about respect for the president and a very specific issue surrounding that, I just see you going after one individual; opinion vs. opinion.

[WhoWee]

I haven't noticed that WhoWee is encumbered by having a point, or facts. If I had to guess, it seems that he has a personal issue with Ivan, and believes that Ivan is not held to the same standard others are. Having read some arguments between Ivan and Russ, I find that preposterous.

WhoWee: My syphilis comment still amuses me, so no, I think I'll stick with it. I'm not thrilled with the state of the economy, but your argument with Ivan isn't based on your offering much that is contrary to his argument, you're just calling his credibility into question. I don't agree with Ivan's OPINION, which he presents as opinion, but I don't believe he's pulling facts out of thin are. Would you care to offer something concrete that isn't so easily cut to pieces (a la Hepth) to make a case against what he's said? If you offer something substantial I'd be happy to respond, but your one comment about these census jobs has already been... addressed... do you have anything else? I tend to agree with FLexGunship here; it's too early to make a call about the impact of current economic policies, especially health-care (Ivan), and stimulus jobs (you). In a thread about respect for the president and a very specific issue surrounding that, I just see you going after one individual; opinion vs. opinion.

Again, this began when I asked Ivan if he was going to support his post - and he still has not. If he posts a source for his "facts", I'll gladly respond to him. Otherwise, if you have a problem with my posts - report me and we'll see where it leads.

[nismaratwork]

Again, this began when I asked Ivan if he was going to support his post - and he still has not. If he posts a source for his "facts", I'll gladly respond to him. Otherwise, if you have a problem with my posts - report me and we'll see where it leads.

Report you for what, and to whom (Ivan is undoubtedly aware of this) and why? You seem excited out of all proportion here, and in doing so have dragged this thread off topic for nearly a page. You haven't done anything to me and Ivan is a moderator... so... yeah, have fun picking a fight with staff. I'm guessing he's ignoring you for the same reasons I'll proceed to do so now: a complete lack of interest in your posturing and sidetracking a decent thread. I don't suppose you have anything of substance to add regarding the OP?

Edit... I've reported post 34, for the simple reason that it has nothing to do with the OP or the thread, and suggested that you and Ivan take this to PM. I don't think you've broken any rules, just politeness, but you asked. I expect my comments may breach the rules in being construed as insulting rather than humorous, but if it gets this thread cleaned up for airborne, it's worth it.

[Char. Limit]

Again, this began when I asked Ivan if he was going to support his post - and he still has not. If he posts a source for his "facts", I'll gladly respond to him. Otherwise, if you have a problem with my posts - report me and we'll see where it leads.

Has Ivan even posted since you started yelling at him? How do you expect him to "support his post" when he hasn't even posted yet?

WhoWee, you have extremely high expectations for Ivan. You yell at us for "not holding him up to the same standard", but I think you hold him to a much higher standard than normal...

[nismaratwork]

Has Ivan even posted since you started yelling at him? How do you expect him to "support his post" when he hasn't even posted yet?

WhoWee, you have extremely high expectations for Ivan. You yell at us for "not holding him up to the same standard", but I think you hold him to a much higher standard than normal...

I believe he has a grudge... perhaps Ivan once held him to a standard he felt was unfair? Either way, this is still all off topic; staff needs to step in and clean up this thread; the last page is essentially dross.

[mugaliens]

I believe that's a poor statistic - it provides no good comparison of average economic conditions. It takes a little more diligence and effort to do a reasonably meaningful comparison.

I concur. Citing the "added 60,000 jobs last month" vs "lost 600,000 jobs during an 8-year presidential term" fails on several fronts, primarily comparing a very short-term snapshot to a long-term trend, and at two different places in our country's economic and political history. Attempting to associate either one with whoever's currently in office is even further amiss, violating all sorts of rules and principles underlying the field of statistics.

[ibnsos]

Has Ivan even posted since you started yelling at him? How do you expect him to "support his post" when he hasn't even posted yet?

WhoWee, you have extremely high expectations for Ivan. You yell at us for "not holding him up to the same standard", but I think you hold him to a much higher standard than normal...

This seems a bit bizzare, WhoWee has only posted toward Ivan once. His further posts were defences to attacks against him and didn't once imply Ivan was avoiding answering. I fail to see how requesting supporting evidence to claims made is out of line or holding anyone to a higher standard considering its the status quo on these forums.

If one person makes an unsupported claim and someone requests evidence the ball is in the unsupported claimer's court before it comes back to the requester.

[Char. Limit]

This seems a bit bizzare, WhoWee has only posted toward Ivan once. His further posts were defences to attacks against him and didn't once imply Ivan was avoiding answering. I fail to see how requesting supporting evidence to claims made is out of line or holding anyone to a higher standard considering its the status quo on these forums.

If one person makes an unsupported claim and someone requests evidence the ball is in the unsupported claimer's court before it comes back to the requester.

Every single post of WhoWee's included "which [Ivan] still has not supported". How can Ivan have supported if he didn't post? And why did WhoWee see fit to hammer the point that Ivan hasn't supported his post in EVERY single one of WhoWee's posts?

[Gokul43201]

Nevertheless, WhoWee is well within his rights in this forum to ask for sources for specific factual claims. It might help though, if he specified which particular claims needed citation; some are common knowledge, others not so much.

[Char. Limit]

Nevertheless, WhoWee is well within his rights in this forum to ask for sources for specific factual claims. It might help though, if he specified which particular claims needed citation; some are common knowledge, others not so much.

I'm not saying he isn't. I'm saying that he should let Ivan post before complaining again and again and again about how Ivan...


still hasn't supported his comments or provided a link for his "facts".

Let him post, at least. THEN you can complain about not addressing the issue that WhoWee brought forth.

Get what I mean?

[nismaratwork]

Surely we can all agree that this debate for the last page and half is no longer of any service to the OP, and in that there is no "right" to be had here. By all 'rights', this thread should be cleaned, and WhoWee can take this up with Ivan in a separate thread if he desires it, or in a PM for a more mature approach. I'm well within my rights to demand citations for every single statement of fact made on the site, but I don't because that is just another way of hindering discourse. It is one thing to challenge a given assertion, and another to impune the very standard to which any or all of us are held.

Respectfully Gokul, while I disagree with the content of Ivan's post, the more egregious error here is letting your (former) colleague be bashed about because (I'm guessing) a member is peeved at prior treatment or statements.

Can we now get back to the topic of the thread, or stop posting now?! It was, before all of this, an interesting exchange involving at least 2 contemporary vets.

[turbo]

My dad is a veteran of the 82nd Airborne. He suffered a bad ankle-injury in the ETO,and after spending a bit of time in a field hospital, he served out the end of the war as a mechanic in a motor pool attached to an artillery group. Guys his age are routinely used as props in photo-ops for politicians, as they want to publicly award medals to WWII vets and take the credit for doing so. My father and maybe 3-4 other veterans in his little town won't even return their calls. The VA has treated people like my father with little respect and no shame.

There has been an improvement in the past couple of years, as VA office-trailers move from town to town, letting vets like my father get access to basic medical care without have to drive 150-250 miles round-trip to get to an old outmoded VA hospital near the state capitol. They deserve better. Can we make that happen?

[nismaratwork]

My dad is a veteran of the 82nd Airborne. He suffered a bad ankle-injury in the ETO,and after spending a bit of time in a field hospital, he served out the end of the war as a mechanic in a motor pool attached to an artillery group. Guys his age are routinely used as props in photo-ops for politicians, as they want to publicly award medals to WWII vets and take the credit for doing so. My father and maybe 3-4 other veterans in his little town won't even return their calls. The VA has treated people like my father with little respect and no shame.

There has been an improvement in the past couple of years, as VA office-trailers move from town to town, letting vets like my father get access to basic medical care without have to drive 150-250 miles round-trip to get to an old outmoded VA hospital near the state capitol. They deserve better. Can we make that happen?

This is, sadly, an area where I think the private sector has to step in, especially with the rise in TBIs. There is a center being built to treat just that, but for some reason that I don't grasp, people seem content to let young men and women fight, die, and be wounded and then they do their best to ignore them. I think it has something to do with wanting to ignore the realities of war and its aftermath... and I'm not sure how you fight that. Maybe the graffiti was just misplaced, but an expression of that frustration with the civilian administrations that don't do much to help the few who really put it on the line.

[turbo]

Back in my dad's day, it wasn't just "the few" though. Lots of kids, young people, and middle-aged people laid it all on the line to stop fascism. The contributions of males of that time are widely recognized (if not rewarded), but we should remember the contributions of many thousands of women who served in support and con-combat positions, too. The mother of some of my dearest classmates was an officer in the Navy during WWII - the first-generation daughter of Lebanese immigrants.

[nismaratwork]

Back in my dad's day, it wasn't just "the few" though. Lots of kids, young people, and middle-aged people laid it all on the line to stop fascism. The contributions of males of that time are widely recognized (if not rewarded), but we should remember the contributions of many thousands of women who served in support and con-combat positions, too. The mother of some of my dearest classmates was an officer in the Navy during WWII - the first-generation daughter of Lebanese immigrants.

Yeah, my grandfather was a Naval officer in the pacific theater, but you know, from the stories I heard from him, it changed him too. The difference is that people who were maimed didn't often survive, and mental scars are harder to detect, especially then. I'm not sure it was better then, and our armed forces are better trained now... we just need the public to appreciate that whether or not they support a given war, veterans didn't make that choice. Soldiers follow lawful orders, and if you can't respect that, at least support them when they're hurt just as fellow human beings.

Who knows... maybe without a feeling of victory or imminent threat it's hard to get more than yellow ribbons on cars moving.

[Dennis_Murphy]

No. We're an indirectly federated republic, which means we the people depend on our representatives to fight for OUR interests, not their own jobs and personal agendas.Each elected person is chosen by the people for who they think will best fight for their interests. It's their fault for re-electing the same dirty/corrupt/self immersed/ignorant people over and over again.

-----

In any case I believe the topic of the discussion is supposed to be about showing Respect for our President, which we should have (and show) regardless if we are in the military or a civilian. We should respect Obama, just as we would have respected any other president that is elected into office. That said there is also unnecessarily slanderous remarks about George Bush. Regardless if we like him. Regardless if we agree with him. We should still respect him. He was our President, our leader, not common garbage like how some refer to him as. The bathroom message was unnecessary and condemnable.

[nismaratwork]

Each elected person is chosen by the people for who they think will best fight for their interests. It's their fault for re-electing the same dirty/corrupt/self immersed/ignorant people over and over again.


I never said that it wasn't, although I think you're oversimplifying the issue more than a little. It still doesn't change what I said, or why.
-----

In any case I believe the topic of the discussion is supposed to be about showing Respect for our President, which we should have (and show) regardless if we are in the military or a civilian. We should respect Obama, just as we would have respected any other president that is elected into office. That said there is also unnecessarily slanderous remarks about George Bush. Regardless if we like him. Regardless if we agree with him. We should still respect him. He was our President, our leader, not common garbage like how some refer to him as. The bathroom message was unnecessary and condemnable.

I agree that respect should be the decorum, if not the heartfelt belief. You can't make people respect someone, but you can respect the office and not the man, and even then place the man in the proper context; whatever Obama is or is not, he's not common garbage or anything like it. Calling Richard Nixon a liar wasn't disrespect, it was a fact, but calling him trash would be. Calling W. a disaster for the country isn't disrespect, but saying that he was retarded would be. When we cross from criticism to insults, that is when we're ****ing up, civilian or military as you say.

[lisab]

Each elected person is chosen by the people for who they think will best fight for their interests. It's their fault for re-electing the same dirty/corrupt/self immersed/ignorant people over and over again.

-----

In any case I believe the topic of the discussion is supposed to be about showing Respect for our President, which we should have (and show) regardless if we are in the military or a civilian. We should respect Obama, just as we would have respected any other president that is elected into office. That said there is also unnecessarily slanderous remarks about George Bush. Regardless if we like him. Regardless if we agree with him. We should still respect him. He was our President, our leader, not common garbage like how some refer to him as. The bathroom message was unnecessary and condemnable.

That sounds like something John Wayne (who was Republican) said about John Kennedy winning the election, "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job."

Moderate sentiments from 50 years ago seem so reasonable and refreshing.

[Gokul43201]

More insight from Newt Gingrich:"What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]?" Gingrich asked in an interview with the National Review Online, Web site of the prominent conservative magazine. "That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior."

"This is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he is now president," added Gingrich, who is considering running for president in 2012.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129851689

[OmCheeto]

More insight from Newt Gingrich:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129851689

Speaking of Newt, and the disrespect about to be heaped upon our next president.(Hopefully a Republican this time. :tongue2:) What's the deal with this:

Fox News has almost every Republican presidential candidate for 2012 on its payroll. Are they the Kingmakers?

The fair and balanced network has a little problem, I believe, and one that the media never seem to address. If they are just another news organization and are defended by Howard Kurtz and Jack Tapper as such, then why do they employ almost the entire field of Republican presidential candidates for 2012?

At this point in time the leading candidates are:

Mitt Romney
Mike Huckabee
Sarah Palin
Newt Gingrich

So far Romney isn't on the Fox News dole yet, but how long will it be before he gets his own time slot in some form before 2012 rolls along? Huckabee has his own one hour show on weekends, Sarah Palin juts got hired and is making the rounds on the FNC shows so she can be trained for the future, and Newt is a fixture on the network as the conservative basher-in-chief and thought to be the next Reagan by some of their hosts.

Food for thought.

But back to the topic:

OK I am Disabled Veteran and once a month I have a Paratrooper meeting in Washington DC. This month it was on 9/11.

We stopped at Andrews Airforce base to shop at the BX and eat. I use the bathroom at the BX and someone wrote "Obama's a Liar'.

I am not a fan of Obama, but at a military base? He is still the commander-in-chief, I don't buy that "Hes not my President" b/s that the angry people always say.

I just don't get it. Yeah it is politics, but there is a time and place.

I was watching Bill Clinton on the Daily Show last night, and he said that people were upset about what's going on with the state of affairs of the nation, and rightly so.

As such, people will say mean and nasty things, in a finger pointing kind of way, to relieve their anxiety.

That's all that "Obama's a Liar" scribble was.

And as far as being on a military base? Well.... I was in the navy, and we did things our way. We mounted big, um, what the hell do you call those note pads the size of your TV screen? Flip boards? Anyways, we mounted one in each restroom stall so people could scribble away all their twitter thoughts as they did their dirty business. It would be fun, 30 years on, to have one of those sheets and see what mindless posts the 20 year old's were writing back then. Reagan was in office. Yes, it would be fun. But I'm sure it would appear mostly as drivel at this point.

[Dennis_Murphy]

I never said that it wasn't, although I think you're oversimplifying the issue more than a little.I would ask how, if you would be willing to explain?



I agree that respect should be the decorum, if not the heartfelt belief. You can't make people respect someone, but you can respect the office and not the man, and even then place the man in the proper context; whatever Obama is or is not, he's not common garbage or anything like it. Calling Richard Nixon a liar wasn't disrespect, it was a fact, but calling him trash would be. Calling W. a disaster for the country isn't disrespect, but saying that he was retarded would be. When we cross from criticism to insults, that is when we're ****ing up, civilian or military as you say.It's not just the office that the man is occupying, that's the respect you would give to your boss in the workplace. It's the very will of the people of the United States that he was chosen to lead, that is something that should be respected. Regardless of whether or not you like the man, what he did, or how he behaved in office he was still chosen by the people of the United States of America. Now I am not saying that one has to respect him, just that they should. I respect George W. Bush even now that he's out of office because he was our president. Do I respect his policies? Not so much, but that doesn't influence the respect for the will of people.

[nismaratwork]

I would ask how, if you would be willing to explain?



It's not just the office that the man is occupying, that's the respect you would give to your boss in the workplace. It's the very will of the people of the United States that he was chosen to lead, that is something that should be respected. Regardless of whether or not you like the man, what he did, or how he behaved in office he was still chosen by the people of the United States of America. Now I am not saying that one has to respect him, just that they should. I respect George W. Bush even now that he's out of office because he was our president. Do I respect his policies? Not so much, but that doesn't influence the respect for the will of people.

To your first question, which is a fair one, I would say that history shows people can be easily swayed and are not all equally equipped to form their own opinions. I know hardcore right-wingers and left-wingers whom I disagree with vehemently, but who I know had a good education and come by their views, not as a result of endless bombardment by a particular party and billions spent on advertisements, but through deep convictions that I simply do not share.

I've met far more people who can only recite decades old talking points from each party, and who don't have the education or wit to truly examine what's going on. That's just one facet of the issue, ignoring the role of money in campaigning, Gerrymandering, and outright cheating (more in the past than now). Bottom line: you have to be educated, intelligent enough, not completely a product of your particular region, and AWARE of what your best interests are to not make the same mistakes over and over again.

To your second point, I simply disagree. I have to OBEY the boss in the workplace, I don't have to respect him or her. In the same vein, if that boss is supremely good at their job, but is a complete jack***, then I do have to respect their ability, but not their personality. I don't believe in "should" in this situation, beyond respect for the office, and even that I see as a means to an end, which is that civil order and our form of government depends on that. The reason it's so disturbing to see libel on a bathroom wall on an AFB, is that this man is their CIC! He's not my boss, he's my public servant, one who gets a chance to work as that for another four years based on review of his first four. If you're in the military, you took an oath and made the choices to carry out the orders of the CIC, and I don't see how that duty is compatible with calling him a liar.

As a civilian, if you want to chant: "hey hey, L B J, how many boys did you kill today?" that's your right. If you're a soldier, it is NOT your right, but as a vet, it is. Why respect the office then, if not just for practical reasons?... respect for yourself, and your fellow countrymen and women. He's our leader, as you said, and unless he's just one long outrage, then respecting the office is respect for our system of government. I may not like it very much, but there isn't one I'd prefer to have over me, so there's that. I also respect a number of people who believe as you do: the President deserves respect, period, and I like and respect enough of those people that I would never be a coward and write graffiti about him.

Let me be clear, I respect Nixon, even though he was deeply flawed and his behavior in Vietnam was horrendous; he did some good things. I respect Reagan, even though I personally found him to be relatively destructive in a variety of ways. I respect Bush Sr. without particularly liking him, and Clinton even though he apparently had a limited amount of respect for himself. I respect Obama, although I feel he's somewhat ineffective, but I do NOT respect Bush W. ... who's legacy is the death of foreign (to me) civilians, and American (and coalition) soldiers for a lie in Iraq. Forget the economic devastation, in a better world he would have been impeached and hanged along with his cabinet.

I imagine depression era people would feel much the same about Hoover... some people are not respectable, they're idiots or criminals and bring literally nothing to the table. We've had a very few, but to pretend that they deserve the respect a functional president who was elected honestly does, is to me, a kind of disrespect for the office all on its own.

[Dennis_Murphy]

I was merely discussing on a matter of principle, of course it is your right to say or do what ever you wish to do. I did not intend to spark a debate. What you say has merit and I respect it whether or not I agree with it. Though I do disagree with hanging George Bush and his Cabinet.

[nismaratwork]

I was merely discussing on a matter of principle, of course it is your right to say or do what ever you wish to do. I did not intend to spark a debate. What you say has merit and I respect it whether or not I agree with it. Though I do disagree with hanging George Bush and his Cabinet.

Now, I should be clear, the "hanging" bit was hyperbole... actually so was the impeachment part. I just hate the guy and have no respect for him.. just want to make that clear. I understood what you were saying to be a matter of principle, and one which I have a different take on. I don't see that both of us can't stand on our own principle without a pyrophoric reaction... they're not so different that I don't respect where you stand.

[Char. Limit]

they're not so different that I don't respect where you stand.

This line just increased my respect for you by about 100x. I completely agree here, and I wish more people would think this way.

[mheslep]

[...]We stopped at Andrews Airforce base to shop at the BX and eat. I use the bathroom at the BX and someone wrote "Obama's a Liar'.

I am not a fan of Obama, but at a military base? He is still the commander-in-chief, I don't buy that "Hes not my President" b/s that the angry people always say.

I just don't get it. Yeah it is politics, but there is a time and place.

[...] and I like and respect enough of those people that I would never be a coward and write graffiti about him.[...]

[...] but I do NOT respect Bush W. ... who's legacy is the death of foreign (to me) civilians, and American (and coalition) soldiers for a lie in Iraq. Forget the economic devastation, in a better world he would have been impeached and hanged along with his cabinet.
[...]
.. some people are not respectable, they're idiots or criminals and bring literally nothing to the table. We've had a very few, but to pretend that they deserve the respect a functional president who was elected honestly does, is to me, a kind of disrespect for the office all on its own. [...]
[highlights mine] Well there you go Airborne - the same kind of rationalization that no doubt resulted in the bathroom wall scrawl. If you want to persuade people to do otherwise here is your chance.

[nismaratwork]

[highlights mine] Well there you go Airborne - the same kind of rationalization that no doubt resulted in the bathroom wall scrawl. If you want to persuade people to do otherwise here is your chance.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that because I indulged in what I have called hyperbole in a previous post, you think I would sink to bathroom-graffiti?!

I'll be clear: I'd happily tell 2 former presidents to go to hell (W. and Carter) to their faces, and admit to that here or to anyone in a face-to-face discussion. I am NOT going to disseminate my personal view of the men via bathroom stall, internet blog, or even a protest. Hell, part of my anger is the shame that W. brought to the office during his presidency, and the shame Carter is (not to ignore many good things he's been involved in) AFTER his time in office. I've stated clearly that respect for the office of the president is important to some for symbolic reasons, but is important to ALL for practical reasons, especially in a military setting. I would appreciate it if you don't cherrypick less than a handful of what I've said, ignoring in one case (the bolded one) what I said: ow, I should be clear, the "hanging" bit was hyperbole... actually so was the impeachment part. I just hate the guy and have no respect for him.. just want to make that clear. I understood what you were saying to be a matter of principle, and one which I have a different take on. I don't see that both of us can't stand on our own principle without a pyrophoric reaction... they're not so different that I don't respect where you stand.

I thought that was quite clear. It's one thing to not respect someone, and another to be libelous or slanderous. For instance, I don't say, "Bush W. wanted oil so he started a war", not in the least because I don't believe it and no proof exists. I don't say that I think Carter is an anti-Semite, just that I violently disagree with his views on Israel. Do you grasp the difference? I could say that I think Obama is an ineffective president, but just the comment "he lies", is pure disrespect. I can't tell if you haven't followed the conversation, or if you're trying to make a point for the hell of it. I've read many of your posts, so I know that failing to grasp something is unlikely, and thus I'm inclined to be insulted by your characterization of my views.

[mheslep]

Let me get this straight, you're saying that because I indulged in what I have called hyperbole in a previous post, you think I would sink to bathroom-graffiti?!

I'll be clear: I'd happily tell 2 former presidents to go to hell (W. and Carter) to their faces, and admit to that here or to anyone in a face-to-face discussion. I am NOT going to disseminate my personal view of the men via bathroom stall.What's the difference? As you know, you don't have the opportunity to talk to either face to face, and this internet discussion board is likewise anonymous, essentially writing on a wall. In any case your answer to the OP's call for respect for a President in general (not Obama, Bush, whoever) is clear: no.

[mheslep]

Let me get this straight, you're saying that because I indulged in what I have called hyperbole in a previous post,Ok, so if the original bathroom "Obama lies" poet to which the OP referred had come back and post scripted, "the above is hyperbole", then no harm done?

[nismaratwork]

What's the difference? As you know, you don't have the opportunity to talk to either face to face, and this internet discussion board is likewise anonymous, essentially writing on a wall. In any case your answer to the OP's call for respect for a President in general (not Obama, Bush, whoever) is clear: no.

Many people meet current and former presidents in person... hell, the audience of The Daily Show was within shouting distance of Carter and Clinton within a week. I don't think shouting, "go to hell" is such a stretch in that situation, especially if a member of congress can shout, "you lie!" during a presidential SPEECH. Yeah, you're going to get moved out of the set, but it's hardly going to stop them.

You don't have to take me at my word that I'm not the bathroom graffiti type, or prone to libel/slander. The fact is that you're taking 4 or 5 sentences out of a long discussion and at the end of it, setting me up as your personal target. So... < >. :smile: See? Very easy, and I could be sanctioned for saying that on PF, anonymous or not, although I'm just trying to make a point...

I would add, that given my absolute hatred of Bush W. simply wanting to tell him to go to hell IS respectful compared to the depth of feeling I have regarding the man. If he were just a manager of a company I worked for, and had a similar effect on that company as I believe Bush did on the country, I'd be more inclined to say or do more. The fact is that I DO believe as a rule there should be a standard of respect for POTUS, but there are naturally exceptions to every rule.

[nismaratwork]

Ok, so if the original bathroom "Obama lies" poet to which the OP referred had come back and post scripted, "the above is hyperbole", then no harm done?

That's more logical fallacy than actual question mheslep, because I'm accountable within the PF community for what I say... bathroom graffiti is TRULY anonymous.

[ThomasT]

In any case I believe the topic of the discussion is supposed to be about showing Respect for our President, which we should have (and show) regardless if we are in the military or a civilian. We should respect Obama, just as we would have respected any other president that is elected into office. That said there is also unnecessarily slanderous remarks about George Bush. Regardless if we like him. Regardless if we agree with him. We should still respect him. He was our President, our leader, not common garbage like how some refer to him as. The bathroom message was unnecessary and condemnable.Hi Dennis, I agree with you about the bathroom message. I disagree with you about respecting public officials who we know have broken the public covenant. Bush should be spending the rest of his life in prison. I'm ok with hanging him also.

Regarding public officials in general, remember that our first duty as citizens of this republic is to mistrust our elected officials. If we fail to use the tools that the founding fathers have given us, like impeachment, because we think, mistakenly, that using these tools is evidence that our system isn't working, then our system isn't working.