Another hostage beheaded..

[graphic7]

Well, I know this is becoming pretty common, but I think creating a thread is the least that can be done for this fellow. While I feel sorry for what's happened in the middle east over the years, this sort of thing is becoming ridiculous. These guys know that we're not going to release any prisoners to save one to three people; I think they just enjoy the killing (perhaps revenge).

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/20/iraq.main/index.html

Edit: It's interesting how they still refused to release the prisoners after the United States made a release telling them they had no female prisoners, except two women that were apart of Saddam's regime.

[JohnDubYa]

Sadism and stupidity are a dangerous combination.

[arildno]

Sadism and stupidity are a dangerous combination.
I can't see how (a clean, one-stroke) beheading is a particularly sadistic way of executing individuals compared to other ways.
By all probability, the sudden pressure drop in the blood vessels induced by severing the head would render the victim unconscious almost immediately.
I.e, getting beheaded is probably (or at least, hopefully) a painless experience.
Pigheadedness (stupidity&fanaticism) is dangerous enough.
EDIT:
In particular in combination with plain,old evil.

[Dagenais]

I can't see how (a clean, one-stroke) beheading is a particularly sadistic way of executing individuals compared to other ways.

Getting beheaded is extremely dishonorable and simply, a sick way of dying.

As for the cowards that do the kidnapping and killing - it's quite clear that they want revenge. Not much of anything else.

I don't get why any European/Asian/American would go into the Middle East without a gun or another sort of weapon. Chances are that these people are targets.

[Wasper]

I can't see how (a clean, one-stroke) beheading is a particularly sadistic way of executing individuals compared to other ways.
By all probability, the sudden pressure drop in the blood vessels induced by severing the head would render the victim unconscious almost immediately.
I.e, getting beheaded is probably (or at least, hopefully) a painless experience.
Pigheadedness (stupidity&fanaticism) is dangerous enough.
EDIT:
In particular in combination with plain,old evil.


There's is a misconception that you have here. Yes , beheadings are painless.. if only the beheaders uses sharp weapons that slices through the neck quickly. However , the terrorists who are kidnapping these individuals aren't that humane. If you have watched the Nick Burg video , his captors did not use a sharp sword or knife , rather a dull and small one which took awhile to cut through.. obviously causing great pain. Using a supposedly merciful and humane method of execution doesn't mean that these terrorists are merciful.

[arildno]

Yeah whatever.
It is however a silly (and dangerous!) misconception of regarding these individuals as being filled with sadistic glee, like fiends in human shapes.
They are not.
Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system, who in all probability are devoted to their families.
Evil men are rarely demons; most evil is wrought by ordinary people believing it's their right&duty to inflict pain on others (sanctioned/commanded by some value system).

[Mercator]

Yeah whatever.
It is however a silly (and dangerous!) misconception of regarding these individuals as being filled with sadistic glee, like fiends in human shapes.
They are not.
Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system, who in all probability are devoted to their families.
Evil men are rarely demons; most evil is wrought by ordinary people believing it's their right&duty to inflict pain on others (sanctioned/commanded by some value system).

Good thinking! I am sure these guys would appreciate your reasoning. Perhaps you should go and visit them and give them some phsychological counseling. I am sure they will send us the video.

A desparate man may kill. Killing alone would make their point. But these guys are not merely killing, they use a human being in a most atrocious way to send a message. The only way I can interpret this message is that they don't regard their victim as a human like them. Their motivation may ultimately be religious, but I don't care if it's religion or a mental disease that causes a person to commit such an act. Serial killers, sadists, or these guys: all the same bunch of creatures we don't need in our world.

[arildno]

Since you're brainwashed into believing that ordinary individuals do not have the potential to do evil (and very often do, IMO), your thinking is worthless.

[JohnDubYa]

Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system...

:bugeye:

The same could be said for Heinrich Himmler, who had a very sophisticated morality system. Are you going to defend Heinrich too?

[Mercator]

Since you're brainwashed into believing that ordinary individuals do not have the potential to do evil (and very often do, IMO), your thinking is worthless.

I do not believe that. I would have to explain you a bit about evolutionary strategies, but that would take us too far here. Let's just say that people without the proper control mechanisms to function in a society, almost by definition place themselves outside that society. If you deny the existence of such a mechanism, then you deny civilization. Of course you can, but then we will discuss a different topic. Since my thinking is worthless for you however, there is nothing to discuss between us and I will leave you in your great wisdom.

[arildno]

:bugeye:

The same could be said for Heinrich Himmler, who had a very sophisticated morality system. Are you going to defend Heinrich too?
Since you conveniently chose to ignore the fact that I called these actions evil and never once have "defended" these actions (this type of ignoring is a typical facet of brainwashing), I really don't see the point of debating this further (clearly, you're unable to)

And, as it happens, both H.Himmler and J.Goebbels (and thousands other Nazis) were upright citizens and good family fathers

[JohnDubYa]

Since you conveniently chose to ignore the fact that I called these actions evil...

Are the perpetrators of these actions evil? If not, your argument falls into "The Devil made me do it"?

[arildno]

Sure, lots of ordinary persons are IMO evil; most of them prefer to exercise their evil in less gross, and personally more profitable ways than terrorists do.

[JohnDubYa]

If you are trying to say that Bush is evil but men who saw off the heads of their live victims are not, then come out and say it and quit dancing around the subject.

Frankly, you sound like a terrorist sympathizer. Will you deny it?

Did you see the videotape of what they did to that poor man? DID YOU? If you can watch that and not understand how evil these men are, then you're as bad as they are.

[arildno]

Eeh, as I've said you're completely brainwashed.
Yes, the terrorists are evil men.
That banal fact doesn't make you any less brainwashed and incompetent in reading actual words I've written

[JohnDubYa]

First, you defend their manner of killing. (Oh, it isn't soooo cruel.)

Then you say that they are not sadistic, but ordinary Joes. (These are family guys, like Ralph and Alice.)

Do you have anything else to add?

[arildno]

A) Defend?
An act of killing like this is morally reprehensible and indefensible.
I've never implied anything else.

B)
Why are you so frightened at the thought that "ordinary Joes" can do evil, and be evil?
This is a simple fact in the case of the great majority of fervent Nazis; there's no indication that these terrorists are any different from the Franz's and Hilda's in Nazi Germany.
C) Read some history

[studentx]

Why are you so frightened at the thought that "ordinary Joes" can do evil, and be evil?
This is a simple fact in the case of the great majority of fervent Nazis; there's no indication that these terrorists are any different from the Franz's and Hilda's in Nazi Germany.

I dont think you understand what an "ordinary Joe" is. If someone starts to do evil, hes just not called an ordinary Joe anymore. Just like you call whipped cream butter if you whip it too much. Thats just how the world works... you can change the meaning of words for yourself, just dont expect others to follow. If you have ever seen documentarys about serial killers or nazis, they "seem" like ordinary joes, but are exposed for what they truly are, sick evil barbarians.

Arildno i seriously suggest you watch this video, its available on a few sites (ogrish). THEN come back and talk about it. Its an extremely shocking video and i hope you can tell from the man's screaming and kicking while they saw thru all his nerves, that hes in great pain. I dont feel like going into details about whats its like to be killed that way cause its really not healthy to keep thinking about it, but they dont use a "big sword", rather something similar to an ordinary kitchenknife. I watched it because i wanted to know what i was talking about and im forever sorry for seeing it so im kinda in a dilemma if i really should advise you to watch it.

[Artman]

First off, arildno, I don't believe that terrorists are good fathers and mothers. I can only believe that they teach the same kind of hatred they harbour. You speak of brainwashing, apply that to those people you are defending. They aren't ordinary Joes, they are severely disfunctional people who cannot relate to society in an acceptable manner. Are you implying that this singleminded hatred of Westerners does not permeate their entire lives, including how they raise their family? You are the one who is fooling yourself.

[arildno]

Wherever have you gotten your strange ideas that persons fully capable of empathic relations with some people cannot behave as beasts against others they regard as inferior?
And secondly, wherever have I stated that such a person should be treated leniently by law for his/her criminal behaviour?
(This seems to be your own opinion)
Don't put words in my mouth.

[studentx]

Wherever have you gotten your strange ideas that persons fully capable of empathic relations with some people cannot behave as beasts against others they regard as inferior?

They can, DOH. Theyre just not called ordinary Joes and Jills by the rest of the world. Theyre called killers. Some are sadistic, some are sick, some are brainwashed and ofcourse most of them were ordinary Joe and Jill up to the point where they kill or begin thinking about killing. If you miss that something which stops you from killing others, the world calls you evil or sick.
An "upright citizen" that occasionally behaves like a beast is called a beast by the rest of the world. A man who beheads westerners because he thinks its right, is brainwashed. He will most likely raise his family to hate westerners, and even if there is a chance he wouldnt, society shouldnt take that risk. If you could use a 2 words to describe such a man, what would you use?

And secondly, wherever have I stated that such a person should be treated leniently by law for his/her criminal behaviour?
(This seems to be your own opinion)
Don't put words in my mouth.

Nobody said you stated this.

[Artman]

Yeah whatever.
It is however a silly (and dangerous!) misconception of regarding these individuals as being filled with sadistic glee, like fiends in human shapes.
They are not.
Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system, who in all probability are devoted to their families.
Evil men are rarely demons; most evil is wrought by ordinary people believing it's their right&duty to inflict pain on others (sanctioned/commanded by some value system).You have no concept of who these people truely are. If you are saying that they look like anyone else, sure they do. But, any resemblence to a natural person's behavior is an act.

Have you ever read a description of their training, their patience and resolve? I can't find the reference now, but I read a description of one of their tests. They are placed in a room with one window and told not to look out the window. Then they are left alone for days, no matter what sounds they hear, no matter how hungry they get, they do not look out the window until told to do so or they are scrapped from the group.

This is not a question of whether or not they have a sense of morality, it is more a question of blind obedience and resolve. Don't try and make them, into being reasonable people that just do unreasonable things. They are fiends in human form, but not because they view the killing with glee, but because they do it without remorse, they do it without a normal sense of morality.

They could have been told years ago that they were to wait for a signal to kill that man.

[JohnDubYa]

If you could use a 2 words to describe such a man, what would you use?

One word would probably be: "misunderstood."

[Greg Bernhardt]

another one:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/21/iraq.beheading/index.html

[graphic7]

I just saw it on CNN. While I was getting ready for class this morning, they had the wife of this latest victim on Good Morning America (might've been another show) pleading for her husband's life - very sad.

What irritates me about these latest beheadings is the victims aren't in the military. In fact all of the victims were over there to help - not to find oil, or to fight.

[physicsuser]

Yeah whatever.
It is however a silly (and dangerous!) misconception of regarding these individuals as being filled with sadistic glee, like fiends in human shapes.
They are not.
Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system, who in all probability are devoted to their families.
Evil men are rarely demons; most evil is wrought by ordinary people believing it's their right&duty to inflict pain on others (sanctioned/commanded by some value system).

1) I don't think they behead them with an axe but rather with a knife....
2)Their demands are stupid... such as allowing muslims to wear scarfs in french schools or release of muslim prisoners...

Why is it that they don't want any westerners in their country and yet they demand that muslims be treated differently in other countries? These terrorist should be hanged by their balls and and publicly stoned (as they do in muslims countries for commiting crimes).

[Dagenais]

Perhaps you are unable to stomach the chilling truth that these individuals are persons with a fully developed morality system

Have you ever heard of Kohlberg's theory of moral development?


What irritates me about these latest beheadings is the victims aren't in the military. In fact all of the victims were over there to help - not to find oil, or to fight.

If other countries would have never pulled out after their citizens got captured, maybe the terrorists would have stopped.

[kat]

I think if I were to go to Iraq I would make sure I had a tracking chip inserted under my skin...somewhere...

[studentx]

Id rather have some cyanide in my teeth. Beheadings dont just happen after days of being hold captive, theyre also done on the spot.

[Artman]

Have you ever heard of Kohlberg's theory of moral development?Good method to place their development. It seems to me that the behavior of terrorists places their development at (technically below) the 2nd stage of the 1st level. Pretty much on a twisted par with a elementary school level.

Kohlberg's theory of moral development (http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/kohlberg.html)
The first level of moral thinking is that generally found at the elementary school level. In the first stage of this level, people behave according to socially acceptable norms because they are told to do so by some authority figure (e.g., parent or teacher). This obedience is compelled by the threat or application of punishment. The second stage of this level is characterized by a view that right behavior means acting in one's own best interests. Substitute "extremist dogma" for "socially acceptable norms" above and you have terrorist morality. Then move on to "The second stage of this level is characterized by a view that right behavior means acting in one's own best interests." and you pretty much have the whole picture. They never even reach that level if you use the correct wording and the theory is that you cannot move up to the next level until you achieve your current level.

[arildno]

What does it mean to say that an ordinary person sharing the values of millions of people starts acting like a terrorist?

1. That particular person is to be regarded as a criminal on basis of his action
2. Those values shared by millions of people (i.e, current Islamic culture) should themselves be put under scrutiny, in particular on the following points:
a) To which extent is other individuals regarded as inferior?
b) To which extent is violence glorified and permitted in this cultural setting?
If you do this with current Islamic culture, you'll end up with a grim and chilling picture
3. Given the existence of terrorists as possibly a natural (but not necessary!) outgrowth of current Islamic culture (MY VIEW), to which extent are YOU willing to leave this culture unchallenged and flourishing?
In my view, not to couple the war on terrorism with a severe ideological attack on Islam itself, is simply irresponsible.

[JohnDubYa]

I think someone needs to examine the way Islam is taught to see how such extremism can flourish. There are simply too many cases of Islamic fundamentalism causing human misery. And this extends far beyond terrorism. We could also discuss bride-burning, honor killing, genital mutilation, and so on. (No, I am not saying Islam is the only religion whose followers engage in such activity.)

[GENIERE]

President Bush is subject only to the constitutional restrictions of that office, not to any international law purported to supercede our constitution by our enemies including the UN. The US constitution requires he use all means to secure the safety of the US citizen. It is time for the military to exterminate the individual terrorists, the terrorist organizations, and if need be the governments that harbor them. The US must also support Russia’s battle with terrorism in total, not hinder them via diplomatic statements.

- -

[arildno]

I think someone needs to examine the way Islam is taught to see how such extremism can flourish. There are simply too many cases of Islamic fundamentalism causing human misery. And this extends far beyond terrorism. We could also discuss bride-burning, honor killing, genital mutilation, and so on. (No, I am not saying Islam is the only religion whose followers engage in such activity.)
FINALLY WE'RE TALKING!
Too many people are deluded into the soft thinking that the terrorists are merely dysfunctional abnormals of Jeffrey Dahmer's type(and hence, that the Islamic culture as such should not be criticized for these men's behaviour. (It is, for example, completely unwarranted (and disgusting!) to lay the blame of J.D's atrocities on "American culture"). I cannot see that current Islamic culture should be allowed to wiggle itself of this hook.))

This soft thinking is an extremely dangerous form of brainwash under the name of "tolerance"; the dominant Islamic culture today is exceedingly dangerous culture precisely because: it regards several people as inferior, glorifies violence, and is extremely suspicious of individuality as such.
Dominant Islamic culture today is not inferior because their believers are of lower human worth, but it is inferior because itself regards other groups of humans as of lower human worth than its own believers.

I apologize for regarding you as subject to this particular form of brainwash.

[JohnDubYa]

You ain't such a bad guy after all.

[jimmy p]

They can, DOH. Theyre just not called ordinary Joes and Jills by the rest of the world. Theyre called killers. Some are sadistic, some are sick, some are brainwashed and of course most of them were ordinary Joe and Jill up to the point where they kill or begin thinking about killing.

The rest of the world calls them soldiers. Before someone waves their flag at me, may I just point out that I am only stating my opinion.

Americans used to believe that Native Americans were savage and incapable of reasoning. They used to put them in reservations because they couldnt be trusted around white men and women.

Americans used to believe that black men were savage and incapable of reasoning. They used to put them in plantations because they couldnt be trusted around white men and women.

The people above (mostly Americans) believe that Arabs are savage and incapable of reasoning. They want to put them in a place called Guantamino bay because they cant be trusted around white men and women.

Note the trend?

It is human nature demonise by dissociation, but this is no difference to what any person would act when attacked by a foreign power. This is no different to how the Polish reacted to the Germans in WW2. Or how the French learned to react in the same war? In the end people will do what they can to defend their nation from a percieved oppressor, it's the place of the opposite nation to classify their actions as barbaric irrespective of the blood on their own hands.

At the end of the day, these people are protecting their nation from what they see as oppressive western superpowers. They are going to what they can to preserve their way of life. Dont try and tell me that no American or Briton would go to any end to protect their nation in the same situation.

It is very well to sit back in the comfort of your homes and judge based on being on the winning side and not in the firing line. But it is a different thing when your family are being shot in the name of a regime elected by a foreign power which is now taking its personal wars onto your doorstep.

[JohnDubYa]

Americans used to believe that Native Americans were savage and incapable of reasoning.

This image was based on false or exagerrated reports of savagery. I seriously doubt anyone can say the beheadings are figments of our imagination.

In the past, news moved slow and was distorted by the time it reached its audience. Now we can see in real time exactly what is taking place. The "savage" label of those who kill civilians in Iraq is well-deserved.

At the end of the day, these people are protecting their nation from what they see as oppressive western superpowers.

You don't protect your own nation by blowing up its infrastructure and killing its policemen. This isn't about national defense, but rather about power and religious bigotry. Peace would come to Iraq if only the nutcases would quit killing people. They're not interested in peace or defending Iraq, but only in staking out their own power base and acting out against those they perceive as different.

And try as I might, I cannot imagine Native Americans or African Americans sawing off the heads of people begging for mercy. (Some Native Americans might have. If so, those individuals probably got their just reward.)

You're trying to defend the indefensible. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the barbarity we have seen exhibited against civilians who were there to help the people of Iraq. And if you excuse it, consider yourself among their company.

[studentx]

At the end of the day, these people are protecting their nation from what they see as oppressive western superpowers. They are going to what they can to preserve their way of life. Dont try and tell me that no American or Briton would go to any end to protect their nation in the same situation.

I keep hearing ppl say that the Iraqis are fighting America and want them out. But there are 10 times as many Iraqis helping America , who probably also want America out, but realize that first they need a working policeforce to stop foreign fighters and jihadists taking over the country.
Why do you choose to voice the opinion of these violent Iraqis who are in a minority, over that of the peaceful Iraqis trying to rebuild the country?