Discovering Friction Directions: An Overview

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    Friction
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the directions of friction in various scenarios involving a yo-yo on a flat surface. Participants explore the relationship between applied forces, torque, and the resulting frictional forces, with a focus on static friction and rotational motion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the reasons behind the directions of friction in three different scenarios involving a yo-yo, seeking a simpler method to determine these directions.
  • Another participant suggests that the direction of friction can be inferred from the direction of torque about the point of contact.
  • A participant notes that while all cases show clockwise rotation, the direction of friction varies, prompting a request for clarification on the third scenario.
  • One participant proposes that friction opposes the direction of potential movement, but expresses confusion regarding the third case, where the expected movement direction is unclear.
  • A participant shares an observation from a class experiment, indicating that pulling at different angles affects the motion of the yo-yo, complicating the understanding of friction direction in the second scenario.
  • Another participant asserts that in the third case, friction must act to the right since it is the only horizontal force, while also discussing the implications of a frictionless surface on the yo-yo's motion.
  • There is a discussion about the conditions under which the linear acceleration and rotational acceleration of the yo-yo interact, with a mathematical relationship presented to describe the balance of forces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the direction of friction in the third scenario, indicating a lack of consensus. While some agree on the general principles of friction opposing motion, the specific cases remain contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific scenarios and experimental observations, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the conditions under which the friction directions are determined. The discussion includes varying interpretations of torque and force interactions.

josendk
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why are there directions of friction true? (picture below, they are all standing on a flat table and there is static friction)

[URL]http://www.upload3r.com/serve/230511/1306176168.jpg[/URL]

how can I in the future easyli see where the friction is going, so I don't have to write up these three everytime:

sum of F = m*a
sum of tau = I * alpha
a = R*alpha
 
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welcome to pf!

hi josendk! welcome to pf! :smile:

(have a tau: τ and an alpha: α :wink:)

you can find the direction of friction by first finding the direction (clockwise or anti-clockwise) of the torque of F about the point of contact :wink:
 
thank you for the welcoming and the reply :)

they all rotate clockwise but the friction does not have the same direction in all three examples, can you explain that?
 
I was going to say that the friction is in opposite direction to where they are most likely to go but the third one confuses me. The 1st and 2nd card will obviously move to the right if the force is big enough so friction is to the left. I find it hard to tell the direction in which the 3rd one witt move.

Tiny-Tim the torque looks clockwise about the point of contact in all three cases to me? Please explain why the the third case has friction in the opposite direction.

My thoughts are that yoyo will not move horizontally and will rotate so the friction opposes this rotation instead of the movement
 
to clear things up my professor did this experiment in class last semester and when you pull up, it will rotate clockwise, if you pull at a 45 degree angle it will NOT roll, but slip instead.

Actually it is number 2 I have a hard time understanding because the torques from the center of the yo-yo go the same way :s
My logic would be that they would have to oppose each other as in 1 and 3.

the picture is from my physics-book university physics solutions
 
josendk said:
they all rotate clockwise but the friction does not have the same direction in all three examples, can you explain that?

hi josendk! :smile:

yes, in all three cases, the yoyo accelerates clockwise, and so must roll and accelerate to the right

in the third case (F vertical), isn't it obvious the friction must be to the right (because the friction is the only horizontal force)?

in the other two cases, we need to do a bit of thinking to find the direction of friction :rolleyes:

assuming the yoyo is accelerating, if the ground suddenly turned to frictionless ice, what would happen? the force F would want to linearly accelerate it at F/m, but it would want to rotationally accelerate it at Fr/I …

(r is the height of F above the centre)

these match (and the yoyo will continue to roll despite the lack of friction) if F/m = RFr/I, ie I/mR2 = r/R

I/mR2 is usually about 1/2, so if F is less than about 3R/2 up from the table (r < R/2), then the LHS wins, ie the linear acceleration wins, the yoyo wants to move faster than the rolling rate for its angular speed will let it, ie the bottom of the yoyo wants to slip forward, and so the friction is backward (but gets less as r+R approaches 3R/2)
 

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