John Titor... Time travler.

[Integral]

This is some fun stuff (http://johntitor.com/)

[megashawn]

Is there anyone out there trying to debunk this stuff? Its rather spooky, but seems like it could have been forged.

It would be nice to see some of the original posts, although those could be faked as well.

I read most of the page, and it seems that some of the story has credibility, but that all mostly depends on whether or not the dates the author claims JT posted this stuff is true.

True or not, I'm glad I live in a small, rural community away from huge cities.

Is there any credibility to some of the physics claims made? I noticed the author provided some sites to half way back up some of the claims.

Mostly, I'm just responding cause seems like someone should.

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

They make all of two suggestions that he might have known something, what the heck is there to de-bunk???

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
They make all of two suggestions that he might have known something, what the heck is there to de-bunk???

Here's some more. http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/CopyrightProof.cfm

[Ivan Seeking]

http://pub66.ezboard.com/fthepeanutsgangfrm62.showMessage?topicID=2.topic

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Integral
This is some fun stuff (http://johntitor.com/)

I expected to find that this whole story was made up last July, but this guy has really gotten people worked up. [:D]

http://invisionfree.com/forums/Time_Travel_Hotel/index.php?showtopic=6

http://www.anomalies.net/time_travel/john.html

http://www.anomalies.net/time_travel/irc.html

[phoenixthoth]

recently i was banned from mkaku.org for reasons that are still unknown to me. then the site went down. just as the site was shutting down, someone going by the name of john titor was apparently conversing with me. i heard this through my friend who witnessed the activity while i was banned. but now all the conversations are gone.

cheers,
phoenix

[KillaMarcilla]

0hh0, how intriguing

At the very least, his advice about appreciating and preserving life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness warrants some merit

Stupid mad cow disease.. although I guess that I shouldn't be eating beef anyway, if I want to lose weight

It'll probably be 2005 by the time I'm down to an average weight anyway..

Maybe I oughtta go through with my plan of visiting/moving to Japan once I get out of college

It certainly would be nice to be the largest person around, although I guess that if I don't like the cost of living in Seattle, then Japan might get old pretty quickly

[phoenixthoth]

i love your signiture!

[megashawn]

I'm not really sure what to think about this. Of course my gut reaction is that its BS.

Another note that has me even more skeptical is not so much any of John's words, but some of the other claimed Time travelers. These people claim they've gone back in time in order to prove Jesus lived, Muhammed, etc. They've claimed history and science is wrong, and that humans lived with dinosaurs.

We know the last line is simply untrue, unless there is some kinda magic plateu like in "The Lost World". To me, it seems a plot to yet again convince people to get into church.

Some of the stuff John mentioned seems a bit more worth while, atleast to the point where it would be worth looking out for signs of things to come.

I just can't imagine what the US governement would do to prompt a civil war.

Like Integral said, fun stuff. I can't believe I've missed out on this for 3 years, is what gets me.

[phoenixthoth]

the john titor that was conversing with me claimed to be living in canada, not florida. he was apparently trying the writing exercises i've learned and shared with great success; he contacted my friends on mkaku.org and asked questions. he apparently asked me questions but i was banned. now all the messages are gone.

cheers,
phoenix

[selfAdjoint]

I never went to the mkaku site before it was transferred here, but I could see that it might be uptight about such things as actual time travel. This is a more forgiving site. Another one is the forum at www.superstringtheory.com, where there is a lot of nonstandard theory exposed. They're having some technical problems right now, but some boards are open.

[phoenixthoth]

cool. i'll check it out!

thanks.

[Sunfist]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
I never went to the mkaku site before it was transferred here, but I could see that it might be uptight about such things as actual time travel. This is a more forgiving site. Another one is the forum at www.superstringtheory.com, where there is a lot of nonstandard theory exposed. They're having some technical problems right now, but some boards are open.

I was a moderator at the MKaku website and I can assure you that we were not uptight there. We often discussed such ideas as time travel. We had a theoretical physics section as well as others that dealt with such things. Heck, we even had a Science Fiction section, just for fun.

MKaku is a big fan of science fiction and enjoys discussing ideas now matter how rediculous they might seem. Dr. Kaku was on "Unscreweed" for crying out loud.

No, we were not an uptight group of people.

[Sunfist]

By the way, I just went and looked at the "Copywrite Proof of Evidence" thing and all that happened is that someone copywrited some of the things that Titor supposedly said. That doesn't mean anything. Anything can by copywrited. It doesn't mean it's real. By that, I mean, it doesn't even mean some guy named John Titor said any of it.

The American Civil War II thing is odd, though. Whoever is perpetrating this hoax will have it blown out of the water in two years. Unless they use the parallel worlds excuse.

[Zantra]

I just finished reading the whole thing- I haven't read the debunking websites yet, but I'm assuming he hasn't been debunked yet as this is still a topic of discussion.

If it is bunk, a lot of time and effort went into this, and this guy is no dummy- he would have had to do quite a bit of physics research to pull this off.

One thing that stuck out to me, was that he mentioned the civil war resulting from loss of civil rights- people were being invaded and having thier houses searched by the government. This correlates with the increased security resulting from 9/11. It is being scaled back, however it would be very easy to imagine it cascading out of control, were the US to suffer another terrorist attack. Sacrifice of personal liberties to ensure public security- he made reference to this belief in regards to the civil war. However I find it incredulous that he didn't even make a faint reference to the 9/11 incident. He seemed to favor March 21st as a significant date- but no year, so that could be 2004, 2008, or even 2015. Could he pull it off if he had sufficient time, means, and motivation? No doubt he could do the phyics reseach- the pictures would have required him to actually build a replica. I remain a skeptic as always, but here's my proposition.

If he's wrong-*shrug* another wacko hits the dust. But if he's actually a time traveller-god help us all. And he was right- no one will take him seriously- at least not until 2004 if events escalate. With a bleak future like that, I'm sure we'd all rather think he's a babbling idiot.

EDIT: There's a very quick current way to verfiy everything he's saying. Because according to him, in 2001 or 2002 CERN accidently created a microsingularity. His explanation is that by bombarding a microsingularity smaller than the size of an electron, WITH electrons you broaden the event horizon, and thus the gravitational field. He forthermore says that by overlapping the fields from 2 microsingularities you can travel through time. I believe his says this is discovered through a super-collider at CERN, but that the supercollider isn't completed until 2007-conflicting story, but I may have the details mixed up.

Anyone familiar with a discovery of a microsingularity at CERN?

As an aside, I emailed this pamela girl inviting her to comment in this post about the validity(or her view of) his authenticity. We'll see if she stops in[;)]

[Zantra]

Could THIS be the discovery John Titon spoke of? it's still too early to tell...

August 13, 2003
High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK)



The High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK) announced that the Belle collaboration, an international research team working at the KEKB accelerator, found evidence for a new phenomenon that cannot be explained by the Standard Model of elementary particles.

The KEKB accelerator is a device for generating a large number of very shortlived subatomic particles called B mesons as well as their anti-matter counterparts. These particles, each with a mass somewhat greater than that of the helium atom, disintegrate after about a few trillionths of a second into lighter and more long-lived daughters, and these decay products are detected by the Belle detector

http://www.kek.jp/press/2003/belle3e.html

Also here's a post by jon titor on 3/14/01

The faulty part of your description for your device involves Hawking Radiation. Its not the size of the singularity that matters, its the mass involved that determines the temperature of the radiation.


You seem to be quite upset and I understand your argument. I do however think it is important to gather the facts and probabilities before expelling emotional energy on them. Please keep in mind that I have not shared all the technical details of the machine with you. So an easy out would be for me to just make something up.


However, and as I'm sure you are aware, Stephen Hawking admits that his own equations support the "possibility" that microsingularities may not totally disappear as they evaporate in a sea of virtual particles and in fact may leave behind a very stable naked singularity. I'm sure you can look that up. I suppose the difficult part is believing that we've taken advantage of it, not that it's impossible.


So it is possible that the naked singularity he's referring to COULD(and I stress could) be the same thing that was recently discovered in my above CERN link. Something to consider....

[Zantra]

Well it appears this thing picked up quite a following, but Now for the final word from Dr Robert G Brown, Physicist

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000482

[phoenixthoth]

i tried registering on that site but my email has already been banned so that i cannot. interesting.

i can't even begin to speculate on why that is; i feel it must be an error.

i'm trying to contact john for myself for i have my own questions. one of them is this: why would someone pretend to be a time traveler from the future, theoretically speaking; what would they have to gain?

on the site, the physicist (if i'm not mistaken) reported that john wishes as few contacts as possible (for his own reasons). but he apparenly will spend time with a physicist. why, i ask? why the need for validation from relatively primative scientists? how on earth could sufficiently advanced science be explained to those of a limited viewpoint? how would we explain superstring theory to the anceint egyptians? they wouldn't believe us and call us frauds. it sounds to me as if this john character is in his own self-reinforcing delusional world if he isn't a bona fide time traveler. he can always excuse himself by suggesting that current science just can't understand his advanced science. in fact, anyone with sufficient background in science fiction knows that if you just go through a portal created by chronaton particles, you can travel to any point in time instantaneously and always argue that it's just that the chronoton hasn't been discovered yet because it isn't sought for. what a problem...

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

[Eh]

Just when I think people in this part of the world can't get any dumber, something like this comes up. I mean, how gullible does one have to be in order to buy into this nonsense? Making educated guesses about the future is easy.

[Zantra]

phoenix-

I tried registering too and had trouble. It wouldn't take any of my generic(hotmail, yahoo, etc) email accounts. I think they banned them or something, and in fact had to register a personal account to get it to work. It said the other ones were banned, and I'd never been to that site before. Just a heads up.

[phoenixthoth]

let me reply to both recent posts.

zantra, thanks for the heads up. for a second there, i felt like i had become a specific target for some reason; it is enlightening to know that others with generic emails are blocked as well. thanks for the heads up. i will try registering under a different email address. luckily i have one up my sleeve.

as for the gullibility comment, i'd like to point out that no one here has expressed the opinion that they believe this john titor guy, only that we find him an interesting topic for discussion. it is our time to waste on the subject, though it raises geeneric questions such as where are time travelling tourists and historians? are they here but keeping a low profile because they're following rules about not influencing the timeline? why go back in time to witness it when you can just read about it in a book? maybe there is seen to be no need to go back in time. perhaps the interesting direction is FORWARDS and therefore we would never encounter a time traveler. perhaps that's why there are no time travelers: they can easily access history from their own sources without the need to actually go back and witness it. or maybe they also have invented an invisibility potion by then and they're all around us but invisible to current technology. but, at that point, who really cares if there are time travelers here if they're not going to influece the timeline and not going to interact with us historical figures?

(btw, zantra, i love the highlander series! do you think duncan will be the last immortal standing when the dust settles? wouldn't it be a tragedy if he was the last one standing and got killed in some stupid accident?)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
let me reply to both recent posts.

zantra, thanks for the heads up. for a second there, i felt like i had become a specific target for some reason; it is enlightening to know that others with generic emails are blocked as well. thanks for the heads up. i will try registering under a different email address. luckily i have one up my sleeve.

as for the gullibility comment, i'd like to point out that no one here has expressed the opinion that they believe this john titor guy, only that we find him an interesting topic for discussion. it is our time to waste on the subject, though it raises geeneric questions such as where are time travelling tourists and historians? are they here but keeping a low profile because they're following rules about not influencing the timeline? why go back in time to witness it when you can just read about it in a book? maybe there is seen to be no need to go back in time. perhaps the interesting direction is FORWARDS and therefore we would never encounter a time traveler. perhaps that's why there are no time travelers: they can easily access history from their own sources without the need to actually go back and witness it. or maybe they also have invented an invisibility potion by then and they're all around us but invisible to current technology. but, at that point, who really cares if there are time travelers here if they're not going to influece the timeline and not going to interact with us historical figures?

(btw, zantra, i love the highlander series! do you think duncan will be the last immortal standing when the dust settles? wouldn't it be a tragedy if he was the last one standing and got killed in some stupid accident?)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

Yes that truly would be a tragedy, but who says those writers don't have a sick sense of humor?[;)].

As far as why they would go back. Well don't you think if you had a chance to go back to the time of christ and witness it firsthand, it's a lot more interesting than just reading the bible? If indeed time travel does exist, they are no doubt keeping a low profile. One thing we can learn from John Titor was his exploitation of the common perception. Even if you DID claim to be a time traveller, and were genuine. And short of taking people for a ride, who's going to believe you? No without making some accurate near-future predictions that come true. Now if he'd even HINTED at 9-11, he'd have made a believer out of me. But he didn't drop so much as a hint before he left- Stating all these rules of non-intervention etc, etc. In psychological circles this is known as a self-reinforcing delusion. Indeed he made absolutely no predictions prior to leaving, except those far enough in the future that he wouldn't be held accountable when they didn't come true. John titor isn't a real name- as he himself pointed out- TIme Travel OR. if he was truly a historic observer, he could have interacted without even revealing himself and accomplished the same goal. If he were adhering to those self imposed "TT rules" he supposedly followed, he wouldn't have mentioned it. It's simply narcissism. He needed to feed his ego, and he suceeeded. This is some wacko. I'm pretty well satisfied of it.

[phoenixthoth]

so i take it that the physicist on anomalies.net, in your opinion, successfully debunked john?

isn't it possible that current science just can't understand advanced science?

but, then again, this leads us back to the position that he's in a self-reinforcing delusion. how do you, really, convince someone that their reality, the reality they see, is WRONG? especially someone who believes it so strongly based on skant evidence, evidence that is circumstantial and sounding like science fiction?

cheers,
phoenix

[Sunfist]

In my opinion, Titor is one of two things. One, a fraud. Two, like the man in the novel KPAX. In other words, his delusion is so complete, that his mind is capable of coming up with pseudoscience that actually makes sense in some situations. (And repeats, ie, if you ask him a question twice, you get the same answer.)

[phoenixthoth]

"It is only the inferior thinker who hastens to explain the singular and the complex by the primitive shortcut of supernaturalism."

i agree that those seem to be the two possible opinions on john. i agree that his position is respetable from a certain point of view, if i were to muddle your words a little...

now that you've stated that these are the two possible opinions one can have on mr. titor, what is YOUR position?

my position is to remain undecided for now and to continue finding the idea interesting enough to investigate further and NOT a waste of time.

i would only be convinced that he is a time traveler if i were to go for a ride with him in his machine. i have predecided that that is what will constitute proof that he is a time traveler. until then, i will remain interested but undecided.

cheers,
phoenix

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
so i take it that the physicist on anomalies.net, in your opinion, successfully debunked john?

isn't it possible that current science just can't understand advanced science?

but, then again, this leads us back to the position that he's in a self-reinforcing delusion. how do you, really, convince someone that their reality, the reality they see, is WRONG? especially someone who believes it so strongly based on skant evidence, evidence that is circumstantial and sounding like science fiction?

cheers,
phoenix

I never peg anything at 100 percent unless I'm sure of it. Do I know without a shred of doubt that 1+1=2? Yes. I'm I 100 percent convinced he's a wacko?No. There's a small percentage of me that holds out the possibility that there may be some truth to this. If events were to begin escalating in 2004 towards a civil war, no doubt I'd pay attention, and perhaps even take action. But as he said, the signs will be obvious, so I have plenty of time to plan[;)]

[phoenixthoth]

i think higher truth can be learned from the equation 1 + 1 = 2.

here's why.

that's not something you can prove. not even close. i can explain to you why this can't be proved if you permit me and ask me to. this is what my master's background in mathematics leads me to believe; this is what the evidence indicates. so, for the moment, i'm making an appeal to myself as an authority but i would remain skeptical if i were you that it is impossible to prove that 1+1=2.

here's the higher truth.

you can believe that 1+1=2 without proof. to generalize, you can believe something, in fact know something to be true, without having proof.

therefore, it is conceivable (at best) that one could believe in God without proof.

the question is this: what constitutes ample evidence? there is all kinds of evidence: legal evidence, mathematical evidence, scientific evidence, philosophical evidence, just to name a few.

what argument and/or evidence would be pursuasive enough to convince someone that God exists? for me, direct first-hand experience cuts it. for me, that is ample evidence. elsewhere, i've posted suggestions on how to see God for yourself and i only wonder why wouldn't you be willing to put in the time and effort on the matter. it took me about two months (not to mention the rest of my life) of concentrated (though non-directed) effort to obtain any results, positive or negative on the God issue.

knowledge is power; ignorance is bliss: you decide. (secret: you can have both power and bliss).

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

[Zantra]

I agree-direct first hand physical evidence is my requirement. IMO he hasn't provided that. On the other hand it has niether been unequivicably proven that he's a fraud. Some will make an ASSUMPTION of that based on the lack of available evidence- that is thier shortcoming, not to mention a double standard. science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise.

*shrug*

[Sunfist]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
i agree that those seem to be the two possible opinions on john. i agree that his position is respetable from a certain point of view, if i were to muddle your words a little...

now that you've stated that these are the two possible opinions one can have on mr. titor, what is YOUR position?

my position is to remain undecided for now and to continue finding the idea interesting enough to investigate further and NOT a waste of time.

i would only be convinced that he is a time traveler if i were to go for a ride with him in his machine. i have predecided that that is what will constitute proof that he is a time traveler. until then, i will remain interested but undecided.

cheers,
phoenix

I haven't made up my mind. I tend to believe the second one more than the first. I don't really think he is lying as much as insane. I highly doubt that he is a time traveller.

I am also not going to discuss him any more because if he is lying, then this is his motivation. To see how many people he can get talking about him. I'm not going to join in. I'm just goin to think about it to myself.

I agree. The only way I would believe him is to be taken inside a time machine with him. Of course, even though his discussions have survived 3 years and are still talked about, I imagine he will be discussed a lot less in another 3 years. (That is, unless the US really does enter a civil war. Then, he might be talked about a great deal more.)

[phoenixthoth]

"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

i agree with that fully. furthermore, i find it dissapointing, though understandable, that respectable physicists will not "waste time" investigating "alternate" theories and try to disprove them. i think it would be really educational to find the flaw in the argument and line of inquiry. i think it would help the discovery process along a little. but, then again, debunking theories is kinda a waste of time when you could spend time developing what you think is the right theory. on that note, i find it interesting that string theorists have NO experimental evidence that they're not ALL INSANE. depends on what you mean by "insane." i have a love/hate relationship with the word insane. i believe insanity is seeing a reality no one else sees, or that only few others see. in that sense, columbus and his collective that thought the earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones. why bother talking to insane people, then? well, IMO, they are right about 1% of the time. if you talk to 100 insane people, you'll get a revolutionary idea once. the rest of them are spinning their collective wheels. i admire their inspiration either way. (i distance myself from the group of insane people when all the evidence indicates that i'm insane as well... *shrug*)

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix

[Zantra]

I'd read those posts of his about the future. I prefer choice A. he's a wacked out nutjob otherwise I'm making my preperations to go to south america [;)]

[phoenixthoth]

the way i see things, though perhaps i watch the news too much, the world is heading towards a major global conflict within the next 50 years almost certainly. and i find this thought very disturbing and troubling. i'm not so sure there will be a civil war II or WWIII but that war will be raging in all corners of the globe by dozens of sides by 2050 if we (or THEY) can't figure out what to do.

someone here once said that it's not hard to predict the immediate future and this is the future i predict; it's not based on magic, it seems to be a logical consequence of the way things are going.

so what can i possibly do about it? should i, like you, consider moving to south america? should i learn survival skills? should i stock up in food and figure out alernate sources of food?

how distressing!

--phoenix

[Zantra]

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

And the story unravels itsself. Check out the pamela post towards the end of this post

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000454;p=5

Phoenix

For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's very possible that we are headed towards another major world conflict. That's what made us actually consider this JT guy as a possibility- he was playing on the fears that I'm sure many of us have, myself included- that nuclear war is eminent, and a seemingly unescapable reality that we must face. In the 1960's there was a similar paranoia during the the cold war and the cuban missle crisis. People were building bomb shelters and holding war drills in schools. though I wouldn't like to see this type of paranoia grip our society, it is a nagging reality in the backs of our minds. Should we all give up our homes and lifesyles to relocated to remote locations of the US and the rest of the globe in hopes of surviving a nuclear holocaust that may come in months, years, decades, or perhaps not even in our lifetimes? I guess that depends on on how strong your survival instinct is. Some would not want to, and even more COULD not survive the aftermath of a fullout nuclear war. As for me, if I were given sufficient warnings and time, I would make every effort to survive, but the reality of it is that unless you're given at least a day's warning to get away from any major city, you either wouldn't survive, or would die a slow, horrible, and painful death from nuclear radiation poisoning. Personally, I would hope to go in the initial blast, rather than the 2nd alternative.

Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last.

[phoenixthoth]

"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

[radagast]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."


I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

[merak]

hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!!!

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by radagast
I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

Really we agree but with one qualifier: Occam's razor is just a guideline. This is not a test for reality. Sometimes the more complicated explanation is required.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by merak
hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!!!

maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us[;)] Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

I agree we do have to solve our domestic problems too. Also think Bush's foreign policy sucks, and he used the 9/11 attacks to justify his Saddam agenda and to finish what his father didn't. Hopefully the next president will able to the mend the fences that Bush is tearing down.

I'm sorry to hear that you were homeless. Though I did come from a modest upbringing, I've always been blessed with a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The US is too self-absorbed in it's own problems to look up and see just how good we have it. Haven't been to other countries, I can tell you that even the poor here live in the lap of luxury compared to most countries.

[phoenixthoth]

no, zantra, you are quite wrong about the poor here living in the lap of luxury compared to what is going on in other countries. the poor here are in the same boat as the poor in other countries. i'm particularly speaking of the "mentally ill" homeless.

i must admit that you are partially right. for example, in ione where i live, there is a homeless shelter (with limited beds) and YOU CAN STAY FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. if you haven't got a job and saved enough for housing all in only a month, where are you supposed to go from there? homeless shelter to homeless shelter? what a messed up life that is. the unemployment problem, the way i see it, is near a depression stage right now and it has the potential to lead to a chain reaction of unemployment and people stuck in welfare with nowhere to go. many people right here in "enlightened," "free," "democratic," america have NO WHERE TO GO. i think these issues need to be addressed before we go about nation building without a clue how to do it. it seems like we learned something about nation building with germany and japan but we may not be using those lessons in iraq simply because we are unwelcome in iraq. why stick our collective noses in others' business? and why choose only iraq and afganistan? what about all the other "evil" empires out there?

cheers,
phoenix

[Zantra]

I should rephrase that to I HAVE been to other countries and seen the conditions there. I'm not saying the homeless have it good compared to the rest of us, but compared to the rest of the 3rd world countries, even the homeless have more advantages. They also have job opportunities that aren't available even to the people WITH a home. Mentally ill homeless is another story.

[phoenixthoth]

zantra,

i've been to other countries too through the eyes of cameras on tv. i must change my statement and agree with you that homeless here have a few more opportunities than elsewhere. in native american culture, the homeless can approach ANYONE's home and assume he will be welcome as long as he does his or her share of chores and farmwork. i view that as the way it should go, but people are so corrupted by their urges to steal that no one can logically trust a stranger in their home. in native america, people were more trusting. it's almost like a wanderer becomes a part of the family. the family asks HIM what he has learned in his travels.

the mentally ill homeless is quite another story. society, it seems, is quite unsympathetic and dispassionate towards the mentally ill. in reality, there is no working solution for the severely disturbed. i've known people maxed out (dose wise) on medication and therapy but they just don't respond to treatment. why not consider the possibility that what they need is SPIRITUAL healing? no one has the tools, it seems, for spiritual healing either. certainly, doctors don't. the twelve step programs probably do but then you have to buy into the existence of a higher power. we're taught by a religionless education system to be highly skeptical of any higher power, so we are cut off from that resource and have to teach ourselves the hard way.

doubt of a higher power is quite a powerful tool, almost a weapon; a weapon indirectly cutting at the very core of the spiritual self. there are many who don't even believe they have a soul to sell.


phoenix

[merak]

Originally posted by Zantra
maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us[;)] Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

zantra..I was laughing at the time traveler.there is nothing funny about war.
I can not see a time machine being built by 2036.
IF some said he was from the year 9036 maybe,but only if he could offer proof...

[Zantra]

ok just wanted to clear that up[;)]

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

columbus and his collective that thought the earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones.

The belief that the earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know. However, this is not why Columbus sailed. It is a common misconception that he daringly sailed (romantically enough)to find out if the Earth was round or not but he really did it to find out how big it was. I mean, we know of the political and economic reasons (hopefully) but I'm referring to the scientific ones. Besides, I was reading a book about ancient science and it mentioned something about Columbus knowing the Earth was round simply by observing the water and islands.

Have you ever thought that it was about determining just how big the Earth was rather than how round it was? Because, centuries before now a Greek mathematician determined the earth was round and later a Muslim mathematician would determine the same thing. Amazingly, they even were able to get an idea of just how big around it is. At that time it was thought circa 24,000 miles. Of course, this isn't accurate but these folks were doing this stuff without Satellites :) Um, colonial surveying technology (acting in lieu of GPS), impressive as it still is, is another topic altogether.

Oh yeah, and Amerigo Vespucci (I'm not Titoring you) was not the one America was named after. Since, the maps he procured were from a European investor named a certain Mr. Ameryke who had them charted in search of fishing areas on the Atlantic. Anyways, the maps already had the name 'America' on them :)

On another foot, the people here need to get some perspective.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

At least it seems they are so caught up in this 'John Titor' moniker. I think its fun and when 04-05 rolls around and a nuclear holocaust starts, well it won't be fun. However, I doubt that will happen. I think 'John' as we call him is just an intelligent, knowledgable, creative person.

People are so awed by his ability to make general predictions about the future, some of which seem to have come true. However, I can throw out some vague predictions of what will happen tomorrow (metaphorically speaking) and some of them will probably come true. 'John' is just an insightful type with a knack for creative writing.

I enjoyed reading his stuff and for a while (all of a few minutes) he really had me taken in. However, I'll remain with an open mind but I'd like to think his reality does not come to be. At least the part with nuclear war, I mean come on that's kind of bleak.

Obviously this 'farmer soldier' type he is referring to is Cincinnatus (fyi, a Roman General who saved Rome and went right back to farming like he did before). He sounds like he knows the constitution and the history behind the founding father's. So do a lot of people, including myself. It seems as if he follows a more Jeffersonian view of how the U.S. should be.

Anyways, his message about not being lazy, taking responsibility and understanding that 'bigger' isn't always 'better' was well received here. As well, studying the U.S. constitution, I think thats important to. And, his thoughts on less centralized education, I agree with.

But, I always ask myself when confronted with a dilemma, which seems more likely? Then I tell myself to keep an open mind with an absence of data but go with the more likely possiblity in the mean time. With this John Titor fellow, lets just hope he's a rational prankster who's just having fun. If he's a delusional, well I feel sorry for him, I really do. And if he's for real, wow what a barbecue we might be heading for at this moment!

I enjoyed reading his thing and if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Let's not speculate as fact everyone! I know people on this board would likely agree but, some people searching on Google (like myself) would not understand that concept. That's one area where people piss me off, unless of course, if they aren't playing.

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
...if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

I think the FiSh speaks the truth.

Now there's a sentence I never expected to write! [:D]

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

Its all about looking for purpose. Sometimes I do find some and other times I don't. This instance it was obvious because he was interspersing it throughout his comments.

Um, I hate to ruin the fun of a practical joke by looking for purpose though. Initially, I just got a kick out of it. I mean, its so funny yet so entertaining in an entirely other way.

I hope dear John 'Time Travel oR' isn't a psychotic or delusional. I wish he's just some educated fellow getting a laugh out of us.

I think he was telling the truth in one regard, he has been homeschooled. Its obvious in his breadth of knowledge and wide ranging interests as well as his creativity. Sorry for any of you regularly educated folks but I think homeschooling is supreme.

[phoenixthoth]

"The belief that the earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know."

that's all i was saying. i made no mention of why columbus sailed. at least, i don't remember saying it was just to prove the world was round or to prove that he wasn't insane. i doubt his primary goal was to measure the earth's circumferance, though. my good old american education system told me that he wanted to find a hopefully cheaper route to india. i guess that's the source of my doubt that he had a scientific goal; so, being the USA's history system as it apparently is, i guess the doubt may be unjustified.

how the greeks and others could present evidence leading one to conclude the earth was round, which i was aware of, and then many people still thinking it was flat is *somewhat* of a mystery to me.

interesting choice of word, "superstition." would you say it was a common "superstition" that the sound barrier couldn't be broken or that people will never be able to build flying machines? in ten thousand years, will they say that in 2003 it was a common superstition that time travel was impossible? will they say it was a common supersititon that exceeding the speed of light is impossible? i guess i should ask john titor. oh wait, he's only from 2036. it seems to me like what we think is rational now doesn't appear to be later all the time (eg, later it may be refered to as a superstition). it's not that it suddenly irrational, but that it wasn't rational ENOUGH.

you could pick this apart further and observe that the superstitions regarding the sound barrier and flying machines were inductive conclusions based on many, many experiments. i don't think there was a way to deductively prove that those beliefs were correct. they turned out to be incorrect, so i guess that rules out the possibility of deductively proving they were correct. on the other hand, people as far as i know are making deductive arguments regarding time travel and the speed of light barrier. so perhaps these shouldn't be considered superstitions. on the third hand, deductive arguments are based on premises. so one is forced to accept those before accepting the conclusions, of course. i'm not very inclined to accept einsteins axioms of special relativity at the moment, however. nor am i inclined to reject them. call me an einstien agnostic. that being the case, i can't be sure if the speed of light can be exceeded. i'm equally up in the air on the time travel issue.

cheers,
phoenix

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

rhetorical rebuttal of yours

I think believing the world is flat is a superstition don't you? There was no purpose for you to devote a whole paragraph to waxing in my terminology (even if it did sound rational, it was smacking of the juvenile). Could you possibly get your point out more succinctly? Thanks, in forward.

And I said hopefully people know the economic reasons. Obviously you do, so there was no need for you to mention that.

But if you want a source for the Greek and Muslim mathematicians try

Lost Discoveries - The Ancient Roots of Modern Science - from the Babylonians to the Maya

BY DICK TERESI

I think good old John is a fake. I also thing you are postulating to much. This thread is good for kicks but not if people are so mediocre.

One thing I noticed about everyone on this board is you are pseudoscientific babble boxes.

But here's some of 'John's' alleged stuff found on a crack pot web site:

http://www.johntitor.com/JohnsPictures.htm

Take a look at that time machine! Looks like something out of Back to the Future.

With that said, here's a website for you to peruse:

www.skeptic.com/

[Embermage]

Technically, since he says that he was born in 1998, wouldn't that mean that he is alive and living somewhere in... Florida... right about now? Now, if he did give us his real name, which I doubt is true, would he be traceable?


Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).


Actually that "therapist" was me. I was just trying to lure him out into talking so I could verbally corner him, but he wasn't biting. I'd love to have a crack at debunking him, but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

Ya back in one piece[;)] Well jumpin jimminey wilikers, I'll try and remember that for zoob's sake!!

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

Actually though appearances may decieve, I'm an avid supporter of "valid" alternative theories. It's people such John Titor with too much time on thier hands who detract from the valid claims, in much the same way fanatical abortion clinic bombers detract from the pro-life cause. With people like him around, it's no wonder the scientific community won't even contemplate subjects like UFO's due to it's attraction of fanatics.

90 percent of what's out there is bunk. It's the other 10 percent I'm interested in. There's always a little "science" in science fiction.

"when all possibilites have been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.

Oh and I did contact Pamela, and invited her here to discuss JT, but she never responded. Perhaps because I wasn't a "believer"....

[kleinma]

I have the ability to travel through time, The possibilities are completely endless... first thing on my to do list.. go to an internet forum and post to people about the ability of time travel without giving them any actual shred of proof, or describe factual events in detail... [g)] [s(]

come on guys... i mean if you could time travel... is that how you would spend your time in the past??

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I know, he never explained why he came onto the forums very well. I'm a skeptic but a entertaining story he paints. I hope he isn't some psychotic delusional but just some normal headed prankster. That would be funny then. Hopefully one day he comes out and admits it. Of course if I'm wrong, it would suck a lot because I'm happy being a fat lazy slob in a rich capitalist country. Except, I'm not fat.

PS Zantra where did ya go? And who is this pamela character?

[RickD]

Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by RickD
Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

Hi Rick,
First, thanks for posting. Have there been any serious efforts to debunk this guy? For example, I suspect that his time machine GE/C204 is a mobile receiver unit used by the military.

[phoenixthoth]

yes. on anomalies.net, what appears to be a serious physicist picked apart john's claims and concluded that the claims are not sufficiently grounded in currently understood physics. i suppose the ultimate conclusion is that john is a faker. i believe links to this counterargument have been posted by zantra earlier in this thread on PF.

i know this is illogical of me, but i reserve the right to doubt logical arguments no matter how impeccable the logic is. what would really prove it to me to be negative would be if john came to me (or i to him) with his supposed machine and it didn't work.

to give an analogy, suppose a time traveler went back to 1935 with an F-16. he writes letters to aero people saying that he is a time traveler with a machine capable of supersonic flight. they would come up with convincing arguments to prove that is impossible; the lay person would accept their impeccable logic which says breaking the sound barrier is impossible. if the time traveler isn't willing to demonstrate his machine to at least the aero people, if not the general public, then the whole thing is essentially a waste of time.

forgive me for not trusting either john or the physicist.

cheers,
phoenix

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Embermage
Technically, since he says that he was born in 1998, wouldn't that mean that he is alive and living somewhere in... Florida... right about now? Now, if he did give us his real name, which I doubt is true, would he be traceable?


Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Find the child Titor! Find the child Titor! Find the child Titor! [:D]

[phoenixthoth]

we should also kill the child to test out the grandfather paradox. ;)

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
I know, he never explained why he came onto the forums very well. I'm a skeptic but a entertaining story he paints. I hope he isn't some psychotic delusional but just some normal headed prankster. That would be funny then. Hopefully one day he comes out and admits it. Of course if I'm wrong, it would suck a lot because I'm happy being a fat lazy slob in a rich capitalist country. Except, I'm not fat.

PS Zantra where did ya go? And who is this pamela character?

I'm still around. Been on vacation for a while. Pamela was the most connected to the John Titor story. Apparently he was communicating largely through her for various things such as the pictures that were posted. She's one of the moderators on anomalies.net

[Zantra]

Yes indeed, John Titor was, at least in my mind, sufficiently debunked. By a Dr.Robert Browne from Duke university. People were going crazy contacting people about this. Even Stephen Hawking was asked about this, though I don't think he replied.

Then apparently Pamela, who was the only contact JT used, and Darby, another moderator, recieved information from a "friend of a friend" of the person who was portraying John Titor, confirming that it had been a hoax that got out of hand. I guess in theory there's still a possibility that he's real. About the same way there's a possibility the loch ness monster still exists.

If you consider the whole concept, it's brilliant, yet flawed at the same time. Go to one of the few places on the internet where you could convince people to take you seriously as a time traveller, then construct a very solid story as you go, complete with very believable psuedo physics, then skillfully manipulate answers to your questions to aviod making specific immediate references, while making broad predictions about the future that are close enough to take seriously, but not close enough to be tested while it's still an issue. Kind of reminds me of the John Edwards debacle. Psychics operate on many of the same principles. Not sure what the picture of the time machine was. Old military gear is the common theory. The rest of the pictures could have been creatively edited with photoshop. If I had the time on my hands, I could probably create a picture of me standing next to the time machine.

[Wolfmann]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Here's some more. http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/CopyrightProof.cfm

Putting aside the validity of this whole issue...

...if he's the true thing, this is EXACTLY the sort of attitude they would want people to possess, so he would just "go away".

Regardless if he's true or not, the underlieing message he brings is a fair warning for us right now to be mindful of how we conduct ourselves in the future. If he's not...then who cares. Let people decide for themselves, and if they want to believe, they can create a religion or something.

[Wolfmann]

Originally posted by Zantra
If you consider the whole concept, it's brilliant, yet flawed at the same time.

I tend to agree. However, the links that tend to note he's a hoax have been erased or otherwise censored. Is this by design? Most likely.

It is such a devilishly brilliant concept, and the implementation was very convincing. I'll tell you why.

His dialogue is very forward and down to earth. Whoever was posting this honestly believes in himself, his beliefs, even his history. He's either a whack job, or the real thing.

He makes no promises. Which gives him a convenient out, should things not happen. Considering that genetic convergence of 1% of or less can create birth abnormalities and changes, I can imagine what a quantum divurgence of 2.5% would create.

His whole mission is so ludicrous, it's believable. And directly unbelievable at the same time. Easy to dismiss...which gives it some credence. I've seen situations where old, obsolete hardware is powering multi-million dollar facilities. Basically the thinking is, if it ain't broke, it works, why fix it. Pencil detonator's for explosives are akin to this...there are fancy great new electronic detonator's, but they don't always work. 3 Pencil detonators are guaranteed to work. Don't ask me how I know that, I'm ex-Military.

The purpose for him retrieving the machine is not to use it...BUT that it is simply a tool that can read some arcane code. Given the state and the politics of the world, experts are probably few and far between and backyard mechanics are probably here and there. However...you would think that there is something more to the issue. The US Military is embarking on this mission...you'd think they'd have someone that can code in the various languages this machine can interpret and translate...UNLESS there are other languages not acknowledged. Or, of course this is entirely by design. A harbinger.

He's not a scientist. He's a soldier. Take a soldier. He can shoot his rifle, he can clean it. He can even take it apart. He can even be told the physics of how it fires, reloads...etc. But does that mean he'll retain it all? Will he be able to argue the exact tenets of theories, equations, and crap. A lot of the science that is supposedly debunking his own science is premature, and some of it is wrong. But it's where we are now, and we won't be any more advanced until we reach into the future ourselves...at one time we thought the world was square, the center of the universe, and man would never be able to fly, let alone land on the moon...

John Titor's story threatens people. It gives them a glimpse of something uncomfortable, and gives it to them in a meaningful, purposeful way. It also threatens the government. Believe me.

We don't have the specific science to 100% discredit him, and given our advances in science in the last 40 years, who's not say our entire quantum world won't be turned upside down. Tesla was an amazing man. You should do some research into him and the general inaccuracies in the current electro-magnetic theory. If he lived today, he may very well be a John Titor. www.cheniere.org

We also have no indepdent, verifably way to confirm if his science is flawed. According to him, at or about this time (3 years into

With 2.5% divergence...September 11th very well may not have happened, or the previous nuclear disasters may have overshadowed this. It's 25 years in the future, after all. Do you remember the Boer Wars? Grenada? Panama? Even the Gulf War? Thus because he does not come up with exacting and relevant conclusions, doesn't mean he's a hoax, either. Given the issues in the Middle East, I would say that's the first step of him being on-track.

Where do we go from here? True or not, I'm leaning a little bit to the hoax side myself...however if his road map falls out, it'll be interesting to see what happens. His message is a warning for all of us.

If he's wrong, even better...but what will the alternative be? It could be worse.

[Zantra]

Well for those who still hold a degree of acceptance for his claims, there's nothing to do but sit and wait for 2005. Waco/Ruby Ridge type incidents occuring, and escalating until we are engaged in full civil war in 2008 is kinda hard to miss. Of course there were also those proclaiming doom and gloom surrounding the millenium, and it didn't happen. Nothing to do but wait.

[Wolfmann]

There's a bit of leverage in this scenario. Even if we don't see it, there is going to be some sort of cataclysm. Even this 2015 cataclysm seems to come directly out of left field and probably isn't even related to the "civil war".

But it puts every one on the same page.

[RickD]

Hi Rick,
First, thanks for posting. Have there been any serious efforts to debunk this guy? For example, I suspect that his time machine GE/C204 is a mobile receiver unit used by the military.

Iva - some "debunking". Not really anything serious I would say. Most folks have taken a "side" in the issue and most generally I would say everyone has an opinion, scientific or not, but rarely has anyone posted (anywhere to my knowledge) anything other than firm "opinions". My own included in that for that matter.

Pesonally, I have spent a lot of time going through his previous posts of the first couple of years when I wasn't actually involved in communication with him, and I took some of his material and set up an "experiment".

I'll give a few details here.

First I ASSUME for the sake of argument that John Titor IS a time traveler, and second that he is "telling the truth" about everything he says.

Secondly, we took his statement of "I will NOT make ANY predictions" to heart, and assume he makes no "predictions.

Thirdly, since the first and second things above we're assuming are true, we asked questions of him. People asked things like "What is your world like".

Those answers while not "predictions" per se, are statements of "fact" as "he knows it". In other words, if he IS from the future, and he IS telling the truth, and his time line is NOT MUCH different from our own time line, it stands to reason that anything he is telling us is reasonably OUR FUTURE (with some deviation, of 2.5% or so - more on that later).

Thus, we have statements of "fact" about what something is like in the future. This defacto becomes a "prediction" - not in the traditional sense, but a prediction nonetheless.

I took about 100 statements he made and listed them as "predictions". These were statements about how such and such a thing was, or will be, about the nuclear war, the "Waco-like incidents" and so forth.

No where did I find anything about stockmarkets, 9/11 attack, or something like that. Just random, real statements about what the future is like from his personal point of view.

My hypothesis is "John Titor is a Time Traveler" and the proofs will be in the statements, at least on a semi-scientific study of those things he said.

For instance... if 97.5% of the list comes true, then without any doubt in my mind I can say "John Titor is a time traveler". If anything less than that amount comes true, say 85%, then we can say "John is likely a time traveler". If 50% or less comes true we can reasonably say "John was NOT a time traveler".

Here is where I got the numbers.

In the discussions of the time machine there were some "deviation factors". The further you traveled from your origin (2036) the greater the deviation. At 76 years from your point of origin, the actual "time line deviation is 2.5%". Without having much further information than "things start happening differently" (one of his statements which comes to mind) and "the further beyond 76 years, things get weird" (to paraphrase since I don't have the actual material in front of me) I can ONLY make a wild assed assuption here.

That assumption is that any given thing has a 100% chance of happening "again". And the further you drift from a given time line, the more changes will happen. That is, things WON'T happen as they did in say, our time line. (I hope that is clear).

I took 2036 - 76 and that gives me 1960. So if he traveled back to 1976 then things would have been "weird". So, we will assume WORST CASE. That is, he has at least a 2.5% deviation "factor" from his actual time line. That means of 100 RANDOM things in his time line only 97.5 of them will occur as he leaves his time line (left it, is going to leave... whatever!).

Ok.... So... IF John is a TT, then all of the things on that list I typed up long ago ought to occur.

The problem (one of many) is that many of those things were somewhat subjective. That means that even if this were a true scientific experiment (which it is only as close as I could get given the circumstances) then if he is a TT they will come true. At least 97.5% of the 100 things will. Anything LESS indicates that he probably is NOT a real time traveler.

About the Time Machine.... I am a 26 year military veteran. I'm a radio guy by trade. I'm familiar with nearly every sort of radio system the USAF uses anywhere, and most of the Army's gear. I'm familiar with a lot of other radio gear because I've been involved in radio for well over 30 years personally.

In the images we received that were from John, of the time machine, there were things in the images I DO recognize. One is a small yellow box with a big dial on it. That was a geiger counter. I was very familiar with that particular device because I had several of those in some of my old tactical gear many years ago.

As for the time travel "device" itself... I have been unable to find ANYTHING that even comes close - except the external box itself. Someone else (whose name escapes me) actually found a box like that, painted green, made of high impact plastic and is precisely what the military uses to house certain types of gear. Generally gear is transported in them, and not installed as this TT device appeared to be.

In other words, I do not personally believe that the time travel device is actually some other piece of gear that has been modified to look as it does in the images. In other words, it isn't some piece of gear that was made for some other purpose.
Whether or not it is REAL - I can't say. I CAN say though that if I wanted to reproduce a device that looks like that thing, and appears to have some functions, I could do so. I am an electronics engineer.

On the other hand, the schematics I saw, limited as they were had some very interesting aspects to them,and from both an electronics engineering standpoint and physics standpoint they were well drawn (or thought out) and DID indeed APPEAR to come from scans of an original manual.

Other than that, I can't say for sure they were real or hoaxed. If they are a hoax, they are well done.

Now... for the record... and published for what amounts to be the "first time" even though I've said this in chat rooms...

Personally, I do not believe John Titor was a time traveler. I believe he furnished a well done "history", or "psychological study" of the human mind though. He was either a very good SF writer, who was practicing on the rest of us normal humans, or was doing this out of sheer need to attract a large amount of attention. Apparently he did.

On the other hand, being open minded, I will say that until someone proves it absolutely to have been a hoax (with honest records, and hardware - say, the time machine itself) then I will not close out the possibility in my own mind that he was real.

A "true debunker" will have an eye for finding pieces of the puzzle that do not fit, not showing the guy was "an idiot" or "anyone that believes him is an idiot" etc. I've seen WAY too much of that over the past few years. Instead, a real honest to goodness "debunker" will find the parts of his "science" that are wrong. So far, I've not seen anyone do that, not anywhere. Then again, I've not seen everything written on this subject yet and it grows daily. Perhaps we will never know... for sure.

Rick Donaldson

[RickD]

Opps... saw a mistake.

In my previous post I said:

So if he traveled back to 1976 then things would have been "weird".

Should read:

So if he traveled back beyond 1960 then things would have been "weird".

(If he only traveled back to 1978, or 76 or so, then things would be exactly the same in his time line and the one he "landed in".)

[Zantra]

For those of you who missed this, someone contacted many scientists. One who actually bothered to reply was a physicist from Duke University, and he went over the flaws in his explaination of the workings of his time machine, and the inheirent flaws in such a device

This is his response, posted pretty recently.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bb...ic;f=9;t=000482

[phoenixthoth]

yeah. i'd recommend that posters read the thread before posting.

[Pocketwatch]

http://rosecity.net/al_gore/election_map.html

Has anybody noticed the cowboy holding a missle to the west of texas? Maybe that was what Titor wanted us to see.


By the way I don't like what Titor is doing. He appears to be practising mass hypnotism on people. He gives a few 'prophecies' of things that Titor knew would probably happen anyway. Then he describes a simple way to build a time machine. Some people want to believe in a time machine so badly that they go along with his suggestions that he knows the future and they expect it to really happen. Other people are shocked into suggestability by fear of the future.

I believe Titor's secret agenda is to start a war. Be careful about being taken for a ride that ends in disaster!

[phoenixthoth]

"by fear of the future"

"I believe Titor's secret agenda is to start a war."

doubtful that that could be accomplished on discussion forums in which he well knows lots of people will call him a whacko.

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Pocketwatch
[B]http://rosecity.net/al_gore/election_map.html

Has anybody noticed the cowboy holding a missle to the west of texas? Maybe that was what Titor wanted us to see.

You're kidding right? I don't see how you can find a cowboy in all that. Amazing

[Pocketwatch]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth


doubtful that that could be accomplished on discussion forums in which he well knows lots of people will call him a whacko.

Tidor said he had personal rules that he followed unless they conflicted with his secret agenda.

Tidor said that building a time machine was the best way to start a war. (I don't see how he could have known that since he said the machine was built in 2034 and there was no war from 2034 to 2036).

Tidor gave a description of how the time machine was built. He seemed to be telling us how to build one.

He said that we would be better off if half of us were dead.

He said that he would not try to stop the war but we could yet probably wouldn't.

He said that in 2036 that people hated us.

As TT0 he said he personally hated us. He even blamed us for the death of his fiance who died of cancer.

I used the term mass hypnotism because that appears to be the effect he is having on some people. Would you prefer the term psycological terrorism? Tidor was very smooth in answering questions and covering up inconsistancies. Saying things like they use manual typewriters because computer printers did not work well on 12 volt batteries. The lifestyle he described in 2036 sounds like a struggle to survive. Living in tree houses and fishing for a living. How could they be developing the technology needed for building time machines?

Do you choose to believe that Titor's story is true and that he is a real time traveler?

I believe that he is conducting a well prepared experiment to see if he can change the future.

[phoenixthoth]

all i said, and/or meant, was that it is doubtful that anyone can start a war on a discussion forum. if that's his game, he chose poor tactics. go back and study his sun tzu, he should.

that opinion had nothing to do with whether or not i believe him. i'm utterly undecided.

[Pocketwatch]

Originally posted by Zantra
You're kidding right? I don't see how you can find a cowboy in all that. Amazing

May be that Titor is just trying to influence the 2004 election. If so what party do you think he is favouring?

That sounds better at least than Titor trying to start a war on purpose.

[phoenixthoth]

i don't think the best way to start a war is on discussion forums.

i would blackmail a (group of) translator(s). so the next time the dude says "we come in peace" the translator can say "you will kneel trembling before us and obey my brutal commands," although it might be confusing as to why there were so many more words in the translation than the original... i'm sure such loose ends could be tied up.

;)

[Ivan Seeking]

For crying out loud...look at the number of views of this thread!

[8)]

[Smart Guy]

It is possible that a person was sent here to prevent some great catastrophe, but lets just be real. B.S military documents and pictures of some contraption you would find in radioshack(a well stocked Radioshack). We are sceptical by nature that's why there are Physics Forums. Our future military would have sent more stuff with him than a manual. Time Travel Yes Titor No.

[Zantra]

Dear god this thread just won't die[o)]

[phoenixthoth]

Our future military would have sent more stuff with him than a manual.
when i envision a pilot of an apache flying in iraq, i don't envision that pilot having anything more than a manual for an apache, if that.

[Smart Guy]

But if that Apache Pilot fley back in time to WWII With information from the future the craft itself would be evidence. John Titor Had a shot Gun(not even a good one just some old chrome sawed off pump) and a Corvette. I can soup up a vette. Also he would know how his vehicle worked so he could fix any problems that would prevent his return trip. At least Smart Guy would.

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Did anyone ask this Titor guy if he had a dog called Einstein?

Just a thought[:))]

[Tweek]

Well I guess we have less then a year till civil war! Come on guys he claims that his corvette is a time machine! [:D] I think it would be a fun to live the world inside his head.

[phoenixthoth]

we already do.

[Smart Guy]

Originally posted by Tweek
Well I guess we have less then a year till civil war! Come on guys he claims that his corvette is a time machine! [:D] I think it would be a fun to live the world inside his head.

I guess it would be fun to live in the imagination. As long as you were able to return back to the real world. Then you would not need a time machine.[6)]

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Thinking about Titor ...

In my unlearned opinion, Time Travel is impossible and will always be (confined?) in the realms of Science-Fiction and flights of imaginary fancy.

TT is like the Fermi Paradox concerning the existance (or not) of ETs. If Men from the future can travel backwards in time then they would surely be here by now. Of course, this doesn't take into account the possibility of multiple timelines!

Some points to consider against the likelihood of TT:

1. Fact - The Universe is continuously expanding. Theory - The connections between superstrings must be expanding accordingly.

The atomic structure of a Time Traveller from the future would be comprised of 'larger' superstrings. Therefore, his very appearance in an earlier (smaller superstring) era would create a shift in the universal equilibrium, with possible devastating results for all.

2. Fact - As space expands, the Solar System is continously moving - and pretty darned fast too! Any Time Traveller coming from even a few days into the future (let alone three decades as Titor claimed) would find himself stranded in space (unless his Time Vehicle is a spacecraft too - and not many Corvettes are!).

3. Fact - The Time Traveller is comprised of matter. Matter redistributed by consumption/absorption et cetera from other external sources (we are all made from starstuff!). This matter would exist in a different form prior to the Time Traveller eating it. This different form would exist in the Time Traveller's past (our present). Which means upon appearing in our time, identical atoms would suddenly exist in two places at once! Paradox! Our universe would suddenly contain MORE matter than it did a moment before. Since matter and energy are inter-transferable, this would destabilize the universal equilibrium, again with untold bad results.

4. Fact - Nature likes balance. Moving matter/energy through the timeline willy-nilly would go against the grain. Chaos would surely result, and we all know nature cleaves to order. Theory - No Creator in His right mind would allow it. I wouldn't!

[phoenixthoth]

what's your definition of time travel?

ever heard of time-dilation in special relativity? perhaps you have but that doesn't fit your definition of time travel.

to me, "proving" a feat is impossible based solely on a finite amount of past experience is risky. in other words, arguments like feat X has never happened in the t years i've been observing the universe implies that feat X will NEVER happen. i'd be much more inclined to think it may be very unlikely but not neccessarily impossible.

does "event A is impossible" mean that P(A)=0?

if P(A)=0, A is still possible. for example, consider flipping a coin infinitely many times. consider the event that all results are heads: A={heads, heads, heads, ...}={a_n} where a_n=heads for all n. P(A)=0 but it is still possible that it will always be heads. actually, any outcome has probability 0. {heads,tails,heads,tails,...} also has probability 0 but it could still happen.

i'm guess that by impossible, you mean that literally.

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

... mmm.

My references were strictly restricted to the macro-universe side of the time travel fence.

Time is relative - so in a sense everyone and everything is time-travelling in it's own subjectivity.

I didn't literally mean that because I (or we) had not personally witnessed a time traveller in our years of observation that that was my 'proof' discaliming time travel.

What I meant was, that if you think of time as a two-way street then someone ought to have travelled back in time to our era by now and proved it's eventual invention (or discovery) in some far future.

It's common sense, as I see it.

Surely, if time travel was a reality in the future then surely some unscrupulous individuals would steal the technology and use it for their own ill-gotten means. This is the nature of Man. Since our history so far has not recorded any such events (that we recognize as such) then it is fairly likely to say that no-one has travelled back in time to any period prior to our present - or else we'd have evidence to some degree or another.

?

[phoenixthoth]

this is an argument stephen hawking mentions as well.

i'm not sure how old mankind is. in other words, i'm not sure how long homo sapiens have been around. and how long we've been using language, tools, etc...

but let's say that homo sapiens has been around since year x. i would guess that (2003 - x)>15000 but i'm not sure.

let's pretend, for a moment, that time travel, back and forward, is possible and it gets invented in the year 2003+y, y years from now. the set of times for which mankind will have existed by then is
[x, 2003+y] which is the same as [x,2003]&cup;[2003,2003+y]. the age of mankind by then will be 2003 - x + y. just for the sake of making a calculation, let's say that the probability of a time traveler coming from a year in [2003+y,&infin;) to any specific year in [x, 2003+y] is equally likely. to say it will be more likely to come in [1900,2003+y], for example, is to guess what time travelers would be more interested. although by that argument, it's also a guess that any time travelers would be interested in the interval
[x,2003+y] and not something before that. so let's for the moment pretend all years in [x,2003+y] are equally likely to receive visits from a time traveller in [2003+y,&infin;). then the probability that a time traveler will visit any particular year, decade, and century are given, respectively, by
P1=1/(2003 - x + y),
P10=10/(2003 - x + y),
P100=100/(2003 - x + y).

i think it's pretty safe to assume that 2003 - x > 15000 and y > 5. this gives upper bounds on P1, P10, and P100:
P1<1/15005&asymp;0.0000666445
P10<10/15005&asymp;0.000666445
P100<100/15005&asymp;0.00666445.

for example, the probability that a time traveler visits the 21st century is less than 0.007. and this was assuming y > 5, time travel is invented only 5 years from now. it could be that y>10000 which would lower the upper bounds.

however, this is only the probability that one time travler visits a time in the interval [x, 2003+y]. there could be, of course, a googleplex of time travelers coming from the interval [2003+y,&infin;) which would raise the odds of there being at least one visitor to a random year.

the probability of there being at least one is equivalent to there being 1 or 2 or 3 or ... time travelers. then the probability of there being at least one time traveler to any given century would be approximated by some infinite series:
P100(n&ge;1)=SUM[ (100/(2003 - x + y))n : n&ge;1]. this geometric series has sum 100/(1903 - x + y) if i did all the math right. this isn't hugely bigger than 100/(2003 - x + y) since the odds of n time travelers visiting a particular century get lower when n gets larger. assuming 1903 - x > 14900 and y > 5, the probability that at least one time traveler comes in any particular century is at most 0.00670916. at most. now if y is much bigger than 5, in other words if time travel is invented more than 5 years from now, the upper bound lowers. if y>1000 then the new upper bound for the probability of at least one time traveler coming to any particular century is 0.00628931, about one-sixth as likely as getting blackjack in one game of 21.

therefore, the argument "why haven't they come yet" is not something that i put much stock in.

[revesz]

I guess the best answer is to just sit back and wait.

I decided to write down his predictions, if they come true then i'll start to think about it.

[one_raven]

I haven't read this entire thread yet, so please forgive me if I am saying something that has been said already.

There is one simple reason to not believe that this is true.
He claims that the multiple worlds theory is true.

If the mulitple worlds theory is true, wouldn't time travel (especially with the intention of "warning" us about the future to come) be completely pointless?

If the multiple worlds theory is true, then there are in infinite number of worldlines existing simultaneously, and an infinite number constantly being created.
If he traveled back in time, what would bring him to this particular worldline?
Why?

If every possible outcome WILL happen what is so special and significant about THIS worldline?

If he is a soldier, the military would only send him back if he had a specific purpose (such as to prevent this nuclear war), but.

Regardless of whether or not he stops this event in X worldline it will still happen in another. What is the point of creating a new worldline in which it doesn't?

Whatever he does, whoever he convinces, there will be no effect to his traveling back in time, so there would be no point.

In the many worlds scenario, you can't go back and change the past, you can just go back and create new worldlines.
It is similar to going to the beach and dropping a pinch of salt in the ocean.

The event would still happen.
He would just create a new worldline in which it doesn't.

[bloodnok]

one_raven: I dont agree with the "what are the chances" argument, because it's like denying the possibility of winning the lottery based on probability when you're standing there with the cheque for $1m :)

I stumbled on the whole John Titor thing a couple of weeks ago and it was a very interesting read. I tend to think (and Occam may agree), that it's most likely to be a physics grad with lots of spare time having a bit of fun with the Art Bell crowd... however if you treat him as a social observer/commentator then he raises some very valid points. Our society so needs what he described.

I'm only an armchair physicist, so I cant really comment on the whole time-travel mechanism he mentions. All I can say is that he doesnt stoop to "movie-like" time travel - brilliant spinning vortices of light, star-trek warp drives, Delorians and flux-capacitors - which indicates that (assuming he's a crank) he's put a bit of thought into his story.

[wasteofo2]

Originally posted by one_raven
I haven't read this entire thread yet, so please forgive me if I am saying something that has been said already.

There is one simple reason to not believe that this is true.
He claims that the multiple worlds theory is true.

If the mulitple worlds theory is true, wouldn't time travel (especially with the intention of "warning" us about the future to come) be completely pointless?

If the multiple worlds theory is true, then there are in infinite number of worldlines existing simultaneously, and an infinite number constantly being created.
If he traveled back in time, what would bring him to this particular worldline?
Why?

If every possible outcome WILL happen what is so special and significant about THIS worldline?

If he is a soldier, the military would only send him back if he had a specific purpose (such as to prevent this nuclear war), but.

Regardless of whether or not he stops this event in X worldline it will still happen in another. What is the point of creating a new worldline in which it doesn't?

Whatever he does, whoever he convinces, there will be no effect to his traveling back in time, so there would be no point.

In the many worlds scenario, you can't go back and change the past, you can just go back and create new worldlines.
It is similar to going to the beach and dropping a pinch of salt in the ocean.

The event would still happen.
He would just create a new worldline in which it doesn't.

Titors stated reason for "travelling back in time" was that he needed some computer thing, not to stop the war or whatever he claimed would happen by his time.

[JazzyJAC]

This has to be false, use common sense. Our current generation, "The Hip Generation", won't talk like this idiot did. His post would be more, like fo shizzle, ya'll be some wacked fools to believe all dis hype, ya know wat I'm sayin:). Note the shortening of words and the continuing trend for language to change, his language was much too 2000ish!

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Interesting.

There is also the amazingly obvious point of why on earth any time traveller would expose himself so publicly.

Any half moron would try to avoid being discovered - not go out of his way to broadcast his existance!

I'm afraid old John was yet another false prophet - fitting for his timely arrival at the turn of the Millennium.

[o)]

[9 monkeez]

John Titor is a mind control technique used by the original Illuminatti to start a civil war.
Be aware.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by 9 monkeez
John Titor is a mind control technique used by the original Illuminatti to start a civil war.
Be aware.

yep, that's what I mean by debunking [;)]

[9 monkeez]

Debunk?
Time travel is not world line jumping.
Hmm.....k, bye.

[phatmonky]

haha, man, this guy is a utopian nut who is trying to scare people into changing their ways.....

I loved the last line of this.....
(33) We live in a world recovering from years of war, poison, destruction and hate. All of it, courtesy of the thinking and actions of people that live right now in the same world you do, worrying about which stocks to buy or whether or not a stranger is lying to them on the Internet.


Now someone, explain to me why this is his answer...
Are some areas of the United States safer than others?
(42) Take a close look at the county-by-county voting map from the last elections.

[phatmonky]

What type of money do you use in 2036?

Its not very different than it is now. Yes, we have money and credit cards.
However, like everything else, the monetary system is decentralized. Banking
is based mostly around the community structure. There are no multinational
banking or computerized economic systems. There are also no income taxes.


Is there an IRS?


Yes, we pay taxes. Sounds like you don't enjoy keeping track of your
personal income taxes. I don't think anyone does.


There we go :)

[9 monkeez]

Even the earliest American settlers payed property taxes...
What a thrill that would have been to be able to steak a claim.
Cheers!

[Evo]

Nothing he says makes any sense and he appears to be contradicting himself. For example, here he is explaining his "mission".

On my worldline, it is known that the 5100 series is capable of reading all the IBM code written before the widespread use of APL and Basic. Unfortunately, there are none left that anyone can find on my world line.Ok, NO 5100's exist in 2036.

You said you are confused by the 5100 story. I will explain further. In 2036, it was discovered (or at least known after testing) that the 5100 computer was capable of reading and changing all of the legacy code written by IBM before the release of that system and still be able to create new code in APL and basic but they were able to do testing with them

That is the reason we need it in 2036. However, IBM never published that information because it would have probably destroyed a large part of their business infrastructure in the early 70s. In fact, I would bet the engineers were probably told to keep their mouth's shut.even though no one knew about it.

But wait!!! In the first paragraph he said "on my worldline, it is KNOWN that the 5100 series is capable of reading all the IBM code...

Am I missing something here?

[9 monkeez]

Ah.....quotes:

"Yes, I think the New World Order idea tried to establish itself. I would consider them the combination of the old U.S. federal system, Europe, Canada and Australia."

Good observation.
Yeah, John Titor said alot of kookie stuff.
I would be more interested in where he eventually got the computer from, and who tested it for use prior to it being "tweaked" by his Grandfather.
Did we send any of these computers overseas?




"A boss dj aint nothin but a man."
bradley- SUBLIME

[Evo]

Another problem I have with his story is that he had to go back to 1975 and have his grandfather "specially tweak" the 5100 in order for the people in 2036 to fix a Unix problem.

The first "leg" of my trip was from 2036 to 1975. After two VGL checks, the divergence was estimated at about 2.5% (from my 2036). I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming languages in addition to APL and Basic. We need they system to "debug" various legacy computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.
As you are probably aware, UNIX will have a timeout error in 2038 and many of the mainframe systems that ran a large part of the infrastructure were based on very old IBM computer code. The 5100 has the ability to easily translate between the old IBM code, APL, BASIC and (with a few tweaks in 1975) UNIX. I do believe that "your" UNIX will also have a problem in 2038. I don't think that's a secret but maybe someone should put a 5100 aside for thirty years or so. It is a common misconception that UNIX is IBM.

Ok, my memory could be failing me here, but since I worked for that company whose labs invented Unix back in 1969 (it was NOT IBM). I am wondering how his grandfather would have had access to UNIX source code back then.

But maybe I am misunderstanding?

[The_Professional]

They could've also tried tracing his IP address, on the forums he visited. Research and a bit of Social engineering may have gotten some quality proof of his identity.

[Evo]

Originally posted by The_Professional
They could've also tried tracing his IP address, on the forums he visited. Research and a bit of social engineering may have gotten some quality proof of his identity. Yes, I doubt he was spoofing his address, a very good point.

[crystalbreeze32]

I wonder if this fascinating story has influenced a certain Michael Pennington who makes some very far fetched claims about his life after his death and he uses the internet in the same way. He got a big following on the forum he was posting and its one of the largest threads I have ever seen but things got ****ty with people arguing and it died out. I typed in 'michael pennington ghost forum' in Google and there is loads of stuff about him on a lot of forums.

The orginal one is at www.birminghamuk.com/forum but theres many others. The story seems to follow the same pattern as John Titors and he answered questions and used a computer to communicate with people and other spirits.

There even appears to be his own page but its far from finished as we read much more of the story on the forums.

http://www.geocities.com/michaelpennington1971/

[chief]

I don't have time to read this whole thread right now. I skimmed through it and didn't see anything about this, but if it is a repost, I apologize.

I stumbled across this while researching the Titor story. It is a fantasy role playing game (written before Titor's posts) with a remarkably similar story line to Titor's predictions. I found it interesting. I think this confirms that this was all a hoax. An elaborate and well thought out hoax, but still a hoax. Thoughts?

http://www.spearweasel.com/rpg/twheel/darkfutr.htm

[Russell E. Rierson]

The classical theories can't be quite right with regards to absolute determinism, as evidenced by the presence of Heisenberg uncertainty. Matter-energy in the universe, is subject to fluctuations, and a particle's position/momentum cannot be predicted precisely. Hence, quantum theory enters the picture in order to "quantify" the uncertainty. There is yet to be a full quantum theory of gravity, but string theory appears to be making progress towards that goal.

According to Stephen Hawking, all of the events on a worldline have a timelike connection to each other. A worldline is defined as a continuous stream of events occurring to a physical object. Basically, the worldine of an object is a timelike curve/path in space-time.

Wormholes: Theoretically speaking, by going through a wormhole, an object can return to an event a second time. A wormhole is a nontrivial connection through curved space-time. A shortcut that allows interstellar travel, and even "time" travel.

All sorts of time paradoxes can be envisioned via time travel scenarios. Now if reverse time travel becomes possible in our future, why aren't we flooded with tourists and historians FROM the future?

Back to the topic, if everything is information, processed by a gigantic multiverse computer simulation, then by travelling backwards in time, just the presence of our atoms starts a chain of cause and effect that drastically alters the future events, creating a new timeline.

This "John Titor" tale/delusion is a strange one. He mentioned something about "microsingularities"? ...The term "microsingularity" appears to be pure Star Trek jargon.

Stephen Hawking did write about miniature black holes though!

And here is a link explaining how miniature black holes could be created in a particle accelerator:

Scientists Expect To "See" Miniature Black Holes


http://www.spacedaily.com/news/blackhole-01b.html


"If certain theories of nature are correct, then black holes would be produced in high-energy collisions of particles in particle accelerators," said Giddings. These theories go by the generic name of "TeV-scale gravity."

[IooqXpooI]

Titor was a fake...I'll find my reasons sometime soon, but you can look at timetravelforum.tk for me...;)

[oog]

This "John Titor" tale/delusion is a strange one. He mentioned something about "microsingularities"? ...The term "microsingularity" appears to be pure Star Trek jargon.


Star trek, since it's inception has always been based on science fact, not fiction. By fact obviously I mean theory.

There is theory in place for everything ever discussed on star trek, and presumably mentioned by Titor. It has been shown time and time again by various methods and theories that time travel is possible, albeit unpractical at present.. To say with absolute certainty that he is fraud is, IMO a bad choice.

I am not suggesting that it could be said with any certainty that he is NOT a fraud, but to absolutely rule out either would be wrong. In the computer field researchers discover/learn as much each year as the previous ten. Taking this factoid and applying it to quantum mechanics and time travel theory would then show that clearly at present we simply do not have enough information to make a definate choice whether Titor is legit or not.

It is human nature to disbelieve, however, just look at the histories of all great theorists: Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Tesla, etc.. at one point they were all thought to be crazy/delusional. ;)

Also, not being able to find information on "microsingularities" is not surprising, since he clearly stated that they would be discovered during 'high energy experiments' at CERN.. likely refering to their new particle accellerator, which isn't slated to be operational until 2007.

[oog]

Incidentally...

I know there were at one point a number of people wondering what this mystical problem with unix is. This Page (http://maul.deepsky.com/%7Emerovech/2038.html) explains what the problem is and a sufficient patch..

Essentially it's similar to the Y2K bug, since the unix time-code will expire Jan 19th 2038... the only thing that seems strange about this aspect of the story is then:

Why, since there would be at least a little over a year left, are they unable to correct the problem without the use of the IBM 5100? That obviously raises other questions...

[Math Is Hard]

Star trek, since it's inception has always been based on science fact, not fiction. By fact obviously I mean theory.


You're absolutely correct on that. From what I have heard, Roddenberry consulted extensively with physicists. He was no slacker on his research, even though occasionally the laws of science were bent to fit a good plot.


Here's some enjoyable reading on that for anyone who is interested:
http://ssdoo.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/just_for_fun/startrek.html

I have to say I enjoyed the John Titor tales, but I am the gullible sort :wink:

[russ_watters]

Star trek, since it's inception has always been based on science fact, not fiction. By fact obviously I mean theory.

There is theory in place for everything ever discussed on star trek, and presumably mentioned by Titor. It has been shown time and time again by various methods and theories that time travel is possible, albeit unpractical at present.. To say with absolute certainty that he is fraud is, IMO a bad choice. Not quite. I'm a proud owner of the Star Trek TNG Technical Manual and though it makes fascinating reading, it is not based on real science. As a matter of fact, it even includes a disclaimer in the preface meant for the writers: don't see this manual as a limit to your creativity.

It also discusses the concept of "technobabble." When the writers don't know what technobabble to insert into a specific situation, they just write the word "tech" and someone fills in the babble later. Yes, it really is true: the vast majority of what they say is utterly meaningless.

As for time travel itself - no, it isn't even theoretically possible. It is specifically prohibited by the laws of physics.

[Evo]

Incidentally...

I know there were at one point a number of people wondering what this mystical problem with unix is. This Page (http://maul.deepsky.com/%7Emerovech/2038.html) explains what the problem is and a sufficient patch..

Essentially it's similar to the Y2K bug, since the unix time-code will expire Jan 19th 2038... the only thing that seems strange about this aspect of the story is then:

Why, since there would be at least a little over a year left, are they unable to correct the problem without the use of the IBM 5100? That obviously raises other questions...It's not actually a bug but a limitation that was always known would have to be dealt with and is not really a large concern.

"This is only limited to UNIX systems that use a 32-bit signed
time_t . As such its not applicable to all UNIX systems, and
not limited only to UNIX systems.
Other systems using a 32-bit signed time_t have similar problems,
the exact problem date being determined when their time epoch
starts."

http://www.opengroup.org/platform/ballots/p2000.1-recirc

"the 2038 problem does NOT need massive changes to APIs;
in fact, it can be dealt with without ANY changes to APIs, though with
a few minor changes to implementations, and many changes to programs
that don't use the APIs. Just specify time_t to be at least 40 bits;
it is an opaque integer type, so all conforming programs will
continue to work, won't they? :-)"

http://www.opengroup.org/platform/single_unix_specification/show_mail.tpl?source=L&listname=austin-group-l&id=2158

Most systems using 32 bit have already been replaced with 64 bit.

Titor's story is plagued with nonsense and inconsistencies. It only takes a tiny bit of commonsense to see it for what it is, a story.

Russ, great post. I'm a Star Trek Next Generation Fan, and also was a fan of the original show (yes, I watched it when it was originally on). What I wouldn't give for a replicator!! or a holodeck!!! :tongue: A friend of mine likes to point out all of the serious flaws with the "physics", he ruined it for me. :frown:

[Ivan Seeking]

As for time travel itself - no, it isn't even theoretically possible. It is specifically prohibited by the laws of physics.


I agree with everything else that you said but the latest that I have read says that there may be ways to get around this limitation. You might check in with Kaku for starters. My understanding is that we don't know if time travel will ever be possible; at least in principle. We used to think not but now we're not sure. If it is possible it may never be practical due to the energy requirements.

Did you mean this as an opinion?

[russ_watters]

Did you mean this as an opinion? Well - there are some QM implications on time travel, but in my opinion (there it is), that's not relevant to the question since humans don't live in a quantum-scale world. Russ, great post. I'm a Star Trek Next Generation Fan, and also was a fan of the original show (yes, I watched it when it was originally on). What I wouldn't give for a replicator!! or a holodeck!!! A friend of mine likes to point out all of the serious flaws with the "physics", he ruined it for me. Evo, no doubt you have noticed that I'm a real stickler for scientific accuracy - I hated "Armageddon" and refuse to see "The Core," but I'm still a Star Trek fan. What gets me is when people get their science from the media and don't realize it isn't science.

Also, maybe, there can be a distinciton between "science fiction" and "science fantasy." Like with James Bond - the things he does aren't possible, but that's ok: He's James Bond. "Armageddon" and "The Core" both had science advisors and both claimed to be true to science in their characterizations of it.

[Evo]

What gets me is when people get their science from the media and don't realize it isn't science.Actually it's kind of scary how many people's knowledge of science is primarily based on the media.

"Armageddon" and "The Core" both had science advisors and both claimed to be true to science in their characterizations of it.Oh come on Russ, you don't believe in the scientific accuracy of those two fine movies? :wink: (I haven't seen either one)

[Ivan Seeking]

Well - there are some QM implications on time travel, but in my opinion (there it is), that's not relevant to the question since humans don't live in a quantum-scale world.

The possiblities are not limited to quantum sized objects. From what I have read in sources like The Future of Spacetime, the more likely limitation is energy. There is also one solution to the grandfather paradox that seems to resolve the paradox but still allows for time travel.

[Evo]

Ivan, are you familiar with Ronald Mallett? I saw a documentary about his research into time travel on a special that TLC did back in December. It was very interesting. For the first time I started thinking this could be a form of "time travel" that might work, but it is not the type of time travel that we are familiar with from books and films. Power is the main drawback people see to this working.

Basically here is the gist of what he's thinking, this from an article I will also post a link to.

Why you haven't met someone from the future

However, putting Ronald's theory into practice presents plenty of problems. For example, the temperature of the ring would have to be close to absolute zero (-273°C), so humans would find it difficult to use. It would also be impossible to travel back to a time before the machine was switched on. This explains why people from the future haven't visited us - we are yet to build a time machine for them to exit from.

Ronald hopes that travellers from the future may be able to overcome these difficulties and use the rings of light that we construct today as portals to our time.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/wormholes/default.htm

This is an excerpt from a "layman's explanation" of Mallet's paper.

Nearly 50 years later, Mallett may be on the verge of building the world's first operative "time machine," though it will bear little relation to that of Wells, or to the DeLorean sports car of the movie Back to the Future, or the Tardis of Dr. Who or any of the other hundreds of time traveling mechanisms that have been imagined since Wells first took a crack at it.

Mallett's machine, as laid out in his May 2000 paper in Physics Letters entitled "Weak gravitational field of the electromagnetic radiation in a ring laser," is based on Einstein's formulation that light and matter are both forms of energy.

We know that matter can bend space-time and according to Einstein's theory, matter and light are both forms of energy. So why can't light bend space-time?

This fall, with UConn colleague Dr. Chandra Raychoudri, Mallett will begin work on building a "ring laser"--basically, a device that will create a circulating light beam, perhaps within a photonic crystal that will bend the light's trajectory and slow it down.

Then, a neutron particle will be sent into the space in the center of the beam. In short, the beam--perhaps two beams in one model, with the light traveling in opposite directions--is expected to twist the space-time inside the circle into a loop.

Think of a spoon stirring thick gravy in a pot and creating a vortex, only the vortex in this case is the fabric of space-time twisting, with past, present and future, circling one another so that the future precedes the past.
Then--and while this might not seem very exciting--a neutron, a small particle of matter--will be sent into the center of the beam. If its spin is affected, then it is being affected by warped space-time.

In a further experiment that Mallett has considered, two identical samples of a radioactive substance could be put into the center of the ring, one going in the direction of the beam. The other in the opposite direction. Since radioactivity decays at a measurable rate, it would be possible to measure, in effect, the time that both particles had experienced within the beam. If the time proves to be different, then time will have been measurably altered.

Eventually, says Mallett, "what would be neat is if you saw another neutron in there that you hadn't introduced yet." In essence, the same neutron "visiting itself from the future."

So you've moved a neutron. So what?

What Mallett will have shown--if it works--is that the fabric of time itself can be altered by light, and a thing can be moved into the past. If it works for a neutron, in theory, it would work for you and me.

http://www.walterzeichner.com/thezfiles/timetravel.html

Mallett's paper "Weak gravitational field of the electromagnetic radiation in a ring laser"

http://temporology.bio.msu.ru/EREPORTS/mallett.pdf

[Ivan Seeking]

Over the years I have read about perhaps a dozen designs or concepts that might in principle at least be capable of causing time travel [as we think of it]. I am pretty sure that I have seen this one before.

There is an interesting proof that potentially resolves at least one variation of the grandfather paradox. I don't know how the mathematical proof is done - I don't even know if I could understand it - but it can apparently be shown that by using billiard balls to recreate the paradox, nature does force a real and non-paradoxical solution. First a few simple steps are needed. The entrance to a time machine is place in the corner pocket with the exit from the machine at the side pocket. Keeping in mind the core problem with the grandfather paradox, a billiard ball is placed at the corner most distant from the time machine's entrance. The ball is hit in a straight line so that it enters the time machine, passes through, and emerges from the side pocket a few moments ealier; just in time to hit itself thus preventing its entry into the machine - i.e. into the corner pocket. Since if the ball never went into the corner it can't emerge from the side pocket to deflect its own path, the essence of the grandfather paradox is duplicated. It turns out that the ball can be made to interfere with itself but not sufficiently so as to cause the ball to miss the corner pocket. In other words, the path can be deflected but not enough to create a paradox. Something within this thought experiment implicitly prevents a genuine paradox from ever occurring.

[Evo]

Over the years I have read about perhaps a dozen designs or concepts that might in principle at least be capable of causing time travel [as we think of it]. I am pretty sure that I have seen this one before.
This one is different. It's not time travel as we think of it. It's opening a portal now that in the future someone could send something back to us, even if it is only a neutron. Time travel for humans may never be possible, but this concept of opening a portal is intriguing. We ourselves could not use it.

[Math Is Hard]

Since if the ball never went into the corner it can't emerge from the side pocket to deflect its own path, the essence of the grandfather paradox is duplicated. It turns out that the ball can be made to interfere with itself but not sufficiently so as to cause the ball to miss the corner pocket. In other words, the path can be deflected but not enough to create a paradox. Something within this thought experiment implicitly prevents a genuine paradox from ever occurring.

So does this prove that God does not play pool with the universe, either? :wink:

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Since time is relative ... it remains relative to we human beings.

Time is a construct of the human psyche. The universe itself keeps no time. The transition of energy signals via Static Photon Vibration Theory across regions of 'flat' space-time (that account for 99% of the universe) is instantaneous. No time passes for something travelling at light speed.

Time is our own phenomenon. God is probably laughing Himself silly watching us play around with this bizarre concept!

Static Photon Vibration ..... www.photonoceab.tk

Makes sense.

[Zantra]

I haven't forgotten about this guy, so I just wanted to remind all of you.

It is interesting how world events are unfolding isn't it? Bush is completely screwing up our reputation around the world, skirting the geneva convention, and basically going off the deep end. Al Gore is the 2nd person this week to call bush a "bungling idiot" and I wholeheartedly agree. But I digress. I'm not on my political soapbox, but I feel that things are eerily ringing with truth to some of the things Titor said.

He said that right around the time of election time 2004 the chaos would begin. He said that it will be a civil conflict where our personal rights would be taken from us under the guise of protection. And he asked us "how many civil liberties would you be willing to sacrifice in the name of safety?".

Bush already presented that bill giving police and government agencies more freedom to search and sieze without as much probable cause. And people who were 9-11 suspects were held for months without due process. But I can see the public feeding from the innate fears that the government is breeeding. The color coded alert system, homeland security. Now Abu Gharabi prisoners being mistreated. Titor referenced the Waco incident, and inferred that the government covered up something.

Now while I'm not building a bunker in South America just yet, the vision Titor presented-which when I first read it sounded impossible, is starting to seem a lot more plausible with the direction Bush has been taking. Would you give up your right to due process in the name of ferretting out potential terrorists? Would you allow yourself to be questioned, your house to be ransacked, if only by mistake, so that potential terrorist cells could be found and prevented? I for one, would not. The day that happens... Well all I can say is "Ohhhh Cananda...".

Was Titor ever fully discredited? I don't believe so. Like I said, I'm not looking for 5 people within a 100 miles of me who I can trust with my life- but I will rest a lot easier when bush is out of office and there aren't quite so many similarities between the titor predictions and reality.

[Evo]

Titor said that Bush is re-elected in 2004, or perhaps I assumed it was Bush. Perhaps Kerry is the one that Titor says causes the war?

"Your enemy was in the cities. Was the President in 2005 also on the enemy side? How did you feel personally about the President then?
The President or "leader" in 2005 I believe tried desperately to be the next Lincoln and hold the country together but many of their policies drove a larger wedge into the Bill of Rights."

Also, the stuff Titor was spewing has all been said before by all too many. It's nothing new, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Here is a mistake Titor made that has already been disproved.

"13. We don't know what's on Mars yet."

I guess he didn't know about the Mars rovers that were due to land on Mars in 2004. :biggrin:

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

From reading into a great deal of what this alledged time traveller had to say, I got the gist he just about covered all the bases, as well as being pretty vague on details at the same time.

This is an old trick spawned by the earliest 'so-called' spiritual mediums.

Anyone with a slice of home-cooked intelligence could banter on about events that are going to happen henceforth without committing themselves to precise details.

For example, if I were to say that in the year 2007 there is going to be a bad earthquake on the Pacific Rim ... then there is a pretty safe bet that my prediction will be borne out. This is not because I have travelled back from the future to share my historical wisdoms, it is simply because I already know the Pacific Rim area (which covers 1000s of miles) is prone to volcanism and quake activity, and the likelihood of there being an event is something like 1 in every so many years.

This hypothesis, coupled with the fact that no one will refute, dispute or challenge it if it doesn't occur in 2007, all leads to me looking pretty clued up on the predictions market.

www.photonocean.tk

[nix]

he was probably just a man who had nothing better to do with his time...(i didnt read all of what he said..but if he was on some big sanctioned time travel mission why did he stay for 4 months to socialize?)
..he made predictions just specific enough so that in the near future we could fit events in for the purpose of convincing ourselves that truth actually lied behind what he said...all the same ill be happier when this year is over and nothing like a civil war is starting up...and right now im just happy im Canadian :wink:

[gravenewworld]

I don't understand why people believe the BS. Come on seriously, a guy travels from the future to spend his time posting on an internet forum, that is really believable. Couldn't he do something more productive? Also his claim that Russia will nuke China and the US is extremely hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that Russia and its citizens are willing to commit suicide. Russia funding a war? LOL That country's economy has been in the toilet for years, what will they arm their soldiers with sticks? Terrorism is a much more serious threat to the US and other nations than Russia. Yes his posts are entertaining but seriously people have been watching too many movies.

[numberPI]

i think time traveling will never be possible... why? because knowing the human sense of stupidity, someone would've already screw things up "returning" to the past and altering it.. or any sort of error.

[d28_2012]

Hey If your interested in John Titor you might want to join my yahoo group: -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/John_Titor_UK/
theres loads of links and pictures for you to check out and a message board.

[Zantra]

bumping this because.. well it's good for site traffic

[Ivan Seeking]

Hey there stranger. :biggrin:

[Oyéah]

Most of us don't know what is on Mars yet. We have been shown what the cameras see, once they have been screened. In the first images, I saw plenty of things in the sky, then that stopped. I have seen before and after depressions in the ground that look like, oh foot prints, shall we say? I don't think that people are walking around on Mars, I think they are in the American Southwest, at least one of the rovers, looks to be near the Henry Mountains.

In the last two weeks, the government currently in power has stated that they might postpone the election if there are terrorist acts at the time of the conventions. President Bush is warning that there are going to be anarchists at the Republican convention. I think that the current government is going to have a hard time letting go, in fact, I don't think they will let go, even if they are voted out of office. I think this scenario is setting up exactly as described.

[Evo]

Most of us don't know what is on Mars yet. We have been shown what the cameras see, once they have been screened. In the first images, I saw plenty of things in the sky, then that stopped. I have seen before and after depressions in the ground that look like, oh foot prints, shall we say? I don't think that people are walking around on Mars, I think they are in the American Southwest, at least one of the rovers, looks to be near the Henry Mountains. :uhh:

In the last two weeks, the government currently in power has stated that they might postpone the election if there are terrorist acts at the time of the conventions. President Bush is warning that there are going to be anarchists at the Republican convention. I think that the current government is going to have a hard time letting go, in fact, I don't think they will let go, even if they are voted out of office. I think this scenario is setting up exactly as described.Titor said that there would be a major Waco, TX like event every month in 2004 before the November elections. Let's see, this is the 7th month and so far, Titor has struck out 7 times in a row. The Titor thing was a hoax, and a very poor one at that.

[selfAdjoint]

:uhh:

Titor said that there would be a major Waco, TX like event every month in 2004 before the November elections. Let's see, this is the 7th month and so far, Titor has struck out 7 times in a row. The Titor thing was a hoax, and a very poor one at that.


Well, unless you count the goings-on in Iraq. How many civilians died at Waco? And how many Iraqi civilians have died each month so far in 2004?

[Evo]

Well, unless you count the goings-on in Iraq. How many civilians died at Waco? And how many Iraqi civilians have died each month so far in 2004?It had to be domestic, so he's at zero.

[Oyéah]

Be sure, I would love to run across blatant magic. But, really the world, just as it is, is pure magic. I have a healthy respect for the progress of time and time's magnificent evolution. The thing about Titor's sad prophecies, is that there are so many better daydreams, about the fate of our world.

[phoenixthoth]

a message to "time travelers" or parallel universe travelers:

it's 10:00PM PST (GMT-7) now on July 17th,2004.

at 10:15PM, meet me at the corner of choctaw ct. and camanche rd. in camanche villiage (or ione according to the post office). be discreet. edit: oh yeah, that is in california. duh!

you'll know me cuz i'll (1) be the only guy around and (2) i'll be wearing a blue shirt and i'll answer to the name phoenix.

as for the rest of you, i'll let you know if anything happens if i'm still in this time zone. :surprise:

cheers

[Zantra]

a message to "time travelers" or parallel universe travelers:

it's 10:00PM PST (GMT-7) now on July 17th,2004.

at 10:15PM, meet me at the corner of choctaw ct. and camanche rd. in camanche villiage (or ione according to the post office). be discreet. edit: oh yeah, that is in california. duh!

you'll know me cuz i'll (1) be the only guy around and (2) i'll be wearing a blue shirt and i'll answer to the name phoenix.

as for the rest of you, i'll let you know if anything happens if i'm still in this time zone. :surprise:

cheers


well?

Oh hey Ivan.. long time no talk.

[phoenixthoth]

i wasn't going to post anything at first because i might just come off as crazy.

first of all, there were no flying spaceships or people materializing out of thin air.

the assumption of that method is that the place where i'm recording my little time-capsule for later discovery by travelers will stand the test of time until time travel or parallel universe travel is invented. either that or that there are those who are already keeping tabs. and of course the underlying assumption for it to work is that travel is possible at all. oh yeah, and that they'd waste all that energy just to visit lil ol me.

what happened at 10:15pm was all in my head and very well could have been self-induced. it also could have been induced by another being (ie a traveler); there's simply no way for me to be sure.

there was some light outside from neighbors' houses, enough to see if there were people walking around. i stared at the reflector from a telephone poll and everything went dim/out at 10:15. it wasn't, as far as i know, the lights going dim, it was my vision winking out.

accompanying this vision disturbance was a significant altered state of consciousness without any drugs. it felt like LSD and could very well have been just a flashback. a flashback at exactly 10:15.

i sometimes do auto-writing, writing without my consious self being involved. i went inside at about 10:20 and wrote down something to the effect of "you are not ready."

At this time we will tell you that you are not ready to see “tiem [sic]travelers.”

and whoever wrote that, probably just my true self or deeper self or subconscious, is prolly right; if i did see a giant klingon spaceship de-cloak after just having been around the sun at warp 10+, i would have been scared. :surprise:

[Ivan Seeking]

One's imagination is a powerful thing.

[Overdose]

i wasn't going to post anything at first because i might just come off as crazy.

first of all, there were no flying spaceships or people materializing out of thin air.

the assumption of that method is that the place where i'm recording my little time-capsule for later discovery by travelers will stand the test of time until time travel or parallel universe travel is invented. either that or that there are those who are already keeping tabs. and of course the underlying assumption for it to work is that travel is possible at all. oh yeah, and that they'd waste all that energy just to visit lil ol me.

what happened at 10:15pm was all in my head and very well could have been self-induced. it also could have been induced by another being (ie a traveler); there's simply no way for me to be sure.

there was some light outside from neighbors' houses, enough to see if there were people walking around. i stared at the reflector from a telephone poll and everything went dim/out at 10:15. it wasn't, as far as i know, the lights going dim, it was my vision winking out.

accompanying this vision disturbance was a significant altered state of consciousness without any drugs. it felt like LSD and could very well have been just a flashback. a flashback at exactly 10:15.

i sometimes do auto-writing, writing without my consious self being involved. i went inside at about 10:20 and wrote down something to the effect of "you are not ready."



and whoever wrote that, probably just my true self or deeper self or subconscious, is prolly right; if i did see a giant klingon spaceship de-cloak after just having been around the sun at warp 10+, i would have been scared. :surprise:
I remember reading something someone posted here a while ago with a link to a webpage about extra-dimensional beings who were all ready here, had ships in orbit etc but most wouldnt see; as we arnt ready to see them.
Sounds very similar.

[megashawn]

Oyeah, your not trying to start another "Humans have not left earth, they are not on mars" conspiracy are you?

[Atrayo]

Hi All,

I've just spent the last couple of hours reading all 10 pages of this thread. (had time to kill) Also, a couple of months ago i was introduced to this John Titor accounts which have been very thought provoking to say the least. Myself i'm on the fence on whether this is a: prankster, delusional, or the real mccoy. However his commentry on society and the human psyche have made him an Internet urban legend to say the least. At least for these 3 years leading up to the end of 2004 into 2005.

The entrance to a time machine is place in the corner pocket with the exit from the machine at the side pocket. Keeping in mind the core problem with the grandfather paradox, a billiard ball is placed at the corner most distant from the time machine's entrance. The ball is hit in a straight line so that it enters the time machine, passes through, and emerges from the side pocket a few moments ealier; just in time to hit itself thus preventing its entry into the machine - i.e. into the corner pocket. Since if the ball never went into the corner it can't emerge from the side pocket to deflect its own path, the essence of the grandfather paradox is duplicated. It turns out that the ball can be made to interfere with itself but not sufficiently so as to cause the ball to miss the corner pocket. In other words, the path can be deflected but not enough to create a paradox. Something within this thought experiment implicitly prevents a genuine paradox from ever occurring. ---Ivan Seeking.

That billard table experiement was rigged, since it was based on a rentangular right angled billard table. Where in mother nature have you seen right angles at work? (lest for humanity) Perhaps try the same experiment on a billard table that is round, which those do exist. :tongue2:

Here is a mistake Titor made that has already been disproved.

"13. We don't know what's on Mars yet."

I guess he didn't know about the Mars rovers that were due to land on Mars in 2004. ---Evo.

Well John Titor does mention that alot of the technology (information) of his day was lost post the nuclear strike. Reminds me of the anime program "Trigun" with all that pre-cursor technology strewn about and not knowing how to use it fully.

Also his claim that Russia will nuke China and the US is extremely hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that Russia and its citizens are willing to commit suicide. Russia funding a war? LOL That country's economy has been in the toilet for years, what will they arm their soldiers with sticks? Terrorism is a much more serious threat to the US and other nations than Russia. ---Graveneworld.

Well during the cold war there have been many tales of being on the brink of a nuclear war. More recently i heard of this one either via the history channel or discovery science channel. That in 1995 then President (Primer) Yelstin of Russia was on the verge of launching a first strike at the USA.

The reason being was they detected a lone missile that they suspected was targeted at Moscow. Yelstin had his version of the "football" (launch codes etc..) in hand. The culprit was some Noreweign scientists had fired a missile with an experiemental payload of atmospheric gear. Which Yelstin was at his 2 minute window to make the decision to strike us, which by his "raw nerve" he watched all this unfold and watch the missile splash into the ocean.

So basically there may be countless tales like this during the cold war, but we just don't know about it. Also, the black market has possibly so many rogue nukes from Russia that it's plausible. Much like that movie with Ben Affleck and Morgan Freeman with a rogue nuke being set off in the US. Thinking it was the Russians launching a first strike at the president visit in a sporting arena.

Who's to say that a old communist guard of disgruntled Russian military that went rogue, doesn't launch something at the USA. Yes, it's all very far-fetched and hopefully non-sense, but the chess pieces are on the board. It just takes a chain of events to put them into motion.

[MadIce]

Below you'll find some reconstructions of the original threads in which John Titor/TimeTravel_0 appeared.

Time Travel Paradoxes! (http://timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=547)
Parallel Universe (http://timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=550)
Topics Limited to 11 Pages? (http://timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=549)
I am from 2036 (http://timetravelportal.com/viewtopic.php?t=541)

[xild]

I was a moderator at the MKaku website and I can assure you that we were not uptight there. We often discussed such ideas as time travel. We had a theoretical physics section as well as others that dealt with such things. Heck, we even had a Science Fiction section, just for fun.

MKaku is a big fan of science fiction and enjoys discussing ideas now matter how rediculous they might seem. Dr. Kaku was on "Unscreweed" for crying out loud.

No, we were not an uptight group of people.

Then was was she banned?

[xild]

i tried registering on that site but my email has already been banned so that i cannot. interesting.

i can't even begin to speculate on why that is; i feel it must be an error.

i'm trying to contact john for myself for i have my own questions. one of them is this: why would someone pretend to be a time traveler from the future, theoretically speaking; what would they have to gain?

on the site, the physicist (if i'm not mistaken) reported that john wishes as few contacts as possible (for his own reasons). but he apparenly will spend time with a physicist. why, i ask? why the need for validation from relatively primative scientists? how on earth could sufficiently advanced science be explained to those of a limited viewpoint? how would we explain superstring theory to the anceint egyptians? they wouldn't believe us and call us frauds. it sounds to me as if this john character is in his own self-reinforcing delusional world if he isn't a bona fide time traveler. he can always excuse himself by suggesting that current science just can't understand his advanced science. in fact, anyone with sufficient background in science fiction knows that if you just go through a portal created by chronaton particles, you can travel to any point in time instantaneously and always argue that it's just that the chronoton hasn't been discovered yet because it isn't sought for. what a problem...

may your journey be graceful,
phoenix
Phoenix, why are they banning you from so many sites on time travel?

If you want I will send you the text of the link you can't see, or I will simply post it in here. Let me know.

[xild]

I just finished reading the whole thing- I haven't read the debunking websites yet, but I'm assuming he hasn't been debunked yet as this is still a topic of discussion.

If it is bunk, a lot of time and effort went into this, and this guy is no dummy- he would have had to do quite a bit of physics research to pull this off.

One thing that stuck out to me, was that he mentioned the civil war resulting from loss of civil rights- people were being invaded and having thier houses searched by the government. This correlates with the increased security resulting from 9/11. It is being scaled back, however it would be very easy to imagine it cascading out of control, were the US to suffer another terrorist attack. Sacrifice of personal liberties to ensure public security- he made reference to this belief in regards to the civil war. However I find it incredulous that he didn't even make a faint reference to the 9/11 incident. He seemed to favor March 21st as a significant date- but no year, so that could be 2004, 2008, or even 2015. Could he pull it off if he had sufficient time, means, and motivation? No doubt he could do the phyics reseach- the pictures would have required him to actually build a replica. I remain a skeptic as always, but here's my proposition.

If he's wrong-*shrug* another wacko hits the dust. But if he's actually a time traveller-god help us all. And he was right- no one will take him seriously- at least not until 2004 if events escalate. With a bleak future like that, I'm sure we'd all rather think he's a babbling idiot.

EDIT: There's a very quick current way to verfiy everything he's saying. Because according to him, in 2001 or 2002 CERN accidently created a microsingularity. His explanation is that by bombarding a microsingularity smaller than the size of an electron, WITH electrons you broaden the event horizon, and thus the gravitational field. He forthermore says that by overlapping the fields from 2 microsingularities you can travel through time. I believe his says this is discovered through a super-collider at CERN, but that the supercollider isn't completed until 2007-conflicting story, but I may have the details mixed up.

Anyone familiar with a discovery of a microsingularity at CERN?

As an aside, I emailed this pamela girl inviting her to comment in this post about the validity(or her view of) his authenticity. We'll see if she stops in[;)]

the original website was promoted last night on Coast to Coast AM.

I am fascinated with this person. I would love to meet him and travel with him even. His theories sound credible to me.

He was apparently right about CERN, that has been validated as has...well, check the website listed for the things he alluded to which have come true.

any of us can see that if there is a question about several states in this upcoming election that there very well could be the start of a civil war in this country. Then again, John may have been projecting. Based upon his story, and simple gut instincts. I happen to anxiously await the election.

He seems sincere, no?

[xild]

Yes that truly would be a tragedy, but who says those writers don't have a sick sense of humor?[;)].

As far as why they would go back. Well don't you think if you had a chance to go back to the time of christ and witness it firsthand, it's a lot more interesting than just reading the bible? If indeed time travel does exist, they are no doubt keeping a low profile. One thing we can learn from John Titor was his exploitation of the common perception. Even if you DID claim to be a time traveller, and were genuine. And short of taking people for a ride, who's going to believe you? No without making some accurate near-future predictions that come true. Now if he'd even HINTED at 9-11, he'd have made a believer out of me. But he didn't drop so much as a hint before he left- Stating all these rules of non-intervention etc, etc. In psychological circles this is known as a self-reinforcing delusion. Indeed he made absolutely no predictions prior to leaving, except those far enough in the future that he wouldn't be held accountable when they didn't come true. John titor isn't a real name- as he himself pointed out- TIme Travel OR. if he was truly a historic observer, he could have interacted without even revealing himself and accomplished the same goal. If he were adhering to those self imposed "TT rules" he supposedly followed, he wouldn't have mentioned it. It's simply narcissism. He needed to feed his ego, and he suceeeded. This is some wacko. I'm pretty well satisfied of it.

I'm not agreeing with Titor or disagreeing, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment...

When he says he was in our time because he was a history buff, and not a historian, because education in his world would not allow one to become an expert. He had an interest in it.

Why would he bother to start posting on the Internet, for ego purposes? How about this. He has a double of himself in this worldline, who is now supposedly a toddler. Wouldn't it be interesting for that child, as he was growing up, to see, and address, and allow us to follow his progress, as he the toddler, was growing up. Surely John the man left word with his beloved family as to where they could find and track his story on the net.

Let's see in time if the "Titor" in this worldline comes into play at sometime when he is able to write to us.

Why wouldn't he have mentioned time travel rules? I don't see that as being consequential at all. He mentioned it. So what?

The guy didn't seem to care if we believe him or not. If he was feeding his ego and that was his intent, we know these type of people cannot simply disappear and stay out of the story after only a few months participation. In fact, I personally don't have experience with an internet persona such as his. He refrained from arguments, only suggesting we remember the red sea parting...cryptic.

And, if he had hinted of Sept 11, that may have caused some people to warn others from going to work that day. Among his rules were not to discuss these types of things.

Okay, enough for now.

[notal33t]

I'm not agreeing with Titor or disagreeing, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment...

When he says he was in our time because he was a history buff, and not a historian, because education in his world would not allow one to become an expert. He had an interest in it.

Why would he bother to start posting on the Internet, for ego purposes? How about this. He has a double of himself in this worldline, who is now supposedly a toddler. Wouldn't it be interesting for that child, as he was growing up, to see, and address, and allow us to follow his progress, as he the toddler, was growing up. Surely John the man left word with his beloved family as to where they could find and track his story on the net.

Let's see in time if the "Titor" in this worldline comes into play at sometime when he is able to write to us.

Why wouldn't he have mentioned time travel rules? I don't see that as being consequential at all. He mentioned it. So what?

The guy didn't seem to care if we believe him or not. If he was feeding his ego and that was his intent, we know these type of people cannot simply disappear and stay out of the story after only a few months participation. In fact, I personally don't have experience with an internet persona such as his. He refrained from arguments, only suggesting we remember the red sea parting...cryptic.

And, if he had hinted of Sept 11, that may have caused some people to warn others from going to work that day. Among his rules were not to discuss these types of things.

Okay, enough for now.
---------------------
An honest to BOG Time traveler!!! WOW!!!
I would LOVE to be in his shoes for ONE trip...
I'd pick a day when a super lotto was historically known not to have been won. Nothing trivial mind you, just one of those $200,000,000 ones, and buy a ticket for it with the historically known winning numbers. It comes to mind, as to why the heck Titor, didn't do just that!
Oh well the temporal prime directive must have gotten in the way.... OOOPS there goes the alternate timeline theory... After all if a temporal paradox is impossible under "alternate timeline cosmology". WHY NOT?
Easy street how sweet it is!

[ExecNight]

Ok i am new to this John Titor story..

With a glimpse at the situation i realized that this story totally reminded me the movie K-Pax..


The character in the movie (Kevin Spacey) and John's characteristics match very well..Their answering style to questions are the same..

By the way K-Pax is based on the 1995 Gene Brewer novel of the same name..and the movie is released 10/26/2001..


You can think i am insane but if you ask me this was just for the movie..Or might very well be Kevin Spacey or someone writing his conversations work just to be seen more real and we know actors sometimes do such things to be seen very very real with their characters..

Now John Titor appeared in Nov 2000 dissapeared in March 2001..Can someone find out when the movie started being shot cuz i couldn't in my too little free time..If it matches then i think its too interesting to be just a coinsidence......

[ExecNight]

My claims are getting stronger..Tho i am not sure it was the director or Mr.Spacey anymore but look at this information...



Although the film is set in New York, only exteriors were shot there. "We shot some in New York and a lot of it here (in Los Angeles)," Gordon said. "Basically, it's an L.A.-based shoot. It was the nicest film (during production). I think all of us had an absolutely great time. We had no problems. I hate to say this, but we really didn't. We had a wonderful shoot. Everybody got along just unbelievably well. We started shooting on Nov. 13, 2000 and we finished on Mar. 3, 2001. I think we shot a total of about three weeks in New York."

The paragraph taken from http://www.drivingmrspacey.com/K-PAXArticles.htm go to the bottom of the page and its the fourth paragraph when you go up...


November 13 2000 they began shooting K-Pax...March 3 2001 they finished shooting..

Again what a great coinsidence? hehe


EDIT: The site claims some of the info are fact and the rest is just fiction for fun..Hmm the dates are prolly true but well i am gonna search for a better source just to be sure..



EDIT#2: Found something else but just the day they started shooting...


For K-PAX - which is released in the US by Universal - filming began on location in and around New York almost exactly a year ago (on November 13, 2000), with a cast that also includes Alfre Woodard and Mary McCormack.

Source is http://www.preview-online.com/nov_dec2001/feature_articles/kpax/page2.html

Ok i am pretty sure now so i am done for the day..

[Sharayah]

Can I Ask A Physics Question?

[physicsuser]

Time machine could never exist because someone would come back and destroy it before it could be developed?

[Altune]

The theory of the sigularities could not work in a portable unit. Just one of the BH would weigh in the thousands of pounds and would take imense ammounts of power to contain it if possible not to mention two of these bad boys in one box.
Theory sounds cool although I would have to agree a well thought out hoax.

[flexten]

"Time machine could never exist because someone would come back and destroy it before it could be developed?"

No, someone would come back and invent it before it was invented.

Best

[interval]

There is one glaring problem in the John Titor story that I am surprised
no one has caught; among the series of photos John posted is one
captioned (I'm paraphrasing) "This is one of my instructor holding a
laser over the singularity power source", the red beam is clearly
bending. It would require a tremendous gravity well, like that of a
microsingularity, to bend a beam of laser light, indeed. Anyone else
notice something strange about that picture?

[brandon.irwin]

One of the interesting things I found was that Titor predicted that the bovine virus has a 40 year incubation period. I was reading an issua of popular science a few months back, and they found that to be true.

I think we'll know if he's right by the end of this election (civil war is supposed to break out).

[Zantra]

why won't this thread DIE :yuck:

[Evo]

None of his "predictions" have come true so far. It's an obvious hoax.

[bross7]

You could argue that some of the statements involving the wavering of the West towards Isreal and some of the stuff about the economics of the US playing a role are coming true, but it is going to take the first shots to be fired for any of the stuff to be true and the convienient method of giving dates doesn't prove anything.

In the year 2009 you will have a birthday, but only 1, unless you are bad at math.

[Zantra]

he hasn't made any SPECIFIC predections.. that's the key to getting people to believe you.. make vague predictions that give a general timeframe and could be interpreted umpteen different ways, and you're suddenly Nostradamus-- or John Edwards (crossing over fame)

[elkoweb]

they were talking about Mr Titor on coast to coast on friday night. 10/10/04

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, I can always tell by the hit rate here. It threw me the first time.

[Zantra]

We should charge for access just to this thread, and Greg would become independantly wealthy


DIE THREAD!!!! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!! *STABS THREAD REPEATEDLY*

ok the demarol kicked in.. I'm better now :biggrin:

[Zantra]

you know, I was thinking about all the hits we got, and it occurred to me just now that I may have inadvertently posted a link to PF on that time travel website under the Titor thread as an invite to debunk. So anyone who looked up John Titor would see that link. I don't know why I never connected the two.

No need to thank me Greg-allthough a special title would be nice :biggrin:

[bross7]

he hasn't made any SPECIFIC predections.. that's the key to getting people to believe you.. make vague predictions that give a general timeframe and could be interpreted umpteen different ways, and you're suddenly Nostradamus-- or John Edwards (crossing over fame)

It's all coming together John Edwards is actually John Titor running for Vice President where his twin brother John Edwards, the "ghost host", will relay vital information to the American public.

It is a sham in the same way that when 9/11 happened people starting manipulating Nostradamus' quatraines to become blatantly obvious that they were referring to the attacks.

[poolwin2001]

I saw the photos of the 'Instruction manual'.In my opinion this is the most stupid thing.Even now,paper is becoming obsolete and he expects us to believe that even after the invention of TM,we will still be using paper.Where will we get wood to make them?Especially after a nuclear war.

[disunity]

There is one glaring problem in the John Titor story that I am surprised
no one has caught; among the series of photos John posted is one
captioned (I'm paraphrasing) "This is one of my instructor holding a
laser over the singularity power source", the red beam is clearly
bending. It would require a tremendous gravity well, like that of a
microsingularity, to bend a beam of laser light, indeed. Anyone else
notice something strange about that picture?


would you be referring to the fact that the light beam is horribly bent by "gravity", while the man with the cigar is standing a couple feet away, seemingly unaffected?


:surprised


seriously, i had as much fun as anyone with this, but the book being written by his mother is just too damn much.

remember, you're never quite as smart as you think you are, but everyone else is always as dumb as you suspect.

[QuantumTheory]

The theory of the sigularities could not work in a portable unit. Just one of the BH would weigh in the thousands of pounds and would take imense ammounts of power to contain it if possible not to mention two of these bad boys in one box.
Theory sounds cool although I would have to agree a well thought out hoax.


Actually, currently scientist are working on creating quantum computers which work by creating minature black holes.

Look at the latest Scientific American magazine of Oct. 2004.

They compare it with scientific breakthoughs as follows:

1) Our current laptop
2) "The Ultimate Laptop". Which works by maniupulating particles
3) The quantum computer which creates black holes.

It sounds far fetched; I know. But you should read the magazine.

I'd quote something from it but I'm only 16 and do not have a job yet. My parents would not buy it for me while I was at safeway :grumpy:

[scarecrow]

2004 past -- and the only civil unrest I can think of is the presidential election.
2005 is here -- and Israel and Palestine are "almost" making progress towards peace.

Maybe that 2% difference between Titor's worldline and ours makes a HUGE difference in our worldline.......it takes only one outcome to change everything else.

[selfAdjoint]

2004 past -- and the only civil unrest I can think of is the presidential election.

Iraq? Not the war but after. About as much civil unrest as you could imagine. The world is not just the US, you know.

[Ivan Seeking]

I thought we were going to make it past the Coast to Coast Titor show without a single post to this thread. Still, at 100 hits, as opposed to 10,000 per show, I would say that Titor mania is finally dying down. :biggrin:

[check]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo! Someone had to go and bring this thread back from the dead. Urg...
http://www.neowin.net/forum/fun/die_thread_die.jpg

[Evo]

Iraq? Not the war but after. About as much civil unrest as you could imagine. The world is not just the US, you know.The civil unrest Titor predicted was specifically domestic, he said there would be a "Waco like incident every month". Referring to the Waco, TX incident. Boy did he get that WRONG!

[scarecrow]

I did hear about John Titor from the other night's airing of Coast to Coast....and I was led to this forum by the guest Physicist they had on last night.

[Ivan Seeking]

An interesting show - one can get John Titor and Michio Kaku all in one format.

Note that Dr. Kaku was recently here for an online chat.
http://physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=57221

Welcome to PF scarecrow. :smile:

[reaper]

what a load of bollocks.It goes to show how silly people really are.I read the whole link and nobody thought to ask a time traveller,which horse/team/ wins the big event tommorrow! the answer would have been sweet bollocks.Didnt anyone think in order for him to use the internet or post on the forums he had an ISP address.Which here in the UK you pay be credit card or at least bank details.He was here visiting for 4 month,and he thought i know i will open a bank account with my passport dated 2038 yeah really!!! I hope i offered some common sense here to anyone giving him any credibility

[Kakarot]

i thought this was debunked already. on another website i read that they had tracked him down by isp or something and that he admitted to making the whole thing up and that he took the idea from a book or something.

[scarecrow]

I believe his IP address only proved he was indeed in central Florida, where he claimed he was from.

[polyb]

i thought this was debunked already. on another website i read that they had tracked him down by isp or something and that he admitted to making the whole thing up and that he took the idea from a book or something.

After reading through this Titor stuff earlier this summer it seemed to me that there were some uncanny parallels to the book Alas Babylon.

[TheStatutoryApe]

what a load of bollocks.It goes to show how silly people really are.I read the whole link and nobody thought to ask a time traveller,which horse/team/ wins the big event tommorrow! the answer would have been sweet bollocks.Didnt anyone think in order for him to use the internet or post on the forums he had an ISP address.Which here in the UK you pay be credit card or at least bank details.He was here visiting for 4 month,and he thought i know i will open a bank account with my passport dated 2038 yeah really!!! I hope i offered some common sense here to anyone giving him any credibility.
Well not that I'm giving him any credibility but your arguement here isn't very good. It seems you didn't read very closely. He did have people asking him who won what sports game and declined to answer "on moral grounds" and he said that he was staying with his parents in this time.

[oldunion]

i just looked over the site. theres 3 new cases of mad cow, when a month ago they said cases were dwindling in europe. Also the information on china is interesting.

[Memphis213]

what a load of bollocks.It goes to show how silly people really are.I read the whole link and nobody thought to ask a time traveller,which horse/team/ wins the big event tommorrow! the answer would have been sweet bollocks.Didnt anyone think in order for him to use the internet or post on the forums he had an ISP address.Which here in the UK you pay be credit card or at least bank details.He was here visiting for 4 month,and he thought i know i will open a bank account with my passport dated 2038 yeah really!!! I hope i offered some common sense here to anyone giving him any credibility

Honestly, I think the only person who needs any common sense is yourself here sir...

There are a number of other options of connecting to the internet, public libraries, parents accounts, colleges, etc. etc. the list goes on.

Also, if you would have really "read the whole link" you would have known why he didn't give up information that could be used to gamble, etc.

I am not giving him credibility, but you are surely not taking anything away with your comments but your own personal dignity....Coming on this forum and calling everyone a bollock and speaking of how silly everyone is, while at the same time acting in the way you are describing doesn't help form a convincing arguement.

You are free to disagree and want to debunk this, just as anyone else does. But at least think longer before you start ranting and raving.

[Zantra]

/bump

Well here we are about midway through 05 and nary a "waco type incident" in sight. Although things like Bush and the Patriot act were by no means positive signs I'm going to go ahead and give this the big thumbs down and call it an entertaining story :tongue2:

[Ivan Seeking]

/bump

Well here we are about midway through 05 and nary a "waco type incident" in sight. Although things like Bush and the Patriot act were by no means positive signs I'm going to go ahead and give this the big thumbs down and call it an entertaining story :tongue2:

And with that, Zantra, you get the last word on John Titor.