How old are you? [Archive]

Another God

Mar30-03, 08:20 AM

21. And this is as 'old' as I want to get too. I fear that by the time I figure out how to make my body maintain its age, I will already be too old, and so then I will need to find a way to make my body rejuvenate itself [:(]

Mentate and Bubonic, I too have spent my life marvelling at the stupidity of those old 'wise' people who have been so kind as to show me all the ways in which I will never allow myself to be.

I recall being around 15, and being frustrated at not being able to get into a pub or something like that, because I wasn't of a numerical designation that suited the law. The fact that I didn't want to drink alcohol nor smoke cigarettes, (and still don't) and the fact that I am most likely much more mature and intelligent than 90% of the people in the bar didn't mean anything.

(excuse the haughty nature of that paragraph, but its how I felt at the time, and still how i feel. I don't have much respect for people who actually go and hang out in bars drinking and smoking their lives away. I don't deny their right to do it, nor the fact that it is their own form of pleasure, while mine is something completely different, and that in its own right is OK...i still don't like it.)
(this probably has a lot to do with having grown up in a family where several family members and their friends are pretty much useless drunks 90% of the time. You grow up with that, and see if alcohol looks like a lot of fun to u.)

Kerrie

Mar30-03, 11:17 AM

at least we have members here appreciating their youth[;)]

seriously, i think if continue to learn and understand, "getting older" is not much of a concern...

RuroumiKenshin

Mar30-03, 05:05 PM

Am I the youngest one here again!!?? Cool!

I'm still 13...I'll be 14 in a "few months" (7 months to go)

Nicool003

Mar30-03, 07:04 PM

Thank you, kyleb. I have spent my entire life (seriously, this was one of my first conscious thoughts) trying to prove that the fact that someone was older didn't make them smarter. I have also learned that it doesn't make them wiser (no matter what anyone says), because wisdom = applied knowledge; so age doesn't bring wisdom, it just brings more chances to develop wisdom.

Doesn't every teenager want to prove that age doesn't matter? It would be quite easy to prove... if anyone would listen to us"kids" long enough to see our point! There is that old saying wisdom comes with age. And I think that is partly true. But there is a different between knowledge and wisdom and no one ever said we don't have more knowledge bwahahaha [:D]

Anyways I agree with you too if you notice I said i PARTLY believe that saying just because wisdom can also be things you have experienced in your life and since they have lived longer... you know

Bubonic Plague

Mar30-03, 09:11 PM

at least we have members here appreciating their youth

Whats there to appreciate? Childhood is a totalitarian regime, all we ever do is get ordered around by "wise" adults.

I'd like to correct the adage "Wisdom comes with age", instead it should be "Ego comes with age".

spacemanspiff

Mar30-03, 11:16 PM

22. that's as old as i need to be. it's all down hill from here [;)]

Galaphile

Mar31-03, 04:06 AM

31 and smack in the middle of the midlife panic.

sir-pinski

Mar31-03, 04:30 AM

24 and not particularly bothered by it. Life is far too short to be worried about how old you are - it's better to just live I think. Besides hopefully nano-tech and advanced genetic engineering will come along soon and help us all out :)

Mr. Robin Parsons

Mar31-03, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Bubonic Plague, and Mentat

15 and hating it. I just can't wait to grow old and tell adults to "Shut the **** up" without being told that i'm a little kid and should be respectful or being asked what my school is so they can complain about my obvious distaste for their "helpful advices on my moral code, etc".

I agree (except for the part about telling them to "shut the **** up"). As I see it, a wise person would realize that age doesn't bring wisdom, but there are so few wise people.

Is it possible that what you are really missing is that you actually are intimidating to some adults? And that these kinds of reactions from them, are, simply put, their intellectual self-defence mechanisms? That they scurry back into their own safe intellectual environment by plying the ¡°time dependencies of learning¡± against you, just so they can hold onto their own sense of intellectual self worth, in your presence?

Is that, possibly, the answer you need to see/know?

Mentat

Mar31-03, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by RageSk8
18

Another prime example, of how older people do not have a monopoly on wisdom.

Mentat

Mar31-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by MajinVegeta
Am I the youngest one here again!!?? Cool!

I'm still 13...I'll be 14 in a "few months" (7 months to go)

And few older ones have such an inquisitive mind, Majin.

This is an important point as well. You see, I said that age affords one more opportunities to learn; however, while this is still true, there some younger people (like MajinVegeta) who have such a zeal for learning, that they can easily make up for their lack of "experience".

Mentat

Mar31-03, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Nicool003
Doesn't every teenager want to prove that age doesn't matter? It would be quite easy to prove... if anyone would listen to us"kids" long enough to see our point! There is that old saying wisdom comes with age. And I think that is partly true. But there is a different between knowledge and wisdom and no one ever said we don't have more knowledge bwahahaha [:D]

Anyways I agree with you too if you notice I said i PARTLY believe that saying just because wisdom can also be things you have experienced in your life and since they have lived longer... you know

So how old are you, Nicool?

Another God

Mar31-03, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
And few older ones have such an inquisitive mind, Majin.

This is an important point as well. You see, I said that age affords one more opportunities to learn; however, while this is still true, there some younger people (like MajinVegeta) who have such a zeal for learning, that they can easily make up for their lack of "experience".
I have always been curious, but this zeal for learning has only really been a recent thing for me. I wish I did this sort of stuff (Reading as much as I can, PF, things like that) when I was 13, 14 etc. If i had started back then, then Jeeze...what would I know now.

Majin, Mentat...I gotta stay in contact with you two =) As you get older, you will find that you are leaps ahead of everyone else when you get to uni. Not necessarily top marks getters (though probably), but simply knowledgeable. You will be able to think for yourselves, you will have insights, and novel ideas.... It'd be great to start out at uni like that. I've learnt it in my time here, and am only just this year really able to apply it...

Kerrie

Mar31-03, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Bubonic Plague
Whats there to appreciate? Childhood is a totalitarian regime, all we ever do is get ordered around by "wise" adults.

I'd like to correct the adage "Wisdom comes with age", instead it should be "Ego comes with age".

i think you have quite an ego for whatever age you are for claiming that those who get older get a bigger ego...i suspect you are still a child yourself for believing this about childhood and adulthood, if you are an adult stating this, then i suspect you to be just plain ignorant...

Bubonic Plague

Apr1-03, 07:08 AM

i think you have quite an ego for whatever age you are for claiming that those who get older get a bigger ego

I apologize for collateral damage and if i had been too harsh and crude with my words. Sorry.

i suspect you are still a child yourself for believing this about childhood and adulthood

Pherhaps you went through a different childhood from mine, so you disagree with my views, but ultimately this is what i think childhood is, relative to my experiences. My views will no doubt change with time. But these are the views i currently hold.

J-Man

Apr1-03, 01:23 PM

I'm 33, and unlike many of you, I hope to get much older. I think it beats the only other alternative.

-----

I really wish all the little kiddies (under 25) would show some respect. They really must try to be good little kids; it's their duty. I mean, really, what do they want, us to earn their respect? I didn't make all those mistakes for my own benefit, I made them so that I could tell you what to do and what not to do! Really!
April fool...

Mentat

Apr1-03, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Another God
I have always been curious, but this zeal for learning has only really been a recent thing for me. I wish I did this sort of stuff (Reading as much as I can, PF, things like that) when I was 13, 14 etc. If i had started back then, then Jeeze...what would I know now.

Majin, Mentat...I gotta stay in contact with you two =) As you get older, you will find that you are leaps ahead of everyone else when you get to uni. Not necessarily top marks getters (though probably), but simply knowledgeable. You will be able to think for yourselves, you will have insights, and novel ideas.... It'd be great to start out at uni like that. I've learnt it in my time here, and am only just this year really able to apply it...

I thank you. I'm not sure that I'm going to college/uni., but if you think I'd do well (having actually been there, yourself) I might consider it.

Alias

Apr1-03, 05:58 PM

38

Mentat, do what ever you must to get through college. I never finished. While I have about 150 credit hours in varying disciplines, I've still have no degree.

Of course, if you want to skip that whole college thing, you can come live with me in the trailer park.

Let see, go to college, get a well paying job, live in a nice house, or live with Alias in the trailer park. Hmmmm. Tough decision.[;)]

Psyber freek

Apr1-03, 08:01 PM

I'm 14, and its kind anoying. Too many mood swings.

Sourire

Apr1-03, 09:46 PM

I have to agree with J Man..I too am 33(I couln't remember! Man that is bad!) and I am enjoying every second of it! I can't wait to see what life is going to be like in 5 years!!!!! It will be awesome I'm sure!!!

[6)]

MacTech

Apr1-03, 09:59 PM

On many forums i am 15 :) like this one, in my user profile, but really i am 19, tho my birthday is not march 18 either :)

mrmason

Apr2-03, 07:37 AM

Considering

Apr2-03, 09:09 AM

I'm 20.

I can remember my younger days when I considered most adults rather lacking in the area of common sense, just by observing their actions in certain situations.

Now that I'm older, I still think the same thing. However, I've come to a realization that such people DO deserve respect...until they prove to me otherwise. Kinda like benefit of the doubt.

The older a person is has little to do with their knowledge or lack thereof. But the highly touted "wisdom" is a tangible, real thing, and the only way to gain in wisdom is to live life and learn from experience. Knowledge can be gained in my ways and at varying speeds. But wisdom comes almost exclusively from life experience.

My two cents ;)

Considering

Paradox

Apr2-03, 10:04 AM

I'm physically 19. Mentally, I'd say around 5. [6)]

Mentat

Apr2-03, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by MacTech
On many forums i am 15 :) like this one, in my user profile, but really i am 19, tho my birthday is not march 18 either :)

So, why don't you register as your actual age?

longbusy

Apr2-03, 04:46 PM

19 years 133 days + some unassorted seconds...

iansmith

Apr2-03, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Considering
I'm 20.

I can remember my younger days when I considered most adults rather lacking in the area of common sense, just by observing their actions in certain situations.

Now that I'm older, I still think the same thing. However, I've come to a realization that such people DO deserve respect...until they prove to me otherwise. Kinda like benefit of the doubt.

The older a person is has little to do with their knowledge or lack thereof. But the highly touted "wisdom" is a tangible, real thing, and the only way to gain in wisdom is to live life and learn from experience. Knowledge can be gained in my ways and at varying speeds. But wisdom comes almost exclusively from life experience.

My two cents ;)

Considering

I agree with that. I felt the same way when I was a teenager. Now I'm 23 and life experience has bring me more wisdom.

Pauly Man

Apr2-03, 06:55 PM

I am 21.

It's great to see so many young highly intelligent people on at these forums.

Raavin

Apr3-03, 09:40 PM

At 33 (well on April 8th) I would hope that I have gained some wisdom. I thought I was wise at 15. That's why I left school and went to work. That's why I never did any homework and didn't absorb any of the Mathematics that teachers tried to teach. I knew what was important. Now I'm not so sure what's important. I know I have regrets about decisions I made but as the saying goes, the more you know, the more you don't know. I'm a youth worker by trade and if I was going to be completely honest, a damn fine one. Why, because I know I don't know everything. Others in my field 'know' they have wisdom. I hope when I talk to younger people and use examples about my own experiences, or give advice, that they can take something from it. Regardless of what you think now, you will feel the same way. You may have ideas about how your future will unfold and the person that you will be, but life doesn't work like that. Relationships will be made and broken, you will hurt people and they will hurt you. You will make mistakes that haunt you when you go to sleep and you will have restless nights, abuzz with the pleasures that the day brought you. You will plan how you raise your children then, when it happens, throw all the ideas out the window. You will have emotions that you think will never end and later they will seem like a fleeting moment. Don't close yourself off to the idea that you are not different and possibly more wise with every passing day. I wouldn't wish that for you. When I see a 13 year old and a 40 year old who are emotional peers I don't see a 13 year old with the wisdom of a 40 year old, I see a 40 year old with the wisdom of a 13 year old. You could read 10 text books a day for ten years and you couldn't learn about yourself what you could learn by living for one.

There are many here that at a very early age, showing great intelligence. Far more than I can say I have. Intelligence is applied book learning. Wisdom is applied life learning. There are no shortcuts to either. I've still got a ways to go with both.

Raavin [:))]

Linda

Apr4-03, 12:06 AM

Well said Raavin. (I'm 42 by the way)

Raavin

Apr4-03, 01:01 AM

[;)]

RuroumiKenshin

Apr4-03, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Another God
I have always been curious, but this zeal for learning has only really been a recent thing for me. I wish I did this sort of stuff (Reading as much as I can, PF, things like that) when I was 13, 14 etc. If i had started back then, then Jeeze...what would I know now.

Majin, Mentat...I gotta stay in contact with you two =) As you get older, you will find that you are leaps ahead of everyone else when you get to uni. Not necessarily top marks getters (though probably), but simply knowledgeable. You will be able to think for yourselves, you will have insights, and novel ideas.... It'd be great to start out at uni like that. I've learnt it in my time here, and am only just this year really able to apply it...

I always get top marks. And I'm usually teacher's pet (i'm trying not to, but I am one in my computer and math classes). Anyway, I want to go for a double PhD in physics and engineering (not sure what kind, but what do you think sounds most challenging, computer or electrical?). I'll teach part time and get a job (sooner or later) at the Institute For Advanced Study in New Jersey(Mietner, Einstein, Planck worked there!). And I have other plans, but I don't want to bore anyone with them....

RuroumiKenshin

Apr4-03, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Psyber freek
I'm 14, and its kind anoying. Too many mood swings.

you know, I actually enjoy these mood swings. It makes me feel like a normal, cool teen. But my mood swings are usually mild (unless I get grounded from pfs like last week for spending 4 hours here [:((] ).

Mr. Robin Parsons

Apr4-03, 04:31 PM

Origianlly stated by Raavin

When I see a 13 year old and a 40 year old who are emotional peers I don't see a 13 year old with the wisdom of a 40 year old, I see a 40 year old with the wisdom of a 13 year old. You could read 10 text books a day for ten years and you couldn't learn about yourself what you could learn by living for one.

(Bows, in silent respect)

Psyber freek

Apr4-03, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by MajinVegeta
you know, I actually enjoy these mood swings. It makes me feel like a normal, cool teen. But my mood swings are usually mild (unless I get grounded from pfs like last week for spending 4 hours here [:((] ).

Most of the time I don't enjoy mood swings. One minute I'm my normal self, then after a little while I'm extremely happy for some reason, and then after another 10 minutes, I'm down in the dumps.

Baikonur

Apr5-03, 12:17 PM

By the way, an online test said that my mental age is 32!!! Argh!! I'm an old man!! I'm mentally almost mummyfied!!! :DDDDD

Sourire

Apr5-03, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Baikonur
By the way, an online test said that my mental age is 32!!! Argh!! I'm an old man!! I'm mentally almost mummyfied!!! :DDDDD

But some of us mummyfied people are pretty darn smart!!!!!!!

[:D]

Mentat

Jun1-03, 04:52 PM

There are still a few that haven't responded, so I just figured I'd give them the chance to (by putting this back on the first page).

Jun1-03, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
There are still a few that haven't responded, so I just figured I'd give them the chance to (by putting this back on the first page).

Im 28 this month and 29 in Aug. I feel like i am 21 though, the greatest age to be ever. old enough to drink, chase older women and VOTE! Good thread [:))]
Thanks!
Dx [;)]

Ivan Seeking

Jun1-03, 08:22 PM

I am approaching 30 in some numbering system but I forget which one.[:D]

I am approaching 30 in some numbering system but I forget which one...did I say that?

Mentat

Jun1-03, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Dx
Im 28 this month and 29 in Aug. I feel like i am 21 though, the greatest age to be ever. old enough to drink, chase older women and VOTE! Good thread [:))]
Thanks!
Dx [;)]

LOL

Thanks, btw.

maximus

Jun2-03, 12:08 AM

...15... (and happily awaiting summer) [:D] [:D]

maximus

Jun2-03, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
Thank you, kyleb. I have spent my entire life (seriously, this was one of my first conscious thoughts) trying to prove that the fact that someone was older didn't make them smarter. I have also learned that it doesn't make them wiser (no matter what anyone says), because wisdom = applied knowledge; so age doesn't bring wisdom, it just brings more chances to develop wisdom.

amen, mentat! i've always felt that the only difference between the adult and the child is a higher vocabulary to better translate the feelings/thoughts they are having. (for some even the vocabulary doesn't apply. [;)]

Integral

Jun2-03, 12:56 PM

I will be 35(hex) this month.

Les Sleeth

Jun2-03, 03:13 PM

I turned 56 in March, but I haven't noticed aging that much.

Just a couple of comments on what the younger folks have said here about age. I agree that being older doesn't necessarily mean wiser, but I believe "young" definitely means not wise. I think that because to me wisdom is the result of experience combined with having aged with a desire to learn and grow as a human being.

A young person can certainly be more intelligent and dedicated to learning/growing than an adult; if fact, children generally are when they have adequate opportunities, and are unspoiled by dictatorial, abusive, doting or inattentive parents. But the one thing they cannot possibly do without aging is acquire broad life experiences; and without experience, no wisdom. It's all theory for them, and kids are always full of theories about how much better they are going to do it than the adults are now doing it. That's just the bravado of a generation safely fed and housed, with plenty of time to complain about that for which they aren't yet responsible.

Yet it is also true that aging tends to set people in their ways and make them opinionated, which in turn results in not wanting to learn much. I think much of this is from people falling victim to, and surrendering to, conditioning. There's another major force kids haven't had to survive; it is not a breeze to spend thirty or forty years subject to the powers that be and not lose at least part of one's consciousness to conditioning. It's easy for you (kids) to talk big now, but let's see how you do over the long haul (I was part of the hippie generation, and boy did we talk big).

While aging may petrify many adult minds, it isn't true for everyone. Those adults who fight off conditioning, and who energetically pursue knowledge, goodness, service to humanity, personal growth, and maybe even Truth, may just achieve a bit of wisdom.

Mentat

Jun3-03, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by maximus
amen, mentat! i've always felt that the only difference between the adult and the child is a higher vocabulary to better translate the feelings/thoughts they are having. (for some even the vocabulary doesn't apply. [;)]

Amen to that last part, as I've - on many occasions - lost the most patronizing of adults in my sesquipedalianistic speech ("sesquipedalianism" is the use of big words, btw).

Mentat

Jun3-03, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Just a couple of comments on what the younger folks have said here about age. I agree that being older doesn't necessarily mean wiser, but I believe "young" definitely means not wise.

Ouch. You mean to say you haven't found a bit of wisdom in anything I've every posted?

I think that because to me wisdom is the result of experience combined with having aged with a desire to learn and grow as a human being.

However, if one's desire to learn and grow as a human being far outweighs that of the one who has had more time to do so, would not the first one be wiser?

A young person can certainly be more intelligent and dedicated to learning/growing than an adult; if fact, children generally are when they have adequate opportunities, and are unspoiled by dictatorial, abusive, doting or inattentive parents. But the one thing they cannot possibly do without aging is acquire broad life experiences; and without experience, no wisdom.

I disagree. As I've said before, a good (though not perfect) definition of "wisdom" is "applied knowledge/understanding". This means that an older person may have had more time to aquire "wisdom", but a younger person may have actually taken the opportunity, while the older one may have missed it.

So kids, how about a little respect just in case the relic you want to lecture might be one of those antique few who actually know something.

Forgive me, if I offended in any way.

Ivan Seeking

Jun3-03, 06:10 PM

The older I get, the more I realize how little I know, and even how much less I used to know. Believe me all ye of youth, you have a lot to learn. In the same way, I still take advice and wisdom from my parents and in-laws. Nothing can provide the understanding gained through experience. Many people confuse wisdom with knowledge. There is a big difference. [:)]

Les Sleeth

Jun3-03, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Ouch. You mean to say you haven't found a bit of wisdom in anything I've every posted?

I will answer that with every ounce of honesty I can muster. I've thought you have spoken with exceptional insightfulness for someone so young.

But be careful not to claim wisdom prematurely. Look at some of the young geniuses of humanity who have early on demonstrated their brilliance, but never attained wisdom. I think in some cases early brilliance can make one focus too much on the intellect and not enough on developing as a balanced human being.

Originally posted by Mentat
However, if one's desire to learn and grow as a human being far outweighs that of the one who has had more time to do so, would not the first one be wiser? . . . As I've said before, a good (though not perfect) definition of "wisdom" is "applied knowledge/understanding". This means that an older person may have had more time to aquire "wisdom", but a younger person may have actually taken the opportunity, while the older one may have missed it.

But see, this is a sign of non-wisdom; that is, being in too much of a hurry to achieve something that takes a lifetime. Even Socrates required 3 or more times as many years of living as you to attain wisdom.

IMO, wisdom isn't a matter of being smarter than all the stupid adults you can find. I don't believe it is a "relative" thing, but rather something that comes after being a well-rounded explorer of life. Unless one has lived long enough to explore the many avenues of life, then how can one be wise?

You know, there is an old saying that wisdom never guides those who think they have it. Why not be content to declare yourself a genius [;)] but stay away from claiming precious wisdom so it is free to draw you towards itself.

Originally posted by Mentat
Forgive me, if I offended in any way.

Of course you haven't. But I do see an opportunity for kids to come here and not give enough weight to their lack of experience. I don't agree with the tactic of someone condescending based on age, education, or anything else (which does go on here). We should all reason with evidence and logic, and may the best thinker prevail!

By the same token, each of us have to weigh our experience and those we interact with. I still make the mistake of not listening as much as I should when I'm out of my area of expertise.

Ivan Seeking

Jun3-03, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Amen to that last part, as I've - on many occasions - lost the most patronizing of adults in my sesquipedalianistic speech ("sesquipedalianism" is the use of big words, btw).

You’re losing me; Sesquipedalism would suffice but you just have to use big words. [:D]

Fliption

Jun3-03, 10:45 PM

And now here comes Fliption with his analogies....

... this discussion on wisdom is like 2 people debating which of two soft drinks is the sweetest when one person has tasted both soft drinks and the other person has only tasted one.

Mentat

Jun4-03, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I will answer that with every ounce of honesty I can muster. I've thought you have spoken with exceptional insightfulness for someone so young.

Thank you.

But be careful not to claim wisdom prematurely. Look at some of the young geniuses of humanity who have early on demonstrated their brilliance, but never attained wisdom. I think in some cases early brilliance can make one focus too much on the intellect and not enough on developing as a balanced human being.

So wisdom has to do with being a balanced human being? I thought being a balanced human being had to do with morality (and, perhaps, enlightenment).

But see, this is a sign of non-wisdom; that is, being in too much of a hurry to achieve something that takes a lifetime.

Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it.

When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older".

This tendency hasn't entirely left me, although I am not nearly as competitive anymore.

Even Socrates required 3 or more times as many years of living as you to attain wisdom.

Socrates probably believed that it took a long time to attain wisdom. You know, if you think it takes an hour to do the dishes, you will take an hour to do the dishes. But, if you think it only takes a half hour, you will finish in a half hour.

IMO, wisdom isn't a matter of being smarter than all the stupid adults you can find. I don't believe it is a "relative" thing, but rather something that comes after being a well-rounded explorer of life. Unless one has lived long enough to explore the many avenues of life, then how can one be wise?

What if one is exposed to all of these avenues more quickly than another. Likely (according to your reasoning) this one would attain wisdom sooner, right?

You know, there is an old saying that wisdom never guides those who think they have it. Why not be content to declare yourself a genius [;)] but stay away from claiming precious wisdom so it is free to draw you towards itself.

Well, I had always thought that wisdom could be had in degrees (much like knowledge and understanding). If it can be, than even a young child is justified in declaring his/herself wise (at least to some minute degree). However, if it is a complete "black or white" type of thing, then I am not wise, and would not have assumed that I was.

Of course you haven't. But I do see an opportunity for kids to come here and not give enough weight to their lack of experience.

And how much weight is "enough"?

It would appear that you are saying that one must be wise, in order to understand whether they (or someone else) are wise or not. This would mean that you are wise, but that I (who do not yet understand how to measure wisdom, or even if it can be measured) am certainly not.

I don't agree with the tactic of someone condescending based on age, education, or anything else (which does go on here). We should all reason with evidence and logic, and may the best thinker prevail!

I like this.

By the same token, each of us have to weigh our experience and those we interact with. I still make the mistake of not listening as much as I should when I'm out of my area of expertise.

This brings up another interesting point: Is one who has lived longer necessarily more of an expert at living? It's something to think about, at least.

Mentat

Jun4-03, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
And now here comes Fliption with his analogies....

... this discussion on wisdom is like 2 people debating which of two soft drinks is the sweetest when one person has tasted both soft drinks and the other person has only tasted one.

Perhaps you should expound on that, as I don't see where I (or LW Sleeth) fit in.

Andy

Jun4-03, 04:49 PM

I am 17!

Mentat

Jun4-03, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Andy
I am 17!

Apparently you are proud of it, too.

KLscilevothma

Jun4-03, 06:28 PM

I'm 17 too. I've checked that I'm one day older than Andy !! wow [:D]
We'll be 18 in August.

18 is a golden age, and I can do lots of things which I can't do before 18. I can have the right to vote, I can have a car licence, etc. At 18, I'll finish high school education too though it will be a tough year striving for good results in harsh public exams.

I hope I can be more and more intellectual as I grow older though I don't know whether I would grow wiser or not. [:D]

Anyway, life is beautiful, no matter what age we are at.[:))]

BoulderHead

Jun4-03, 07:43 PM

I hope I can be more and more intellectual as I grow older though I don't know whether I would grow wiser or not.Uh, you may need to wait until you're of drinking age before you have the answer for that one...[6)] [:D]

Les Sleeth

Jun4-03, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
So wisdom has to do with being a balanced human being? I thought being a balanced human being had to do with morality (and, perhaps, enlightenment).

I was just referring to exposing yourself to a full range of human experiences. If you stay in your house and only read books, you may become a great book reader, but you cannot possibly learn anything about social skills, the experience of nature, romantic love, developing a talent such as playing music or cooking, athletic achievement, and so on. Some people dive into life with the intent of learning all they can; what lies dormant inside you will come to fruition as you explore. Others are intent only on pursuing that which furthers their selfish or obsessive desires, and so end up narrowly developed.

Originally posted by Mentat When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older". This tendency hasn't entirely left me, although I am not nearly as competitive anymore.

I understand this. Something that goes on, particularly among men IMO, is this constant competition to establish a pecking order. Who is above whom, who is below whom, who the hell do you think you are?????? Being powerful is part of being manly (some think), and it has distinct advantages too to have power. It doesn’t matter to some if they are right or not, they have the power to do what they want, and so use that to enforce their will. Kids may sense this and feel it is unfair, which it can be.

I myself was raised in a tough situation, and after I left home was more or less insane for many years. I fought every hint of authority so that no one with power could harm me again. But the truth is, it isn’t power that’s to be feared, it is petty, small-minded, insecure, and evil people with power you have to look out for. A good and wise person with power can be most beneficial. If you are ready to resist anyone with power, you will miss out on those who can, and want to, help point you in directions that will assist your growth.

Still, I do understand what it is like to be a kid in a world where everyone has power but you. It won’t last. Yet you must realize that you have to earn power by being successful in areas where you are interested. No amount of demanding fairness will succeed. You cannot just trot in and demand equal say; believe me, you will get flattened (BIG TIME!). The old phrase “might makes right” still has relevance even if we’ve (especially Western culture) taken significant steps toward recognizing some deeper sense of what is “right.”

Here’s a little wisdom for you about how to deal with tyranny when you haven’t the power to overthrow it. I quote from the I Ching, hexagram 36, line 5:

“Darkening of the light as with Prince Chi. Perseverance furthers. Prince Chi lived at the court of the evil tyrant Chou Hsin, who . . . furnishes the historical example on which this whole situation is based. Prince Chi was a relative of the tyrant and could not withdraw from court; therefore he concealed his true sentiments . . . [and] did not allow external misery to deflect him from his convictions. This provides a teaching for those who cannot leave their posts in times of darkness. In order to escape danger, they need invincible perseverance of spirit and redoubled caution in their dealings with world.”

Originally posted by Mentat Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it. . . . Socrates probably believed that it took a long time to attain wisdom. You know, if you think it takes an hour to do the dishes, you will take an hour to do the dishes. But, if you think it only takes a half hour, you will finish in a half hour.

That is not a good theory. Just because you believe you can breathe under water, can you? Belief means nothing unless it is based on a realistic evaluation of the circumstances.

Originally posted by Mentat What if one is exposed to all of these avenues more quickly than another. Likely (according to your reasoning) this one would attain wisdom sooner, right?

Exactly how are you going to do this? You are stuck in your parent’s house, still required by law to attend school, still too young to enter into marriage, etc. It is all nice and safe for you now, with people watching out for you and your needs. But imagine how your perspectives will change after going through thousands of life situations. How are you going to acquire experience faster than by actually living it?

Originally posted by Mentat Well, I had always thought that wisdom could be had in degrees (much like knowledge and understanding). If it can be, than even a young child is justified in declaring his/herself wise (at least to some minute degree). However, if it is a complete "black or white" type of thing, then I am not wise, and would not have assumed that I was.

That’s true, it is acquired by degrees. What you do not understand is the role of personal experience in knowing. Until you personally experience, everything you think is theory. And that is exactly the difference between a young person ready to learn, and a mature person who has learned.

Originally posted by Mentat This brings up another interesting point: Is one who has lived longer necessarily more of an expert at living? It's something to think about, at least. . . . And how much weight is "enough"? . . . It would appear that you are saying that one must be wise, in order to understand whether they (or someone else) are wise or not. This would mean that you are wise, but that I (who do not yet understand how to measure wisdom, or even if it can be measured) am certainly not.

I have already acknowledged that older does not mean wiser. But, I think it is safe to say that it is wise to show respect for your elders (or anyone in power), and when you find out you shouldn’t respect someone in particular, don’t let it show. Just stop letting them influence you on anything that is important. When you want to supplant someone in power, work very, very hard at getting ready first, and keep your ambition to yourself. And do it because they (or their ideas) need replacing, because they are doing no good, and not for ego reasons.

Mentat, relax, take your time, be willing to participate in life. Have faith in yourself to do this so you don’t have to call yourself “wise” yet. Be a kid for awhile, it’s great! You have excellent potential, but if you are already closing off learning from others, you are dooming yourself to the fate you abhor so much.

Les Sleeth

Jun4-03, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Uh, you may need to wait until you're of drinking age before you have the answer for that one...[6)] [:D]

Hey, I was just about to say we need to get Boulderhead in on this discussion. [a)]

BoulderHead

Jun4-03, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Hey, I was just about to say we need to get Boulderhead in on this discussion. [a)] Rather than state my age and be thought senile, what I would add to this discussion is that from my experiences I believe wisdom is something born of age. I feel guilty saying it, but I’d find it difficult to accept, for example, that a young person who had never had a romantic fling could be ‘wise’. He/she might be very intellectual and exceptionally gifted in any number of ways (making me look like an idiot by comparison), but what am I supposed to think when this person starts feeding me words of wisdom about 'relationships' when I know they have never even remotely experienced such a thing? Did they read it in a book or have it whispered in their ear by a guru and then just accept it as fact?
This is not to say that a young person cannot be intelligent, well read, and be better prepared to make a decision that has the best chance of turning out to be correct. But I just don’t necessarily think that ‘wisdom’ is the right word to use in this case.
Hey, old folks have to have something to claim exclusive rights to, don’t we?
… I mean besides the keys to the car. [:D]

Les Sleeth

Jun4-03, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Hey, old folks have to have something to claim exclusive rights to, don’t we? … I mean besides the keys to the car. [:D]

There you go . . . one of the few people here older than me has wisely spoken.

Tom Mattson

Jun4-03, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Rather than state my age and be thought senile,

We've read 632 of your posts in PF v3.0 alone. Go ahead and state your age. [:D]

edit: That's 636. Now who's senile? [t)]

Fliption

Jun4-03, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Perhaps you should expound on that, as I don't see where I (or LW Sleeth) fit in.

Ahh now see if you were wise......[:)]

Seriously, I'll see if I can explain what I meant.

Lets sync drinking the softdrinks to age. Let's say everyone has to drink softdrink 1 when they are 10 years old. You drink it and swear it is the sweetest thing you have ever tasted. Almost all 10 year olds have the same experience.

LWSleeth comes along and tells you that everyone has to drink softdrink 1 and 2 at the age of 30 and compare them. He tells you that he also thought nothing could possibly be sweeter than softdrink 1. Until he turned 30. Then he realized he was wrong. And then you also found out that everyone over 30 claimed the same experience.

So what would your position on the sweetness of softdrink 1 be? Hopefully, you would enjoy softdrink 1 until it's time to try 2. Your attitude would probably be "will have to wait and see". But you would never be able to justify stomping your feet and telling people over 30 they were wrong. Would you?

BoulderHead

Jun4-03, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Tom
We've read 632 of your posts in PF v3.0 alone. Go ahead and state your age. [:D] You mean people actual read my posts? [:D]
Yes, what I should have said was “rather than state my age and thus put forth a possible cause to explain my behavior…”

edit: That's 636. Now who's senile? [t)] Say, I hadn’t even noticed how close I’m getting close to that ‘magic’ number! [:D]

An interesting thing about forums is that my mind often forms an image of various members. Seeing a photograph of them later, or dicovering an exact age interferes with my image making activities and requires me to make readjustments. I’m in my very own little Matrix, being used by DNA…

...Perhaps I wouldn't want the red pill after all. At any rate, I will wait to see if PF's very own Tomster will post his photo next members day before deciding to give in to the temptation myself.

maximus

Jun4-03, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead

At any rate, I will wait to see if PF's very own Tomster will post his photo next members day before deciding to give in to the temptation myself.

when is members' day?

Integral

Jun5-03, 12:56 AM

Well, it was my belief that it needn't take a lifetime. Otherwise, I would not have been in a hurry to achieve it

Wisdom is one of those things that cannot be sought, it either comes or it doesn't. If fact the harder you seek it the less likely you are to find it. Identical life expericnces will make one man wise and another insane, there is no rules and no path. Indeed, it may be something you are born with, but it cannot fully bloom until you have suffered the blows life deals out.

One thing that is certian, the louder you proclaim your wisdom the less likely you are to have it.

For an execellent description of a path to wisdom read Hermen Hesse's book Sidharatha

BTW: I totally agree with everything LWseeth has written.

Artman

Jun5-03, 10:49 AM

I'm 6.52 in dog years. [:)]

I have to say that I agree with LWseeth as well.

First of all, Mentat, if you hadn't posted your age, you could pass for an adult in most areas of this forum (I say this as a compliment [:)] ). The same goes for the other youthful members here. They are a very mature group of people and many seem wise beyond their years.

Originally posted by Mentat...When I was younger, my single greatest goal in life was to make absolutely certain that no older person could tell me [something to the effect of], "you'll understand when you get older".

There is a story about the Karate star Bruce Lee that I think has some application to this statement. Bruce Lee used the following illustration when teaching. he would fill a cup to the top with tea, then he would ask the student if they can put more tea in the cup. The answer, of course, is "no" because the cup is already full.

As good as he was at Martial Arts, Bruce Lee would empty himself of preconcieved notions before viewing a new or different style. He would observe it as if starting from the beginning and then he would fit it in with his own style. In effect, he would "empty his cup" so he could fill it again.

Personally, I prefer for people to underestimate me in most things. I can accomplish more when people don't know what I'm capable of.

Andy

Jun5-03, 01:36 PM

Yes im proud of being 17, whats not to be proud off? and i also have my own car keys!

Mentat

Jun5-03, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I was just referring to exposing yourself to a full range of human experiences. If you stay in your house and only read books, you may become a great book reader, but you cannot possibly learn anything about social skills, the experience of nature, romantic love, developing a talent such as playing music or cooking, athletic achievement, and so on. Some people dive into life with the intent of learning all they can; what lies dormant inside you will come to fruition as you explore. Others are intent only on pursuing that which furthers their selfish or obsessive desires, and so end up narrowly developed.

But the discussion is on wisdom, and it appears to me that you believe wisdom to be inseperably associated with broad developement.

I understand this. Something that goes on, particularly among men IMO, is this constant competition to establish a pecking order. Who is above whom, who is below whom, who the hell do you think you are?????? Being powerful is part of being manly (some think), and it has distinct advantages too to have power. It doesn’t matter to some if they are right or not, they have the power to do what they want, and so use that to enforce their will. Kids may sense this and feel it is unfair, which it can be.

I myself was raised in a tough situation, and after I left home was more or less insane for many years. I fought every hint of authority so that no one with power could harm me again. But the truth is, it isn’t power that’s to be feared, it is petty, small-minded, insecure, and evil people with power you have to look out for. A good and wise person with power can be most beneficial. If you are ready to resist anyone with power, you will miss out on those who can, and want to, help point you in directions that will assist your growth.

Still, I do understand what it is like to be a kid in a world where everyone has power but you. It won’t last. Yet you must realize that you have to earn power by being successful in areas where you are interested. No amount of demanding fairness will succeed. You cannot just trot in and demand equal say; believe me, you will get flattened (BIG TIME!). The old phrase “might makes right” still has relevance even if we’ve (especially Western culture) taken significant steps toward recognizing some deeper sense of what is “right.”

Alright. I never really wanted to have power over anyone else, and don't mind someone's having power over me, provided I believe they have earned it, or that they deserve it.

I guess you're right about demanding fair treatment; however, I still can't understand how all of these people, who hold down anyone with potential, could have been in my situation before, but learned nothing from it.

That is not a good theory. Just because you believe you can breathe under water, can you? Belief means nothing unless it is based on a realistic evaluation of the circumstances.

Oh I know this. Still, belief can be a limiting factor. You see, if someone has a realistic evaluation of the circumstances, then they will not impose unnecessary limits on themesleves.

Exactly how are you going to do this? You are stuck in your parent’s house, still required by law to attend school, still too young to enter into marriage, etc. It is all nice and safe for you now, with people watching out for you and your needs. But imagine how your perspectives will change after going through some situations like this:

You fall in love and get your heart broken three times before you finish high school, you have to leave home and look out for yourself, you go into the military and do a tour of Viet Nam (or its equivalent), you do drugs, you live in Phoenix, you get out of the military and go to live in Connecticut, you move to New York City, you fall in love again, you do wicked drugs and get so sick you decide to move to St. Louis and enroll in college, you work hard and get a scholarship to a major university, you get married, you have doubts about what you are studying and lose your scholarship, you move to California, you work at jobs ranging from gas station attendant to landscape assistant, you get divorced, you get back into college, you graduate, you start your own business, you are terrible at running a business day-to-day, you go back to college for more education, you change careers, you marry the office manager of your failed business, your sister comes to live with you dying of cancer, your grandparents die, your aunt and uncle die, your parents die, everyone is dying, you suddenly realize the inevitable truth of your own temporary existence, not just conceptually, but with brutal clarity . . .

Now, all that is just points along the way . . . the way itself is packed with juicy details. So again I ask you, how are you going to acquire experience faster than by actually living it?

By learning from the mistakes of others. Sure, one can attain knowledge from making mistakes, and learning from them. But isn't it the wise course to learn from the mistakes of others, so as to avoid them yourself? After all, no one lives forever; so one can either waste most of their life, making the same mistakes that millions have made before them; or they can learn from the mistakes of others, and avoid them - thus succesfully making a [if nothing else] unique life for themselves.

That’s true, it is acquired by degrees. What you do not understand is the role of personal experience in knowing. Until you personally experience, everything you think is theory. And that is exactly the difference between a young person ready to learn, and a mature person who has learned.

Yet, isn't it wiser to simply avoid that which you disapprove of, based on "theory" (as you put it)? Why should one waste valuable time, just to have the experiences of billions of others - in times past - when they could have just trusted "theory" (and experiences that are told to them), and gone down a better path than their predecessors?

I have already acknowledged that older does not mean wiser. But, I think it is safe to say that it is wise to show respect for your elders (or anyone in power)

But, you see? You have equated being elderly with having power.

Mentat, relax, take your time, be willing to participate in life. Have faith in yourself to do this so you don’t have to call yourself “wise” yet. Be a kid for awhile, it’s great!

I've never been a "kid". It has always been my opinion that a child is a nymph adult (if you'll excuse the analogy), and that to nurture childhood is to help an ambitious child explore his/her potential.

You have excellent potential, but if you are already closing off learning from others, you are dooming yourself to the fate you abhor so much.

But I'm not closing myself off from learning. In fact, I've been denouncing that kind of behavior (usually committed by adults who think themsleves superior to children).

Mentat

Jun5-03, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
Ahh now see if you were wise......[:)]

Seriously, I'll see if I can explain what I meant.

Lets sync drinking the softdrinks to age. Let's say everyone has to drink softdrink 1 when they are 10 years old. You drink it and swear it is the sweetest thing you have ever tasted. Almost all 10 year olds have the same experience.

LWSleeth comes along and tells you that everyone has to drink softdrink 1 and 2 at the age of 30 and compare them. He tells you that he also thought nothing could possibly be sweeter than softdrink 1. Until he turned 30. Then he realized he was wrong. And then you also found out that everyone over 30 claimed the same experience.

So what would your position on the sweetness of softdrink 1 be? Hopefully, you would enjoy softdrink 1 until it's time to try 2. Your attitude would probably be "will have to wait and see". But you would never be able to justify stomping your feet and telling people over 30 they were wrong. Would you?

Oh no, I would simply take a sip of some 30-year-old's soft drink, so to speak. I would definitely think that the 30-year-old would be wrong for patronizing me, simply because he thinks I haven't tasted soft drink #2 (though I might have, at some point). And I would speak out against people setting ages on when one should drink softdrink #2.

Mentat

Jun5-03, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Wisdom is one of those things that cannot be sought, it either comes or it doesn't. If fact the harder you seek it the less likely you are to find it. Identical life expericnces will make one man wise and another insane, there is no rules and no path. Indeed, it may be something you are born with, but it cannot fully bloom until you have suffered the blows life deals out.

One thing that is certian, the louder you proclaim your wisdom the less likely you are to have it.

For an execellent description of a path to wisdom read Hermen Hesse's book Sidharatha

BTW: I totally agree with everything LWseeth has written.

And perhaps, when I am old, I will also agree with LW Sleeth.

There is one term that I wish to draw to your and his attention: unspoiled.

Les Sleeth

Jun5-03, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
But the discussion is on wisdom, and it appears to me that you believe wisdom to be inseperably associated with broad developement.

Yes. The broader the better. And it doesn't mean you can't specialize in something too.

Originally posted by Mentat
I guess you're right about demanding fair treatment; however, I still can't understand how all of these people, who hold down anyone with potential, could have been in my situation before, but learned nothing from it

Good point. People tend to do unto others as has been done unto them; that's partially why there are too few wise people.

Originally posted by Mentat
Sure, one can attain knowledge from making mistakes, and learning from them. But isn't it the wise course to learn from the mistakes of others, so as to avoid them yourself?

Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Originally posted by Mentat
But, you see? You have equated being elderly with having power.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

Originally posted by Mentat
I've never been a "kid". It has always been my opinion that a child is a nymph adult (if you'll excuse the analogy), and that to nurture childhood is to help an ambitious child explore his/her potential.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Originally posted by Mentat
But I'm not closing myself off from learning. In fact, I've been denouncing that kind of behavior (usually committed by adults who think themsleves superior to children).

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

Fliption

Jun5-03, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Oh no, I would simply take a sip of some 30-year-old's soft drink, so to speak. I would definitely think that the 30-year-old would be wrong for patronizing me, simply because he thinks I haven't tasted soft drink #2 (though I might have, at some point). And I would speak out against people setting ages on when one should drink softdrink #2.

Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

Andy

Jun5-03, 05:36 PM

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

Maybe you can? Im not too hot with this but if you where from the same planet as Mork (from Mork and Mindy) then wouldnt you get younger as you get older or is it get older as you get younger?

Mentat

Jun5-03, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yes, and that is a smart way to see it. But it doesn't matter whose mistakes you recognize and avoid, you are still going to make your own mistakes. And the more you seek true wisdom, the more mistakes you will make because you will find yourself following paths outside the "rank and file" (i.e., where there may not be much support or advice for you).

Also, and this is main reason I am responding to you again, I realized after I wrote that little collection of events in my last post that it was all mistakes and hard times that can hit a person as they mature. But there are also the successes, especially if someone is really trying to learn. When you see a person who has been through a lot and is still happy and hopeful, you know they've been learning and it is that which they choose to focus on, not the mistakes.

Good point.

Well, how many children do you know in power?

I suppose I could mention King Josiah, but I suppose you are correct. Of course, it only seems to me as though this is a by-product of elderly peoples' missing the wisdom of young ones.

Too bad. What about enjoying yourself, having fun, being happy?

Learning makes me happy.

I want you to think about something that I believe is a pretty good insight. If someone habitually and mindlessly goes along with social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc. just because "that's the way it's done," then wouldn't you say they are contemptable rank and file of your signature?

However, if you habitually and mindlessly go against social conventions, traditions, people in power, etc., then how are you different? A habitual contrary is no more conscious than a habitual sheep.

In other words, don't let bad experiences with oppressive people spoil your outlook by giving you an "attitude" where you should be neutral and open. If you do let it get to you like that, then those people who've oppressed you will continue to do so in absentia, and with your active participation!

Thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense.

Mentat

Jun5-03, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
Well let me be more clear. It is not possible to drink these softdrinks before the age I specified. This is the whole point. That's what makes the analogy work.

You cannot have the experience of being a 50 year old when you are 12.

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

Artman

Jun6-03, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

Integral

Jun6-03, 09:38 AM

What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

maximus

Jun6-03, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

oh? and how do you earn wisdom? get to a certain age and it's yours? i would agree on many of your guy's statements:
1)wisdom can be acquired through experience. (a boy living in a rough innercity probobly has more than a middle class boy becuase he is exposed to more experiences)

2) age is not a requirment for the gaining of wisdom. (like Mentat so wisely said: it only gives one more chances to gain wisdom)

3) therefore this would mean that older people are more likely to be wise, but that does not rule out the rest of us either. (if we spend our time well)

Integral

Jun6-03, 11:32 AM

Did you read my post up above?

Wisdom is a result of life experiances, it is not a learned thing. Not everyone is capable of learning from life experiance thus EARNING wisdom.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun6-03, 11:56 AM

Perhaps I can add 'two cents' that will assist.

In defining Wisdom, from the example in the Bible of the Wisdom of Solomen, I will assume you know the story.

Hence what we find is that Solomen excersized "Good Judgment", in my opinon that is really what wisdom is, the ability to excersize "Good Judgments" which is why the appearance of the need of experianced knowledge, as that is the tool that assists in enabling the path towards good judgments.

Solomen had to draw from a knoweldge of human nature, knowing that the real mother of the child would sacrifce herself, to save her child.

It is from that base of knowlege that he was able to "test for the truth", and it is from the result of that test that he was able to excersize good judgment.

It is an ability to find 'truthful' knowledge, that leads to the ability to excersize good judgment, hence appear as wise.

But I agree with Integral, it is earned, and you have no knowledge of the price you must pay beforehand, hence it is given to you everytime, or not.

As the Bible tells, all true wisdom comes from God, Human wisdom is easily demonstrated as folly, and I could give example of that second line, but it is iconoclastic, and people dislike you violating (demonstrating their errors) there idols.

Mentat

Jun6-03, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Artman
How do you know they are telling the truth?

It is kind of like learning to tie your shoes by reading a set of instructions, yet never actually having done it. Would you really know how?

This question has to do with knowledge, not wisdom. Besides, yes I'd know how, provided the book was accurately written, and I understood it correctly.

Mentat

Jun6-03, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

Les Sleeth

Jun6-03, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

Well, I think Integral is saying what several of us have been trying to explain to you, but you don't have enough life experience yet to recognize what's being said. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely.

What you don't know yet is how crucial experience is to knowing. I am contrasting actual knowing to believing or thinking or suspecting or feeling. Right now you are looking ahead to important things with beliefs about them, but not much (if any) experience with them.

True, just getting experience with marriage, for example, doesn't automatically mean you will become wise about marriage; but no experience with marriage definitely means no wisdom. You might have good theories about it, and you might be the sort of human being who naturally will excel at it, but that still isn't wisdom. Wisdom specifically comes from what you learn from doing something. That is why it is "earned," because you can't just sit in your room and get wise by thinking, only by doing. That doing usually has a price too because of the mistakes made, and this is why a lot of people stop doing anything new as they get older and their brains atrophy.

I will stick my neck out a little and say that wisdom is applied primarily to human interaction and personal growth, and as such the most powerful wisdom is derived from understanding human nature first, then understanding how the "world" works (i.e., the various social, legal, political, familial, etc. systems), then the nature of physical universe, and finally understanding human potentials and limitations in those realms. As you can see, there is a lot to "do" to acquire knowledge like that. Just living and studying can tell one quite a bit about the last three areas on the list, but understanding human nature, that is killer. Some of the wisest people have said, like Socrates, to "know thy self" first and the rest will follow.

So, you should be able to see why you can't possibly have much wisdom -- because you haven't had time to do much. Will you be one of the rare life adventurers with the courage to fully participate in living for the sake of pursuing widom? Or will you become another of those who fall victim to life's struggles and so gives up? Or worse still, will you be among the ranks of the most foolish of all -- those who think they are wise without having done anything?

[EDIT]

I thought I should add that, speaking for myself, I can't yet claim to be wise. It is something I aspire to, however, so I do feel it is important to understand what it is now so I actually do what it takes to make progress.

Integral

Jun6-03, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
With all due respect, prove it.

Besides, if one is going to postulate that wisdom must be earned, then one should also include how it is earned.

If it could be learned then there would be universtiy, or High school or perhaps even kindergarden classes in wisdom. That does not happen because you simply cannot teach wisdom. That is why I say it must be earned, and just as not everyone earns the same amount of money not every earns wisdom.

In education everyone can pick up a book and read read it, many learn something, fewer truly understand the material, fewer are able to apply the material, fewer still are able to process the material and then extend the knowledge to new horizons. Such is the case with life experiances, we all have them, some learn from them, fewer assimilate the knowlege are are able to incorporate it into their lifes. Wisdom is the pinnale of this process.

Ivan Seeking

Jun6-03, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Integral
I will reiterate... Wisdom can not be learned, it is only earned.

I don't claim to be wise, but I think I am wiser now than 20 years ago. I have wondered if the acquisition of wisdom can be traced to a permanent chemical change in the brain. Perhaps wisdom is a unique form of memory. When I have experienced extreme difficulties - the kind that often leave one wiser - and once I dealt with the problem or situation at hand, I often feel changed; much like I felt in college after first grasping some new and challenging math or physics concept. Just like in physics, if you suffer in life, you grow. Consider an old bit of wisdom: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Sounds like chemistry to me. [a)]

TENYEARS

Jun6-03, 10:14 PM

There have been some good points here. I have one disagreement. Is it that the young as well as some of the old do not have the ability to understand or is it the desire to understand? What is preventing the desire? Wisdom is paid in full and becomes the fabric of being.

Throw out the word desire.

If I threw a ball to you and you dropped it why? There is only one reason and one reason alone. If I say it was your ability, that would be egoism on my part and also a lie. There is only one truthful reason and anyone who honestly questions the question will have the answer to infinite questions.

Fliption

Jun6-03, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
What if you listen to a fifty-year-old and learn from his/her experiences? (Thus taking the softdrink from the mouth of he/she who has partaken (nasty thought, but the only way to apply this reasoning to the analogy)).

But you cannot taste the softdrink until you are 30 (or fifty) and there is nothing anyone can tell you that will be quite like tasting it for yourself.

maximus

Jun7-03, 01:27 AM

hmm. an interesting analogy, but i don't think it's entirly accurate. in our scientific revolutionary information-age one can (providing they are able to pay attetion well enough) get a pretty good sence of what it feels like to be thirty. i'll admit that we don't know exactly what it's like, but we have the capacity to understand.
go ahead,give us a test of our wisdom using something that one can only acquire past the age of, say, thirty. (this should be fun!)
(or is it possible to test wisdom?,and if not than how can we ever say someone is wise?)

TENYEARS

Jun7-03, 09:56 AM

When I was 23 I became enlightented and saw god. They say it is omni some kind of bull????. There have been gigs of dead wood on this written about it and you have probably read some about it are you now wise about it now?

To some degree I would agree with integral about people and their realization of life even though I know they can. When I was young I took nothing for granted and believed nothing. I did not say it was wrong, but I did not acknowlege it until it became an understanding and sometimes it was wrong. This and only this is being true to yourself. If you need to prove an adult wrong, it is an ego trip and it is not about knowlege. Everyone has something to give in life no matter the age. The question is are you ready to play catch? It all comes down to that and nothing else. If you treat life like a young child you will always be receptive to reality, you will learn and you will become a true human being. Until then you are playing nothing but king of the hill.

Note: Some of you have lied about your ages.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun7-03, 09:58 AM

Simple (not really a) test....

In the Bible God states that "All of this universe is a part of me, but all of this universe, is not me".

Answer please. (explain the 'apparent' paradox)

(As to avoid giving it away "to all", give them a chance to figure it out too, you could PM me, your choice, choose wisely!)

Les Sleeth

Jun7-03, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by maximus
hmm. an interesting analogy, but i don't think it's entirly accurate. in our scientific revolutionary information-age one can (providing they are able to pay attetion well enough) get a pretty good sence of what it feels like to be thirty. i'll admit that we don't know exactly what it's like, but we have the capacity to understand. Go ahead, give us a test of our wisdom using something that one can only acquire past the age of, say, thirty. (this should be fun!) (or is it possible to test wisdom?,and if not than how can we ever say someone is wise?)

I don’t believe this is a good test. A better test would be to put you in a situation that a thirty year old is handling, like say maintaining a relationship with a wife, raising two kids, holding down a job, and maybe going to graduate school at night three times a week and see how you handle that. Yet that just addresses one part of the formula for wisdom, i.e., the need for life experience, because being experienced alone doesn’t necessarily translate into wisdom.

Everyone is searching for happiness, fulfillment, contentment – and all the stuff you see people doing is either to get it or numb or hide from the misery they feel from not having it. Now we are getting close to the wisdom thing because as one acquires life experience, and attempts various avenues in hopes of achieving fulfillment, one either learns from the attempts, makes adjustments and keeps searching, or one settles along the way for something less, or one keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over, which can lead to one giving up entirely and being miserable.

In my opinion, the person who becomes wise is the one who never gives up and realizes that fulfillment in an inner thing, and then walks the path of life with an open heart and mind, determined to learn. One has to be willing to face one’s demons (and we all have them) and get to the true self that lies buried beneath all that conditioning.

Young persons haven’t lived much, so they are all talk when it comes to the meaning of life. They haven’t shown they can make it to fulfillment, and since I know very few people who have achieved it (at least deeply), there is no reason for me to believe kids when they claim to have “wisdom.” And it is bravado speaking when they say they will do it better than the adults, total naiveté. They have no idea what’s in store for them experientially and how their psyche is going to stand up. They also don’t know how their “demons” are going to interfere with all their perfect plans as life proceeds.

Of course, all that means is kids cannot have wisdom, but it doesn’t mean kids don’t have something to offer. I personally love kids, and interact with them every chance I get because their naturalness helps me to feel my own natural self. This is definitely something most adults can learn from children.[:)]

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun7-03, 05:49 PM

Perhaps an aspect of 'true' wisdom, is learning to become/act-as an adult, while remembering how to feel like a child.

(child-like, NOT child-ish)

That way the adult can learn faster, as a child, so naturally, does.

stuffy

Jun7-03, 06:06 PM

21 and loving it. :)

Mentat

Jun7-03, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Well, I think Integral is saying what several of us have been trying to explain to you, but you don't have enough life experience yet to recognize what's being said. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely.

I believe that you are sincere. However, have you considered the fact that you are basically saying one has to be wise, in order to even understand wisdom? This means that you are declaring yourself wise, which is something you, and Integral, have both said a wise man never does.

True, just getting experience with marriage, for example, doesn't automatically mean you will become wise about marriage; but no experience with marriage definitely means no wisdom. You might have good theories about it, and you might be the sort of human being who naturally will excel at it, but that still isn't wisdom. Wisdom specifically comes from what you learn from doing something.

I see. So wisdom must come from personal experience? Do you believe that this is wise counsel? Because, if so, you can't possibly relate it to me (as wisdom shouldn't be relateable, by your reasoning).

Remember, I don't mean to be irritating, or to argue. I'm debating the point simply because I disagree, and am positive that we can reach the right conclusion, through discussion (though I will not assume that either of us already has the right answer, coming into the debate).

So, you should be able to see why you can't possibly have much wisdom -- because you haven't had time to do much. Will you be one of the rare life adventurers with the courage to fully participate in living for the sake of pursuing widom? Or will you become another of those who fall victim to life's struggles and so gives up? Or worse still, will you be among the ranks of the most foolish of all -- those who think they are wise without having done anything?

These are only the consequences of your reasoning on wisdom. You still have yet to prove it. You see, it is one thing to explain the consequences of "if your reasoning right", but it is quite another to prove the actual premise of your reasoning.

[EDIT]

I thought I should add that, speaking for myself, I can't yet claim to be wise.

Then can you truly claim to understand wisdom (in light of what you've already said on this thread)?

Mentat

Jun7-03, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Integral
If it could be learned then there would be universtiy, or High school or perhaps even kindergarden classes in wisdom.

Well, if Wisdom = Applied Knowledge/Applied Understanding, then that's exactly what Universities/Schools/etc are for.

That does not happen because you simply cannot teach wisdom. That is why I say it must be earned, and just as not everyone earns the same amount of money not every earns wisdom.

Surely you realize that you are teaching me an important point about wisdom, while at the same time saying that one cannot teach wisdom (you are in fact doing this in the same sentence, thus...paradox).

In education everyone can pick up a book and read read it, many learn something, fewer truly understand the material, fewer are able to apply the material, fewer still are able to process the material and then extend the knowledge to new horizons. Such is the case with life experiances, we all have them, some learn from them, fewer assimilate the knowlege are are able to incorporate it into their lifes. Wisdom is the pinnale of this process.

Thought ya couldn't teach wisdom (just kiddin').

Mentat

Jun7-03, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
But you cannot taste the softdrink until you are 30 (or fifty) and there is nothing anyone can tell you that will be quite like tasting it for yourself.

Then the analogy doesn't apply to wisdom (until proven otherwise).

Let me use the example of "chess wisdom", as it seems pertinent. There are some things that are not taught in chess books, but are rather learned through experience in chess. This is considered "chess wisdom". One of the old masters (such as Kasparov or Reschevskey (my personal favorites)) would know full well that (for example), in a direct attack on the king, the material value of the pieces is not as important as the amount of pieces.

You see? This is a bit of chess wisdom, that one can still learn, even though it took someone else many years of experience to find it.

Les Sleeth

Jun7-03, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
I believe that you are sincere. However, have you considered the fact that you are basically saying one has to be wise, in order to even understand wisdom?

Yes, so?

Originally posted by Mentat
This means that you are declaring yourself wise, which is something you, and Integral, have both said a wise man never does.

Say there is a path that leads to a hidden city. You have read extensively about this path, and believe yourself to be an expert on it. Others are actually on the path, and have things to say about the way the path is walked. Because they can speak with authority about what they have learned about how the path is walked doesn't mean they claim to have reached the hidden city. But they can say that you, having only read about it, don't know anything about the path yet except theories.

Originally posted by Mentat
I see. So wisdom must come from personal experience? Do you believe that this is wise counsel? Because, if so, you can't possibly relate it to me (as wisdom shouldn't be relateable, by your reasoning).

Give it up Mentat, you are being argumentative rather than honestly trying to understand. That point makes no sense at all! You can have a concept about wisdom, which some of us have been trying to share with you, and that can serve as a guide to you when it becomes time for you to set off on your own. But if you already think you know it all, then let's not waste any more time here.

Originally posted by Mentat
Remember, I don't mean to be irritating, or to argue. I'm debating the point simply because I disagree, and am positive that we can reach the right conclusion, through discussion (though I will not assume that either of us already has the right answer, coming into the debate).

I don't think you are trying to be irritating, but I do think you want to hold on to your dream of being wise without having earned it. Going into the world with that attitude, IMO, is going to greatly increase the chances of you getting your *** kicked by realty. It is a wall that you cannot negotiate with.

Originally posted by Mentat
These are only the consequences of your reasoning on wisdom. You still have yet to prove it. You see, it is one thing to explain the consequences of "if your reasoning right", but it is quite another to prove the actual premise of your reasoning.

One doesn't "prove" wisdom!!!!! If you weren't so attached to being a precocious Socrates, you already would have accepted the obviousness of what everyone has shared with you. I have no stake in your future, so if you want to go ahead and claim wisdom . . . be my guest.

Originally posted by Mentat
Then can you truly claim to understand wisdom (in light of what you've already said on this thread)?

I understand it the best I can with the information I have, which is lot more information than you have. It is your choice to listen or not.

In defense of your position, I would agree that you should be careful who you take advice from. But I don't think you can decide merely from a debate. You have to observe someone over time, and notice how consistent he/she is. What I have done many times is to fully listen to someone's advice but decide later how much (if any) of it I will follow. The most important thing is to listen, absorb, understand . . . don't be a hardhead. There is a BIG difference between listening and understanding other perspectives and then actually going along with them. Older people can be a great resource if you treat them with respect. Say "yes" with the attitude you show them, and then learn how to filter out what doesn't fit into your goals or life.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun7-03, 07:07 PM

Perhaps I can help, mentat, just because wisdom is relatable doesn't mean that the person it is related to, becomes wise, it simply means they have one more small little piece of a sorta huge puzzle.

Originally posted by Mentat

Surely you realize that you are teaching me an important point about wisdom, while at the same time saying that one cannot teach wisdom.

Teaching you a point about wisdom, is not teaching you to be wise, but assisting you in looking 'within yourself' for it.

Maybe I should stay outa this one for the rest of it.......as most of what I have said, I suspect, is being ignored.

Les Sleeth

Jun7-03, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Maybe I should stay outa this one for the rest of it.......as most of what I have said, I suspect, is being ignored.

I like this that you said, "Teaching you a point about wisdom, is not teaching you to be wise, but assisting you in looking 'within yourself' for it."

I think some kids have a problem accepting the role of experience in knowing because they are already determined to be wise without experience. And that problem may stem from being oppressed by adults who set themselves up as all-knowing and then treat kids as know-nothings. That sort of disrespectful behavior toward kids is very regretable, especially when it turns kids into the very know-it-alls they despise.

Mentat

Jun7-03, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Say there is a path that leads to a hidden city. You have read extensively about this path, and believe yourself to be an expert on it. Others are actually on the path, and have things to say about the way the path is walked. Because they can speak with authority about what they have learned about how the path is walked doesn't mean they claim to have reached the hidden city. But they can say that you, having only read about it, don't know anything about the path yet except theories.

What exactly seperates me from you? Remember, I'm not saying that I'm wise (I was, but that's just because I thought it could be had in degrees, and thus an infant is wise to some degree). However, I don't see what the huge wall between you and I is, I don't see why it has to exist, and I don't see why reading about something (and actually understanding it) is different from having messed up (because of not having been prepared, which is what reading would have done for you) and learning from it.

Give it up Mentat, you are being argumentative rather than honestly trying to understand.

No I'm not, I'm just showing you the flaw in your reasoning. If it turns out that it's not really flawed I will apologize and withdraw my objection (as anyone who has spent any significant time on these forums knows is true).

That point makes no sense at all! You can have a concept about wisdom, which some of us have been trying to share with you, and that can serve as a guide to you when it becomes time for you to set off on your own. But if you already think you know it all, then let's not waste any more time here.

I don't know everything, in fact - if knowledge is infinite - I know nothing at all [:D]. However, I do happen to know the self-contradictory state of saying that one cannot understand wisdom. It both posulates having wisdom on the matter of wisdom, and that one cannot have wisdom on the matter of wisdom.

How is this confusing?

I don't think you are trying to be irritating, but I do think you want to hold on to your dream of being wise without having earned it.

Well you're wrong about that. I want to know the truth about wisdom, and (in my experience (which, I grant you, is extremely limited)) one can only find the truth by passing all ideas "through the fire", so to speak. If your idea survives my "fire" (insignificant as it may turn out to be), I will accept it as truth.

Going into the world with that attitude, IMO, is going to greatly increase the chances of you getting your *** kicked by realty. It is a wall that you cannot negotiate with.

Bring it on.

Just kidding. Know that my attitude is not as you percieved it, but is really a sincere "Mentat" request for wisdom (by which I mean that this is how Mentat learns something he doesn't originally want to accept. Michael spends his whole life being told to just wait for wisdom to come to him; that he's just too young to understand. It's as I said in "Mentat and I": I am freer on the PFs).

Please try to understand my situation.

One doesn't "prove" wisdom!!!!! If you weren't so attached to being a precocious Socrates, you already would have accepted the obviousness of what everyone has shared with you.

If you weren't so positive that your point was obvious, you would see that it is not the only truth (obviously [;)]).

I have no stake in your future, so if you want to go ahead and claim wisdom . . . be my guest.

I've already done that. I now retract it, but ask to be enlightened.

I understand it the best I can with the information I have, which is lot more information than you have. It is your choice to listen or not.

Something that many of the members here (I'm not including you in this, just making a point) don't understand is the difference between not listening and not agreeing.

In defense of your position, I would agree that you should be careful who you take advice from. But I don't think you can decide merely from a debate. You have to observe someone over time, and notice how consistent he/she is. What I have done many times is to fully listen to someone's advice but decide later how much (if any) of it I will follow.

You seem to like everything to take a lot of time. I'm not directly opposed to this, but I don't see it's necessity.

For example, many people will examine a position in chess for a looooong time, just to notice what I saw immediately, and (more importantly) what I'm sure they also saw immediately; but they doubted.

The most important thing is to listen, absorb, understand . . . don't be a hardhead.

I'm not being a hardhead, however, if I were to listen to and absorb everything everyone tells me, without "passing it through the fire", I let in a huge mound of dirt with each one diamond.

There is a BIG difference between listening and understanding other perspectives and then actually going along with them. Older people can be a great resource if you treat them with respect. Say "yes" with the attitude you show them, and then learn how to filter out what doesn't fit into your goals or life.

But that leaves the amount of knowledge that I gain enitrely up to the other person.

Mentat

Jun7-03, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I think some kids have a problem accepting the role of experience in knowing because they are already determined to be wise without experience.

And you are determined to be wise with experience. Why do you think this is better than my approach (to learn from the experiences of others)?

Imagine, for example, that I was going to die of AIDS very soon. You would, by your reasoning, be denying me even the possibility of ever attaining wisdom, while my concept of wisdom is much more "fair".

Les Sleeth

Jun7-03, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
What exactly seperates me from you?

Not a thing Mentat. I know this is what you fear, being excluded, looked down upon, etc. And I know many adults who do exactly that with kids. I am not one of them and I really disagree with adults who do it. But there is a difference between being equal in potential, and equal in realized potential. The ability to acknowledge the areas where one lacks wisdom is one of the wisest things one can learn.

Originally posted by Mentat
I want to know the truth about wisdom, and (in my experience (which, I grant you, is extremely limited)) one can only find the truth by passing all ideas "through the fire", so to speak. If your idea survives my "fire" (insignificant as it may turn out to be), I will accept it as truth.

Excellent.

Originally posted by Mentat
Know that my attitude is not as you percieved it, but is really a sincere "Mentat" request for wisdom (by which I mean that this is how Mentat learns something he doesn't originally want to accept.

Also excellent, I understand completely. Glad to hear you aren't a pushover about something so important.

Originally posted by Mentat
I now retract it, but ask to be enlightened.

LOL.

Originally posted by Mentat
You seem to like everything to take a lot of time. I'm not directly opposed to this, but I don't see it's necessity.

For example, many people will examine a position in chess for a looooong time, just to notice what I saw immediately, and (more importantly) what I'm sure they also saw immediately; but they doubted.

Chess is different, that can be done with a capable intellect alone. Computers can play chess, but they can't become wise.

Examine your motives very carefully Mentat. Your statement, "You seem to like everything to take a lot of time . . . but I don't see it's necessity" reveals something about why you are resisting. If you don't develop the patience it takes to master all the great things, you will be just another talker, and the world already has far too many of them.

Originally posted by Mentat
And you are determined to be wise with experience. Why do you think this is better than my approach (to learn from the experiences of others)?

Imagine, for example, that I was going to die of AIDS very soon. You would, by your reasoning, be denying me even the possibility of ever attaining wisdom, while my concept of wisdom is much more "fair".

I think you already know that personal experience is the ultimate teacher, and that others' experiences can only serve as a guide to help you figure out what experiences you are going after. But, your own negative experiences with older people acting superior just because they are older (but not so much wiser) makes you want to deny it.

As far as which concept of wisdom is more fair, fairness has nothing to do with it. We are just talking about how things work -- in this case, how wisdom works. It would be nice if you could get it quick, but I have never seen it work that way.

There is a very beautiful but highly misunderstood inner sort of concept known as surrender, which I believe refers to accepting the nature of profound things that cannot be changed and then harmonizing with them. Wisdom is a perfect example of this. It has its own rules and nothing you can do will change that. So if you want wisdom, you must surrender to its "way" and let it teach you.

So I say,and obviously it is up to you to give it your test of fire to decide if I speak accurately, that if you want true wisdom, you have submit to its slow, gradual, experience-bound ways; and if you want to only appear to be wise, then go ahead and get it from books and your intellect alone.

Integral

Jun7-03, 10:04 PM

Once again LWSleeth has hit the nail on the head.

I do not see my participating in this conversation as a demonstration of wisdom. In fact, quite the opposite, every bit of wisdom I possess says stay out of such conversations they can only lead to frustration and no fulfillment.

A lot of the disagreement here comes from a lack of definition of "Wisdom". Just what is it? Can we even come up with a working definition that we all agree to? Without that there is no possible resolution. Any definition I would purpose would include the words "life experience" which, quite naturally would support the views I have already posted.

Mentat, what do you mean when you use the word?

Stephanie

Jun8-03, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
Yeah, you turned on Christmas day didn't you?

I'll be 30 this Christmas Day.

I always enjoy meeting other Christmas babies!

maximus

Jun8-03, 02:04 AM

after nine pages of this conversation, it appears to be quite circular. and i believe what we're missing is an equally shared definition of wisdom. now i will completely argee that some aspects of life can be taught by experience alone. (for example: no one can tell you what it is to be in love) but i believe that wisdom is something greater than this learning from experience. i beleive that wisdom is something deeper, something about understanding something completely.

i will use a crude example to illustrate a point:
in tests, people can learn things from experience. an electric jolt in an item will tell them never to touch it again, but if you told them beforehand the pain that touching it would contain, they probobly would not touch it. how is touching it and learning any different from learning a different way or by watching another touch it and feel pain? (see? very crude)
but still,do you understand my point? i have heard that drinking and driving isn't a wise thing to do, but if i did it and got injured, is it more wise?
it's all understanding. LW: i would ask you to look at mentat's question more carefully. think-what is it that you feel seperates you from him or i? there must be something or we would be in this conversation. do your experiences teach you that much more than than the possibility that we might be able to understand your experiences,and feel feelings similar to what you felt?

Integral

Jun8-03, 03:46 AM

in tests, people can learn things from experience. an electric jolt in an item will tell them never to touch it again, but if you told them beforehand the pain that touching it would contain, they probobly would not touch it. how is touching it and learning any different from learning a different way or by watching another touch it and feel pain? (see? very crude)

Indeed, a significant portion of wisdom is the ability to learn from others mistakes, it is NOT necessary to make every mistake yourself. With that said I would have to ask if wisdom is the lesson learned or the ability to learn? These are very subtle issues, it all comes back to the point that wisdom can not be taught or learned.

I think that it is one of those things that is always just over the hill or around the corner. To attempt to come to grips with it is to lose it. It only comes when you are looking the other way and thinking of something else.

Do not see it as an achievable goal, as it is a life long path. You can appear to be wise one moment and a fool a second later. Life is always throwing us curves, our ability to deal with the twists and turns of life is wisdom.

Perhaps this is why us oldsters are reluctant to grant wisdom on youngsters, they have not yet dealt with the curve balls life is prone to throw. You can never know how you will react until something happens. It is easy to read a book, where the problems are contrived and the solutions obvious. It is different to actually live the problems and suffer the consequenes of failure or sucess. Only when you have proven your ability to deal with life can you earn wisdom.

maximus

Jun8-03, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by maximus
after nine pages of this conversation, it appears to be quite circular. and i believe what we're missing is an equally shared definition of wisdom. now i will completely argee that some aspects of life can be taught by experience alone. (for example: no one can tell you what it is to be in love) but i believe that wisdom is something greater than this learning from experience. i beleive that wisdom is something deeper, something about understanding something completely.

i will use a crude example to illustrate a point:
in tests, people can learn things from experience. an electric jolt in an item will tell them never to touch it again, but if you told them beforehand the pain that touching it would contain, they probobly would not touch it. how is touching it and learning any different from learning a different way or by watching another touch it and feel pain? (see? very crude)
but still,do you understand my point? i have heard that drinking and driving isn't a wise thing to do, but if i did it and got injured, is it more wise?
it's all understanding. LW: i would ask you to look at mentat's question more carefully. think-what is it that you feel seperates you from him or i? there must be something or we would be in this conversation. do your experiences teach you that much more than than the possibility that we might be able to understand your experiences,and feel feelings similar to what you felt?

having said all this i will make the opposite arguement, because in a way i am two sided on this issue.

in my experience (which is relitively short) i have learned some things and i have gained some wisdom. and one of the things i have learned is that some things take time..
i will give an example of a personal experience to clarify:
at the age of 12-14, i thought i knew everything. i thought i had an understanding of the true nature of the universe more than anybody. i felt emotions so strongly that they would (in a sence) control me. by this i mean that my personal beliefs would change to fit the emotion instead of vice-verca. but, at about the age of fifteen, something awakened within me. (i can, in fact, remember the exact moment that this event happened.) (i believe i was running the mile in P.E.[:D])anyways, this thing inside me (which i have lovingly named the Introspective Eye has the sole purpose of examining the one thing that i did not understand in my vast understanding of everything: myself. in an instant everything i held true was destroyed as it searched to the bottom of my 'soul'and found nothing. it was a very sobering feeling looking in myself, and i remember the specific thought that was echoing in my mind: "i am empty".
anyways, long story short this thing happened only when i was ready and for the life of me i couldn't have understood it or summonded it up beforehand. i feared this before it took over. which leads me to my next life lesson: what you fear to become, you usually will. examine your parents, do you see yourself becoming them, or does the thought of it sicken you? the truth is that it is enevitable that someday you will understand everything they did and love them all the more for it. (this hasn't happened to me yet, but i'm sure it will.[;)] )
so i do have respect for you LW Sleeth, and maybe am not the young whipersnapper you think i am!

Les Sleeth

Jun8-03, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by maximus
LW: i would ask you to look at mentat's question more carefully. think-what is it that you feel seperates you from him or i? there must be something or we would be in this conversation. do your experiences teach you that much more than than the possibility that we might be able to understand your experiences,and feel feelings similar to what you felt?

I think Integral's suggestion of defining wisdom a little before we continue is wise [:D] .

I would separate wisdom into two types: mundane and profound. By “mundane” wisdom I mean that understanding of how things function one acquires from working with them for many years. For instance, both sides of my very large family knew how to build houses, and it was always assumed when it was time for one of them to have a house, they would build their own. On weekends usually several family members would go to the latest build to help, and I would go too sometimes. I was always impressed that no matter what little project I'd take on, one of the uncles could show me little secrets of how to do it faster, better, safer, etc. That was "wisdom" they'd picked up from generations of house building.

Before going on to profound wisdom, let's see if anything can be said about wisdom in general yet. You might say that you could read books, and if you were smart enough, could pick up all those little tips my uncles knew without having done any of it. I would not disagree. However, the knowledge you now have in your head from reading is a different type of knowledge than that learned from actually doing. Let me characterize that difference with the terms richness, certainty, and wholeness.

What the intellect does when it understands is to create a model, a mental construct that approximates the aspect of reality it’s trying to represent. It is a mere shell, or a sort of image one maintains. So if, for instance, you had lived in the desert all your life, and people visiting you described their vacation on Samoa, you might have a wonderful vision of it complete with pictures of palm trees you’d seen in magazines, lovely island girls, coconuts, beaches, waves, sunsets on the ocean . . . But then one day you get to go, and even if your vision was perfect, now the quality of richness is added because the flat intellectual concept you had is replaced by a multi-dimensional experience. It becomes part of your memory, and even seeps into your being by shaping your outlook and desires. Also, because you have experienced it, you know for certain such a place exists; it isn’t just a dream or concept, it has been confirmed by your own personal experience and all your memories are now actual, not imagined. Finally, there is what the island is like as a whole which, when one goes there and is part of it, one sees how all the “parts” fit together.

So, a general distinction we might make between intellectual and experiential learning is that the former lacks substance while the latter is full. When its just mental, all the spaces between concepts are empty, there is no real certainty and no real confidence; whatever is there is paper thin. In contrast, that rich understanding, certainty and holistic view amounts to a kind of power that builds in one the more one experiences – you know, you just don’t “think” so. With such a full and powerful understanding as a foundation, one is much more capable of seeing new possibilities and successfully achieving them by knowing were to fit a “part” into the whole, or how to adjust the whole without messing up all the parts. But the mental expert hasn’t really tested all his theories, and so both misses creative opportunities and fails to recognize where something is going to fall short.

So how about profound wisdom. This is a tough one because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of agreement about what’s profound. Some even believe nothing is profound, that everything is mundane. But if there is something(s) which is profound, the same rules apply as with the mundane: one needs experience of the profound to acquire true wisdom. Because it is so much more difficult to experience that, the debates about the profound typically are dominated by mental experts. My personal view is that profound wisdom is predicated on the experience of our true nature that lives at the core of our being. To have that experience, one has to turn one’s attention inward, and learn to feel this core. With enough experience, one might eventually get intimate enough with that inner fullness to say something meaningful about it. Sadly, most people are perfectly willing to preach, write books, and give advice based on studying what others have realized. It might be wisdom, but it isn’t one’s own, and so it lacks the power and specific applicability that comes from actually knowing for oneself.

To at last answer your question, this "separation" you and Mentat are talking about is only about the difference in experiential knowledge between older and younger persons. Most of what youth have to say about mundane or profound is theory. Even if it is insightful theory, it is still untested. Those of us who have lived awhile, and learned, know to be very cautious with theoretical experts. They think they know, but they don't know they know.

The other separation we've discussed is that artificially created by ignorant adults who just want to be on top of anyone they can. You will see as you get older that such people create separation any chance they get, not just with kids. As I have said, I do not believe in condescending, it is in fact one of the few things that gets my anger going every time. If you have something to say, if it makes sense and doesn't run contrary to my experience, then I will accept it as reasonalbe no matter how old you are, or educated, or what your IQ is, or any other of the qualities people use to condescend.

But if you start to act wise without sufficient personal experience to do so, then I am going to resist that too.

maximus

Jun8-03, 12:34 PM

and has anyone thought that maybe the discussion should be moved to Philosopy? we've kind of wondered away from the original topic and we might get more hits there. besides, we could at least get our posts counted that way, which is what everyone wants, right? [:D] [;)]

Les Sleeth

Jun8-03, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by maximus
. . . maybe am not the young whipersnapper you think i am!

LOL! I think you guys are great, to be thinking about things so young. Yet, as you point out, you can see that already you have become wiser than you once were, and if you continue searching, you should continue to grow in wisdom.

However, I still think you are a young whippersnapper . . . [;)]

maximus

Jun8-03, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
\
My personal view is that profound wisdom is predicated on the experience of our true nature that lives at the core of our being. To have that experience, one has to turn one’s attention inward, and learn to feel this core. With enough experience, one might eventually get intimate enough with that inner fullness to say something meaningful about it. Sadly, most people are perfectly willing to preach, write books, and give advice based on studying what others have realized. It might be wisdom, but it isn’t one’s own, and so it lacks the power and specific applicability that comes from actually knowing for oneself.

\

well, now it seems we are changing our definitions of wisdom. it now seems that wisdom (profound wisdom) is the ability to look within and see yourself as you truely are. i know i have this ability. as i've described in my other post "The Introspective Eye" within me has givin me this ability and we've think we've seen Mentat talk something about a similar awakening within himself. (that's what we thought you meant by "Mentat and I"). so apparantly this does not only come through expeince.

and if you have doubt about the truth of my Eye, we (the Eye and the other I) laugh at you! we know our selves. (as hard of a lesson as it may have been to learn ourself, we still do)

Les Sleeth

Jun8-03, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by maximus
well, now it seems we are changing our definitions of wisdom. it now seems that wisdom (profound wisdom) is the ability to look within and see yourself as you truely are. i know i have this ability. as i've described in my other post "The Introspective Eye" within me has givin me this ability and we've think we've seen Mentat talk something about a similar awakening within himself. (that's what we thought you meant by "Mentat and I"). so apparantly this does not only come through expeince.

and if you have doubt about the truth of my Eye, we (the Eye and the other I) laugh at you! we know our selves. (as hard of a lesson as it may have been to learn ourself, we still do)

What if that look within you've done has just scratched the surface of how far you can go. Maybe you can learn to sit quietly and do it, and say you do that for an hour a day for the next 30 years. When you look back to the statement you said today, maybe you will think, "gee, I sure was naive about how deeply a person can dive into the profound." Of course, you will only be able to say that if you get sufficient experience to be able to contrast then with now.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun8-03, 01:35 PM

How's about, there is no proving what aging really does to you, intellectually, emotionally, physically, you just have to live it, the time, to know it.

Fliption

Jun8-03, 04:56 PM

Fliption

Jun8-03, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Then the analogy doesn't apply to wisdom (until proven otherwise).

Let me use the example of "chess wisdom", as it seems pertinent. There are some things that are not taught in chess books, but are rather learned through experience in chess. This is considered "chess wisdom". One of the old masters (such as Kasparov or Reschevskey (my personal favorites)) would know full well that (for example), in a direct attack on the king, the material value of the pieces is not as important as the amount of pieces.

You see? This is a bit of chess wisdom, that one can still learn, even though it took someone else many years of experience to find it.

The analogy applies perfectly. I have not claimed I wasn't wise. [:)]

But I see LWS is doing such a great job of describing this one I'm not needed here.

Mentat

Jun8-03, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Not a thing Mentat.

Thanks, that's nice to know. However, there must be something, otherwise there is no reason for wisdom to be more attainable for you than for me.

I know this is what you fear, being excluded, looked down upon, etc.

Not exactly. You see, this has to do with the opinion other's have of me. That is not my fear. I just don't want them to be right. If it turns out that they are, so be it. But I don't think anyone has made a good enough case for that idea, yet.

And I know many adults who do exactly that with kids. I am not one of them and I really disagree with adults who do it. But there is a difference between being equal in potential, and equal in realized potential. The ability to acknowledge the areas where one lacks wisdom is one of the wisest things one can learn.

With all due respect, you couldn't flatter yourself more. You are assuming the most lofty of positions, the ability to judge another's wisdom (which is the most lofty, according to your own reasoning).

Besides, how can you possibly know how much realized potential I have?

LOL.

I fail to see the humor.

Chess is different, that can be done with a capable intellect alone. Computers can play chess, but they can't become wise.

How do you know that? Again, I remind you, I will not accept assumptions without some sound basis. You cannot tell me, "object A cannot have wisdom, but object B can", without some kind of reasoning to validate it, and expect me to just agree with you.

Examine your motives very carefully Mentat. Your statement, "You seem to like everything to take a lot of time . . . but I don't see it's necessity" reveals something about why you are resisting. If you don't develop the patience it takes to master all the great things, you will be just another talker, and the world already has far too many of them.

And yet again, you say "the patience it takes to master all the great things...", why must it take patience (that's not to say that I'm not going to be patient in my learning, by you seem to think that every great achievement must be the result of patience).

I think you already know that personal experience is the ultimate teacher, and that others' experiences can only serve as a guide to help you figure out what experiences you are going after.

I think that personal experience is just as good as other's experiences, provided one is wise enough to learn from both.

As far as which concept of wisdom is more fair, fairness has nothing to do with it. We are just talking about how things work -- in this case, how wisdom works. It would be nice if you could get it quick, but I have never seen it work that way.

And here you strike at the crux of the matter. I think that your whole concept of wisdom is based (entirely) on inductive reasoning, and that's just not good enough (IMO). BTW, what I mean by "inductive reasoning" is that you are looking at the examples that you have seen in your life, and assuming that there is some underlying principle that applies to all situations.

There is a very beautiful but highly misunderstood inner sort of concept known as surrender, which I believe refers to accepting the nature of profound things that cannot be changed and then harmonizing with them. Wisdom is a perfect example of this. It has its own rules and nothing you can do will change that. So if you want wisdom, you must surrender to its "way" and let it teach you.

Sure, but who's to say that the "way" you believe in is wisdom's "way"?

So I say,and obviously it is up to you to give it your test of fire to decide if I speak accurately, that if you want true wisdom, you have submit to its slow, gradual, experience-bound ways;

I think this point - that aquiring wisdom is always a slow process -already been charred and reduced to steam. Unless you furnish at least some reasoning to substantiate it, it is burnt to a crisp.

and if you want to only appear to be wise, then go ahead and get it from books and your intellect alone.

This, I agree, is wise counsel.

Mentat

Jun8-03, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Integral
I do not see my participating in this conversation as a demonstration of wisdom. In fact, quite the opposite, every bit of wisdom I possess says stay out of such conversations they can only lead to frustration and no fulfillment.

If you can prove what you are saying, it will indeed be worth it, IMO.

Mentat, what do you mean when you use the word?

"Wisdom" is:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT

"Wise" means:

Oxford Dictionary
1 having, showing, or dictated by wisdom. 2 prudent, sensible. 3 having knowledge. 4 suggestive of wisdom

Mentat

Jun8-03, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
What if that look within you've done has just scratched the surface of how far you can go. Maybe you can learn to sit quietly and do it, and say you do that for an hour a day for the next 30 years. When you look back to the statement you said today, maybe you will think, "gee, I sure was naive about how deeply a person can dive into the profound." Of course, you will only be able to say that if you get sufficient experience to be able to contrast then with now.

Of course, he also won't be able to say that if he's right to begin with. Had you ever even considered that possibility?

Mentat

Jun8-03, 09:56 PM

maximus, I don't remember...did you happend to post your age on this thread?

maximus

Jun8-03, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
maximus, I don't remember...did you happend to post your age on this thread?

that i did, mentat. i am 15 years old. (16 in august)

maximus

Jun8-03, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
What if that look within you've done has just scratched the surface of how far you can go. Maybe you can learn to sit quietly and do it, and say you do that for an hour a day for the next 30 years. When you look back to the statement you said today, maybe you will think, "gee, I sure was naive about how deeply a person can dive into the profound." Of course, you will only be able to say that if you get sufficient experience to be able to contrast then with now.

and maybe the same will hold true for you, LW. sit down and think about it.

Mentat

Jun8-03, 10:01 PM

Never mind, maximus, I found it.

Mentat

Jun8-03, 10:04 PM

To draw the attention away from me (I didn't want it there in the first place), we see that maximus is 15 years old. Can anyone, with a shred of wisdom, deny that there has been wisdom in his posts. Not to put maximus on the spotlight either, as I've said the same thing about Ruroumi Kenshin, RageSk8, and a few others.

maximus

Jun8-03, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
To draw the attention away from me (I didn't want it there in the first place), we see that maximus is 15 years old. Can anyone, with a shred of wisdom, deny that there has been wisdom in his posts. Not to put maximus on the spotlight either, as I've said the same thing about Ruroumi Kenshin, RageSk8, and a few others.

thank you, mentat. i'm flattered. [:)]

Fliption

Jun8-03, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Mentat

With all due respect, you couldn't flatter yourself more. You are assuming the most lofty of positions, the ability to judge another's wisdom (which is the most lofty, according to your own reasoning).

Besides, how can you possibly know how much realized potential I have?
I fail to see the humor.

How do you know that? Again, I remind you, I will not accept assumptions without some sound basis. You cannot tell me, "object A cannot have wisdom, but object B can", without some kind of reasoning to validate it, and expect me to just agree with you.

Hmm, me thinks Mentat's mind is made up. I don't think this particular topic on this thread should go much further. It is obvious that my computer (which can be much more advanced than the chess playing ones) is not wise. This line of debate seems a bit hard-headed to me.

maximus

Jun8-03, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
Hmm, me thinks Mentat's mind is made up. I don't think this particular topic on this thread should go much further. It is obvious that my computer (which can be much more advanced than the chess playing ones) is not wise. This line of debate seems a bit hard-headed to me.

i don't know, fliption. we might be close to a mutual understanding here. anyways, LW seems to be a little stubborn too.[;)]

Mentat

Jun9-03, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Fliption
Hmm, me thinks Mentat's mind is made up. I don't think this particular topic on this thread should go much further. It is obvious that my computer (which can be much more advanced than the chess playing ones) is not wise. This line of debate seems a bit hard-headed to me.

First off, this is not my main line of argument. LW Sleeth has yet to directly (and open-mindedly) counter that line of argument.

Secondly, "it's obvious that my computer is not wise"? Surely you realize the closed-minded nature of this statement. Besides, did you happen to read the definitions of Wisdom?

Mentat

Jun9-03, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by maximus
i don't know, fliption. we might be close to a mutual understanding here. anyways, LW seems to be a little stubborn too.[;)]

Not so much stubborn, as convinced. It becomes a struggle (on his part) to "help me understand" his point, when in fact, he should be trying to convince me of his part.

maximus

Jun9-03, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by maximus
i don't know, fliption. we might be close to a mutual understanding here.

i retract my statement. we're getting no where. and this is starting to get a little below the belt.

maximus

Jun9-03, 11:45 AM

Les Sleeth

Jun9-03, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by maximus
what little wisdom i have tells me that such pointlessly agressive and mean statements are immature and not really called for. i think we should all take a deep breath and try to approach this subject with a little less anger and resentment.

Sorry Maximus . . . I just came back to delete my post but it was too late, you'd quoted me. None of what I said was directed at you however, it was my frustration with Mentat.

Still, I should just drop out of this conversation rather than get mad.

Mentat

Jun9-03, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
The "lofty" position I assume is that of a person who has lived, worked, educated himself and survived a lot longer than a 14 year old who thinks he should be considered equal in wisdom when he can't even take care of himself without mommy and daddy's help.

You obviously don't know anything about me, but that's not your fault. I would simply ask that you not make any more assumptions.

You don't know much of anything yet, you just think you know . . . boring. [zz)]

If you think a computer can be wise, you really are clueless.

Well, now that we've come to blind insults, without any attempt at reasoning, I suppose the conversation will get nowhere, as you apparently haven't the slightest idea why you believe the way you do, you just do, and you think everyone else should believe the same way too.

Convince you????? Do you know how many words I've written, and how many hours I spent thinking about this trying to help you understand it?

That's what the problem is. You've been trying to make me understand, when you should have been proving your side of the debate. There's a huge difference. I could have spent all of this time trying to "help you understand" my side of the debate, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere, because it starts from the assumption that if someone disagrees with you, there must be some misunderstanding. Don't you see how closed-minded that is? Haven't you seen how ugly it gets with Alexander in the Philosophy Forum? It got ugly because he was convinced that, if someone disagreed with him, they must not understand, and needed to be "educated".

Mentat, you aren't going to accept anything on this subject because you are having too much fun playing here with the adults pretending to be wise. How wise is it to prefer the image of wisdom over the real thing?

And how wise is it to assume that the fact that your matter has decayed for a longer time than mine, and your health is deteriorating faster than mine, and you've had more time to make more mistakes than I have (and more mistakes than I will probably ever make) makes you wiser?

Without experience you ain't gettin' wisdom!

Without listening to my side of the argument, you ain't gettin' past your original assumption.

And you will never convince anybody that you have it who has lived awhile either. Continuing to insist just proves how little you know about things.

And what are you doing? Are you not insisting that you have wisdom - and not just that, but that you have wisdom that far surpasses mine?

There is one way you could be very wise right now, and that is to be humble. But you can't even master that first step

Neither can you! In this kind of debate, I become a mirror of your attitude. If you'll look back, you'll notice that I didn't even begin to close my mind to your repetitious parroting of your opinion, unil long after you had closed your mind to my reasoning (which is probably how you started out here anyway).

so I don't know why you think you are going to make it any further.

More importantly, I don't think you even recognize your need to "go further", and will thus never attain the wisdom that you think is owed you by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

maximus

Jun9-03, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Sorry Maximus . . . I just came back to delete my post but it was too late, you'd quoted me. None of what I said was directed at you however, it was my frustration with Mentat.

Still, I should just drop out of this conversation rather than get mad.

nor was my statement necesarily directed at you. we all are getting a little frusterated and should just calm down. (and i really do appresiate the post)

Zargawee

Jun10-03, 04:30 AM

I'm almost 17 ( I will be after less than 3 mounths )

jonnylane

Jun10-03, 08:04 AM

21

i dont want to be any older, either.

If anyone knows a good anti ageing cream or lotion (that actually stops you ageing) please post it here!

Ivan Seeking

Jun10-03, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by jonnylane
21

i dont want to be any older, either.

If anyone knows a good anti ageing cream or lotion (that actually stops you ageing) please post it here!

Sunscreen; SPF15. [:D]

Another God

Jun10-03, 09:00 AM

That stops you aging!!?!?! Wow, my search is over it would seem. And here I thought that it just protected your skin from the harmful effects of UV radiation!!!!

plus

Jun10-03, 09:19 AM

Yes, I think that it reduces effects upon the skin which have the effect of making people look older than what they are. It does not stop aging, or even reduce it - it just makes it look like the rate of aging is slowed.

Ivan Seeking

Jun10-03, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Another God
That stops you aging!!?!?! Wow, my search is over it would seem. And here I thought that it just protected your skin from the harmful effects of UV radiation!!!!

Actually, yes; at least in part. See any dermatological site for information about the damage done to your skin due to exposure to the sun. The effects UV are part of what we perceive as the skin aging.

Edit: whoops. You wanted a complete anti-aging formula. In that case, along with the external use of sunscreen, just take a tablespoon of Cod Liver Oil daily that will do it! [:D]

jonnylane

Jun10-03, 09:58 AM

all of this is great, but i need to make it so that i never have another birthday.

and so that i can still steal road signs and feel ok anout it.

[a)]

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun10-03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by mentat

That's what the problem is. You've been trying to make me understand, when you should have been proving your side of the debate.

Mentat, the only person who can prove anything to you, is you, but only when you acccept the evidence.

But, the only evidence, that will ever be available to you, is when/after YOU (have) pass(ed) the time.

The only person who will ever be able to prove this to you, is you!

You will end up proving to yourself, most likeley, that is of course, if you truly do find/are wise/dom.

All anyone else can ever do is attempt to impart their own understanding, there is no 'proving' anything, other then 'just subjective attestament' to it.

But I agree, that you do seem rather educated for the age you profess, as does maximus, and you can be intellectually frustrating to some people, some time, so can I, it's not always that difficult, it's not always a critisizm, cause as I have seen, you recognise it too, so that helps everyone.

I'm still 47 though. That does mean something.

(and some months more, now)

Ethereal Dream

Jun10-03, 12:37 PM

and completely 'full of wisdom'. I will be no wiser by the time I turn 11 because the passage of time does not bring wisdom.

jonnylane

Jun10-03, 12:55 PM

not really true

you can't gain wisdom without the passage of time. If time stood still would you ever become more wise?

I know this because I am older (and therefore more wise)

hee hee

[6)]

Another God

Jun10-03, 05:53 PM

I think wisdom is gained with time, but I also think some people are inherently more wise than others, and so are able to gain more wisdom over that time...so perhaps this is a matter of defining what we are talking about. I guess I believe there is something which we are born as which isn't gained over time...and that is our ability to open our mind to critically analyse new concepts and accept or deny them appropriately. Some might call that wisdom...

Anyway, as for Mr. Robin Parsons post to Mentat: Mentat, my only advice on this topic for you is the same advice I have for everyone else. Stop trying to think of it as your duty to educate everyone else, and start thinking of it as your duty to educate yourself. What you do is you explain your belief/idea as best as you can to other people, and then let them try to convince you otherwise.

Don't worry if they don't believe you, just make sure you understand (and tell them if it is appropriate) why you don't believe them. (you don't have to make up your mind on the spot. Just give their position reasonable consideration. They do have their own reasons for believing it after all...)

Integral

Jun10-03, 08:32 PM

"Wisdom" is:
quote:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT

"Wise" means:
quote:

Oxford Dictionary
1 having, showing, or dictated by wisdom. 2 prudent, sensible. 3 having knowledge. 4 suggestive of wisdom

Does a human being exist which does not fulfill some facet of these definitions?

Wisdom is one of those concepts which cannot be captured by a simple dictionary definition. Had I known, Mentat, that you needed a dictionary definition this conversation would not have taken place. I assumed that you had a deeper knowledge, as you have claimed. Clearly this is not the case. You will find, that as you age, you will adopt your own working definition of such words, which give such concepts a deeper personal meaning then can be found in a dictionary. I guess you are not there yet.

Wisdom is one of those things that is different for different stages of life, what is wise for a 5 year old may not be so for a 50 yr old. Youth is for learning, until you have raised children of your own you can not appreciate the rate at which infants are capable of learning, while adults can still learn and should never stop learning, children are blank slates waiting to soak up information. For you to assume that you have wisdom equal to that of an adult is not really displaying the wisdom a 15yr old needs, in fact just the opposite, such a judgment is foolish. Wisdom, at your stage of life it to grasp at every source of knowledge available. For you, this means listening to both good and bad information. Indeed, you need to be learning to filter information but be careful in filtering out the wheat with the chafe. How without some experience can you know the difference? Do you expect to get this from a text book? Or perhaps you should take the word of someone? Do you see the dilemma? If you automatically choose not to listen to adults simply because you have convinced yourself of your personal wisdom you are making a big mistake. Far from being wise, this is the action of a fool.

It is not clear to me what it is you wish me to prove? Do you want me to prove that what I write is indeed what I belief? Do you think that these matters of philosophy need a mathematical style proof to validate them? Why is it that I am expected to prove what I say while you are not? What proof of your beliefs have you provided? Once again you make statements that are not indicative of wisdom.

maximus

Jun10-03, 09:01 PM

in a final effort to create a mutual understanding i will restate what i believe to be true in this subject:

i am willing to say that some wisdom can only be gained through time (no, not even through time-through certain experience), but that the basic (and also maybe most useful/profound) requires nothing to be gained execpt an observant mind that is willing to learn. i think it is perfectly possible for a person to become wise at a younge age, but that generally your wisdom increases with age. (not true for all cases) (yet to be proven) (patent pending)

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 06:47 PM

in a final effort to create a mutual understanding i will restate what i believe to be true in this subject:Good luck !

i am willing to say that some wisdom can only be gained through time (no, not even through time-through certain experience),…Experience requires time.

…but that the basic (and also maybe most useful/profound) requires nothing to be gained execpt an observant mind that is willing to learn…Learning requires time.

…i think it is perfectly possible for a person to become wise at a younge age, but that generally your wisdom increases with age. (not true for all cases) (yet to be proven) (patent pending)Well, I think I can find the most agreement in this last statement made, but I want to add a few more of my own comments to this thread too;
I do not believe that anyone is born wise. If someone here believes that newborns and infants are wise, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. And why is this so?
The way I see it, the odds of someone being wise are much increased if that person is old (obviously there are old idiots, just look at me [:D], so I think it should be understood that nothing is written in stone here). Nevertheless, T I M E, and everything that happens over the course of same, obviously must have a place in the wisdom equation. Having a keen intellect is an advantage that can no doubt compensate for a lack of age, but I don’t think you can rightly throw out what holds true in general owing to a small number of exceptions. Maybe the exceptions to the rule will grow exceedingly wise by the TIME they are old, but it will nevertheless take time. Wisdom, knowledge, whateverthehellelseyouwanttorelateitto, all require time. You didn’t pop out of the fox-hole wise and as smart as you may be it will still require the passage of time for you to learn.

The rule stands.

Most young people don’t know a hot rock from a hole in the ground. It’s nothing personal whatsoever; they just haven’t lived long enough yet. In another decade or two, you will likely look back and see yourself in a completely different light then how you imagine yourself now. You may recognize mistakes made in your youth that were out of your control due to your immaturity. Age can bring with it a vantage point, like climbing to the top of a hill, from which you can look downward and backward and see things that you might have missed along the way. But, it takes time to climb.

I think Mentat may feel looked down upon and relegated to an automatic ‘inferior’ status by older people, and it is true that young people are often dismissed in such a way. However, it is by actually taking the time to speak with and getting to know individuals that we are able to determine whether they have anything of consequence to say or not. I might have suspicions that I wouldn’t find a young person worthy of giving sage advice, but if what came out of their mouth seemed worthwhile I would listen and consider it…I would also begin to lower my ‘bubble-gummer’ shield a bit the next time we spoke. [:D]

However wise a person might be today, they are likely to be even wiser tomorrow.
-BH

maximus

Jun11-03, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Experience requires time.

Learning requires time.

but how much time? could one, if one were paying attention well enough, be wise after, say, fifteen years of experience?

However wise a person might be today, they are likely to be even wiser tomorrow.
-BH

agreed.

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 07:12 PM

but how much time? The more, the better.
could one, if one were paying attention well enough, be wise after, say, fifteen years of experience? Not as broad a wisdom as at thirty.

maximus

Jun11-03, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Not as broad a wisdom as at thirty.

ahhh, but by what standards? could someone at 15 have equal to greater wisdom than another at thirty, regardless of whether this person himself would be wiser when he turns 30?

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by maximus
ahhh, but by what standards? could someone at 15 have equal to greater wisdom than another at thirty, regardless of whether this person himself would be wiser when he turns 30? He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to. In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

maximus

Jun11-03, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to.

this is probobly true, but still, you agree that it is possible to be wiser in maybe (using a previously introduced term) more profound areas?

In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

generally this is true, as generally a thirty year old is wiser than a fifteen year old. but i'd say it is still possible for the 10 year old to be wiser. (supposing he was even more intelligent and willing to learn than the 15 year old, in which case he is also wiser than the 30 year old person)

but i would agree with your earlier statment that there is a limit to the age at which wisdom can possibly be aquired. (at least infancy [:D] )

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 07:39 PM

...that knows its own father. [:D]

(it's easier to know who your mom is, especially come breast feeding time)

...but still, you agree that it is possible to be wiser in maybe (using a previously introduced term) more profound areas? I have no problem with agreeing to that, though we each have our own subjective ideas regarding what is considered 'profound'.

generally this is true, as generally a thirty year old is wiser than a fifteen year old. but i'd say it is still possible for the 10 year old to be wiser. (supposing he was even more intelligent and willing to learn than the 15 year old, in which case he is also wiser than the 30 year old person) I wouldn't rule anything out, but I would say that it is quite unlikely nevertheless. Imagine if people lived to be 10,000 years old. Were I on a search for a wise man, I would seek out an old fogey in his nine-thousands rather than a young person in his teens.

maximus

Jun11-03, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
I have no problem with agreeing to that, though we each have our own subjective ideas regarding what is considered 'profound'.

agreed.

I wouldn't rule anything out, but I would say that it is quite unlikely nevertheless. Imagine if people lived to be 10,000 years old. Were I on a search for a wise man, I would seek out an old fogey in his nine-thousands rather than a young person in his teens.

well there you have it, we agree with everything we've said. generally, age will increase with age, but that does not rule out the possiblility of wisdom at a younger age. (though i dount LW Sleeth will agree with this)

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 09:41 PM

Well, let's just say there is wise, and then there is Wise. I think it is important to consider the context in which the word is used. There are people I have known who flocked to a certain young guru. I never investigated the matter, so I don't know what all the hoopla was about. What I do know is that a good number of adults thought this kid was full of wisdom, and maybe he was, though I tended to believe at the time that the adults were likely full of something other than wisdom.

maximus

Jun11-03, 09:44 PM

for the record, can you specify the difference between wise and Wise?

maximus

Jun11-03, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
There are people I have known who flocked to a certain young guru. I never investigated the matter, so I don't know what all the hoopla was about. What I do know is that a good number of adults thought this kid was full of wisdom, and maybe he was, though I tended to believe at the time that the adults were likely full of something other than wisdom.

and who is this young guru?

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 09:46 PM

I don't remember his name, but it was back in the 1970's and I think he was from india. I'll see what I can dig up.

maximus

Jun11-03, 09:58 PM

well, before you do that, do you have an answer for my above question. (above my above question, i mean)

Saint

Jun11-03, 10:17 PM

I am 31 ------- feel very old ![:(]

Integral

Jun11-03, 10:37 PM

Maximus,
You speak of wisdom as if where a measurable quanity. I am sorry, that is a pretty silly notion. Dismiss any ideas that wisdom, unless you are happy with Mentat's dictionary definition, is something that you seek out. You seek knowledge, you gain wisdom. Or as I said before you EARN wisdom. That is what separates knowledge from wisdom.

You cannot compare wisdom as you do years of school or books read. You cannot rate degrees of wisdom, nor can you even claim wisdom for yourself. In my mind wisdom is something that can only be recognized in you by your associates in life. As soon as you proclaim yourself to be wise you reveal yourself to be a fool.

BoulderHead

Jun11-03, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by maximus
for the record, can you specify the difference between wise and Wise? Well, what I think is that you wish to lead me into proving a point, and if this is what you are doing then it would not be Wise for me to continue in this thread.

Now do you understand the difference?

maximus

Jun11-03, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Maximus,
You speak of wisdom as if where a measurable quanity. I am sorry, that is a pretty silly notion. Dismiss any ideas that wisdom, unless you are happy with Mentat's dictionary definition, is something that you seek out. You seek knowledge, you gain wisdom. Or as I said before you EARN wisdom. That is what separates knowledge from wisdom.

You cannot compare wisdom as you do years of school or books read. You cannot rate degrees of wisdom, nor can you even claim wisdom for yourself. In my mind wisdom is something that can only be recognized in you by your associates in life. As soon as you proclaim yourself to be wise you reveal yourself to be a fool.

wisdom must, to some degree, be measurable. otherwise, how is it that someone can specify one person as being wise and another as not being wise? what is the distinction?

maximus

Jun11-03, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Well, what I think is that you wish to lead me into proving a point, and if this is what you are doing then it would not be Wise for me to continue in this thread.

i am not attemting to drive any point out of your statments, i only wonder what the difference between the two is, because i think it may be crusial to building an understanding in this the disscusion.

Now do you understand the difference?

no, i'm sorry. any subtle point you were trying to make has eluded me.

Fliption

Jun12-03, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
First off, this is not my main line of argument. LW Sleeth has yet to directly (and open-mindedly) counter that line of argument.

LWS has yet to respond to "what" line of argument? If this is not your line of argument then what line is it that he hasn't responded to?

Secondly, "it's obvious that my computer is not wise"? Surely you realize the closed-minded nature of this statement. Besides, did you happen to read the definitions of Wisdom? [/B]

Well pardon me. I wasn't approaching this discussion in this way. If you want to have a discussion along these lines then this topic needs to be moved to the philosophy forum. I interpreted this conversation (in the General forum) to be about the common understanding and usefullness of wisdom. In this common usage, the word wisdom would be meaningless if we were going to leave my PC open as a candidate. In this context, I don't think anyone would agree that my pc is wise. But if you want to claim that this is closed minded then you are either being hard headed or this topic belongs in the philosophy forum.

maximus

Jun12-03, 12:09 AM

i recomended (jokingly) that this should be moved to the philosophy forum a long time ago.

maximus

Jun12-03, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Fliption
But if you want to claim that this is closed minded then you are either being hard headed or this topic belongs in the philosophy forum.

but wait! are you saying that one should be closed-minded in general discussion?

Fliption

Jun12-03, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by maximus
but wait! are you saying that one should be closed-minded in general discussion?

No. I'm saying the objective and therefore the standard for deciding such things is different in the general forum.

BoulderHead

Jun12-03, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by maximus
...no, i'm sorry. any subtle point you were trying to make has eluded me. How do I make you understand, grasshopper?

I think I'm going to be unable to make progress beyond what I've already said. In the end, what I deem as wise and what you deem as wise may be two different things entirely.

You have acknowledged that time, and hence age, are good general guidelines to go with, and this was all that I really wanted to say. To keep a clipboard and run through a checklist, adding up an experience here and another over there, then summing up the results at the bottom and proclaiming oneself likely to be wise is just not what I'm interested in doing.

I do not claim to be wise, nor do I claim to be an intellectual. I am not interested in wearing a label, and if I were I would much sooner call myself an idiot than a wise man. I believe that my years have taught me to recognize wisdom in others, regardless of the persons age. I also know that most young people are anything but wise. They are inexperienced, reckless, and often driven more by their hormones than their minds. I was just like that once, this is all a part of being human. I will take sage advice where I find it, though I have to acknowledge that I've found it most often in older people.

Integral

Jun12-03, 02:25 AM

wisdom must, to some degree, be measurable. otherwise, how is it that someone can specify one person as being wise and another as not being wise? what is the distinction?
Why must it be measureable?

Wisdom is recognized in others, not yourself. This is irregardless of age.

TENYEARS

Jun12-03, 10:37 AM

Wisdom when witnessed in others is a reflection of yourself or how would you know the difference. Problem with these types of posts is instead of understanding the intrinsic nature of the post, people scoff it up and attribute it as wisdom. This type of understanding is false and does not stand up to the fire.

I had a post in old PF in the slowing of time with audacity dan. I would not post exactly what it was, but AD was close. Next thing I know I witnessed the same logic which was not posted priorly on the forum being used in other places. I know it was not original or completely understood by nature of other posts.

If tomarrow science said that God exists, or the moon was made of swiss cheese or bigfoot was a reality or that slick really did'nt breath in would this be considered wisdom if you read it and stored it in memory? No the only thing you know is that it was said. Belief. This is what keeps me from moving. This circle.

Yet last summer I had a vision which I know is going to come to pass and I do not understand how or why or what degree only that it will. I do not know if it will be as a result of talking on this forum or with poeple or a combination of things.

The purpose is to show that there is a reality which exists that is in accordance with physics and the natural world. This will happen, I just do not know how. Knowing in an unknowing.

I was going to ask the question is there anyone interested in proving such a thing and suddenly found myself in a fishtank. As if it would be that easy or reveal it's path to me in that manner. That is the difference between wisdom and not. Life for the most part is not in boxes, it is what it is and what that is is for us to discover as human beings.

Les Sleeth

Jun12-03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by maximus
for the record, could you state the difference between wise and Wise . . .how is it that someone can specify one person as being wise and another as not being wise? what is the distinction?

So Maximus, can I assume you didn't like or agree with my efforts to define wisdom, and draw a distinction between the two types? To make sure you are still unsatisified with those explanations, let me reiterate.

First, in general I have been defining wisdom as (and I believe this is what others have been saying too) experienced-based learning.

This is to be distinquished from intellectual learning which takes place through study and thought alone. So, for example, you might study law in books and have a brilliant understanding of it, but never become wise in law until you start practicing law. How wise someone gets depends on how open and dedicated one is to learning while doing.

I went on to try to give you a sense of some of the ways the knowledge you now have in your head from reading and thinking is a different type of knowledge than that learned from actually doing. I explained that the intellect only creates a model, a mental construct that approximates the aspect of reality it’s trying to represent, whereas the experience of doing is a multi-dimensional experience, which I characterized with the terms richness, certainty, and wholeness. I suggested that the rich understanding, certainty and holistic view amounts to a kind of power that builds in one the more one experiences – you know, you just don’t “think” so.

Second, the I suggested for the wise-Wise distinction separating wisdom into two types: mundane and profound. By “mundane” wisdom I mean that understanding of how things function one acquires from working with them for many years. Regarding profound wisdom (or Wise, as Boulderhead put it), I said that was hard to explain since there isn't a lot of agreement about what’s profound. But that if there is something which is profound, the same rules apply as with the mundane: one needs experience of the profound to acquire true wisdom.

Whether you believe there is anything beyond the mundane or not (and therefore making "Wise" possible), at least we should be at the point in this discussion where we are clear why an older person won't accept a young person can be wise, especially one still living at home. It's because we are defining wisdom as experienced-based learning, and since youth haven't had time for much life experience, they also cannot have much wisdom.

It is no slight to you, and says nothing about how much wiser than all of us you will become when you do gain life experience. That is what I meant when I said to Mentat that there is difference between potential and realized potential. I mean, if you redefine wisdom to include the inexperienced, then wisdom ends up meaning nothing.

So, if you have to live to get it, then why fight it? Get on with living!

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun12-03, 02:35 PM

Lets try this, one of the greatest gifts that I have gotten, in my life, (aside from my life which is the first and greatest one) was the knowledge of the "Truth about myself".

It took until I was in my thirties till that happened, and I had had to face some simple realities, like my ability to be "intellectually obstinent", and other negative qualities (positive ones too) that I needed to recognize as a part of me before I could realize that simple truth.

It is a gift!, as it enables me to, in many cases, see "The truth in others", as I can distinguish the difference between 'them' and me, more easily.

But to find that, (receive it actually) you must employ the right tools of self investigation, and, you must be willing to face up to the cold hard truth about yourself in as un-varnished a fashion as it will be presented to you.

Look for the truth, and it will find you, but will you be prepared to accept it? recognize it?

A friend told me an expression, when I was 25, when I was ~35 that expression returned into my head one day, after having just gone through a tasking life trial, and WOW, it made sense to me then as it had never made sense to me at 25, even though, at 25, I had known all the words, understood what they meant, understood what the expression endevoured to tell me, but I just didn't have the life experaince to recognize it till ten years later.

What a revelation that was!

Mentat

Jun12-03, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Does a human being exist which does not fulfill some facet of these definitions?

That's the point. There is no evidence that proves to me (so far) that wisdom doesn't exist in all human beings, regardless of their age.

Wisdom is one of those concepts which cannot be captured by a simple dictionary definition. Had I known, Mentat, that you needed a dictionary definition this conversation would not have taken place.

You were the one who asked for a definition of wisdom. I assumed that a dictionary would carry more weight than my own opinion.

I assumed that you had a deeper knowledge, as you have claimed. Clearly this is not the case. You will find, that as you age, you will adopt your own working definition of such words, which give such concepts a deeper personal meaning then can be found in a dictionary. I guess you are not there yet.

I have my own definition of wisdom, it just happens to agree with this dictionary's definition. So I presented the one with more recognizable credentials (remember, it is my ability to understand what wisdom really is that is brought into question by LW Sleeth and you).

Wisdom is one of those things that is different for different stages of life, what is wise for a 5 year old may not be so for a 50 yr old. Youth is for learning, until you have raised children of your own you can not appreciate the rate at which infants are capable of learning, while adults can still learn and should never stop learning, children are blank slates waiting to soak up information. For you to assume that you have wisdom equal to that of an adult is not really displaying the wisdom a 15yr old needs, in fact just the opposite, such a judgment is foolish.

Why? It is your assumption that dictates that wisdom must come in stages for every human being. You haven't proved anything, and to post your assumptions as though they were the obvious truth, without providing proof, is truly foolish (no offense).

Wisdom, at your stage of life it to grasp at every source of knowledge available. For you, this means listening to both good and bad information. Indeed, you need to be learning to filter information but be careful in filtering out the wheat with the chafe. How without some experience can you know the difference? Do you expect to get this from a text book? Or perhaps you should take the word of someone? Do you see the dilemma?

You are saying that I shouldn't except someone's word on what is wise and what is not. You are also trying to explain wisdom to me. You have thus disqualified yourself (along with everyone else).

If you automatically choose not to listen to adults simply because you have convinced yourself of your personal wisdom you are making a big mistake. Far from being wise, this is the action of a fool.

But I do listen to adults, I just don't take them as some sort of "final authority", and I don't take their words as though they had more wisdom than that of a child, unless I see some reason to. King Solomon was very young when he became king, yet he is still considered one of the wisest men who every lived.

It is not clear to me what it is you wish me to prove?

That your view of wisdom is the correct one.

Why is it that I am expected to prove what I say while you are not?

Because I am not posting an opinion, you are. I am posting my lack of opinion and wish to be enlightened.

What proof of your beliefs have you provided? Once again you make statements that are not indicative of wisdom.

If the fact that I have not substantiated my stance is proof of lack of wisdom, then you must also be unwise. If, however, you start to realize that I am not stuck on an opinion, and merely wish to understand what wisdom really is (not just someone's opinion, no matter how old they are), then you will understand what I mean when I ask for "proof".

Mentat

Jun12-03, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Learning requires time.

But not everyone requires the same amount of time. I could not have learned anything, if I hadn't lived for some period of time. However, I know more, on cerain subjects, than many people who have had much more time to learn about them.

Well, I think I can find the most agreement in this last statement made, but I want to add a few more of my own comments to this thread too;
I do not believe that anyone is born wise. If someone here believes that newborns and infants are wise, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Unless, of course, we can agree that wisdom has to do with one's open-mindedness, in which case an infant is - in fact - wise.

The rule stands.

Most young people don’t know a hot rock from a hole in the ground. It’s nothing personal whatsoever; they just haven’t lived long enough yet.

But what if someone teaches them the difference? Then they needn't live a long time to gain the knowledge, they had it when they were young.

In another decade or two, you will likely look back and see yourself in a completely different light then how you imagine yourself now. You may recognize mistakes made in your youth that were out of your control due to your immaturity. Age can bring with it a vantage point, like climbing to the top of a hill, from which you can look downward and backward and see things that you might have missed along the way. But, it takes time to climb.

Yet some are much better climbers than others.

I think Mentat may feel looked down upon and relegated to an automatic ‘inferior’ status by older people, and it is true that young people are often dismissed in such a way.

I think Mentat will let you analyze him in the third-person this one time [s(].

However, it is by actually taking the time to speak with and getting to know individuals that we are able to determine whether they have anything of consequence to say or not. I might have suspicions that I wouldn’t find a young person worthy of giving sage advice, but if what came out of their mouth seemed worthwhile I would listen and consider it…I would also begin to lower my ‘bubble-gummer’ shield a bit the next time we spoke. [:D]

Then you are wiser than many older people I have met.

Mentat

Jun12-03, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to. In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

Yes, but that's dodging the issue. It is the apparent opinion of many members here, that wisdom must come with much more age than 15 years, and thus the reasoning that a 15-year-old can be as wise as a 30-year-old is in direct conflict with the opinion of many members here.

Mentat

Jun12-03, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Maximus,
You speak of wisdom as if where a measurable quanity. I am sorry, that is a pretty silly notion.

You were going to leave it at that, weren't you? How can you possibly be satisfied with just stating your opinion like that? How can you expect the one seeing you opinion to just accept it, without proof?

Knowledge can be measured, Understanding can be measured, so why can't Wisdom (according to your reasoining)?

Dismiss any ideas that wisdom, unless you are happy with Mentat's dictionary definition, is something that you seek out. You seek knowledge, you gain wisdom. Or as I said before you EARN wisdom. That is what separates knowledge from wisdom.

And what grants you this wisdom, once you have "earned" it?

You cannot compare wisdom as you do years of school or books read. You cannot rate degrees of wisdom, nor can you even claim wisdom for yourself. In my mind wisdom is something that can only be recognized in you by your associates in life. As soon as you proclaim yourself to be wise you reveal yourself to be a fool.

Then why should one accept that your reasoning is wise, as that would proclaim you a fool (by your own reasoning). No offense is intended, I'm just trying to understand, and having someone state that it is impossible for it to be explained to me is unacceptable.

Mentat

Jun12-03, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Fliption
LWS has yet to respond to "what" line of argument? If this is not your line of argument then what line is it that he hasn't responded to?

I am passing LW's concept of wisdom "through the fire", so to speak, as I've already mentioned. He hasn't been able to escape my reasoning, but has been restating his opinion, in different ways, assuming (as did Alexander in other threads) that my disagreement was an evidence of some misunderstanding.

Well pardon me.

I didn't mean to rebuke you, just making an observation. Forgive me, please, if I have offended.

I interpreted this conversation (in the General forum) to be about the common understanding and usefullness of wisdom. In this common usage, the word wisdom would be meaningless if we were going to leave my PC open as a candidate. In this context, I don't think anyone would agree that my pc is wise.

Alright, then one must break free of the "common" understanding, in order to be wise, mustn't they?

But if you want to claim that this is closed minded then you are either being hard headed or this topic belongs in the philosophy forum.

I see. Alright then, maybe I'll start a thread in the Philosophy Forum.

BoulderHead

Jun12-03, 04:10 PM

quote:

Originally posted by BoulderHead
He could be wiser in some areas and less wise in others. He may, for instance, have never been exposed to all that the 30 year old had been exposed to. In any event, it still took fifteen years to get were this individual was, so I would figure that a 15 year old would tend to be more wise than a 10 year old, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by Mentat;
Yes, but that's dodging the issue. It is the apparent opinion of many members here, that wisdom must come with much more age than 15 years, and thus the reasoning that a 15-year-old can be as wise as a 30-year-old is in direct conflict with the opinion of many members here.

I wasn’t trying to dodge the issue at all. My point has been all along that there are some things that youth, even youth with a keen intellect, will not be able to compensate for. Even in youth it has still taken time to learn and to grow, and hence the connection to wisdom and the passage of time. How many teenagers seek out 5-year olds for council because they believe that age isn’t relevant in this matter? What I thought I was seeing happening was knowledge and wisdom being intermixed, and a ‘checklist’ road to wisdom being applied. I think that is not the way to approach the issue, and it makes me think of an argument about being ‘grown’;

Are you grown?
Yes, even infants are grown. They grew a little yesterday and so they know about growing, having already grown. Some infants have even grown more rapidly than others, etc, etc.

No matter how fast you learn (or grow), the process still takes time. The more time, the better, regardless of the rate of development.

I cannot speak for the other members, only for myself. It should be clear by this time that we can all have our own take on this wisdom issue. You spoke of infants and open mindedness relating to possibly being a part of wisdom, but after reading the dictionary definition you provided as representing your understanding I see little or no room for consideration of open mindedness in infancy playing a part of this and therefore I would say that bringing it up is more of a dodge on your part.

I remember that young guru now; He was/is the guru Maharaji

He was probably just a wise-*** kid that knew how to sucker the adults [:D]

maximus

Jun12-03, 04:20 PM

Wisdom is one of those things that is different for different stages of life, what is wise for a 5 year old may not be so for a 50 yr old. Youth is for learning, until you have raised children of your own you can not appreciate the rate at which infants are capable of learning, while adults can still learn and should never stop learning, children are blank slates waiting to soak up information. For you to assume that you have wisdom equal to that of an adult is not really displaying the wisdom a 15yr old needs, in fact just the opposite, such a judgment is foolish.

but don't you see? until you abandon this assumtion, anything we say (whether in actuality it is wise or not) you will never believe to be wisdom. if you walk into this conversaion knowing that we have no wisdom, nothing we say will sway you otherwise because to you it's only the ramblings of a person "afraid of being looked down upon". i am not in this argument one sided, i see both the argument's points, and i think there is a possibility of a settlement here, providing you are willing to take what we say without prejudice.
let me ask you this, if all of what me or mentat or any of the younger people have said came out of the mouth of an older person, would you then claim it to be wisdom, even if it were the same agruement?

Les Sleeth

Jun12-03, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by maximus
if you walk into this conversaion knowing that we have no wisdom, nothing we say will sway you otherwise . . . let me ask you this, if all of what me or mentat or any of the younger people have said came out of the mouth of an older person, would you then claim it to be wisdom, even if it were the same agruement?

I am still waiting for you to respond to the point I have laid out twice already:

1. The experience one gains from "doing" provides a unique learning opportunity that is utterly distinct from only studying, thinking and intuitive understanding.

2. Wisdom is the specific term applied to knowledge acquired while "doing."

3. Life has many lessons that need to be learned, and it takes time to get that experience.

4. If you are young, you simply haven't had enough time to acquire many life experiences.

5. However, let's acknowledge that if you are alive, and have "done" things, then you can have some wisdom. But, of all humans alive, those who are older have had far more opportunities for "doing' than younger humans.

6. Further, surviving as an adult is a level of "doing" that creates a major line of demarcation from kids. In survival activities, idealism gets smashed, theories get trashed, and inflated self images get brought down to Earth.

So, kids who claim to be wise . . . it's minds without a clue about how much they have to learn to make it as an adult. Philosohical talk is not wisdom, anybody can talk wise, especially as a phantom handle at forum. Wise in
action, that is the test one must pass.

TENYEARS

Jun12-03, 05:09 PM

Wisdom is beyond proof. If you need proof to have wisdom or to acknowlege it you don't.

maximus

Jun12-03, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I am still waiting for you to respond to the point I have laid out twice already:
1. The experience one gains from "doing" provides a unique learning opportunity that is utterly distinct from only studying, thinking and intuitive understanding.

agreed. but that does not mean that you also can get an understanding from studying/thinking, ect.

2. Wisdom is the specific term applied to knowledge acquired while "doing."

not agreed. it is not so narrow a definition. wisdom, to me, can be acquired out of experience. let me ask a question: many people have agreed on this thread that the ability to look in upon yourself and know your true nature is a form of profound wisdom. i believe i have this ability, and can give you proof if you ask. so, the question is: how is this sort of wisdom (profound) gained by experience. i do not believe outer experience has anything to do with it, most of profound wisdom is inner experince, which occurs at both early and later ages. i have had a lot of inner experience, and (admitedly) not as much outer experience.

3. Life has many lessons that need to be learned, and it takes time to get that experience.

this i agree with (as you'll see in an early post of mine). but these time scales are different for every person.

4. If you are young, you simply haven't had enough time to acquire many life experiences.

not necesarily true. an older person will generally have had more outer experiences (which "earns" him some wisdom-profound or otherwise), but may not have had as many inner experiences.

5. However, let's acknowledge that if you are alive, and have "done" things, then you can have some wisdom. But, of all humans alive, those who are older have had far more opportunities for "doing' than younger humans.

more opportunities! that is exactly what mentat said in one of his first posts in here! an opportunity is not always taken. very ofter it is ignored (by older and younger alike). and therefore if a younger person is to take advantages of theirs's and other's oportunities, they can aquire wisdom that another older person may not have.

6. Further, surviving as an adult is a level of "doing" that creates a major line of demarcation from kids. In survival activities, idealism gets smashed, theories get trashed, and inflated self images get brought down to Earth.

very much agreed. but why is it that you think i or mentat can't understand this concept. maybe we realize this, and have felt it's conciquences as well as you have.

So, kids who claim to be wise . . . it's minds without a clue about how much they have to learn to make it as an adult. Philosohical talk is not wisdom, anybody can talk wise, especially as a phantom handle at forum. Wise in
action, that is the test one must pass.

again, why is it that you have so openly assumed that we have no wisdom in action?

maximus

Jun12-03, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Why must it be measureable?

Wisdom is recognized in others, not yourself.

this is contradictive. if wisdom is recognizable in others it must be (to some degree) measurable. how else can one say > you have wisdom > you do not > you have some > you have more>
these are measurments!

This is irregardless of age.

then your agreeing with mentat and i?

Integral

Jun12-03, 10:44 PM

Must I state the totally obvious, or are you simply being argumentive.

Were wisdom measurable we would not need to have this conversation.

Mentat

Jun12-03, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Are you grown?
Yes, even infants are grown. They grew a little yesterday and so they know about growing, having already grown. Some infants have even grown more rapidly than others, etc, etc.

No matter how fast you learn (or grow), the process still takes time. The more time, the better, regardless of the rate of development.

That is illogical. If my rate of learning is greater than that of another person, then I will aquire knowledge without having to pass nearly as much time as the other person.

I cannot speak for the other members, only for myself. It should be clear by this time that we can all have our own take on this wisdom issue. You spoke of infants and open mindedness relating to possibly being a part of wisdom, but after reading the dictionary definition you provided as representing your understanding I see little or no room for consideration of open mindedness in infancy playing a part of this and therefore I would say that bringing it up is more of a dodge on your part.

Not at all, as my mentioning infants, and their open-mindedness, was not a way of showing that children can be wise, but rather a way of showing how many older people have closed their minds. If they would return to their previous open-mindedness, it stands to reason that the infant has greater potential for wisdom than the more elderly one.

Mentat

Jun12-03, 10:58 PM

Mentat

Jun12-03, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Integral
Must I state the totally obvious, or are you simply being argumentive.

No, simply being argumentative would be to tell you that you should have used a question mark at the end of that question [;)].

Reasoning is to tell you that what is "obvious" to you may be dead wrong, and thus not "obvious" to us (if we happen to be on the right track, and I'm not saying we are, I'm just saying we might be - and saying "it's obvious that you're not" isn't going to teach us anything).

Were wisdom measurable we would not need to have this conversation.

What?! Were wisdom measurable we could prove it through continuing this discussion. Were wisdom immeasurable, we could prove it through continuing this discussion. Either way, debates are for reaching the optimal conclusion, and we don't reach them by saying "I'm obviously right, and you'll realize that when you get older".

Les Sleeth

Jun12-03, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
Why is it unique?

This statement proves we have no basis for continuing to discuss this. Mentat , go for it. If I am still alive when you discover the difference between learning from doing and learning from your mind, I'd like to hear about it. Good luck.

Integral

Jun13-03, 12:44 AM

You'll figure it out...... When you get older..

maximus

Jun13-03, 12:50 AM

i hope you're joking, Integral. this is exactly the reason that this conversation is going no where. please abandon any assumsions and approach this with an open-mind. (same goes to LW, because you can't just give up. answer the question if you can. if you can't, state so)

BoulderHead

Jun13-03, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
That is illogical. If my rate of learning is greater than that of another person, then I will aquire knowledge without having to pass nearly as much time as the other person.
This is the old knowledge/wisdom merry go round thingy, and the fact that someone may learn at an accelerated pace is something I've already addressed several times.

Not at all, as my mentioning infants, and their open-mindedness, was not a way of showing that children can be wise, but rather a way of showing how many older people have closed their minds. If they would return to their previous open-mindedness, it stands to reason that the infant has greater potential for wisdom than the more elderly one. Well that is not the take I got from it at all and it has already been mentioned that some may become more wise than others, so I think we are only going over the same ground again, and again.[:((]

Another God

Jun13-03, 11:49 AM

Here's the thing though, you two just discussed all about 'how wise one can be' with time.....but what you are forgetting, is that most people, honestly, simply are not that wise...no matter what age. And to me, this is the important point. While I am not as wise now as I may be in 10 years time, I am still dead on certain that I am wiser than most people I deal with, no matter what age they are.

I can see people who are 10 or 20 years older than me, and I can just see them making the same mistakes I made when I was 15, and even worse, they are making the same mistakes that I decided I would never make when I was 10... All my life I have been able to assess a situation and say "No, that looks stupid, I won't do that" and then when the time comes for myself, I know which option to choose. But some, No, most people can go through their whole lives, and not learn from some of the most obvious mistakes. They just don't seem to understand that they are their own biggest problem, that they make bad choices, that they don't think before they act...etc.

Age definately makes available a much broader field from which you can aquire your wisdom....but some people, no matter how experienced, will never be wise.

BoulderHead

Jun13-03, 11:59 AM

AG,
I'm fairly certain that what you have mentioned was agreed to by most if not all the posters previously.
I'm thinking I have gone as far as I'm able with this 'wisdom' topic.

Les Sleeth

Jun13-03, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by maximus
i hope you're joking, Integral. this is exactly the reason that this conversation is going no where. please abandon any assumsions and approach this with an open-mind. (same goes to LW, because you can't just give up. answer the question if you can. if you can't, state so)

You are too funny. Don't you think you have any development left? Does a human being suddenly fully develop at 14 or 17?

If you watch the brain of an infant develop, to give an analogy, you would see it start off relatively smooth on the surface, and each week that goes by bring more bulges (gyri) and indentations (sulci). Similarly, as children mature hormonal changes kick in. So clearly there are physiological aspects to being a kid.

In addition to pure physiology, part of what stimulates change is the environment. Children who are not talked to or touched, for instance, do not develop as well as children who are.

At your age, your physical devleopment isn't complete, and you haven't yet been exposed to certain environmental conditions that complete one's psychological development. As you learn survival skills, and to take care of yourself, you will see another sort of development begins to take place in you that is not there now.

Those of us who've gone/going through it have been trying to say that this is where it is decided how wise one becomes. The lessons are powerful and intense compared to living at home as a sheltered kid. Some people face it courageously, even eagerly, hoping to be developed as fully as possible by it. Others don't do so well. Then beyond that, there is the point where you are doing okay, and you can decided to experience new things. Will you choose drugs, beating your wife, stealing? Or will you choose love, philosophy, meditation, physical fitness? In these ways people get to choose their lessons. And as one gets older, one starts to keep certain activities/behaviors, get rid of others that have no value. But it is hard to know until you give things a try whether they are right for you . . . it takes time.

How can we prove this? There is no way to prove it. Why don't you understand it? Because you aren't there yet. How can you understand what you don't know about? You can't. It is like if human eyes took 20 years to develop, and people who have already developed them keep telling you what sight adds to perception. You keep arguing you can't "see" the slightest difference. Well, of course you can't!

Can you trust what adults say about this? Well, here's where you should apply your scientific mind and take note of feedback that is 100% unanimous. It probably means there is something to it.

BoulderHead

Jun13-03, 01:19 PM

There are no doubt some reasons why a candidate for President, say of the US, must meet a certain age requirement.
I don't think it is all just a conspiracy of old people, but more of a recognition of something.

There is one of these age limit rules that confuses me, however; Why can a young man of 18 be drafted and sent off to die, yet he is not allowed to purchase liquor until he is 19 or 21 ???
That one always smelled foul to me.

Mentat

Jun13-03, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
This statement proves we have no basis for continuing to discuss this. Mentat , go for it. If I am still alive when you discover the difference between learning from doing and learning from your mind, I'd like to hear about it. Good luck.

So because I asked you a question, which you have not answered, and which I wish to know the answer to, you don't think we can discuss? [:((]

I would have assumed that you would have wanted me to start asking you questions. It is, after all, better than just stating my opinion (as others seem content to do).

Mentat

Jun13-03, 02:31 PM

Mentat

Jun13-03, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
If you watch the brain of an infant develop, to give an analogy, you would see it start off relatively smooth on the surface, and each week that goes by bring more bulges (gyri) and indentations (sulci). Similarly, as children mature hormonal changes kick in. So clearly there are physiological aspects to being a kid.

In addition to pure physiology, part of what stimulates change is the environment. Children who are not talked to or touched, for instance, do not develop as well as children who are.

At your age, your physical devleopment isn't complete, and you haven't yet been exposed to certain environmental conditions that complete one's psychological development. As you learn survival skills, and to take care of yourself, you will see another sort of development begins to take place in you that is not there now.

Those of us who've gone/going through it have been trying to say that this is where it is decided how wise one becomes. The lessons are powerful and intense compared to living at home as a sheltered kid. Some people face it courageously, even eagerly, hoping to be developed as fully as possible by it. Others don't do so well. Then beyond that, there is the point where you are doing okay, and you can decided to experience new things. Will you choose drugs, beating your wife, stealing? Or will you choose love, philosophy, meditation, physical fitness? In these ways people get to choose their lessons. And as one gets older, one starts to keep certain activities/behaviors, get rid of others that have no value. But it is hard to know until you give things a try whether they are right for you . . . it takes time.

Unless (as I've been saying) someone were to plan ahead for these experiences - that would be the truly wise thing to do, wouldn't it?

How can we prove this? There is no way to prove it. Why don't you understand it? Because you aren't there yet. How can you understand what you don't know about? You can't. It is like if human eyes took 20 years to develop, and people who have already developed them keep telling you what sight adds to perception. You keep arguing you can't "see" the slightest difference. Well, of course you can't!

Then at what age is one a candidate for wisdom?

Can you trust what adults say about this? Well, here's where you should apply your scientific mind and take note of feedback that is 100% unanimous. It probably means there is something to it.

Ha! No offense, but an enormous majority of the humans in this world are theistic, does that mean that it must have some truth to it? A great majority of people who call themselves "Christians" behave in a way that contradicts Bible principles, does that mean that it's now OK, because most people agree that it is?

Seriously, it is always possible that everyone else really is driving on the wrong side of the street [;)].

Les Sleeth

Jun13-03, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
So because I asked you a question, which you have not answered, and which I wish to know the answer to, you don't think we can discuss? [:((]

I would have assumed that you would have wanted me to start asking you questions. It is, after all, better than just stating my opinion (as others seem content to do).

The problem is, nothing I or anyone else says is being accepted by you or Maximus. I have said it a dozen different ways that learning while doing involves more aspects of a human being than just learning with the intellect. I know this because I do both, so I can compare. If you read my last response to Maximus on p.15, I also tried to explain again what the "gauntlet" of survival does to people.

What it boils down to is, you have an opinion you can be wise now. The arguments you put up, if true, might make you right. But I say that you need time and life experience, and so all your ideas are wrong. Who is right? You are determined to have it your own way, so what can I say?

You want "proof" but all there is to consider is the personal testimony of people. There is not proof of wisdom or studies done or absolute logic.

One thing I do understand is the desire to avoid the stupidity one sees in many adults. Like AG pointed out, it does seem like very few adults are wise. But I also believe almost all adults are wiser than when they were kids, and if someone is headed for wisdom, they still have to put their time in to get life experience.

Young people think like this all the time you know. I did and I bet most of the other adults posting here did too. Looking back, the reason I couldn't understand is because I lacked the very thing I needed to "get it": wisdom.

Now as an older person, I seldom meet someone I can't learn something from, young or old. Why is that? Is it because I am meeting smarter people? Or is it because I am listening better? To me, one of my most valued personal treasures is having learned to listen -- and I mean really listen, without bias or my mind going.

In any case, you can accept the unanimous agreement of the older people here that wisdom takes time, or you can try out your own theory. I am not going to try to "prove" something that can't be proven because that is a big waste of everybody's time.

Mentat

Jun13-03, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
The problem is, nothing I or anyone else says is being accepted by you or Maximus.

That's because you are not supposed to just be "saying" things. You are supposed to be substantiating them. Surely this is obvious to you.

I have said it a dozen different ways that learning while doing involves more aspects of a human being than just learning with the intellect. I know this because I do both, so I can compare.

But why must your experience be mine?

What it boils down to is, you have an opinion you can be wise now. The arguments you put up, if true, might make you right. But I say that you need time and life experience, and so all your ideas are wrong. Who is right?

The one that can substantiate their claim. I have presented a dictionary's definition of "wisdom" and my definition of "wisdom", and I don't see anything in either of them that doesn't allow people of all ages (not counting the first 5 or so years of life, but that's just because they don't yet have enough "knowledge", and thus can't apply it (which is what wisdom is, "applied knowledge")) to partake of it.

You are determined to have it your own way, so what can I say?

Right back at ya.

You want "proof" but all there is to consider is the personal testimony of people. There is not proof of wisdom or studies done or absolute logic.

Why not?

Now as an older person, I seldom meet someone I can't learn something from, young or old. Why is that? Is it because I am meeting smarter people? Or is it because I am listening better? To me, one of my most valued personal treasures is having learned to listen -- and I mean really listen, without bias or my mind going.

And yet you are not listening to me, or maximus.

In any case, you can accept the unanimous agreement of the older people here that wisdom takes time, or you can try out your own theory.

So you refuse to explain why you believe the way you do - and will just leave it at "it worked that way for me, and the rest of the older people here, so it'll work that way for you too"?

I am not going to try to "prove" something that can't be proven because that is a big waste of everybody's time.

But why can't it be proven?

Les Sleeth

Jun13-03, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
That's because you are not supposed to just be "saying" things. You are supposed to be substantiating them. . . . But why must your experience be mine?

I don't have to substantiate them because wisdom is not something that lends itself to objective proof. It is a philosophical idea, so one's personal experience is all one has to judge by.

Originally posted by Mentat
The one that can substantiate their claim. I have presented a dictionary's definition of "wisdom" . . . So you refuse to explain why you believe the way you do - and will just leave it at "it worked that way for me, and the rest of the older people here, so it'll work that way for you too"?

I don’t want you to feel I’m giving up on you, but I don’t think you understand the problem. You seem to want acceptance that you can have wisdom as a kid, and I for one cannot give it. I will try once more to explain why, but I believe if we disagree, you have to just go ahead with your own idea.

First, and this is my absolute, number one reason: I have never, ever met a wise kid. I have never ever read a book of wisdom written by a kid. Every person I know with wisdom has lived through things. All the people famous for being wise I know of, like Socrates or Confucius or Meister Eckert, had lived through things. I have read and studied philosophy probably more than most, so I don’t consider myself naïve on this (i.e., should I trust that I have sufficient breadth of education to speak of wisdom?). So, based on my own experience with what it takes to acquire wisdom, I don’t believe youth can be wise.

Second, you like to quote the dictionary, but that is not a proper source for this discussion. Dictionaries are language tools. When it comes to difficult philosophical subjects like wisdom, they usually provide only the common usage by the population. A much better source is philosophy dictionaries and encyclopedias, and I will quote to you from two.

First the short definition: “1. Prudent judgment as to how to use knowledge in the everyday affairs of life. 2. The correct perception of the best ends in life, the best means to their attainment, and the practical intelligence in successfully applying those means.”

Now there you see the essence of what most of us have been saying. It is knowing how to live successfully (and that can include one’s inner life). The part we have been adding is, until one lives and tries out things, one does not know for sure. You can look at what is going on in the world, and you can have very perfect ideas about how things should be, but until you actually apply the ideas, it is all theory. I suppose you can have wise theories, but I would never come to you for advice, no matter how brilliant you are, over someone who has actually achieved what they are going to give advice about.

Here is a longer explanation of wisdom to ponder:

“A form of understanding that unites a reflective attitude and a practical concern. The aim of the attitude is to understand the fundamental nature of reality and its significance for living a good life.
“The object of the practical concern is to form a reasonable conception of a good life, given the agents’ character and circumstances, and to evaluate the situations in which they have to make decisions and act from its point of view.
“These evaluations are often difficult because many situations are complex, conceptions of a good life are incompletely formed, and the variability of individual character and circumstances render general principles insufficiently specific.
“Wisdom may be identified then with good judgment about the evaluation of complex situations and conceptions of a good life in the light of a reflective understanding of the human condition.”

Now kids, I ask you (reading from that last paragraph), how are you going to get good judgment before you practice doing it, and living with the consequences of your judgments? How are you going to use that judgment in complex situations when you don’t have that much responsibility? How are you going to know what the “good life” is until you have tried out what life has to offer and have experiences to help you decide? And without all that, how exactly are you going to reflect on the human condition before you have actually had a chance to test it out very much?

So, I say no kid can be wise, period (my only exception: if you were Jesus or the Buddha or someone similar – maybe). Smart, yes . . . wise, no. And I will never change my mind about that until I meet kids who are wise.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun13-03, 05:39 PM

Mentat, perhaps you should retitle the thread, "How old you are, proven by your wisdom, or lack thereof"

The Grimmus

Jun13-03, 05:41 PM

a poll would have went nicely with this

Mentat

Jun15-03, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
I don't have to substantiate them because wisdom is not something that lends itself to objective proof. It is a philosophical idea, so one's personal experience is all one has to judge by.

Then my opinion of wisdom should be exactly equal to yours, shouldn't it? After all, if all we have is our own experience, and wisdom cannot be objectively defined, then in my experience, wisdom is applied knowledge by whoever (regardless of age). Boy, that solved a lot (if you'll forgive my sarcasm).

I don’t want you to feel I’m giving up on you, but I don’t think you understand the problem. You seem to want acceptance that you can have wisdom as a kid, and I for one cannot give it.

All I want is to understand what wisdom really is, and why there are people who think age and wisdom are tied together.

First, and this is my absolute, number one reason: I have never, ever met a wise kid. I have never ever read a book of wisdom written by a kid. Every person I know with wisdom has lived through things. All the people famous for being wise I know of, like Socrates or Confucius or Meister Eckert, had lived through things. I have read and studied philosophy probably more than most, so I don’t consider myself naïve on this (i.e., should I trust that I have sufficient breadth of education to speak of wisdom?). So, based on my own experience with what it takes to acquire wisdom, I don’t believe youth can be wise.

While I hate to use myself as an example (since I'm probably not even wise by my own criteria), I ask again, you've really never found any wisdom in anything I've ever posted here? It's fine if you haven't (I can't take offense), but I didn't think I was entirely devoid of wisdom in my posting here.

Second, you like to quote the dictionary, but that is not a proper source for this discussion. Dictionaries are language tools. When it comes to difficult philosophical subjects like wisdom, they usually provide only the common usage by the population. A much better source is philosophy dictionaries and encyclopedias, and I will quote to you from two.

First the short definition: “1. Prudent judgment as to how to use knowledge in the everyday affairs of life. 2. The correct perception of the best ends in life, the best means to their attainment, and the practical intelligence in successfully applying those means.”

Now there you see the essence of what most of us have been saying. It is knowing how to live successfully (and that can include one’s inner life). The part we have been adding is, until one lives and tries out things, one does not know for sure. You can look at what is going on in the world, and you can have very perfect ideas about how things should be, but until you actually apply the ideas, it is all theory. I suppose you can have wise theories, but I would never come to you for advice, no matter how brilliant you are, over someone who has actually achieved what they are going to give advice about.

But it seems that many people still don't know, after having tried. Thus, they are no closer to wisdom than I am.

Also, I disapprove of your constant reference to "theory" as though it were synoymous to "speculation". I wasn't going to bring that up, but since you mentioned the difference between common-usage and proffesional definitions, I figured you should know that "theories" must be verified by experimentation (otherwise they are not "theories", but "hypotheses").

Here is a longer explanation of wisdom to ponder:

“A form of understanding that unites a reflective attitude and a practical concern. The aim of the attitude is to understand the fundamental nature of reality and its significance for living a good life.
“The object of the practical concern is to form a reasonable conception of a good life, given the agents’ character and circumstances, and to evaluate the situations in which they have to make decisions and act from its point of view.
“These evaluations are often difficult because many situations are complex, conceptions of a good life are incompletely formed, and the variability of individual character and circumstances render general principles insufficiently specific.
“Wisdom may be identified then with good judgment about the evaluation of complex situations and conceptions of a good life in the light of a reflective understanding of the human condition.”

Now kids, I ask you (reading from that last paragraph), how are you going to get good judgment before you practice doing it, and living with the consequences of your judgments?

And yet the definition didn't mention how one aquires practical judgement into situations that they will face, it merely says that they should have it (if they would be wise).

Descartes said: "The end of study should be to direct the mind towards the enunciation of sound and correct judgements on all matters that come before it."

If you unite your defintion of wisdom, with Descartes' rule, then you have: "The end of study (note, not "experience, but study) should be to attain wisdom".

How are you going to use that judgment in complex situations when you don’t have that much responsibility?

Ah, but using the judgements is not required to be "wise", merely being able to make those judgements is to be "wise".

How are you going to know what the “good life” is until you have tried out what life has to offer and have experiences to help you decide? And without all that, how exactly are you going to reflect on the human condition before you have actually had a chance to test it out very much?

By learning about it, and making judgements.

btw, I really hope those questions weren't meant to be rhetorical, but I wouldn't know, so I just answered them anyway.

So, I say no kid can be wise, period (my only exception: if you were Jesus or the Buddha or someone similar – maybe). Smart, yes . . . wise, no. And I will never change my mind about that until I meet kids who are wise.

Wasn't King Solomon wise? Whether you believe he got this from God, or from his own gifts, it is still an example of a "wise kid".

Also, could you please refrain from refering to us as "kids", it's not only deragotory, but patronizing.

Mentat

Jun15-03, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Mentat, perhaps you should retitle the thread, "How old you are, proven by your wisdom, or lack thereof"

Actually, I never intended for this to have anything to do with wisdom, or anything like that. I was genuinely asking how old the members here are (kind of an attempt to find out if there were others around my age, and also an attempt to satisfy curiosity).

Zantra

Jun15-03, 09:09 PM

Ok now that I have a headache from reading 16 pages of posts..

Knowledge and wisdom. Simply put Knowledge and intellect are the ability to absorb information. The rate is fixed from birth. You will always absorb information on a set curve, varied only by your desire to absorp it. Most adults loose that desire the older they get, because as someone stated earlier they become opinionated and set in thier ways.

Wisdom is of course how we interpret, comprehend, and apply the knowledge we've gained. But I think here we must seperate wisdom and experience.

Experiences are something that cannot be learned from a book. Experience is the difference between knowing all the applied physics in reference to space travel, and being an astronaut who's been in space. You may at 15 posess the knowledge and intellect to make that journey into space, but you still lack the experience of the thousands of hours of flight time, mock up launches, and physical conditioning that are required. Not to mention the social ramifications involved in putting a 15 year old into space. To use a different example, learning to drive. It's a relatively simple thing, and I'm sure the vast majority of teenagers here don't require much in the ways of the basics of driving. However, Actually driving and gaining experience is a different story. You can know how to go, to brake, swerve, park, or whatnot. But knowing what to do when someone cuts you off is a function of conditioning. It's NOT something you can condition your body to do no matter how many books on driving you read. It's a conditioned physical response that no amount of intellect can overcome. But after it happens to it a few times, your body becomes accustomed to it, and your reaction time improves.

Are all adults seperior in intellect? Most definitely not, especially on this board. But they do have something to contribute, because they've gone into space, logged those thousands of flight hours (figuratively) and they've been cut off. You may be able to comprehend physics more completely than they can, but can you balance a checkbook? Maybe if it was put upon you, but since life hasn't required it of you yet, the simplest aswer is no.

Being someone who was forced into early adulthood by my life experiences, I feel I'm able to understand both sides of this discussion. I was always being told what to do by people I felt didn't match up to my intellect or experiences. At the same time I now realize that I still had a great deal of experiences that I hadn't encountered.

"Do not compare yourself to others, for always there will be persons lesser and greater than yourself"

And for the record I'm 28

Mentat

Jun16-03, 01:05 AM

Thank you for your participation.

Originally posted by Zantra
Knowledge and wisdom. Simply put Knowledge and intellect are the ability to absorb information. The rate is fixed from birth. You will always absorb information on a set curve, varied only by your desire to absorp it. Most adults loose that desire the older they get, because as someone stated earlier they become opinionated and set in thier ways.

I don't mind your definition of knowledge, but you are portraying a completely "nature" orientied philosophy, and that isn't comfortable with modern science or philosophy (which demand finding a balance between "nature" and "nurture").

Wisdom is of course how we interpret, comprehend, and apply the knowledge we've gained.

Nice definition for wisdom. I agree.

But I think here we must seperate wisdom and experience.

Experiences are something that cannot be learned from a book. Experience is the difference between knowing all the applied physics in reference to space travel, and being an astronaut who's been in space. You may at 15 posess the knowledge and intellect to make that journey into space, but you still lack the experience of the thousands of hours of flight time, mock up launches, and physical conditioning that are required. Not to mention the social ramifications involved in putting a 15 year old into space. To use a different example, learning to drive. It's a relatively simple thing, and I'm sure the vast majority of teenagers here don't require much in the ways of the basics of driving. However, Actually driving and gaining experience is a different story. You can know how to go, to brake, swerve, park, or whatnot. But knowing what to do when someone cuts you off is a function of conditioning. It's NOT something you can condition your body to do no matter how many books on driving you read. It's a conditioned physical response that no amount of intellect can overcome. But after it happens to it a few times, your body becomes accustomed to it, and your reaction time improves.

Basically, you are saying that a younger person cannot have the experience of an older person, and I agree. However, you did say that there was a distinction between wisdom and experience - so are you agreeing that a younger person (perhaps even a 15/16 year old) can have wisdom, just not experience?

Are all adults seperior in intellect? Most definitely not, especially on this board. But they do have something to contribute, because they've gone into space, logged those thousands of flight hours (figuratively) and they've been cut off.

Thus they have experience to contribute, fine, but do they necessarily have greater wisdom?

Zantra

Jun16-03, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Mentat
Thank you for your participation.

I don't mind your definition of knowledge, but you are portraying a completely "nature" orientied philosophy, and that isn't comfortable with modern science or philosophy (which demand finding a balance between "nature" and "nurture").

Not quite sure I follow your interpretation here. What I'm describing to you is a scientifically proven principal. Are you disputing the fact that learning curves are a set rate? That's a proven fact, and I'm not sure if you're disputing it. I'm not saying this from a philisophical point of view, but a scientific one.

Basically, you are saying that a younger person cannot have the experience of an older person, and I agree. However, you did say that there was a distinction between wisdom and experience - so are you agreeing that a younger person (perhaps even a 15/16 year old) can have wisdom, just not experience?
[/qoute]

Yes I'm saying that exact thing. Wisdom and experience are distinct.

[quote]
Thus they have experience to contribute, fine, but do they necessarily have greater wisdom?

Well not in every case, no. As you said, and I will concede, not all adults are intelligent. that's a function of natural selection, not one of age. But the specifics we're discussing here are the exception to the general rules. Your average 15 year old is not more intelligent or wise than your average adult. And I mean in the broadest sense. But of course most 15 year olds aren't into physics either, so we're talking about specific circumstances. So it is possible for a 15 year old to have more raw intelligence and in some cases insight than an adult, the experience I've outlined about is not possible because experience IS a function of age.

Any questions?

Mentat

Jun16-03, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Zantra
Not quite sure I follow your interpretation here. What I'm describing to you is a scientifically proven principal. Are you disputing the fact that learning curves are a set rate? That's a proven fact, and I'm not sure if you're disputing it. I'm not saying this from a philisophical point of view, but a scientific one.

That is most certainly not a prove fact. In fact, modern science shows that our genes have markers that allow our very genetic makeup to change, due to external stimuli.

Just for a first-hand example, my I.Q. has increased by 13 points since the first time I took an I.Q. test.

Yes I'm saying that exact thing. Wisdom and experience are distinct.

Well then I, currently, agree with you (until someone else proves otherwise).

Well not in every case, no. As you said, and I will concede, not all adults are intelligent. that's a function of natural selection, not one of age. But the specifics we're discussing here are the exception to the general rules. Your average 15 year old is not more intelligent or wise than your average adult. And I mean in the broadest sense. But of course most 15 year olds aren't into physics either, so we're talking about specific circumstances. So it is possible for a 15 year old to have more raw intelligence and in some cases insight than an adult, the experience I've outlined about is not possible because experience IS a function of age.

Any questions?

Only one, why is it that you think that all of our learning ability is set at birth? A purely "nature"-oriented belief is not well-respected among scientists or philosophers nowadays.

Zantra

Jun16-03, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Mentat
That is most certainly not a prove fact. In fact, modern science shows that our genes have markers that allow our very genetic makeup to change, due to external stimuli.

Yes but does that allow for an increase in intelligence, or are we just inferring this?

Just for a first-hand example, my I.Q. has increased by 13 points since the first time I took an I.Q. test.

Intelligence scores can go up as much as 20 points during the course of a lifetime. It's that "curve" I was discussing earlier. As we mature from infant to adult, our ability to analyze and absorb data increases. So everyone goes up a certain percentage. That's not unusual.

Only one, why is it that you think that all of our learning ability is set at birth? A purely "nature"-oriented belief is not well-respected among scientists or philosophers nowadays.

Certain things are set at birth. If you're born with brown eyes you'll always have brown eyes. If you're born with brown hair, it will stay brown unless you're old, or a woman, in which case it will change about 3 times a year;) The curve of learning is only through early adulthood, then it levels off. I'd have to see scientific evidence that specifically says external stimuli directly affect intelligence before I'd concede something that's well established.

Mr. Robin Parsons

Jun18-03, 08:06 AM

Lets see, the physiology of a Human being gives a maximum neural connectivety, somewhere aroung 24/25 years of Age.

The development of the brain requires time to achieve it's capacitance, and the 'organization' that ends up resultant as mind.

There are changes that are afforded only by the processes of life, just like when the apple blossoms on the tree, that doesn't mean the apple is ready to eat....time needs to pass/grow.

tritium_man

Jun18-03, 01:46 PM

12 million years old... is that ok?

Mistress Lilith

Jun20-03, 06:51 AM

I turned 18 just on Tuesday. Yay for me!

JetBlckNewYr03

Jun23-03, 03:19 AM

i have lived the last 15 years of the rest of time.

DR OF DEATH

Jun23-03, 07:00 AM

i am 3000 years old and am constantly reincarnated as a 22 year old each day [:))]

Mentat

Jun23-03, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Zantra
Yes but does that allow for an increase in intelligence, or are we just inferring this?

Well, I see no reason why it shouldn't affect intelligence, but no, I have not heard it directly related to intelligence.

Intelligence scores can go up as much as 20 points during the course of a lifetime. It's that "curve" I was discussing earlier. As we mature from infant to adult, our ability to analyze and absorb data increases. So everyone goes up a certain percentage. That's not unusual.

But your "curve" can be changed, otherwise: 1) I.Q. books would not tell ones that study and challenges of the mind increase I.Q.; 2) Monozygote Twins would always increase in I.Q. at exactly the same rate; and 3) I could become addicted to whatever drugs I wanted to, and never have it affect my intelligence.

Certain things are set at birth. If you're born with brown eyes you'll always have brown eyes.

That is, for the most part true.

If you're born with brown hair, it will stay brown unless you're old, or a woman, in which case it will change about 3 times a year;)

So, you are saying that I can't dye my hair?

The curve of learning is only through early adulthood, then it levels off.

Hmm. So a child's intelligence shouldn't change at all then? Why do you think so?

Zantra

Jun23-03, 03:15 PM

So, you are saying that I can't dye my hair?

Nope, not unless ur a woman or gay;) Men don't care about hair unless they are gay or from California, or both(kidding mostly, but those of you in cali know what I mean;)

Hmm. So a child's intelligence shouldn't change at all then? Why do you think so? [/B]

I didn't say that it shouldn't change. A child's intelligence level naturally changes as it learns more. This is the "learning curve" Everyone has it. Some have a sharper curve than others. Some read at 5-7, and some read as early as 2-3. It all depends on the genetics. You keep insisting that I'm saying children don't increase in intelligence. Quite the contrary, a human being's greatest level of intellectual development is from birth to early adulthood. However beginning in early adulthood, that intellectual curve begins to fade, and though they may still continue to read, study and absorb information, the rate at which they are able to do that does not increase. So their logic, reason, and cognitive skills in effect, "Max out". They may become more learned in the knowledge they aquire, but the intellect with with they manipulate that knowledge remains level.

Read this carefully to make sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'm mostly in agreement with you.

Zantra

Jun24-03, 07:05 PM

also wanted to add that according to Mensa, the IQ stablizes around age 10

DR OF DEATH

Jun25-03, 06:51 AM

really i thought you reached your intelectual peak at 21.

at ten my IQ was 101

at 16 it was 114

im now 22 and my IQhas been 124 for the last 3 years.

so i would say that iq doesnt stabalize at ten.

Les Sleeth

Jun25-03, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by drdeath
really i thought you reached your intelectual peak at 21.

at ten my IQ was 101

at 16 it was 114

im now 22 and my IQhas been 124 for the last 3 years.

so i would say that iq doesnt stabalize at ten.

I don't disagree that IQ might increase with age, but using your results, for example, it could also be that you are becoming more skilled at taking IQ tests.

Mentat

Jun25-03, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Zantra
Nope, not unless ur a woman or gay;) Men don't care about hair unless they are gay or from California, or both(kidding mostly, but those of you in cali know what I mean;)

I didn't say that it shouldn't change. A child's intelligence level naturally changes as it learns more. This is the "learning curve" Everyone has it. Some have a sharper curve than others. Some read at 5-7, and some read as early as 2-3. It all depends on the genetics. You keep insisting that I'm saying children don't increase in intelligence. Quite the contrary, a human being's greatest level of intellectual development is from birth to early adulthood. However beginning in early adulthood, that intellectual curve begins to fade, and though they may still continue to read, study and absorb information, the rate at which they are able to do that does not increase. So their logic, reason, and cognitive skills in effect, "Max out". They may become more learned in the knowledge they aquire, but the intellect with with they manipulate that knowledge remains level.

Read this carefully to make sure you understand where I'm coming from. I'm mostly in agreement with you.

Fine, you are saying that a child's intelligence does increase, but at a rate that is determined entirely by genes, right? I still disagree. If I get into a nasty car accident, where my brain is severly damaged, I will not progress in intellect as I might have otherwise. If I am raised in primitive surroundings, with no access to public (or otherwise) learning facilities, my intelligence will not increase as it would have, were it nurtured.