What Happens if Electrons and Protons Had Different Charges?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a hypothetical scenario where the charges of electrons and protons differ slightly, specifically considering the implications for the net charge in a given volume of water. Participants are tasked with calculating the net charge in 1.50 liters of water based on this altered charge scenario.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss calculating the number of moles and molecules of water, with some expressing uncertainty about how to proceed after determining these quantities. There are questions about the meaning of the charge notation (1.50e-5)e and how to apply it in calculations. Some suggest alternative methods for calculating the net charge of water molecules.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants sharing their calculations and questioning each other's reasoning. Some guidance has been offered regarding the interpretation of the charge and the periodic table, but there is no explicit consensus on the best approach to take. Multiple interpretations of the problem are being explored.

Contextual Notes

Participants note constraints such as the lack of a periodic table and the need to clarify the charge of water molecules under the new assumptions. There are also mentions of potential errors in calculations and the need to post work for review.

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Because the charges on the electron and proton have the same absolute value, atoms are electrically neutral. Suppose this were not exactly true, and the absolute charge of the electron were less than the charge of the proton by (1.50e-5)e.

now its a 4 part question, i think i can do the other 3, but i don't understand the first part.

1) What would be the net charge in 1.50 liters of water?

(Take the density of water to be 1 g/cm3 and the molecular weight of water to be 18.)

so i solve for the number of moles, and then the number of molecules. and i get 55.55 moles or 3.35x10^25. from there I'm just not sure what i should do. My first thought is to solve for how many protons/electrons in each molecule. I don't happen to have the periodic table handy, but I'm sure i could find it online. But usually he gives us all that sort of info, so i was sort of doubting that's what i had to do. I was thinking maybe there was some easier way. Any ideas?
 
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Gale17 said:
Because the charges on the electron and proton have the same absolute value, atoms are electrically neutral. Suppose this were not exactly true, and the absolute charge of the electron were less than the charge of the proton by (1.50e-5)e.

now its a 4 part question, i think i can do the other 3, but i don't understand the first part.

1) What would be the net charge in 1.50 liters of water?

(Take the density of water to be 1 g/cm3 and the molecular weight of water to be 18.)

so i solve for the number of moles, and then the number of molecules. and i get 55.55 moles or 3.35x10^25. from there I'm just not sure what i should do. My first thought is to solve for how many protons/electrons in each molecule. I don't happen to have the periodic table handy, but I'm sure i could find it online. But usually he gives us all that sort of info, so i was sort of doubting that's what i had to do. I was thinking maybe there was some easier way. Any ideas?
figure out how many of each atom are there for example there is one Oxygen for each water molecule, so there is 1 x (# of molecules of water) Oxygen atoms,
Then you can look at the periodic table and find out how many protons/electrons an Oxygen atom has...

can you figure out the rest?

edit: looking over your calculations thus far, they are incorrect, post your work
keep in mind 1 cm^3 = 1*10^-3 L , and molar mass is 18 g/mol
 
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ok ya, that's what i was thinking i'd do, but i dunno, i thought that there may be a different way to do it. Awell. A second question: I'm not sure what (1.50e-5)e. means.
 
Gale17 said:
ok ya, that's what i was thinking i'd do, but i dunno, i thought that there may be a different way to do it. Awell. A second question: I'm not sure what (1.50e-5)e. means.
I think the first 'e' is actually supposed to be a capital 'E'. This is another way of writing 10^x ... Calculators use this notation often. The second 'e' stands for the magnitued of the charge of an electron which is 1.6022*10^-19 C.
 
by the way,, your calculations are wrong so far... post your work so we can figure out what went wrong.
 
i figured actually. but the second e? just like a unit, or shouldi multiply by the real charge?

secondly, i forget how to use the periodic table. helium has 1 proton and one electron, i forget how i know about oxygen. is it 8 because that's oxygens atomic number. 8 protons 8 electrons i mean??
 
my bad... i did it for one liter. So its 83.33 moles and 5.02x10^25 molecules. 5.02x10^25 oxygen atoms and 1.00x10^26 hydrogen atoms
 
Gale17 said:
i figured actually. but the second e? just like a unit, or shouldi multiply by the real charge?
just substitute the charge of an electron for e.
so (1.5E-5)e = (1.5*^10-5)(1.6022*10^-19)C

I can't tell by the way the question is worded whether that is the charge of the new electron, or if were supposed to subtract that amount from the charge of a proton. hmm... I think its the latter.

secondly, i forget how to use the periodic table. helium has 1 proton and one electron, i forget how i know about oxygen. is it 8 because that's oxygens atomic number. 8 protons 8 electrons i mean??
Yes exactly...
 
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Gale17 said:
my bad... i did it for one liter. So its 83.33 moles and 5.02x10^25 molecules. 5.02x10^25 oxygen atoms and 1.00x10^26 hydrogen atoms
Yep looks good :smile:
 
  • #10
oops, An easier solution would be to figure out the "new" charge of a water molecule rather than to calculate it for each atom,,, but both methods work just as good, sorry
 
  • #11
new charge of the water molecule? as in??
 
  • #12
"new" as in taking account of the changed value for the charge of an electron that they gave you. Sorry if this confused you... I was just saying that its quicker to calculate the charge of the water molecule rather than calculate the number of atoms, but do it whichever way is easiest for you. If you wan't I can show you what I was talking about when your done.
 
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  • #13
go ahead and show me now, I've done the problem 4 times.
 
  • #14
Gale17 said:
go ahead and show me now, I've done the problem 4 times.
1 H20 molecule has 2 Hydrogen atoms which contribute 1 electron/proton each,
1 H20 molecule has 1 Oxygen atom which contrubues 8 electrons/protons each,

so each water molecule has a total 10 electrons/protons.
Normally the charge of an electron equals the charge of a proton so the charges balance out and the molecule is neutral.
But in this case, the charge of the electron is less than that of a proton by (1.5E-5)e, and since a proton is + , and an electron is -, this means each molecule will have a net positive charge
since there are 10 electrons/protons in a H20 molecule, this means that 1 H20 molecule has a net charge of,
10 * (1 - 1.5*10^-5) * (1.6022*10^-19) C = 1.602*10^-18C

Since there is a total of 5.02*10^25 H20 molecules, the net charge of the whole thing is,
(5.02*10^25) * (1.602*10^-18)C = 8.043*10^7 C
 
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  • #15
Gale17 said:
so i solve for the number of moles, and then the number of molecules. and i get 55.55 moles or 3.35x10^25. from there I'm just not sure what i should do. My first thought is to solve for how many protons/electrons in each molecule. I don't happen to have the periodic table handy, but I'm sure i could find it online.
Just work out the number of protons by dividing the mass of water by the mass of a proton:[itex]1.5 kg/1.67(E-27) = 8.9E26[/itex] protons

AM
 
  • #16
Andrew Mason said:
Just work out the number of protons by dividing the mass of water by the mass of a proton:[itex]1.5 kg/1.67(E-27) = 8.9E26[/itex] protons

AM
Unfortunately that doesn't work because Oxygen has as many neutrons as protons, and the mass of a neutron is the same as that of a proton, so your number calculates approximately twice the number of protons.
 
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  • #17
MathStudent said:
Unfortunately that doesn't work because Oxygen has as many neutrons as protons, and the mass of a neutron is the same as that of a proton, so your number calculates approximately twice the number of protons.
Right you are. This gives you the number of nucleons. So to find the number of protons or electrons, multiply by 10/18.

BTW, you can see that the charge is enormous. The force between two 1.5 kg blocks of water one metre apart would be
[tex]F = kqQ/R^2 = 9E9*8E7*8E7/1 = 5.76E25 N.[/tex] . That is enough to accelerate the Earth (6E24 kg) at rate of 10 m/sec^2.

AM
 
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