How Does Charge Imbalance in a Conducting Rod Affect Electric Field Direction?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of charge imbalance in a conducting rod subjected to an external electric field. Participants explore the implications of this charge movement on the direction of the resulting electric field, considering factors such as thermal noise and the Hall effect.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where a conducting rod, initially neutral, develops a charge imbalance when a current flows, suggesting that this imbalance generates an additional electric field that opposes the applied field.
  • Another participant agrees with the initial assertion that the additional electric field points to the left, opposing the applied field.
  • Contrarily, a different participant argues that thermal noise is significant enough to obscure any effects of charge movement, suggesting that the direction of the field could be random and not consistently observable.
  • A later reply challenges the previous claim about thermal noise, stating that the Hall voltage demonstrates that a potential difference can exist across a conductor even at room temperature, implying that thermal motion does not negate the effects of charge imbalance.
  • Another participant provides a quantitative comparison of thermal energy and electric field energy, arguing that the energy due to the electric field is significantly larger than thermal effects, suggesting that thermal noise cannot dominate the situation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the significance of thermal noise in relation to the electric field generated by charge imbalance. Some assert that the effects of charge movement are observable, while others contend that thermal noise renders these effects negligible.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the Hall effect and provide energy comparisons to support their arguments, indicating a reliance on specific physical principles and assumptions about thermal motion and charge behavior.

Soaring Crane
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Consider a long conducting rod that is suspended by insulating strings. Assume that the rod is initially electrically neutral, and that it remains so. The rod is positioned along the x axis, and an external electric field that points in the positive x direction (to the right) can be applied to the rod and the surrounding region. The atoms in the rod are composed of positive nuclei (indicated by plus signs) and negative electrons (indicated by minus signs). Before application of the electric field, these atoms were distributed evenly throughout the rod.

Imagine that the rightward current flows in the rod for a short time. As a result, the net charge on the right end is positive and left end is negative.

The charge imbalance that results from this movement of charge will generate an additional electric field near the rod. In what direction will this field point?


Points to the left and opposes the initial applied field?
 
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Soaring Crane said:
Points to the left and opposes the initial applied field?

That's right.
 
Probably nothing related to this happens , thermal noise is quite large , much more so than any almost instantaneous differences in current, The field direction fleeting at the most could be anywhere -- nothing tells the electrons ( in your case ) where to go , except their own momentum , there are in random 3D motion at a fairly slow average velocity. The average field due to imbalance of motion is so small ( due to the large numbers) that on average it will never be seen ----- it's like asking what happens if ALL electrons move in the same direction --- well we do not ask this question until we reach almost absolute zero - then we get fantastic answers.
Ray.
 
rayjohn01 said:
Probably nothing related to this happens , thermal noise is quite large , much more so than any almost instantaneous differences in current, The field direction fleeting at the most could be anywhere -- nothing tells the electrons ( in your case ) where to go , except their own momentum , there are in random 3D motion at a fairly slow average velocity. The average field due to imbalance of motion is so small ( due to the large numbers) that on average it will never be seen ----- it's like asking what happens if ALL electrons move in the same direction --- well we do not ask this question until we reach almost absolute zero - then we get fantastic answers.
Ray.

This is not true. In fact, the whole concept of Hall voltage is a clear illustration that one CAN maintain a potential difference across a conductor or semiconductor even at room temperature. Thermal motion doesn't always wash out such effects. So the original answer is correct.

Zz.
 
rayjohn01 said:
Probably nothing related to this happens , thermal noise is quite large ,
How large are the thermal effects ?

At room temperature, [tex]\epsilon_{th} \approx k_BT < 10^{-20} J[/tex]

But if you apply even a modestly small potential of 1 volt between the ends of the long rod, you make the energy due to the field to be
[tex]\epsilon_{field} \approx eV > 10^{-19} J[/tex]

That's nearly 2 orders of magnitude bigger than the thermal effects. Surely, thermal noise can not dominate.
 

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