Do white people have an unconcious collective prejudice against those of color?

[Wardw]

At the risk of being flamed, I am going to throw this into the arena for discussion, for the issue seriously concerns me, so here goes. First to qualify:
I am a white Australian of 44. I have traveled the world extensively always as a backpacker. This keeps my feet firmly on the ground and is a far more pleasurable experience than hotel lobby to hotel lobby type travel. You just seem to meet the nicest people this way. I've traveled through many continents including Europe, Africa (was there for the 94 elections, God Bless Nelson Mandela, what a spirit) and many more. I have lived in Brasil for 11 years now.
And here is the point:
I have come to the sad conclusion after all these years that we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color. Yes even those of us who declare ourselves to be non racists.

I have thought long and hard about this, and it is the only reason I can think of to explain the fact that in every country whose population comprises a mix of races, (Brasil is a great example), those of color have fewer opportunities, less education, less possibilities of good employment, lower life expectancy and are also subject to prejudice from all areas including the police (even if they themselves are of color). We have all seen the statistics.
Often, if a white employer has two equally qualified candidates for a position and one is white and the other of color, guess who has a statistically better chance of getting the job?
Here in Brasil, most middleclass families have a maid, most often, colored.
While the family may have an income upwards of 10,000 Brasilian $ per month, the maid receives an average of 400 per month. If she happens to live-in, she can expect a bedroom smaller than the owner’s toilet. And 70% of these maids do not have thir government "work book" signed which means that their job is in fact, informal. If the book is not signed, the "employer" avoids paying taxes and retirement funds for them. And so when they are too old to work they are put on the streets with no retirement benifits.

So, assuming my theory is correct, (and it may not be).
Why is it so, why do we white people seem have a colective prejudice?
Any ideas?

[Kerrie]

racism is taught, not a part of our biological makeup. it would seem this is more of your experience/opinion of this perspective, are there statistics you can draw from to back it up?

[Wardw]

go to:

http://www.newint.org/issue145/facts.htm

[abhishek]

You seem to have avoided historical context altogether, arriving at your conclusion almost exclusively on the basis that the problems of today have entirely current causes. Much of what you described can be traced back to the colonial years. Imho, what we live in today, horrible as it may seem, is an improvement.

[Wardw]

You seem to have avoided historical context altogether, arriving at your conclusion almost exclusively on the basis that the problems of today have entirely current causes. Much of what you described can be traced back to the colonial years. Imho, what we live in today, horrible as it may seem, is an improvement.

I see your point, and you are right. I am not focusing on historical context. I'm just looking at the facts as they appear to me today. I mentioned in my post that these observations may or may may not be true. I would prefer to look forward as to how these issues can be resolved rather than to the past. And yes Colonialism has a lot to answer for to be sure.
(edit) and nowhere did I mention the causes

[Joel]

Regarding the study of prejudice, stereotypes and discrimination I would suggest Ruppert Brown's, Prejudice.

My (or actually Henry Tajfel's) take is that regardless of the reasons for racism or prejudice against people with different 'races', the phenomenon of minimal group behavior (and cognitive cathegorization) will always cause people identifying themselves with an in-group to discriminate against members of an out-group, no matter what that group is (ie. skin color, nationality, hair color, x/y). In that sense, you could say people with white skin has an "unconscious collective prejudice' against non-whites. But equally correct would be to claim that dark skinned people has prejudice against non-dark-skinned.

However, the above will not even nearly explain the statistics you presented. For that, I think history has much more to offer.

[Janitor]

...we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color. Yes even those of us who declare ourselves to be non racists...

In all of the parts of the United States that I have been to, it is evident that black males have a preference for nonblack females. It is not at all politically correct to note this, I know. But it is obviously the truth.

Have you, Ward, noticed the same thing in places where you have been? If so, do you consider it to be a form of racism on the part of black men against women of their own color?

[klusener]

On the same tone, I think that dark-skinned people (most) have an inferiority complex when they see whites.

For example, in India because I meet many people here, you have grandmothers, grandfathers, any elders, if they have a relative who has gone to America, the first question they ask when the relative calls back to India is "Has your child (if they have a child) or yourself gotten any whiter (paler)?" Now I am not going to generalize this, but I can say that this happens in most cases. This is still a hangover from the colonial period ( No dogs or Indians allowed; No dogs or chinese allowed, etc.)

[the number 42]

My (or actually Henry Tajfel's) take is that regardless of the reasons for racism or prejudice against people with different 'races', the phenomenon of minimal group behavior (and cognitive cathegorization) will always cause people identifying themselves with an in-group to discriminate against members of an out-group, no matter what that group is (ie. skin color, nationality, hair color, x/y). In that sense, you could say people with white skin has an "unconscious collective prejudice' against non-whites. But equally correct would be to claim that dark skinned people has prejudice against non-dark-skinned.

However, the above will not even nearly explain the statistics you presented. For that, I think history has much more to offer.

Well said. This also suggests that prejudice is the norm, and to get beyond it is an achievement rather than something to be glibly demanded.

[the number 42]

On the same tone, I think that dark-skinned people (most) have an inferiority complex when they see whites.

For example, in India because I meet many people here, you have grandmothers, grandfathers, any elders, if they have a relative who has gone to America, the first question they ask when the relative calls back to India is "Has your child (if they have a child) or yourself gotten any whiter (paler)?" Now I am not going to generalize this, but I can say that this happens in most cases. This is still a hangover from the colonial period ( No dogs or Indians allowed; No dogs or chinese allowed, etc.)

It should be mentioned that in India there is the caste system, where the lightest skinned are at the top & darkest at the bottom. (I sometimes wonder if this doesn't have something to do with the more outdoor work that the delets tend to do). When seen in this light, the comments of the masi can be seen more as a wish for upward social mobility than a derogatory comment on race. (Note for honkeys: masi = aunt).

[klusener]

Oh, I would say the exact opposite is happening regarding the caste system here, in fact the Brahmins or the top castes sometimes identify themselves as lower castes in certifcates because in education for example college and also other sectors, the gov. gives lower castes more seats than higher castes, I think it would be similar to the affirmative action in the US, for example a brahmin or any other higher caste person have a lesser amount of seats in college than lower castes, and the lower castes need a smaller percentage of marks to get in, for example if a lower caste person gets 85 percent, it is given more worth than if a higher caste person gets 94 or so percent. So nowadays, higher castes actually want to be identified as lower castes.

[Joel]

Well said. This also suggests that prejudice is the norm, and to get beyond it is an achievement rather than something to be glibly demanded.

Thank you. And a very worthy achievement, if I may add.

[the number 42]

Oh, I would say the exact opposite is happening regarding the caste system here, in fact the Brahmins or the top castes sometimes identify themselves as lower castes in certifcates because in education for example college and also other sectors, the gov. gives lower castes more seats than higher castes, I think it would be similar to the affirmative action in the US, for example a brahmin or any other higher caste person have a lesser amount of seats in college than lower castes, and the lower castes need a smaller percentage of marks to get in, for example if a lower caste person gets 85 percent, it is given more worth than if a higher caste person gets 94 or so percent. So nowadays, higher castes actually want to be identified as lower castes.

Wow! I never realised things had changed so much. Was this brought in before the BJP? Can a Brahmin legitimately call themselves delet?

[the number 42]

Thank you. And a very worthy achievement, if I may add.

You're not Jewish are you?

[Polly]

Sorry to interupt you guys, but this is an emergency (and not what you think) :biggrin: 42, your inbox is full again, and I need to tell you the GPS position of Bin Laden :biggrin: .

[Joel]

You're not Jewish are you?

Yes, in fact I am. But I'm not religious. How did you guess?

[the number 42]

Yes, in fact I am. But I'm not religious. How did you guess?

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

[DaveC426913]

"I have come to the sad conclusion after all these years that we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color."

If I may:

1] Anecdotal information - even yours (though you have an impressive worldliness) - is poor evidence for drawing objective conclusions.

2] There is very rarely consideration for racism between other cultures. Do we really stop to consider how, for example, Africans feel about East Indians?

3] It is not a personal thing between two specific races. We become aware of- and fear- that which appears different. It is a general thing, which becomes more pronounced the more obvious the difference. We don't have an obvious racist attitude towards, say Italians (or any other white culture), because frankly, it is difficult to distinguish them. When you hear of a shooting on the news, the primary piece of identifying information is the colour of the person. We hear that the shooter is black, or white. We do NOT hear that he is Italian or Irish.




"Here in Brasil, most middleclass families have a maid, most often, colored."

This is not an individual decision, it is institutionalized. If 90 percent of the candidates for housekeeping are, in fact, black, there's a 90% chance that you will end up with a black maid, no matter how you feel about it.



I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, I do believe you are correct, it's just not as simple or (pardon the pun) as black and white as that.

[Polly]

:cry: Can anyone ask 42 to read my previous post? Bin Laden is leaving on a helicopter!!

[Joel]

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

Umm, no. Could you enlighten me?

[the number 42]

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

Let me try again.

"Hang on - you're not Jewish, are you? :eek: :uhh:"
:biggrin:

[the number 42]

:cry: Can anyone ask 42 to read my previous post? Bin Laden is leaving on a helicopter!!

Uh? Tell me more. Is the pilot too White or something?

[Joel]

Let me try again.

"Hang on - you're not Jewish, are you? :eek: :uhh:"
:biggrin:

I'd say, 'huh', but it would be too cruel to let the comedian die on the stage. :biggrin: :tongue2:

[the number 42]

That there is comedianism, bud. :grumpy:

[klusener]

Wow! I never realised things had changed so much. Was this brought in before the BJP? Can a Brahmin legitimately call themselves delet?

No, it was brought much earlier. But dalits are a different matter, remember there are many castes. Dalits are predominantly in the North and me being from the South I don't know much about them but I think they are similar to Naxalites (sp?) in Andhra Pradesh, who use violence against the landlords. Dalits are at the bottom I think, so Brahmins wouldn't choose to do that even if they could, usually they just choose a lower caste (but not too low ) in school certificates and things like that, but still follow Brahmin customs, that's the only way some of them can get into medical schools and such, which are hard to get into on merit...

[Joel]

That there is comedianism, bud. :grumpy:

:confused:

I must appologise for any sins I have made and hope for redemption. Do you think those Hail Marys will help me, 42? :redface:

[the number 42]

:confused:

I must appologise for any sins I have made and hope for redemption. Do you think those Hail Marys will help me, 42? :redface:

Hail Marys are for girls. Saturday night is for VODKA!!! See you later, I'm going out. :biggrin:

[Evo]

Prejudice, racism, discrimination are all learned. Perhaps there is to a small degree a natural tendency to be wary of things that are not familiar to us.

I am white and I was born and raised in the southern part of the US, in Houston, TX. My mother is French and I was raised to be understanding and caring of those less fortunate than us. My mother explained racism towards black people and why it was wrong. As a result, I grew up in a community that was very prejudiced towards blacks & hispanics without becoming prejudiced (btw, Americans don't consider people from India to be black, even though some are much darker than African Americans, some people from Mexico have darker skin than African Americans, it's not so much skin color as ethnic group).

There was a movie when I was a little girl called "South Pacific" which is in part about the racial discrimination of the native Pacific Islanders. This was the first time that I became aware of just how varied and widespread racism was. There is a song by Rogers & Hammerstein that really stuck with me.

"You've got to be carefully taught"

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

[Joel]

Hail Marys are for girls. Saturday night is for VODKA!!! See you later, I'm going out. :biggrin:

Have a good one! I'll do a couple of Our Fathers then, just to be safe. (And read about enzymes used to digest vodka, while your out drinking it...) :grumpy: :biggrin:

[Clausius2]

Go to a marginal outskirt (some like where I live) and you will change the title of your thread:

"Do black people/muslims/gypsies have an unconcious collective prejudice against those of white color?"

[klusener]

Well I think it is more of a "fear" against whites than a racist attitude. You should read "The Shadow of the Sun" by Ryszard Kapucinski, a Polish author, one of the best commentaries of Africa from the 1960s to the present, he says how Africans still remember how white people came to their land during the colonial times and well into 1936 into Nigeria, I think or some country close to that, and stole them and sold them into slavery. So I think for Africans, that element of fear and distrust still lies in them. I am not sure this exists for Afro-Americans though..

As for Muslims, I don't know, the Muslims I know are almost white as whites you see in America, for example some muslims from Lebanon and in the Middle East are whiter than Americans, but I realize that OBL is darker than Americans, so maybe those from the Hindu-Kush area are probably darker.

[singleton]

I would venture to say that everyone has an unconcious prejudice towards anyone who is different. It just so happens that skin colour is the first factor in any social context (you see their skin before you hear their accent or listen to their words). There is nothing "bad" about it and it will never change unless some day in thousands of years there are no longer "purebreds" of any race but humans are just "mutts" :P.

Everyone feels most comfortable around those most like themselves [obvious].

[klusener]

I remember after 9/11, some Indians in NYC wore crosses on their necks, so the mainstream American wouldn't mistake them for Muslim, because some poor Punjabi gas station owner was murdered by an American because he mistook him for a Muslim. Americans might still remember the news, maybe... Many Pakistanis were also brutalized after 9/11...

Amusingly, I also remember a kid in my school who had lived in America for some years, (near Cupertino (sp?), California I think) and the Americans in his school used to make fun of him because he brought Indian food to school and they teased him for it. His parents were doctors and after a while he was so psychologically scarred that they quit their practice in America and moved back to India. Now that i think about it, I shouldn't have said amusingly, it was actually pretty sad..

[Astronuc]

White persons (European) or individuals of any other ethnic group are not inherently racist or ethnist. Rather, as others have indicated, such negative behavior is learned - transmitted from adults to children, from older generations to the next.

My father worked for the World Council of Churches for a few years, and my parents entertained people from all over the world. I was accustomed to seeing people from Africa, Asia and SE Asia, as well as European. My parents also taught me that all peoples are equal.

I am an expatriated Aussie living in the US. I came with my family to US, and lived not to far from Evo, in the mid 60's and 70's. That was a time of turmoil in the US concerning the civil rights of minorities, and 1968 was tumultous year with the assassination of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, the Chicago riots during the democratic convention, and the open racism across the US. Adding to that was the Vietnam war and the anti-war movement, as well as various counter-culture movements.

I had several friends of African-American (black), Hispanic (brown) and Asian (color?) descent, as well as European. It would have been strange for me not to. On the other hand, as I matured, I learned that not everyone felt that way, and I also came to realize that US society was heavily segregated.

During one summer in the 1970's, I worked at an oil refinery for a summer job. The personnel were integrated, but during breaks and lunch, the white males went upstairs to socialize, the black males went downstairs, the women and others (generally older) congregated on the main floor. I was amazed. I drifted among the groups, but spent most of my time downstairs. In the evening everyone left for home, and the blacks would generally go to a predominantly black neighborhood, whites to white neighborhoods, hispanics to hispanic neighborhoods, and so on. That is the way it was, and still is in many parts of the US.

I got to know most of the people with whom I worked. At the end of the summer, I left to return to university. I went to say good-bye to my new black friends, and to thank them for sharing their time with me. One, with whom I have been particularly close during the summer, said to me, "You're not like other white people." I was very sad, and not surprised, to hear that.

Racism, ethnism, nationalism, chauvinism, etc are still part of humanity today. It's not just whites, it is every ethnic or racial group. I would hope that humanity would now be making greater and faster progress to overcome what is effectively a continuation of tribalism and clanism. We still have a long way to go.

[tribdog]

I've noticed that people congregate together at lunch times in groups. the people who don't want me around go upstairs, the people who would prefer if I ate somewhere else go downstairs and the people who won't even look at me go to the main floor.

[the number 42]

I've noticed that people congregate together at lunch times in groups. the people who don't want me around go upstairs, the people who would prefer if I ate somewhere else go downstairs and the people who won't even look at me go to the main floor.

Personalityism is not the same thing as racism. :biggrin:

[the number 42]

Amusingly, I also remember a kid in my school who had lived in America for some years, (near Cupertino (sp?), California I think) and the Americans in his school used to make fun of him because he brought Indian food to school and they teased him for it. His parents were doctors and after a while he was so psychologically scarred that they quit their practice in America and moved back to India. Now that i think about it, I shouldn't have said amusingly, it was actually pretty sad..

As kids I don't think we realise how hurtful bullying can be. Its only when you look back as an adult that you realise. You don't often see this level of inhumanity routinely practiced in other contexts, but kids don't seem to see it as that bad (unless it happens to them), and adults don't bother that much because 'its only kids'. Maybe this is like the unconsious prejudice the OP is suggesting Whites have i.e. something that is seen but not noticed?

[the number 42]

... it and it will never change unless some day in thousands of years there are no longer "purebreds" of any race but humans are just "mutts"

I had a friend who was an enthusiastic advocate of the 'homogenous humanity' principle. In fact he seemed to be on a one-man mission to make it happen :rolleyes:

[the number 42]

Everyone feels most comfortable around those most like themselves

Sometimes 'opposites attract', but I think the general rule is 'birds of a feather flock together'. I've always thought this sort of rule well worth breaking, unless born a bird brain.

[the number 42]

Have a good one! I'll do a couple of Our Fathers then, just to be safe. (And read about enzymes used to digest vodka, while your out drinking it...) :grumpy: :biggrin:

I have such a hangover :frown: I said a few Father Flannagans, but it didn't seem to help. Damn those enzymes...

[the number 42]

White persons (European) or individuals of any other ethnic group are not inherently racist or ethnist. Rather, as others have indicated, such negative behavior is learned - transmitted from adults to children, from older generations to the next.

http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207%2FS15327957PSPR0502_3?cookieSet=1
"The consensus from the developmental literature examining children's intergroup attitudes has been that children as young as 3 years of age exhibit racial prejudice" but that this is probably ingroup favouritism rather than outgroup derogation.

Unless born blind, we have an inborn ability to discriminate between different colours, including skin colour. Its probably safe to say that we are more comfortable with the familiar than the unfamiliar. So if born in an all White (or Black etc) environment, those are the people we feel most comfortable with. The feelings we attach to people of a different skin colour will probably come from our upbringing, including affecting the feelings that spring from sheer unfamiliarity. The good news is that not everyone is brought up to be racist, and that as we get older (most of us) develop the cognitive skills necessary to be able to question the views we inherited from our parents.

[JasonRox]

No, I don't even flinch about other races at all.

[Integral]

The Color of Fear (http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm) video seems to imply exactly what the OP is saying. That Caucasian Americans (It does not extend the implication to Caucasians worldwide) are inherently racist. I was a bit disturbed by the message, as I have never considered myself as such. I still feel that racism is a learned response, the question is can it be unlearned?

[russ_watters]

The Color of Fear (http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm) video seems to imply exactly what the OP is saying. That Caucasian Americans (It does not extend the implication to Caucasians worldwide) are inherently racist. I was a bit disturbed by the message, as I have never considered myself as such. I still feel that racism is a learned response... The best evidence of this, imo, comes from teachers - early elementary and even preschool teachers. That's the time when a child is first exposed to (depending on where they live) a large number of peers of varying race and background. I've heard from teachers that some of these kids don't even understand the concept of race. They've never heard of it, so its utterly irrelevant to them! That, to me, is a pretty neat thing.

But some kids do have "attitudes" and that is a reflection of the attitudes of their parents. Yeah, I agree that prejudices are learned (either specifically taught or learned through experiences). ...the question is can it be unlearned? On this, I'm not real optomistic. For kids, maybe, but once someone reaches adolescence, I think its pretty much over. My grandmother (deceased at 94 a couple of years ago) was pretty racist and there really wasn't any logic behind it or reasoning with her (we pretty much just let it go because there wasn't much we could do about it). Fortunately, my cousin laughed when my grandmother questioned her choice of names for her first son (Joshua - perhaps an unusual choice for a hard-core Southern Baptist), but it easily could have gotten ugly.

[Smurf]

People like other people to be like themselves. According to Maslow's Hierarchy of needs the 'social need' (whereby people try to be part of a group) comes after 'basic needs' like food, water and sleep and the 'safety need', meaning that you feel safe.

I find it interesting that America, often seen as the most racist of developed nations, is also heralded as one of the least safe.
So, leaving the USA aside, in general would you say racism is more common in developed or undeveloped countries? certainly in areas of the highest form of racism.. genocide, it is very much unsafe; so if we are to believe Maslow then this racism must be fueled by something other than simple conformity.

On another note, Whites, being the dominant race (at least in the west), are often the ones subject to racism from the minorities, and vice versa. This, I think has nothing to do with white, black, indian, ect so much as power. Whites are seen as 'the overlord' and thus the minorities are seen as 'the oppressed' and so a natural feeling of rebellion happens, and whites retalliate.
It's more attacking power/defending power I think, which is why whites are hesitant to hire a non white person, (this also works for feminism and 'women in the office', ect.,)

On yet another note, I was watching a presentation about chris rock the other day, and I find it very interesting how comedians can get up on stage and make fun of the white audience, and everyone accepts it. But (regardless of race) not the black audience. Chris rock did challenge the black audience, picking specific 'groups' to make fun of, and on many tours got booed quite a lot, and in others he became more popular for it.

[Evo]

On yet another note, I was watching a presentation about chris rock the other day, and I find it very interesting how comedians can get up on stage and make fun of the white audience, and everyone accepts it. Odd, isn't it, people will pay to have someone ridicule them. :wink:

In the US, racism isn't just white/black or white/hispanic. In Houston, TX where I grew up there is a very large Mexican (hispanic) community and they are very racist against blacks and vice versa, every night on the news it was a tally of how many blacks and hispanics had killed each other in gang related killings. They both hated the Vietnamese that started moving there.

When I lived in Washington DC, my husband at the time was in the Navy and there were quite a few people from the Philippines. The whites, blacks and hispanics all looked down on them. My next door neighbors were Filipino and they were SO NICE. The husband was the only one that could speak English, but he gave me some great gardening tips and would bring over some really great Filipino vegetables that he grew. I learned how to make the best spring rolls on earth from my Filipino best friend I met at the Navy Exchange, his dad was in the Navy and he was a student at the University, absolutely brilliant guy.

When you confine yourself to your "own type" you lose out on so much. I feel sad for people that allow prejudice to rule their lives.

[Wardw]

Maybe we should all look forward to the future, say 100 years, when none of this will matter because the world will have become so much smaller and we will all be basicly the same color.
In Australia we had a politician who thankfully had a very short reign, who formed a political party based on what I would describe as racism. She pushed the right buttons with the racists after research showed that by 2030 I think it was, 1 in 4 Australians will be of Asian heritage. Thankfully, she was seen for what she is, a racist, as she was advocating many policies that would have taken us back to the stone ages.
Having said that, and speaking as a liberal non racist who has dated women of colour and is married to a Brasilian who is officialy classed as "morena", which we would define as "swarthy", the thought of my country no longer being "Anglo Saxon", makes me question our open immigration policies.
And even I can't help cringing..............................just a little, which is why I started this thread and still believe that in addition to racism being learned, I can't help but wonder if there is something happening at a much deeper level which we just don't want to admit.

[Evo]

which is why I started this thread and still believe that in addition to racism being learned, I can't help but wonder if there is something happening at a much deeper level which we just don't want to admit.Virtually every "race" or "ethnic group" has some prejudices against another group to some extent. The same with religion, politics, wealth. Perhaps it is "human" to want to feel superior. However, those we choose to "accept" and those we choose to "put down" are not inborn traits, they are learned.

It is difficult for most people to admit that we become this way and the hatred and distrust can be "unlearned". "That" is what people don't want to admit. They want to believe that their beliefs are real and true and the way nature intended. Saying "this is just the way humans are designed" is an excuse for their behavior and justifies not trying to change.

[tribdog]

My uncle got a Japanese wife about 50 years ago and from what I can remember of her she was amazingly racist. Couldn't stand seeing anyone in a mixed race relationship. Ironic that she never realized she was in one herself.

[russ_watters]

On yet another note, I was watching a presentation about chris rock the other day, and I find it very interesting how comedians can get up on stage and make fun of the white audience, and everyone accepts it. But (regardless of race) not the black audience. Chris rock did challenge the black audience, picking specific 'groups' to make fun of, and on many tours got booed quite a lot, and in others he became more popular for it. Chris Rock is a comedian, he's funny, and he's not racist. That's why whites (who have a sense of humor) like him even when he makes fun of them. But he's also socially conscious and some of his criticisms of the black community, even in the context of a stand-up comedy act, are for real. For that, he gets a mixed reception from blacks.

I like his comedy and I like his politics, but I can certainly see why some blacks would not.

[Astronuc]

Virtually every "race" or "ethnic group" has some prejudices against another group to some extent. The same with religion, politics, wealth. Perhaps it is "human" to want to feel superior. However, those we choose to "accept" and those we choose to "put down" are not inborn traits, they are learned.

It is difficult for most people to admit that we become this way and the hatred and distrust can be "unlearned". "That" is what people don't want to admit. They want to believe that their beliefs are real and true and the way nature intended. Saying "this is just the way humans are designed" is an excuse for their behavior and justifies not trying to change.How true. From my experience, it is based on deep insecurity. Racism seems to be worst where people have to struggle for a certain standard of living, and there seems to be a fear that success of others will somehow undermine one's own success. Eastern Europe and the former USSR providee a strong example of how people behave under conditions of deprivation.

the thought of my country no longer being "Anglo Saxon", makes me question our open immigration policies.Actually in 1999, the Anglo-Celtic population was about 70%. (http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/pnp/free/pnpv7n4/v7n4_3price.pdf) So what? I guess the shoe is on the other foot, i.e. it didn't seem to bother the Anglo-Celtic population that they were imposing themselves on the native population (ethnic cleansing and in some cases genocide). :grumpy:

I went back for a brief visit many years ago - and I suffered culture shock. I didn't belong there, anymore than I am where I am. Actually, I am at home wherever I happen to be, anywhere in the world, which basically means I am always an outsider except to my friends. If I were to return to Australia, it would be to the outback.

IIRC, Australia's immigration policy is pretty restrictive, unless one has money. :rolleyes: http://www.immi.gov.au/migrate/index.htm

The husband was the only one that could speak English, but he gave me some great gardening tips and would bring over some really great Filipino vegetables that he grew. I learned how to make the best spring rolls on earth from my Filipino best friend I met at the Navy Exchange, . . . . Really cool, Evo! :cool:

When you confine yourself to your "own type" you lose out on so much.Definitely.

[Janitor]

Virtually every "race" or "ethnic group" has some prejudices against another group to some extent...

Somebody I know was in Las Vegas last year. There was a major boxing match going on there. If I was a boxing fan, I would remember the names of the boxers, but I'm not a fan, so I don't. Anyway, he couldn't afford a ticket to the actual venue, so he settled for going to a hotel/casino that was broadcasting the fight live. Even that was something like 50 bucks. I asked him who most of the people were cheering for. With a pained look on his face (he is what I would call an idealistic liberal), he said the black fans were cheering for the black boxer and the Latino fans were cheering for the Latino fighter.

[Gokul43201]

Chris Rock makes at least as much fun of the blacks as he does the whites.

In Houston, TX where I grew up there is a very large Mexican (hispanic) community and they are very racist against blacks and vice versa, every night on the news it was a tally of how many blacks and hispanics had killed each other in gang related killings. They both hated the Vietnamese that started moving there.
Mightn't these have been turf wars rather than hate crimes ? Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised that gang members are racist.

[Evo]

Originally Posted by Evo
In Houston, TX where I grew up there is a very large Mexican (hispanic) community and they are very racist against blacks and vice versa, every night on the news it was a tally of how many blacks and hispanics had killed each other in gang related killings. They both hated the Vietnamese that started moving there.

Mightn't these have been turf wars rather than hate crimes ?No, at least in Houston, Mexicans hate blacks and the blacks hate the Mexicans (for the most part). Mexicans have special words for a mexican that would date a black. I use "Mexican" here because although we're supposed to say "hispanic", the Mexican culture in that part of Texas is unlike that in California, or the Latino (Puerto Rican) culture in Florida.

I got to know and be friends with enough people of Mexican heritage to know how they felt. They considered themselves above blacks. The two groups just didn't mix.

Of course you don't have middle and upper class Hispanics and blacks doing drive by shootings, it's mostly the gangs, but the prejudice is unfortunately still there.

[Joel]

It is difficult for most people to admit that we become this way and the hatred and distrust can be "unlearned". "That" is what people don't want to admit. They want to believe that their beliefs are real and true and the way nature intended. Saying "this is just the way humans are designed" is an excuse for their behavior and justifies not trying to change.

Very well said. It is our consciousness and ability to make a choice that separates us from animals, and hence it is no excuse to claim "it is just the way humans are designed", when we retain that right to chose in other matters. And it is off outmost importance that we challenge our decisions and views, because snap judgements are more than often based on stereotypes. But on the other hand it is understandable that we upphold our self esteem and view of the world through such stereotypes, because if our and other's view of ourselves and the world is too different, we feel distress of various levels.

But I would still like to stress number 42's point about young childrens intergroup behavior and that this, "In minimal groups despite lack of conflict between groups there was intergroup bias. Suggested prejudice was an inevitable result of making distinctions between groups and cognitive categorization" - Notes on prejudice, stereotypes and discrimination (http://www.oglethorpe.edu/faculty/~a_marks/Soc%20204/CHAPTER%2012%20PREJUDICE,%20STEREOTYPING,%20AND%20DISCRIMINATION.htm) is, as far as I know, very well supported, by numerous studies based on Social Identity Theory (SIT):

Social Identity Theory was developed by Tajfel and Turner in 1979. The theory was originally developed to understand the psychological basis of intergroup discrimination. Tajfel et al (1971) attempted to identify the minimal conditions that would lead members of one group to discriminate in favor of the ingroup to which they belonged and against another outgroup. - About SIT (http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Theory%20clusters/Interpersonal%20Communication%20and%20Relations/Social_Identity_Theory.doc/)

So, while a lot of particulary the racial prejudice is most surely learned, it seems we do have some form of not-learnt inclination to favour whatever group we identify with, because our tendency to cathegorize information and identify ourself in relation to it. However, this also suggests that we can overcome our prejudice through self-reflection and systematic processing (where we use less general cathegories or less stereotypes): Overcoming Automatically Activated Stereotypes—stereotypic thinking is reflexive and automatic, it can be overcome be deeper processing and conscious effort (akin to forming a more sophisticated impression after automatic corespondent inferences.

As well as through positive contact:What reduces bias?

...

Intergroup Contact: Getting to Know You to Change Stereotypes—contact hypothesis direct contact between members of different groups can reduce intergroup stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination. Introduce inconsistent information and thereby change stereotypes.
The same notes as above (Overcoming Automatically Activated Stereotypes—stereotypic thinking is reflexive and automatic, it can be overcome be deeper processing and conscious effort (akin to forming a more sophisticated impression after automatic corespondent inferences.)

[Wardw]

Actually, I am at home wherever I happen to be, anywhere in the world, which basically means I am always an outsider except to my friends.

Too True Astronuc, I feel the same. I love the buzz of arriving in a new country where I am forced to communicate in language other than oral (many years of theatre acting helps).
I immediatly look for the odd places to go, far from the tourist hangouts. I have been in some very dangerous locations and with a firm belief in karma, I have never been assaulted or robbed and have usually met the coolest people. Goethe was the original "universal man", I love the phrase. I have relatives in Scotland as my father's family emmigrated to Oz in the 50's as one of the 10 pound emmigrants and as such, I was brought up with Scottish culture (even played the bagpipes for some years). My mother's side was from Glostershire so I also have rellies there. I also follow the Oz news and like you, after just 12 years away, know that I would feel like an alien if I returned, so much changes so quickly. Or is it that our mindset changes so quickly when we are away from our birth countries. I prefer being a "universal man"..touche
Maybe everyone should be forced to change countries every 10 years. now there is a logistics challenge.
:cool:

[JasonRox]

I said none.

If you grow up with your parents making references to other groups (bad or good), you will develop racism.

Note: 2-3 years ago was the first I ever thought in the sense of "other" groups because my gf kept bringing it up. Yes, it didn't last.

My parents never talked about other groups, not even Italians! (Apparently, that's a big thing.) Although my mother did make a comment the other day I didn't like, I freaked out. All this time I thought we were in a stereotype free family. Boy, I'm not happy at all.

[Wardw]

The husband was the only one that could speak English, but he gave me some great gardening tips and would bring over some really great Filipino vegetables that he grew. I learned how to make the best spring rolls on earth from my Filipino best friend I met at the Navy Exchange,

Is that spring roll recipe in the public domain, should be, it's a public forum?? :tongue2:
Here in Brasil spring roll recipes are thin on the ground.
Don't they say in Asia that the quickest way to a thinking man's stomach is via a spring roll??....no....perhaps they should :biggrin:

[Wardw]

So what? I guess the shoe is on the other foot, i.e. it didn't seem to bother the Anglo-Celtic population that they were imposing themselves on the native population (ethnic cleansing and in some cases genocide).

You're right Astronuc, that's the problem and that's why I think it's deeper than the conscious mind will admit. I lived in Darwin for a couple of years as a kid, and used to play with the local chiefs's son, I even play the didge (try anyway).
But as you know, Oz has some very specific problems in this regard. I stayed in Cairns for 3 months doing an mainframe installation some years ago, and on dole day the local people come down from Port Douglas for the day, by taxi, make the driver wait until the dole cheque is cashed and then go and buy fish and chips liberaly washed down with the local brew and then hitch home, only to repeat it again the next fortnight. When the government gave out free homes to them some years ago in the North East, they light a fire on the living room floor to cook the lizard, trashed the house and go off on walkabout.
This is not a criticisim in any way. Their lifestyle is just so dam different, they think that if this this silly white man wants to give me cash and a house, fine, but don't expect me to think the same way about them as he does. It's our failing and it's easy to look back in history and point fingers, but what's the point. The problem is that no-one has yet come up with a solution.
And obviously this discription does not apply to all.
Hell even the last of the Amazon Indians here, some tribes only discovered in the 90's all get around now in shorts and baubles with cellphones. What do we do. Perhaps our eduation system is just not what they need. I don't have the answers to that but I'd sure as hell like to hear suggestions.
edit..perhaps we are the virus

[Astronuc]

When the government gave out free homes to them some years ago in the North East, they light a fire on the living room floor to cook the lizard, trashed the house and go off on walkabout.This is a viscerally sore point with me. Stupid white men! :grumpy:

Some people of Anglo and European ancestry seem to have a cultural arrogance (superiority complex) in which they believe their culture is vastly superior to other ethnic groups. Look at what the Brits and Dutch did in Africa and Asia, and the Anglos in Australia. Look at the Anglos and French in North America, and the Spanish and Portugese in South and Central America.

I am thoroughly appalled at the past treatment of aborigines in Australia. :grumpy: Why do the Anglo-Australians think that all they have to do is give them cash and a house and all is well? Personally, I'd prefer to go walkabout.

[Wardw]

Personally, I'd prefer to go walkabout.


A trip worth making, agreed, you, me and David. BTW, ever see, "Walkabout" with John Mellion??
Fine film, he went to the other world only a few years ago I think.

[Astronuc]

BTW, ever see, "Walkabout" with John Mellion??
I haven't seen the movie. Looks interesting.

A trip worth making, agreed, you, me and David.Definitely worthwhile. I'll have to ask nge-ni-wiin-ya (willa, yungara). I'll bring me karli (kyli), but I'll need to pick up some ka-ma and jek-kor-a (or kaiya to some). I used Bengarang. I come from southern Koori.

Every now and then I have to get away from 'civilization'. :wink:

[Wardw]

Definitely worthwhile. I'll have to ask nge-ni-wiin-ya (willa, yungara). I'll bring me karli (kyli), but I'll need to pick up some ka-ma and jek-kor-a (or kaiya to some). I used Bengarang. I come from southern Koori.

Careful, some will think we have a private language thing going.
The movie is a true Australian classic 1971 re the purpose of a walkabout. Surreal scenery. It was the movie that launched the career of David Gulpilil. (he had a cameo walk on role in the first Croc Dundee movie). On DVD or available on teh web I believe.

[Astronuc]

I'd love to meet David. He's done some great work. And it would be cool to go walkabout with him. I've always wanted to get up to Darwin.

[Christophe]

My uncle got a Japanese wife about 50 years ago and from what I can remember of her she was amazingly racist. Couldn't stand seeing anyone in a mixed race relationship. Ironic that she never realized she was in one herself.
Tribdog, you are very correct,
I have to also say that Japanese people are racist.
But I guess because their country is developed and
young people are taught more about theorems, morality
and plus, they are also mostly influenced by religious thoughts, especially Buddhism's (I really like this point..),
That I think is why Japanese people in particular,
and Asian people here in general think of different things
and other people in a much "softer" way when compared to those in America/Europe, and that there would not be traggedies like someone gets stopped in the street on his way home by a group of bastards with long iron sticks, sharp knifves in hand...which I guess people in North America (especially in most states of the US, or in big cities of Russia and England)

The problem in Japan I think is NATIONALISM, the same as the US; "creative" are unable to survive; "Japanese people are the better than others", this point is mostly approved by most of foreign students/people who now live in Japan..


Admittedly I love threads like this...

Christophe

[plus]

In whichever ethnic group you look, you will see that there are a few individuals who have racial hatred to other ethnic groups. To say that only the ethnic europeans have this phenomenon is ridiculous.

[Artman]

I worked as one of only a few white males in a minority owned engineering firm for three years. During that time I grew to notice color difference less and less.

One time one of the guys was trying to test me and he asked me if I liked working with black people more, or less, than working with white people. I told him, "I want to live in a world where color doesn't matter."

He said, "I like that answer."

I said, "It's true." And it was. I found that I had to make myself notice the color of the person, rather than that being the first thing I noticed.

I have since left that job (he was a bad business owner, bounced checks, etc.) and have helped three of the guys from that office find work where I work now. That was once an all white office, where prejudicical terms were fairly common. Now those comments are gone. I think working with other races help to bridge some of the gaps.

[tdunc]

I think there are different levels of racism. Im going to take a different viewpoint and say that a persons level of racism has more to do with awareness and perception that the people around them are 'different' rather than being taught. Racism can be taught hence taken to a new level, but I feel that everyone no matter what race you are has some degree of racism no matter how innocent or even ignorant of it they may be. If you feel bad because you might be somewhat racist, dont because it is completely natural. Take the animal world for instance, full of 'racism', if you dont look like the others you are look apon differently and treated differently, those are instinctive behaviors - to be curious and at the same time wary. A white rabbit will accept the company of another white rabbit without hesitation, along comes a black rabbit and he keeps his distance... Is that rabbit then racist? By definition yes, but that is what racism boils down to - willingness to accept or not accept.

[Evo]

A white rabbit will accept the company of another white rabbit without hesitation, along comes a black rabbit and he keeps his distance... Is that rabbit then racist? By definition yes, but that is what racism boils down to - willingness to accept or not accept.I have never seen that type of behavior in animals. :rolleyes:

[Chi Meson]

I worked as one of only a few white males in a minority owned engineering firm for three years. During that time I grew to notice color difference less and less.

One time one of the guys was trying to test me and he asked me if I liked working with black people more, or less, than working with white people. I told him, "I want to live in a world where color doesn't matter."

He said, "I like that answer."

I said, "It's true." And it was. I found that I had to make myself notice the color of the person, rather than that being the first thing I noticed.

I have since left that job (he was a bad business owner, bounced checks, etc.) and have helped three of the guys from that office find work where I work now. That was once an all white office, where prejudicical terms were fairly common. Now those comments are gone. I think working with other races help to bridge some of the gaps.

This is an example of what is referred to as a "colorblind society." It always seemed to me to be the most mature, human way to progress. But the "colorblind society" mindset has itself come under attack from some corners as being a way for "white people to shrug off the injustices of the past." (I forgot whose quote I paraphrased there).

This leaves me, personally, in a bind: how does one simultaneously treat everyone of every race equally without prejudice while acknowleging the fact that some people have a harder go of it simply becuase they are not white?

As a teacher I must recognize that some kids go home to a stuctureless household where homework is never done and the parents are abusive, while others (in the same classroom) go to their private bedrooms in a quiet neighborhood. If those two kids get the same score on a test, who really deserves a higher grade? I know I'm talking social class here, not color, but it's the same thing. Sometimes equality is not fair.

[Artman]

But the "colorblind society" mindset has itself come under attack from some corners as being a way for "white people to shrug off the injustices of the past." (I forgot whose quote I paraphrased there).I think this can lead to reverse discrimination, which is discrimination as well, and only creates resentment.

I think we should deal with people as individuals because to deal with them as a race instead, is to be prejudiced. I hope to not add to anyones troubles, whether they be black or white.