What Are We Entitled To and Why?

[Loren Booda]

To what are we entitled and why?

 

[franznietzsche]

To what are we entitled and why?

Absolutely nothing.

If you don't earn it, you don't deserve it. Period.

Well, i suppose except for your life in the first place.

 

[misskitty]

Do you mean rights or things ingeneral?

 

[misskitty]

Absolutely nothing.

If you don't earn it, you don't deserve it. Period.

Well, i suppose except for your life in the first place.

I can relate to that. However I am an American and I'm used to have rights.

 

[franznietzsche]

I can relate to that. However I am an American and I'm used to have rights.

You are NOT entitled to those rights. You have those rights only because people have fought and died for them. I really hope you don't actually believe that you deserve those rights inherently, independent of the sacrifices of others have made for your sake.

I am an American, and unlike some of the more 'european' members of my country(i mean this in terms of world view) i know that i only have the priveleges i have because of the sacrifices of those who fought and died for them. And that is the only reason. I am not entitled to those rights. We have those privileges only for as long as we are willing to fight and earn them.

 

[Polly]

I had had no idea of the American sense of entitlement until I watched an episode of American Idol. At least one of the contestants seemed to think just because she made it to the semi-final, she would automatically make it to the final. Both she and her mother believe that she is every bit as good as other finalists, IRRESPECTIVE of the judges' verdict. I think the show should actually be called "America's Messed Up People" .

 

[russ_watters]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

franz, rights, by definition are entitlements. That's a little different from the concept that "freedom ain't free."

 

[Moonbear]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

franz, rights, by definition are entitlements. That's a little different from the concept that "freedom ain't free."

I agree. Everyone is entitled to those most basic human rights (yes, by definition...lol).

 

[franznietzsche]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

franz, rights, by definition are entitlements. That's a little different from the concept that "freedom ain't free."

I don't consider them rights, i consider them privileges. Privileges whose only conditions are being alive, and being ready to always defend and fight for them.

To consider them entitlements is to breed the very attitude we don't want to encourage. The attitude that people deserve things from their government just because. Which they don't.

Remember, if you give a mouse a cookie...

The 'American Attitude' of entitlement is absolutely disgusting. Personally, I'm ashamed to be from the same solar system as some people.

 

[misskitty]

You are NOT entitled to those rights. You have those rights only because people have fought and died for them. I really hope you don't actually believe that you deserve those rights inherently, independent of the sacrifices of others have made for your sake.

I am an American, and unlike some of the more 'european' members of my country(i mean this in terms of world view) i know that i only have the priveleges i have because of the sacrifices of those who fought and died for them. And that is the only reason. I am not entitled to those rights. We have those privileges only for as long as we are willing to fight and earn them.

I know why I have those rights! Believe me I know more about the sacrifice that too many soldiers have made to keep those rights intact. I never said I was entitled to those right. I said i was used to having them. Do not put words in my mouth. I never said I was entitled to anything.

I know far too well about the sacrifies made to have them. I have too many people who are near and dear to me fighting to keep them. If I had my way, they wouldn't be. But we need to fight for them. I'm planning on serving time to earn those rights myself.

You don't deserve them more than I do.

 

[misskitty]

I very much agree with Moonbear and Russ. Following your pattern of though Franz, was what my previous post was addressing.

Basic human rights are those listed in the Bill of Rights. No one ever said that rights were going to be free. Everyone has to make sacrifices to earn them.

What have you sacrificed?

 

[Bartholomew]

Everyone deserves things from their government "just because" it's their government. Its sole purpose is to enable its citizens to have what they need.

 

[misskitty]

Hear Hear! I will completely agree with that.

 

[the number 42]

You are entitled to certain human rights, though we can expect to have to fight to get them or preserve them. I don't think your current government is doing much for human rights, to put it mildly.

 

[misskitty]

42, could you expand you idea a little bit more? That way I know exactly what your position is and I don't misintrepret it for something else.

 

[the number 42]

Ones that come to mind immediately are freedom of speech, and torture in Camp Delta.

 

[Moonbear]

I don't consider them rights, i consider them privileges. Privileges whose only conditions are being alive, and being ready to always defend and fight for them.

To consider them entitlements is to breed the very attitude we don't want to encourage. The attitude that people deserve things from their government just because. Which they don't.

That's a really sad attitude franz. There is a big difference between a right and a privilege. A privilege is something like being given a driver's license after you demonstrate you are safe to handle a motor vehicle, a right is something like not being thrown in prison for the rest of your life when you've done nothing wrong. And yes, I do very much want to encourage the belief that these are entitlements, which they are, lest someone come along and think they can be so easily taken away! It is because of this feeling and knowledge of entitlement that we will fight to maintain these rights. People don't sit back and allow them to be casually taken away, as well they shouldn't. As soon as you say they are a privilege, it implies it is okay to take them away.

Indeed, the U.S. stands today because people fought to secure these "inalienable rights."

Recall the wording of the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[the number 42]

Indeed, the U.S. stands today because people fought to secure these "inalienable rights."

Recall the wording of the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident...

I agree 100% with the spirit of this, but never trust an argument that starts off with 'self-evident truths' e.g. 'It is self-evident that the sun revolves about the Earth, as it manifestly rises in the east, circles overhead, and descends in the west'.

 

[russ_watters]

To consider them entitlements is to breed the very attitude we don't want to encourage. The attitude that people deserve things from their government just because. Which they don't.

Remember, if you give a mouse a cookie...

The 'American Attitude' of entitlement is absolutely disgusting. Personally, I'm ashamed to be from the same solar system as some people.

I agree that in the US people think they are entitled to things they aren't, but it seems like you're worried about a "slippery slope". Too late for that, though. Its already the modern liberal idea that entitlements are rights.

Anyway, the key difference is rights are not something given, but rather something not taken. That's while the Bill of Rights says things like "shall not be infringed". So, the right to life means no one is allowed to kill you - but it does not mean that the government is required to provide health care for you to keep you alive.

Everyone deserves things from their government "just because" it's their government. Its sole purpose is to enable its citizens to have what they need.

That idea originated (or maybe just got big) with Marx, and it isn't what western democracies are based on. Western democracies are based on protection of you (of your rights), not providing for you. Trying to mix the two (as modern liberals are doing) is extremely dangerous and harmful to a democracy. We are risking going down the path of the USSR - and I don't mean Stalin's murders, I mean the culture of mediocrity that goes hand-in-hand with the culture of entitlement.

I realize that social democracy works reasonably well for Europe, but it will not work for the US. We'll lose what has made us the world's economic superpower: economic freedom. Doubling (tripling?) our taxes, even though you get much of the money back through entitlements , would have an absolutely smothering effect on the US's entrepreneurial spirit.

 

[misskitty]

Very well put point Moonbear.

These rights are something that are guarnteed to you at birth. No one can take them away from you. The fact that people have spilled their blood and lost their lives on foreign and domestic soil falls under Freedom has a high price. You don't need to "earn" those rights. They are something that is endowed upon you. What you do with those rights is your business. Many people have made HUGE differences in the world with those rights...Martin Luther King Jr, Rosa Parks, Jackie Robinson, JFK, the list is highly extensive. You make sacrifices for those rights all the time without realizing it.

 

[Janitor]

The other night on Fox news, Bill O'Reilly was disgusted by a school district's decision that every student was entitled to a minimum test score of 50 percent. If the kid got every answer wrong, the teacher was obligated to mark the score as being 50%.

 

[misskitty]

I agree that in the US people think they are entitled to things they aren't, but it seems like you're worried about a "slippery slope". Too late for that, though. Its already the modern liberal idea that entitlements are rights.

Anyway, the key difference is rights are not something given, but rather something not taken. That's while the Bill of Rights says things like "shall not be infringed". So, the right to life means no one is allowed to kill you - but it does not mean that the government is required to provide health care for you to keep you alive. That idea originated (or maybe just got big) with Marx, and it isn't what western democracies are based on. Western democracies are based on protection of you (of your rights), not providing for you. Trying to mix the two (as modern liberals are doing) is extremely dangerous and harmful to a democracy. We are risking going down the path of the USSR - and I don't mean Stalin's murders, I mean the culture of mediocrity that goes hand-in-hand with the culture of entitlement.

I agree with this and what Moonbear said. This is what I was failing to articulate clearly.

 

[misskitty]

The other night on Fox news, Bill O'Reilly was disgusted by a school district's decision that every student was entitled to a minimum test score of 50 percent. If the kid got every answer wrong, the teacher was obligated to mark the score as being 50%.

Its still failing, but so the children who fail still fail. Its just doesn't kill them as badly.

 

[misskitty]

*so its not as bad and it doesn't kill their grade as much

 

[the number 42]

The other night on Fox news, Bill O'Reilly was disgusted by a school district's decision that every student was entitled to a minimum test score of 50 percent. If the kid got every answer wrong, the teacher was obligated to mark the score as being 50%.

This devalues everyone else's grades e.g. a pupil from last year who worked hard and got 50% will now be considered an idiot.

I hope this sort of thing isn't widespread. Is it?

 

[russ_watters]

I agree 100% with the spirit of this, but never trust an argument that starts off with 'self-evident truths' e.g. 'It is self-evident that the sun revolves about the Earth, as it manifestly rises in the east, circles overhead, and descends in the west'.

Every theory, whether its in physics or politics, starts with postulates. Frankly, I think that's one of the greatest things about our government - before our founders wrote the Constitution, they wrote a political theory to base it on. Agree with these postulates or not, its a wonderful thing that they were so direct in describing them. No room for confusion or interpretation.

 

[misskitty]

People need to stop trying to talk to me while I'm in the middle of a discussion!

When I was watching the news the other day, I learned of a teacher in Boston who wanted to remain in the United States because his country is in absolute turmoil. His visa ran out so he was going to be deported. His students then exercised their right to protest to keep him in the country. The man attempted to apply for political assylum but was denied. After further protesting by his pupils, I'm pretty sure his request for assylum was granted.

Is attempting to pursue a better life a right too?

 

[misskitty]

"I hope this sort of thing isn't widespread. Is it?"- the number 42

Not yet it isn't. I hope it won't be either.

 

[franznietzsche]

That's a really sad attitude franz. There is a big difference between a right and a privilege. A privilege is something like being given a driver's license after you demonstrate you are safe to handle a motor vehicle, a right is something like not being thrown in prison for the rest of your life when you've done nothing wrong.

You misunderstand me completely.

And yes, I do very much want to encourage the belief that these are entitlements, which they are, lest someone come along and think they can be so easily taken away! It is because of this feeling and knowledge of entitlement that we will fight to maintain these rights.

No, a sense of entitlement just makes people whine like 3 year olds.

People don't sit back and allow them to be casually taken away, as well they shouldn't. As soon as you say they are a privilege, it implies it is okay to take them away.[?QUOTE]

No it doesn't.

I agree that in the US people think they are entitled to things they aren't, but it seems like you're worried about a "slippery slope". Too late for that, though. Its already the modern liberal idea that entitlements are rights.

That is exactly what I'm worried about.

That idea originated (or maybe just got big) with Marx, and it isn't what western democracies are based on. Western democracies are based on protection of you (of your rights), not providing for you.[?QUOTE]

I hope you don't expect him to actually know that. Its been well established that certain liberal members here have no understanding of history whatsoever, and spew all kinds of garbage, without knowing anything about historical context.

Trying to mix the two (as modern liberals are doing) is extremely dangerous and harmful to a democracy. We are risking going down the path of the USSR - and I don't mean Stalin's murders, I mean the culture of mediocrity that goes hand-in-hand with the culture of entitlement.

Which is exactly why i refuse to ever consider anything an entitlement. It is a privilege to have those 'rights', and one that was attained with blood. And to breed the idea of entitlement will breed complacency.

 

[russ_watters]

This devalues everyone else's grades e.g. a pupil from last year who worked hard and got 50% will now be considered an idiot.

I hope this sort of thing isn't widespread. Is it?

Not that specifically, but grade inflation, points for trying, "participation trophies," etc., are very widespread and they are a huge problem. The pendulum may be starting to swing back, but there is a whole generation of school-aged Americans who have quite literally *never* experienced failure. When they get to college, they are utterly unprepared for the blunt reality that they aren't perfect, and in a lot of cases, fail pretty severely.

This is a manifestation of the culture of mediocrity bred by our culture of entitlement.