A question concerning density, mathematical proof.

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of density, the nature of "empty space," and the relationship between mathematical models and physical reality. Participants explore the implications of infinite divisibility in mathematics and its potential impact on the understanding of matter and density, particularly in relation to black holes and singularities.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the existence of "empty space," arguing that if nothingness cannot exist, then matter must be infinitely dense, challenging the conventional understanding of density in solids, liquids, and gases.
  • Another participant asserts that there is a distinction between mathematical models and physical reality, suggesting that confusing the two can lead to misunderstandings about density and the nature of matter.
  • A participant expresses skepticism about the consistency of mathematics with reality, proposing that if mathematics were consistent, it would imply that matter is infinitely dense and that "empty space" does not exist.
  • Further clarification is provided that multiple mathematical models can represent the same physical facts, and no model perfectly captures reality due to the limitations of measurements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of mathematical models in relation to physical reality. There is no consensus on whether matter can be considered infinitely dense or if "empty space" can be dismissed as non-existent.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of mathematical models in accurately representing physical facts, emphasizing the role of measurement imperfections and the variability of models.

Dragongod
Messages
51
Reaction score
0
Current science describes a solid, liquid, and gas, as having different densities. Solids have the highest density, then comes liquids, and finally gases. They say in between the particles lies "empty space." Can someone please describe to me the properties of "empty space" because as fas as I can logically reason, its impossible for "nothingness" (the absense of matter and energy)" to exist.

Also, mathematics currently states that one can divide infinitely into any value. Doesn't this show that matter is already infinitely dense, meaning that "empty space" (the absense of matter and energy) doesn't actually exist. Doesn't this basically state that matter is filled infinitely with more matter? If this is true then Stephen Hawking's definition of a black hole having a singularity would not hold up because all matter would already be a singularity(infinite matter, no room for empty space) in of itself.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Dragongod said:
Also, mathematics currently states that one can divide infinitely into any value. Doesn't this show that matter is already infinitely dense, meaning that "empty space" (the absense of matter and energy) doesn't actually exist. Doesn't this basically state that matter is filled infinitely with more matter?
No, you are confusing a mathematical MODEL with reality.
 
lol HAHAHAHA, I am confusing a mathematical model with reality. If that is true doesn't that show that math isn't consistent with reality and therefore neither are the formulas we use in physics to determine reality. As far as I know mathematicians and physicists would greatly disagree with you. But this is another topic. Let's just say mathematics is consistent with reality. If it is, just supposing, wouldn't my conclusion be right. Wouldn't it mean that matter is already infinitely dense, that "empty space" doesn't actually exist.
 
Dragongod said:
lol HAHAHAHA, I am confusing a mathematical model with reality. If that is true doesn't that show that math isn't consistent with reality and therefore neither are the formulas we use in physics to determine reality. As far as I know mathematicians and physicists would greatly disagree with you. But this is another topic. Let's just say mathematics is consistent with reality. If it is, just supposing, wouldn't my conclusion be right. Wouldn't it mean that matter is already infinitely dense, that "empty space" doesn't actually exist.


No, that simply says that "reality" and a mathematical model for reality are not the same thing. The fact is that there exist many different mathematical models for the same "physical facts" (which is what I think you mean by "reality"). No mathematical model can fit any physical facts perfectly because physical facts are always based on imperfect measurements.

I'm not sure what you mean by " Let's just say mathematics is consistent with reality. " Different mathematical models match "reality" to differing degrees of accuracy. I don't know of any mathematical model that says "matter is already infinitely dense" (I don't even know any mathematical model in which "infinitely dense" is defined) so I don't see how saying a mathematical model is consistent with reality would lead one to conclude that.
 

Similar threads

Mathematica A question concerning density, mathematical proof.
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
Is mathematics invented or discovered?
  • · Replies 64 ·
3
Replies
64
Views
5K
Undergrad Is there a zero-mass, vacuum Schwarzschild GR solution?
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
Undergrad The initial density of an object and its compression into a black hole
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
7K
Undergrad Do Black Holes Exist? | Physics & Stephen Hawking
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Mathematica How to type mathematical equations using LaTeX
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Undergrad Kerr disputes singularities in Kerr Black Holes
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
Graduate Does there exist a proof for these conjectures?
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Graduate Understanding Big Bang Singularity: Physics Forums Q&A
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
7K
Can Tiny Planetoids with High Density Retain an Argon-Oxygen Atmosphere?
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
4K