View Full Version : In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)
Two years ago , An Israeli army bulldozer crushed Rachel Corrie as she tried to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home.
((Friday, March 18, 2005
Corrie family seeks answers at hearing
ELLYN FERGUSON
GANNETT NEWS SERVICE
WASHINGTON -- The family of Rachel Corrie continued Thursday to press for a more thorough investigation into the 2003 death of The Evergreen State College student in the Gaza Strip. ))
Website of Rachel
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/
last minutes before death of Rachel with pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Last emial of RACHEL:
((February 7 2003
Hi friends and family, and others,
I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago. ))
The Death of Rachel Corrie
David Rovics
When she sat down in the dirt
In front of your machine
A lovely woman dressed in red
You in military green
If you had met her in Jerusalem
You might have asked her on a date
But here you were in Gaza
Rolling towards the gate
As your foot went to the floor
Did you recall her eyes
Did her gaze remind you
That you've become what you despise
As you rolled on towards this woman
And ignored all the shouts to stop
Did you feel a shred of doubt
As you watched her body drop
And as your Caterpillar tracks
Upon her body pressed
With twenty tons of deadly force
Crushed the bones within her chest
Could you feel the contours of her face
As you took her life away
Did you serve your country well
On that cool spring day
And when you went back across the Green Line
Back to the open shore
Did you think that this was just another day
In a dirty war
And when you looked out on the water
Did you feel an empty void
Or was it just one more life you've taken
One more home destroyed
Created March, 2003
Copyright David Rovics 2003, all rights reserved
russ_watters
Apr15-05, 08:10 PM
We've discussed this before: don't stand in front of a moving buldozer. Its inherrently dangerous.
Dayle Record
Apr15-05, 08:23 PM
The real epiphany is, don't look for humanity where none exists. There is strength in numbers, fight the good fight, but make it count. The sum of your life's efforts can be great, if you persist, and live your life, and work for the good.
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21
Apr17-05, 09:10 PM
natural selection at work, people. don't stand infront of a very large moving vehicle unless you want to die. In the US the tank would have stopped because of lawyers, but israel is different.
compassion is worthless
Fibonacci
We've discussed this before: don't stand in front of a moving buldozer. Its inherrently dangerous.
Well sure. You can also say, "don't piss off Roman governors, or they'll nail your *** to the tree," or "don't try to challenge two hundred years of racial segregation or some sniper will shoot your ***" or "don't work in a high rise office building that's already been hit once by terrorists, cause you know they're going to try again," or "don't wear a miniskirt if you don't want to get raped."
It's not like it's the victim's fault.
One can also say "Don't jump off a cliff, 'cause landing hurts!", or "Don't run into moving traffic!"
Are those also not the victim's fault? :tongue:
One can also say "Don't jump off a cliff, 'cause landing hurts!", or "Don't run into moving traffic!"
Are those also not the victim's fault? :tongue:
A more appropriate quote would be "don't stand next to a cliff, somebody will push you off" after somebody pushes a person of the cliff.
It's not like Rachel Corrie put the bulldoser in gear and then ran in front of the thing.
She still ran out in front of it after it was moving.
No, it's more like she put herself in front of a moving vehicle.
So did the guy during the Tianamen square massacre. Fortunately the guy who was driving the tank decided not to commit murder.
FredGarvin
Apr20-05, 05:41 PM
How in the hell is a suit filed against Catepillar going to solve anything? Stupid, stupid girl.
The Rev
Apr20-05, 05:45 PM
The real epiphany is, don't look for humanity where none exists.
Brilliant.
If only people with compassion could see those without it for what they are, without having to find out the hard way.
\Psi
The Rev
Pengwuino
Apr20-05, 05:50 PM
Ah yes, throwing away your life for a cause you probably know little about. Wish people would cherish their own lives more then people like this girl do
Ah yes, throwing away your life for a cause you probably know little about. Wish people would cherish their own lives more then people like this girl do
On the contrary, I presume Rachel Corrie knew quite a bit about what the cause was. I wish people cared as much about other people as Rachel Corrie did.
klusener
Apr20-05, 08:42 PM
exactly, she cared enough, loved those people so much, and believed in their cause with so much passion that she was willing to die for them...
russ_watters
Apr20-05, 09:14 PM
So did the guy during the Tianamen square massacre. Fortunately the guy who was driving the tank decided not to commit murder. That's a word that has a pretty specific legal definition: http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect07.htm
Just to be clear: you are operating under the assumption that the driver purposefully killed her? Do you have any evidence of that?
A buddy of mine was not paying attention one day on a dock (he was in the Navy) and a crane operator lowered an outrigger onto his foot, crushing it. The difference between that and this case is that Rachel Corrie knowingly and purposefully put herself into a situation where her life was at risk, while my buddy just plain wasn't paying attention. Rachel Corrie had complete control over her level of risk and consciously chose to risk her life. Of that, we are certain.
What we don't know for sure is the intent and control of the situation that the driver of the buldozer had. However, in every legal system I'm aware of, until it can be proven that he intended to kill her (murder) or was willfully neglegent in avoiding her (that's not murder, that's homicide), we must assume he did not.
There's a number of eye witness accounts swearing that the driver was well aware that he was running her over.
So it's their stories versus the driver's.
Given there's no chance of prosecution, even if the guy did in fact murder her, there's no reason to wait for a trial.
Pengwuino
Apr21-05, 12:32 AM
Did he tell people he knew she was there? My god... that thing is soooooooooooo big, bigger then my damn house.
And id bet my money on her not knowing what she was fighting for and her idea of it being a 'righteous enough cause' to die for being rather wrong. No one can intently look upon the situation between the 2 countries and say anyones side is right enough to give their lives up like that. She really wants to do something about it, go put her body infront of the muzzle of a militants RPG launcher or go protest out of Arafats compound when he was around.
russ_watters
Apr21-05, 02:13 AM
There's a number of eye witness accounts swearing that the driver was well aware that he was running her over.
So it's their stories versus the driver's.
Given there's no chance of prosecution, even if the guy did in fact murder her, there's no reason to wait for a trial. Fine - as long as you concede you're making an assumption (though your assumption still doesn't support "murder"). I'll choose to make the opposite one, and there are eyewitness accounts that support it as well. The difference? My assumption has legal standing - yours doesn't. Your assumption absolves Rachel of personal responsibility for her reckless actions. Mine doesn't.
In honor of "The Other Rachels":
"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)
Burnsys
Apr21-05, 07:57 AM
You can also say: Dont stay inside of your own house if it is going to be buldozed by the IDF....
Or don't stay in your own house if you are a jew and you are in the nazi germany. couse you are going to be taken to the gas chamber.....
http://www.jewsrenounce.org/bulldozer.gif
Dear Kat, I will divide my answer into two parts:
You mentioned those Israeli victims, but who forced them to live in illegal militant settlements in occupied land, which are legal target for resistance according to international laws? If you go to live in Falluja and rise American flag in your flat with poster ‘’death for Iraqi’’ then you are responsible about any harm of you and your family? Israel is using those civilians as ‘’human shield’’ in the illegal settlement by offering low price flat with no tax.
Compare with those who justifying murdering of Rachel (peace activist) who stay legally in Gaza and those illegal settlers , who decided to live with weapons in hostile environment to steal the land and the resources of the people of WB and Gaza.
1. Rachel Thaler, from Ginot Shomron (illegal settlement in West Bank; her parents should not let her to live illegally among extremist Jews militants who want to kill the Palestinian and to steal their lands!)
2. Racheli Levi has been killed on Wednesday, February 14th 2001 by a Palestinian bus driver The bus attack killed 8 people :
7 soldiers and 1 civilian. (She should not stand among the solider in battlefield (occupied land)
http://vassilovski.com/harpaz/racheli/poems/poems/about.html
3. Rachel Levy; killed in Kiryat Hyoval (illegal settlement in East Jerusalem!)
4. Rachel Gavish : From Elon Morieh (Illegal settlement near Nablus!! )
5. Rachel Charhi : Tel Aviv
6. Rachel Shabo : From Itmar ( illegal settlement which is center of Jews terrorist near Nablus !)
This means , the Palestinian only responsible about death of Rachel Charhi in Tel Aviv, while 5 Rachels are put into ‘’illegal settlements among Jews militants who aim to kill the Palestinian. Those 5 Rcahels are victims of Israeli government who send them to live in the occupied land!
In honor of "The Other Rachels":
"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)
Those who have little knowledge about Jews illegal squatters in WB and Gaza can read these links to see from which communities the 5 Rcahels came:
Example of Jews settelers:
Pictures of settelers stealing the Palestinian olives crops and looking for people to murder:
http://www.palsolidarity.org/portal/alias__Rainbow/lang__en-US/tabID__3442/DesktopDefault.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre
Most of those Jews settelers belong to Kach and Kahane Chai
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm
Jews setteler child celebrate Burim !!
http://www.time.com/time/potw/20040312/6.html
Documentary movie shows Jews settlers planning to plant bombs in primary girls’ Palestinian school in East Jerusalem.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/
The last part of my answer should include names of thousands of Palestinian kids and women who murdered by Israeli solids and settlers in last 5 years, but I think everybody knows that Israel murdered dozen of Palestinian for every Jews victim.
This means for every Jews Rachel, there are many Palestinian Fatima murdered with no reason!!
Unless Mrs. Kat does not believe blood of human are equal, especially this is the idea of ultra orthodox Jews who still believe in the myth of ''god chosen nation''.
Fine - as long as you concede you're making an assumption (though your assumption still doesn't support "murder"). I'll choose to make the opposite one, and there are eyewitness accounts that support it as well. The difference? My assumption has legal standing - yours doesn't. Your assumption absolves Rachel of personal responsibility for her reckless actions. Mine doesn't.
Hmm, yes, Rachel Corrie is guilty of reckless endangerment, meanwhile absolving the driver of second degree murder. Or suicide. Despite not being convicted. That's fine if it's your opinion, but let's not pretend it has any legal or moral standing.
In honor of "The Other Rachels":
"1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6
while sitting at home)
"
(From Tom Gross)
And is "Rachel" a popular Palestinian name too?
Pengwuino
Apr21-05, 01:51 PM
@Bilal
I remember you complaining on a different thread that the attack on Iraq was "illegal" according to "international law". Now really... i would love to hear what these laws are and who is suppose to enforce them because ir eally want to know what organization says declaring war on a nation who attempted to assassinate your leadership is illegal while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?
Burnsys
Apr21-05, 02:25 PM
@Bilal
I remember you complaining on a different thread that the attack on Iraq was "illegal" according to "international law". Now really... i would love to hear what these laws are and who is suppose to enforce them because ir eally want to know what organization says declaring war on a nation who attempted to assassinate your leadership is illegal while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?
nations do not attempt to asesinate political figures, goverments of nations, inteligence agencies, or military branches do. for example the CIA:
Outlook: Assassination and Foreign Policy
A Senate select committee, after uncovering the history of half a dozen American plots to assassinate foreign leaders
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36992-2004Apr23.html
US involvement in Foreign assassinations or attempts
-- prohibited by Presidential decree since 1976 --
1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1980-86 - Moammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya, numerous attempts
1982 - Ayatollah Khomeine, leader of Iran
1983 - General Ahmed Dlimi, Army commander of Morocco
1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 - All nine leaders of the Nicaraguan National Directorate
1985 - Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanon Shiite leader
1991 - Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq
1998 - Osama bin Laden, former US trained "freedom fighter".
1999 - Slobodan Mlosevic, President of Yugoslavia
------------------------------------------------
those inocent civilians are not inocent, they are comiting a crime, becouse they are in ilegals settlements, anyway of course they don't deserve the death penalty, but palestinian suicide bombings are mostly directed to idf personal or goverment oficials, so acording to US Doctrine, those civilians could be called colateral damage. in that case, america has done much much more colateral damage that palestine only in irak...
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021107-042725-6586r
"We are basically opening up and crafting a new tool and tactic which is not for (the United States) alone to use," Silliman said. "The United States is not the only one that can do this (assasination of foreing leaders). We may be putting our own leadership at risk."
"It is difficult to distinguish what we did in Yemen from what Israel has done with the Palestinians with targeted killings," Silliman told UPI.
As recently as July, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer criticized Israel for launching a "heavy handed" attack that killed Salah Shehadeh, the top commander of Hamas' military wing, Izzadine el-Qassa, in Gaza.
The attack by an F-16 with a single 2,000-lb bomb destroyed four buildings killing 14 others, including nine children, and wounding as many as 100, Palestinian authorities said at the time.
Pengwuino
Apr21-05, 02:33 PM
Pff, what ever happened to our no-assassination policy. Looks like everyone ignored that.
And i dont see how running into a sinagog (sp?) or a cafe and restaurant full of civilians is exactly directed at any military personel. I dont remember any tanks going up to a nightclub and blowing it to smitherines in iraq or running in and spraying bullets into a movie theatre. But then again supposedly i dont get the whole, factful, unbiased information like those who watch Al Jazeera
Add: I obviously meant the government or more specifically, the military. Obviously every member of a nation isnt running after leaders attempting to kill them. I figured it was assumed what i meant.
sid_galt
Apr21-05, 03:01 PM
Those who have little knowledge about Jews illegal squatters in WB and Gaza can read these links to see from which communities the 5 Rcahels came:
Example of Jews settelers:
Pictures of settelers stealing the Palestinian olives crops and looking for people to murder:
http://www.palsolidarity.org/portal/alias__Rainbow/lang__en-US/tabID__3442/DesktopDefault.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre
Most of those Jews settelers belong to Kach and Kahane Chai
http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/kach.htm
Jews setteler child celebrate Burim !!
http://www.time.com/time/potw/20040312/6.html
Documentary movie shows Jews settlers planning to plant bombs in primary girls’ Palestinian school in East Jerusalem.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/view/
I will only responsd to these with this
Palestinian children being trained for terrorism (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/)
instead of giving them 3 billions $ a year we should send them this.
sid_galt
Apr21-05, 03:03 PM
2. Racheli Levi has been killed on Wednesday, February 14th 2001 by a Palestinian bus driver The bus attack killed 8 people :
7 soldiers and 1 civilian. (She should not stand among the solider in battlefield (occupied land)
http://vassilovski.com/harpaz/racheli/poems/poems/about.html
So Racheli Levi cannot stand in a battlefield and is responsible for her death but Rachel Corrie has full rights to stand infront of a moving bulldozer, is absolved of all responsibility and is a goddess?
Edit: Levi was not standing in a battlefield. She was just WAITING for a bus. Waiting for a bus with a few soldiers around is not equal to standing in a battlefield.
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen the double-standard demonstrated this clearly before!
sid_galt
Apr21-05, 04:28 PM
This means , the Palestinian only responsible about death of Rachel Charhi in Tel Aviv, while 5 Rachels are put into ‘’illegal settlements among Jews militants who aim to kill the Palestinian. Those 5 Rcahels are victims of Israeli government who send them to live in the occupied land!
Do you know the meaning of free will and freedom?
All the Rachels here CHOSE to be where they are. Neither the Israeli government nor the Palestinian administration force the Rachels to be where they were.
The only difference is that the Israeli Rachels were MURDERED while Rachel Corrie CHOSE to stand in front of a bulldozer and died. Corrie IS responsible for her death. The other Rachels are not.
And then you go on and put Rachel Corrie in the same league as the other Rachels? How?
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21
Apr21-05, 05:36 PM
you wanna know what i think?
Let them do thier own thing, and stay out.
Know why?
If you do that, then one country (Israel, because thier millitary is superior) would run right through the middle east and take care of the problim for the us.
You know what we do next?
Get a line of people with flamethrowers and toarch the place.
Know what then?
Problim solved!
Fibonacci
There are no innocent people in the settlements. They can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ....etc) but surely they have no right to live on stolen land and to kill the native people. I wish you check my links again about settlers to see what kind of human are they.
If any American family decided to steal land in Iraq by force and to live there, then they are not innocent, and they responsible about the death of their kids. It is the same situation in WB and Gaza. This is Palestinian land, and the extremist Israeli have no right to steal 80% of water resources and 60% of lands...
It was the same story of France in Algeria, and we know what the fate of French settlers.... they left without getting compensation after 130 years of occupation.
I never met my aunt who lives in Israel, just 10 km far from my town, because I am not allowed to travel, to live or to buy land in Israel. So why the Israeli can take the best lands and most water resources in WB and Gaza which are considered by all world countries as Palestinian occupied land?
Jews are welcomed to live in my country (Palestine) as peaceful citizens, the same as Muslims, Christian , non religious, Sumarian Jews .... but they have no right to live as militant racist settlers who want to kick us out of our country to create pure Jews State. I support completely to have one country for all communities with equal rights for all people whatever their religion or race
@Bilal
.... while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?
It work also on the other side … see the attached links and pictures of Jews settlers teaching their kids terrorism, hate and how to steal the houses and lands of Palestinian.
In religious Jews schools of settlers, the children of primary schools should join camps to learn how to use the different types of weapons and how to kill the Palestinian.
I know there is some silly Palestinian in Gaza trying to teach the children how to use guns, but here are two major differences between them and the settlers:
1- Settlers teach their kids how to kill the Palestinian and to clean what called ‘’the biblical Jews Land” from the non Jews ‘’Goyim’’, while the Palestinian teach their kids how to protect the lands of their fathers and their lives from the invaders.
2- During Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, 20000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians were killed by the Israeli and their Lebanese alliance. Only the kids who trained how to use RPG and guns are saved, while the kids who joined the school to learn music and songs are murdered like sheep. All these crimes got complete support of USA. Therefore if you live in jungle world you should teach your kids how to protect their lives from human wolves.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1395080.stm
Pictures of Jews settelers teaching their kids terrorism:
http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg
http://www.msn.co.il/pidl/1298484/settelers_N.jpg
http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/photos%20for%20web/graffitti%20in%20Hebron-%20KILL%20ARABS%20(8-13-03).jpg
I will only responsd to these with this
Palestinian children being trained for terrorism (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/)
Personally, I am sad for the death of any human in this tragedy conflict but we have to present the different views instead of brainwashing by media.
It is clear that bus driver goal is to kill the 7 occupation soldiers, but they shot him and he lost control on his bus , so how we know whether he means to kill this women or just because he lost control? The bus continued moving after his death, which mean there are possibility that this women died after the driver?
The Bulldozer driver was not under attack... He just did not care about few stupid people defending the poor Palestinian family!!!
Examples of Israeli Bulldozers crimes:
Important links:
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines02/1203-03.htm
Family Tells How Israelis Buried Deaf Father Alive
((Beside the pile of flattened concrete, all that was left of his home, Maher Salem described yesterday how his 68-year-old father was killed when the Israeli army demolished the house on top of him. When he found his father, Mr Salem said, the old man's head was "like a bar of chocolate, it was only two centimetres thick".))
((It would not be the first time claims of this sort turned out to be true: in Nablus in April, eight members of a single family died when a soldier bulldozed their house on top of them. Their bodies were found, and the case has been well documented by international human rights groups.))
IOF buries family alive under demolished home
http://www.geocities.com/radicalcalendar/buries.html
So Racheli Levi cannot stand in a battlefield and is responsible for her death but Rachel Corrie has full rights to stand infront of a moving bulldozer, is absolved of all responsibility and is a goddess?
Edit: Levi was not standing in a battlefield. She was just WAITING for a bus. Waiting for a bus with a few soldiers around is not equal to standing in a battlefield.
Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:
There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.
Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.
I'm beginning to believe it.
I do not want to repeat 1 million times...
There is Israel on 78% of Historical Palestine
There West Bank and Gaza, which considered “occupied Land” by all world countries (including USA and UN), 22% of historical Palestine
Those Rachels can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ... ) the same as you (American) Can live in NY, Texas .. etc, but it is their mistake to live ''illegally'' in occupied Palestinian land to steal the land of Palestinian and to force them to terrorize them (see my links again about settlers!!!). It is as you (American) take your family with guns to live in Falluja and Baghdad because your army occupy that country!!
Rachels have no right to live in Palestine as settlers, but they can live as peaceful Palestinian Jews, which is not the case here!!
Differences between Rachel the ‘’American peace activists’’ and Rachesl ‘’the settelers‘’ are :
1) Rachel the American do not hate the Jews (may be she is from Jews origin) , she came to Palestine by (Visa) from the Israeli authority. She is welcomed by Palestinian. This means she had no enemies in Palestine/Israel. Rachel wanted to spread peace between Palestine and Israel. She wants to see the reality on ground instead to here the propaganda and lies in American media. She is friend of every Palestinian and every peace lover Israeli. Her heart broken by death of every Israeli/Palestinian, because they love them as human. She is the sound of conscience of every peace lover.
2) Rachels ‘’the settlers’’, came illegally to live in WB and Gaza, most of them are members in Jews terrorists groups (Kach and Kahana Hai) . These groups killed Rabin (former Israeli PM) and responsible about daily crimes in Palestine. The goal of these Rachels is to force the non Jews to immigrate and to steal their houses and land. They and their cousins are usually have weapons to kill the Palestinian and to destroy their crops. They are not welcomed by Palestinian, not because they are Jews, but because they want to ‘’annihilate’’ them!!
Do you know the meaning of free will and freedom?
All the Rachels here CHOSE to be where they are. Neither the Israeli government nor the Palestinian administration force the Rachels to be where they were.
The only difference is that the Israeli Rachels were MURDERED while Rachel Corrie CHOSE to stand in front of a bulldozer and died. Corrie IS responsible for her death. The other Rachels are not.
And then you go on and put Rachel Corrie in the same league as the other Rachels? How?
Israel is tiny country, and Henry Kissinger (former American Jews Minister) : Israel can not survive more than 6 months without the help of USA!!
Israel can not involve in nuclear or chemical war, because small nuke is enough to end them.
USA who working hard for Israel by destroying Iraq and making pressure and siege on Iran and Syria ....
This is the reason why USA is hated in ME, because all Israeli crimes and the ''ethic cleansing'' of Palestinian people are done by American military/politically/financially/diplomatically support.
We are not jealous from American freedom, but we reject the crimes of and the aggression of your politician in last several decades..
you wanna know what i think?
Let them do thier own thing, and stay out.
Know why?
If you do that, then one country (Israel, because thier millitary is superior) would run right through the middle east and take care of the problim for the us.
You know what we do next?
Get a line of people with flamethrowers and toarch the place.
Know what then?
Problim solved!
Fibonacci
FIRST:
Are you denying that:
There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.
et cetera.
************************************************** ********
SECOND:
Could you ask the Jews why they teach their kids to hate the NAZI German?
Could you ask the ''Red Indian'' why they do not like ''Cowboys''?
Could you ask the Afro American why they are not proud by those who brought their families to work in cotton farms?
************************************************** ********
THIRD
Hate exist in both societies, the difference that Israeli hate is build on ''myth'' of superior Jews and savages Palestinian , while the Palestinian anger based on the fact that those ''strangers'' invaded their homeland and kicked 60% of Palestinian homes to establish ‘’Jews Ghetto State ’’ , then they occupied the rest of Palestine and they continue their daily crimes since decades.
We did not go to Poland, Germany, NY , Holland .... to kill the Zionists. We did not burn 6 Millions Jews in 2WW, but they came to our land to steal it and create ''Jews homeland'' based on, biblical myth and racist superiority!!
they lived 2000 ago on part of Palestine, but if we should accept to be enough reason to kick the Palestinian out of their country, then America should not be exist also, and most of world countries!! Because another nations lived there 2000 years ago!!
Palestinian are nation from Muslims, Christian, Jews, non religious..... they are not just ''religious'' group who want to create ''Ghetto State'' in ME by murdering another people who lived hundreds of years in their homeland!!
Palestinian do not hate Jews because they are Jews , but because they are racist Zionist who wanted to destroy us.
Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:
There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.
Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.
I'm beginning to believe it.
There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.
I neither confirm nor deny these statements. It would surprise me if they were false, though.
Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:
There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.
I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea? There are 9 millions Palestinian, we could have several thousands crazy people as in America, or any other country. I did not hear about ‘’Nation of peace angles!!’’
I will answer honestly from my personal experience:
Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:
There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews..
No need to teach them hatred of Jews, we used to see the Jews in our streets every day mistreating people, hitting our parent, teachers, shooting at houses for no reason , shouting ‘’death for Palestinian “ since we were kids. Of course our parents used to tell us those are called Jews. Sometimes we think that Jews is kind of ''savage group'' whom know nothing except killing others based on what we see.
In 1967, the Zionists destroyed my town and gave 1 hour to all people to leave … after that they murdered all the people they found in the town. Then they changed the name of the town and rebuild new Jews settlements after destruction of all historical sites (Roman Castle and Ottoman Palaces) … Due to the spread of diseases among the refugees, UN made pressure on Israel. They returned back after 80 days of miserable life. They found their town (5000 years old) removed from the surface of the earth!!)
May be I am lucky that my family succeeded to return back, but there are 530 Palestinian towns not exist anymore, even they removed them from Atlas and history books.
It was sad situation but unavoidable ... t we had peaceful Jews friends and we used to play with their kids also ... so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
Define the ''terrorism'' , if you call defending your homeland and your nation is terrorism , then the answer ''YES'', but if you define it as targeting civilian for fun , I do not think so ... I did not hear that Palestinian targeting Swedish, Russian, Brazilian ... they targeting the Israeli because of the conflict. End the occupation or give the Palestinian enough weapons, then you will not hear about what you call it ‘’terrorism’’
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.
They used to teach us that Jews are powerful and they can murder all the Palestinian, so they scared us by Jews and asked us to avoid them.
I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea?
Right -- I believe that too.
Maybe you'll understand my attitude if you keep this fact in mind...
Every time someone mentions the Palestinian extremists, you go off and talk about Palestinians defending themselves, et cetera. It's as if it pains you to admit that there really are crazy Palestinian extremists out there.
Also, you love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists... but we already know there are crazy Jewish extremists, just as there are crazy extremists from every nation.
This is from where the double-standard accusation comes. You, and many other apologists for the Palestinians love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists, but never like to talk about the crazy Palestinian extremists. The acceptable topics of discussion are Palestinian acts that aren't extremism, and Jewish acts that are extremism. Any discussion of extremist Palestinian acts are immediately derailed, as are discussions of Jewish acts that aren't extremism.
Even now, you demonstrate this. You even state that you know every nation has its crazy extremists, yet you immediately turn around and effectively answer "no" to each of my three questions.
Onto other things, your testimonials do not affect me either. I know bad things happen. They happen in Palestine, Israel, and everywhere else in the world too. So, when you give your testimonials, you're only telling me something I already know -- you're just putting in details that I didn't already have.
I find this especially irritating, because emotional appeals are a basic propaganda technique.
so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.
Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?
Of course I still do believe there many bad Zionists!
If Sharon got 86% of votes and 61% of Israeli Zionists want to kick us out of our country, then surly there are still many bad people among them.
I pray for them to accept one of these solutions:
1) One democratic State for all people in historical Palestine (Israel + WB +Gaza) which give equal rights for all citizens whatever their religion or race.
2) Split into two States: Jews State for Zionists and Democratic State for the rest (including moderate Jews)
Do you have another proposal? Could you tell me why the Zionist rejects both proposals by Palestinian?
Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?
I meant my question in the opposite direction -- if you have stopped believing there are good Jews.
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21
Apr22-05, 08:21 PM
I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned thier back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned thier meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed alot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.
Fibonacci
P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.
you wanna quick solution ? don't send them money !
UN created two States based on the request of UK, USA and USSR...
Israel on 55% of historical Palestine
Palestine on 45 % of historical Palestine
Israel succeeded to get 78% of land in 1948!!
There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally , USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.
Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?
The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.
In fact this American double standard ; they destroy Iraq and forced Syria to withdraw from Lebanon , also they want to destroy Iran in the name of UN resolutions, while Israel throw in the trash 70 resolutions and nobody can blame them!
Your argument about the history of the conflict is very biased and it will scatter the topic if we have to discuss it here …
Here more information about the question of Palestine in UN:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/
If you would like , I will provide the text of these resolutions
I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned thier back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned thier meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed alot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.
Fibonacci
P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.
I do not hate any community because of their religion or race. I know many good Jews and we used to work together. I am really sad for what happen for them through centuries, and I wish to see end of this conflict. Anti Jews crimes through history do not justify their current crimes against my nation.
AS I told you, I would like to live in one democratic State with equal rights for all people. But if the Jews want to have their own State, then they should leave the non Jews alone.... we can split the country into two parts (Jews State and Democratic Palestine).
In Palestine , we (Muslims, Jews, Christian , non religious …) lived in peace for more than 1000 years before Zionism, so we can live again in peace , with or without Jews community (if they do not like to share the citizens of Holy Land their State)).
- They reject to establish one State for all people, because they want the Jews to be ‘’absolute majority’’
- They do not want to withdraw from Palestinian areas, because they believe there is no place for two States in historical Palestine?
Is that means they waiting suitable time to do ‘’final solution’’ for the Palestinian as Hitler did with them in 2WW?
Please let me if you have another proposal?
I meant my question in the opposite direction -- if you have stopped believing there are good Jews.
Israel succeeded to get 78% of land in 1948!!
This is the type of misinformation I referred to earlier on another thread.
80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the historical Jewish land as defined by the League of Nations was allocated by the British in 1921 to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was not allowed. The UN then partitioned the remaining 20ish percent of Palestine into two states. One of which was excepted by the Jews and the other refused by the Arab league. Jordan then annexed the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt took control of Gaza, Arabs then controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held only around 17%.
In fact I got the only document for League of Nations about Palestine from the UN site (Please read the original documents instead to follow ‘’propaganda’’, (The Jews should get only few isolated settelments less than 10% of Palestine and Trasnjoradn was considered as independent country (not allowed for Jews immigration)):
League of Nations 30 November 1937
C.495.M.336.1937.VI.
Geneva, November 30th, 1937. LEAGUE OF NATIONS, MANDATES,P A L E S T I N E
Chapter XI. - Trans-Jordan
((The articles of the Mandate concerning the National Home do not apply to Trans-Jordan and the possibility of enlarging the National Home by Jewish immigration into Trans-Jordan rests on the assumption of concord between Arabs and Jews.))
((According to an approximate estimate, in the area allocated to the Jewish State (excluding the urban districts to be retained for a period under Mandatory Administration) there are now about 225,000 Arabs. In the area allocated to the Arab State there are only about 1,250 Jews; but there are about 125,000 Jews as against 85,000 Arabs in Jerusalem and Haifa..))
Here is copy from the original report and maps of LN from UN site:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/08e38a718201458b052565700072b358!OpenDocument
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/fb142c75310db0a90525655600795225/$FILE/palestine1.jpg
In this link of UN you can find all the documents of LN and UN related to Palestine:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/vMaps!OpenView&Start=1
This means that LN gave much less to the Jews than UN offer!!
This map shows the partition plan, which is the basic of creation of two States: Jews State (55%) and Palestinian State (45%) 1947:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument
This is the type of misinformation I referred to earlier on another thread.
80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the historical Jewish land as defined by the League of Nations was allocated by the British in 1921 to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was not allowed. The UN then partitioned the remaining 20ish percent of Palestine into two states. One of which was excepted by the Jews and the other refused by the Arab league. Jordan then annexed the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt took control of Gaza, Arabs then controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held only around 17%.
Nothing you've posted contradicts my statements. Maybe there's some miscommunication here.
Show me any moral justification for creation of Israel?
Do you believe that Palestinian (Muslims and christian) should simply leave their homeland to live under miserable conditions in refugees camps, because UK decided to give their country to other nation!! or because the god told the Jews 3000 years ago that Palestine is their promised land? or because some Jews tribes lived in part in Palestine 2000 years ago?
In fact I do not see any moral justification for establishing Jews homeland in country that already full by people since many centuries. Also Muslims and christen have religious and historical rights in Palestine.
Suppose UK wanted to give all ME to the Jews, is that means we should respect the decision of this colonial Empire who care only about their interest, and who want to create permenant tragedies to other nations as they did in Kashmir, Iraq and Kurdistan?
Nothing you've posted contradicts my statements. Maybe there's some miscommunication here.
Ah, so we should listen to the Europeans when they say things in your favor, but we shouldn't listen to the Europeans when they say things that aren't in your favor?
I do not ask to listen or not, but Palestine is not part of UK to give it to another nation.
May be because we retuned back to root of problem we start to speak about moral justification of creating Israel, but it is exist now and we can not change the things. It is better to look for peaceful solution...
I still would like to hear your opinion about proposal solution?!
Ah, so we should listen to the Europeans when they say things in your favor, but we shouldn't listen to the Europeans when they say things that aren't in your favor?
sid_galt
Apr23-05, 12:09 PM
Show me any moral justification for creation of Israel?
Do you believe that Palestinian (Muslims and christian) should simply leave their homeland to live under miserable conditions in refugees camps, because
And could you provide any official and reliable sources which say that Palestinians were FORCED to leave their property behind and relocate elsewhere?
During wars , many civilians leave their houses especially after such horrible massacres ( for example: Dair Yassin massacre)
Dair Yassin massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
Al-Dawayima massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre
Al-Kabri massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kabri_massacre
Al-Tantura massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Tantura&action=edit
Al-Khisas massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khisas_massacre
Lydda massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lydda_massacre&action=edit
Here is one of cases that Rabin himeslf (former Isareli PM) admitted about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydda_and_Ramle
((Lydda and Ramle during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Lydda and Ramle were two medium-sized towns that were located on the strategically important Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road. In the 1948 war between the Zionist and Palestinian forces in Israel/Palestine, Israeli forces took the town and expelled the towns' residents, an estimated 50,000 Palestinians, at gunpoint.
David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel, ordered the expulsion of the Palestinians and Yitzhak Rabin, the IDF officer in command, carried it out.
The order to expel the Palestinians and the operation itself were described in a passage of a book by Yitzhak Rabin, which was censored by the Israeli government but secretly copied and released by its translator.
The most well known Israeli zionist historian (Benny Morris) admitted in his books about zionism crimes and the roots of Palestinian refugees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
((Benny Morris is a prominent Jewish, Zionist, Israeli historian. He is considered the most influential and prolific member of the New Historians, a group of scholars who have challenged much of the received wisdom of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.))
((In his studies of the origins of the Palestinian refugee problem, Morris argues that the approximately 700,000 Palestinians who fled from their homes in 1947 left mostly due to Israeli actions or fear of Israeli actions, but not as the result of a preexisting expulsion plan.))
New Israeli Historians admitted also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians
((The New Historians are a loosely-defined group of Israeli historians who have declared as their goal the reexamination of the history of Israel and Zionism. They are sometimes referred to as Post-Zionists.))
((In particular, they claim that at least a portion of the Palestinian refugees were driven away from their homes, rather than fleeing of their own choice, as previously claimed.))
sid_galt
Apr23-05, 02:54 PM
During wars , many civilians leave their houses especially after such horrible massacres ( for example: Dair Yassin massacre)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
Here is one of cases that Rabin himeslf (former Isareli PM) admitted about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydda_and_Ramle
((Lydda and Ramle during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Lydda and Ramle were two medium-sized towns that were located on the strategically important Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road. In the 1948 war between the Zionist and Palestinian forces in Israel/Palestine, Israeli forces took the town and expelled the towns' residents, an estimated 50,000 Palestinians, at gunpoint.
David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel, ordered the expulsion of the Palestinians and Yitzhak Rabin, the IDF officer in command, carried it out.
The order to expel the Palestinians and the operation itself were described in a passage of a book by Yitzhak Rabin, which was censored by the Israeli government but secretly copied and released by its translator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (III)
11 December 1948
11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;
You are talking about war which was initiated by the Arabs while I was talking about the creation of Israel. War always will hurt people, innocent or not. Israel has full rights to defend itself during a war.
Because Palestinians were forced to relocate during a war which was initiated by themselves, does in no way discredit the morality of the creation of Israel.
You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin.... unfortunately you changed the argument again!!!
War of creation of Israel is very logical for many reasons:
1- It is not possible to create Jews homeland in areas where Palestinian the majority, therefore no choice for Zionist except to expel as many as possible from the Palestinian people (ethic cleansing)
2- UN resolutions is rejected by both sides, because the Zionist organizations (Lihi and Itzel-Argun) wanted to take Palestine and Jordan completely and to kick all the non Jews to Iraq. The Zionists forces formed from : Hagnah , Etzel and Lihi … you can read more Itzel and Lihi here to see what their opinion about the UN resolution and their contribution in the war, beside their collaboration with NAZI in 2WW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
(Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") was a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.))
Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration.jpg
Irgun (Etzel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
((• From July 1946 until June 1948, Irgun fought as irregulars against the British mandate and Arab forces, informally in coordination with Haganah forces. Their participation in alleged "war crimes" at Deir Yassin has been widely discussed and documented. Their largest single operation was a successful assault on Jaffa (an Arab enclave according to the UN partition plan) starting on May 25.
• In 1948, the group was formally dissolved and its members integrated into the newly formed Israeli Defense Forces. This integration largely coincided with the sinking of the Altalena, a ship with fighters Irgun had recruited and arms Irgun had acquired for Israeli forces. ))
In fact the Palestinian war started during 2WW, because one from three Zionist organizations promised the NAZI German to assists them and declared war against UK and the Palestinian. After the UN resolution the war became more serious and 35000 Arab fighters joined several thousands of Palestinian fighters to defend their homeland against 90000 Zionist soldiers (Hagnah, Irgun and Lihi) with advance weapon.
You are talking about war which was initiated by the Arabs while I was talking about the creation of Israel. War always will hurt people, innocent or not. Israel has full rights to defend itself during a war.
Because Palestinians were forced to relocate during a war which was initiated by themselves, does in no way discredit the morality of the creation of Israel.
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21
Apr23-05, 07:32 PM
The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, untill you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have alot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that thier savior had come, but became thier own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.
Fibonacci
You have good points about one nation in one land for all religions. In fact Palestinian is nation who could represent all religions. We are multi religion nation as any other nation in this world and everybody is free to choose his religion.
Muslims conquered Palestine from Roman in 632. In that time no Jews is allowed to live in Jerusalem, and they suffer a lot because the church claimed their responsibility about "blood of Jesus". During Muslims rule, Jews are allowed to live everywhere, and they established Jews region in Jerusalem for the first time since 3 centuries.
In the end of 11th century, the European Catholic declared holy war to liberate the Land of Jesus from Muslims and Jews. They succeeded to occupy Jerusalem in 1099. They murdered all the citizens of this city including 60000 Muslims and 4000 Jews beside the Eastern Christian (who already lived in peace for 5 centuries). They believed that Palestine is only belong to the nation of Jesus ... after 200 years of horrible wars, Muslims and Jews returned back to live in peace with Christian. Till end of 19th century , Among the Palestinian nation, 20% Christian and 5% Jews. It was land of all refugees and people who suffer from aggression: Jews immigration from Russia 1860-1882, Jews immigration from Spain: 1495-1515, Chechen immigration due Russian invasion: 1850, Bosnian immigration due to civil war: 1870, Armenian (Christian) immigration from Turkey: 1917.
The problem started when extreme nationalist European Jews decided in 1897 to create ''Jews State" (you can compare that with Crusaders who want Christian State without unbelievers). They got promise from UK in 1917 to start their project ignoring the right of 2 Millions Muslims, Christian and even Palestinian Jews (Sumerian Jews).
Unfortunately, it seems the history repeat itself.. Although the propaganda against Islam theses day, it seems only Muslims who tolerate with both Jews and Christian of Palestine...
I do believe we should again establish one democratic State and everybody can care about his holy places. I am talking about my lovely country not about mosque or church. I want to see peace in my homeland and I want everybody to accept the right of others to live as human.
I wish it is matter of time till the Zionists accept to live in one democratic country for different religions.
The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, untill you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have alot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that thier savior had come, but became thier own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.
Fibonacci
Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.
Dear Kat,
For analysis of any historical event we should follow two rules:
1- Taking into consideration the time of the event, then compare it with other events in that time. For example: I can not compare the constitution of Ottoman Empire with the current European constitution , but I can compare the Ottoman Empire , with Britain Empire , with Russian Empire , French Empire and Spanish empire … because all of these Empires exist in the same time scale : 16th till 19th century.
2- We should compare the situation of every community with the rest of people. For example, in 11the century an Egyptian ruler claim that he is ‘’the god’’ and all other religion should worship him. He invaded Palestine and murdered many Muslims, Christian and Jews. He stopped by large Islamic army from Iraq and he was killed by Muslims.
This accident considered one of reasons of Crusaders war, because they count the number of Christian victims and they ignored what this crazy Egyptian ruler did with Muslims and Jews.
I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:
- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims cancelled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.
-
May be some Jews communities suffer from time to time through centuries, which is the case of other communities also, but surely they have good luck to live among Muslims than to live under control of the church of middle ages. This is what the former Israeli president said (Ezer Wiseman)
Here you can find more academic information about Jews and Christian under Islamic rule in middle ages.
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/ab92b7630fca3a9ea19afeb4da09e526.html
Academic information about Dhimmi in Islam (protected people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.
sid_galt
Apr24-05, 10:49 AM
You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin.... unfortunately you changed the argument again!!!
Sorry I was not clear enough. I meant evidence that Palestinians were forcefully evicted at the time Israel was created before the Arabs started the war. Can you provide evidence for that?
arab-israeli war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War)
At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.
Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.
Any wonder that the Jews wanted their own state and fought against the Arabs?
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php
Immediately after the adoption of United Nations Resolution 181 (II) on November 29, 1947, to partition the country into Jewish and Arab states with Jerusalem as a corpus separatum, Arab delegates declared their opposition to partition and their determination to fight it by force if necessary. Palestinian Arabs (including veterans of the 1936-9 Arab Revolt, members of Arab youth organizations, and police) quickly initiated hostilities against the Jewish population. They were soon joined by volunteers from neighboring Arab states. Jewish forces were organized mostly in the Haganah (underground militia) with a fulltime component of about 4,000, most of those members of the Palmach.
The early Arab attacks resembled the Arab Revolt of 1936-9, with attacks on villages and terrorism in the cities. A volunteer "Arab Liberation Army" led by the Syrian Fawzi el Kawukji attacked in the Jezreel Valley, while volunteers from Jebel Druze staged an attack near Haifa. Both were unsuccessful.
But on May 15, 1948 with the termination of the Mandate, the declaration of the State of Israel, and the British departure, the states of the Arab League (armies from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia) invaded the new country with the declared intent of destroying it.
The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.
sid_galt
Apr24-05, 10:52 AM
I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:
- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims cancelled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.
Any Sources for this information?
According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.
(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)
I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.
From your first source:
((At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.))
It is clear who the source of the problems: the Zionism project to create Jews State one land of other nation ignoring the rights of Muslims and Christine. By the way, many repels in that time were Christian Palestinian, and one of their leader called Faud Hujazi (from Hebron) was hanged in the jail of Acca by the British occupation forces.
((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))
It is clear who started to attack after the UN partition plan? Irgun, Lihi and Hagnah, after 3 weeks of Zionist attacks , the Palestinian started to organize themselves to fight back!
((The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. ))
Arab countries decided to join the fighting after the Zionists murdered all the citizens of the village Dair Yassin. The kidnapped many girls and raped them in public in western Jerusalem to terrorize the Palestinian, such barbarism forced thousands of Arab to participate and to protect the Palestinian civilians.
((To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II..))
Many American and European participate the fighting against Palestinian people, so why you think it is legal for them to fight with Zionists, but another Arab are not allowed?
(( On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Yishuv leadership only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Jewish leadership. ))
In fact Arab governments helped the Zionists more than their help to Palestine. Zionists made many secret agreements with kings of (Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt). They were puppet in the hands of UK, but also they could not stop the anger of their nations after Dair Yassin massacre.
((In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))
I wish you can read how the gap between the two forces, even after Arab nations joined the war! Suppose the rest of Arab did not participate, then the Zionists will stop after the death of last Palestinian.
I wish to read your source carefully … it contain many interested information from Israeli sources
arab-israeli war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War)
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php
The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.
It is well known that Byzantines banned Jews to live in Jerusalem (not the rest of Palestine) till Muslims got the city through agreement.
According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.
(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)
Christian and Jews under Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
This is ''extremists" Zionist site (full by pro Zionism propaganda) but they admit at least that Muslims lived tolerate with Jews in middle ages. If those extremist Zionist can not deny it, then surely you should believe in it!:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Sephardim.html
((In 409 CE, the Visigoths (Aryan Christians) conquered Spain and treated the Jews harshly. A canon was passed in 589 prohibiting the marriage of Jews and non-Jews. In 612, the Council of Toledo ordered the baptism of all Jews to take place with the next year. The practice of Judaism was outlawed in the Visigoth kingdom.))
((The situation improved in 711 when Spain fell under the rule of the Muslim Moors. Both Muslims and Jews built a civilization, based in Cordoba, known as Al-Andalus, which was more advanced than any civilization in Europe at that time. Jews were able to coexist peacefully with their neighbors; however, they were still treated as dhimmis, "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) who are protected under Islamic law. Jews did not have complete autonomy and had to pay a special tax, the jizha , but were able to freely practice their religion.))
Rich Muslims pay Zakat (religious tax) also Rich Christian and Jews should pay Jijya if they do not want to join the army to defend the country. This money should go to help poor people in the country.
((The era of Muslim rule in Spain (8th-11th century) was considered the "Golden Age" for Spanish Jewry. Jewish intellectual and spiritual life flourished and many Jews served in Spanish courts. Jewish economic expansion was unparalleled. In Toledo, Jews were involved in translating Arabic texts to the romance languages, as well as translating Greek and Hebrew texts into Arabic. Jews also contributed to botany, geography, medicine, mathematics, poetry and philosophy.))
((By the mid-13th century, the Christians controlled most of Spain and increasingly forced Jews to convert to Christianity. Those who converted became known as Marranos or New Christians))
((Anti-Jewish riots broke out in 1391 in several Spanish cities and the situation worsened for the Jewish community. New Christians were tortured or killed in the Spanish Inquisition during the 15th century. Father Tomas de Torquemada felt that if the Jews remained in Spain, then they would influence the new converts to Christianity. After the capture of Granada from Muslim forces, Father Torquemada convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella that the Jewish community was expendable. In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand commanded that all Jews who refused to convert to Christianity be expelled from Spain. The Jews were given four months to leave Spain and were forced to sell their houses and businesses at low prices. It is estimated that 100,000 Jews left Spain at this time. The expulsion from Spain is commemorated every year by all Jews on the holiday of Tisha B’Av.))
((For hundreds of years, Sephardic Jews lived, as dhimmis, in relative peace with Muslim neighbors and rulers in North Africa and in the Ottoman Empire. They were considered second-class citizens, but were free to practice their own religion and participate in commerce. Similar to Spain and Portugal during the Golden Era, the Sephardic upper class in the Ottoman empire were employed as translators.
The Sephardic communities in the Arab world were more receptive to modernity than their Ashkenazi counterparts in Europe. The Zionist movement became popular among Sephardic Jews in North Africa. Many Sephardic rabbis in the Ottoman Empire supported Zionism and the Zionist movement spread to many Muslim countries in North Africa, such as in Egypt and Tunisia.))
Any Sources for this information?
It might be well-known to you, but it ain't well-known to me.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem#First_millennium):
"The Byzantines cherished the city for its Christian history. However, in accordance with traditions of religious tolerance often found in the ancient East, Jews were allowed into it in the 5th century."
From one of Wikipedia's references (http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html):
324 — 638
The Byzantine Period
438
Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem
614
Persian conquest of Jerusalem — They destroy most churches
and expel Jews
629
Recaptured by Byzantines.
638 — 1099
The Early Muslim Period
638
Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters
Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem
I quoted this last passage too, since it seems to be to what your version of history refers. (Forgetting earlier events) There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.
Anyways, another interesting line from Wikipedia:
Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when a Palestinian-Arab state failed to materialize and the British Mandate of Palestine was invaded by Egypt and Jordan, Jerusalem was divided. The Western half of the New City became part of the new state of Israel, while the eastern half, along with the Old City, was annexed by Jordan. Jordan did not allow Jewish access to the Western Wall (known to non-Jews as the Wailing Wall) and Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest sites, in the Old City. Jordan constructed a slum within a few feet of the base of the Western Wall and used the area as a garbage dump, and converted some churches to mosques.
Dear Hurkyl,
All my sources are western sources or Israeli. It is not necessary that I agree with them, because I am Palestinian and I have my own sources. If I present Palestinian sources, you have right to reject them, so I try to prove my views by using ONLY western or Zionist sources .
Here is the story of Jerusalem from Islamic and eastren christian sources:
The Christian leader of Jerusalem rejected to give the key of the city till he meet Omar (Muslims Khalifa) to sign agreement. Therefore Omar decided to come by himself to get the city and to save many lives. He traveled from Arabia to Palestine (around 1500 Km). During his long journey (on donkey and Camel) he divided the guide between himself and his servant. So Omar will ride the donkey and let his servant pull it for one day, and in the next day Omar pull the donkey and ask his servant to ride it, because both of them can not ride the donkey in the same time, and the Camel is used for carrying food and water.
Omar arrived Jerusalem after several weeks pulling the donkey and wearing old clothes. Byzantine soldiers shocked when they see the difference between their leaders and this man who defeated Persia and Byzantine Empire in the same time within few years.
The leader of Jerusalem welcomed Omar and they signed agreement called (Omerian promise)) which asked to protect the Christian of Jerusalem.. Etc. One of rules of the agreement mentioned that Jews should not stay in the city. After negotiation, they agree that Jews should not be allowed to stay the city during the next 10 years, and if they cause any troubles for Christian in future they should be expelled.
This means that no Jews are allowed to live in this city when they signed this agreement. May be Byzentine rulers changed their opinion after Persian invasion and decided to ban the Jews again?
There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.
sid_galt
Apr26-05, 11:42 AM
I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.
Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.
Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.
klusener
Apr26-05, 03:06 PM
They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?
Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.
I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:
...
CONCLUSION
Thus, under no circumstances can one legally argue that the land is occupied. West Bank and Gaza either belong to Israel based on the League's Mandate or past sovereignty of Jews over the land. Or in the alternative, there are two conflicting claims and the status of land is disputed. For this reason, in March 1994, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright stated: "We simply do not support the description of the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 War as occupied Palestinian territory." (15)
- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin (http://www.globalpolitician.com/articleshow.asp?ID=132&cid=2)
He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.
Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.
you are right klusener, however zionists will tell you that Palestine area was depopulated and no one lived there except few sheep.
after WW2 palestine was flooded with jews from around the world, and they simply stole that land from arabs.
russ_watters
Apr26-05, 10:15 PM
There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:
When was the country of "Palestine" founded?
loseyourname
Apr26-05, 11:20 PM
They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?
I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.
When was the country of "Palestine" founded?
there were people living there hundred of thousands of them making living and they were peacfull.technically palestine did not exist as a state but that does not mean you can just move there and take their land.
it is simple as 2+2 = 4, jews came and trouble began.
Informal Logic
Apr27-05, 12:02 AM
There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally, USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.
Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?
The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.
In fact this American double standard...You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true? I don't care whether you think it is right. Just prove to me that it is not true. Peace cannot be achieved this way.
russ_watters
Apr27-05, 12:23 AM
You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true? It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:
1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.
russ_watters
Apr27-05, 12:30 AM
...technically palestine did not exist as a state... Good - so the first independent (ie, not part of a larger empire such as the British or Ottoman), modern (in the past few thousand years) country to exist on that land is Israel. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Glad we have that straight.
Follow-up question:
Was there ever an attempt by anyone to create a country called "Palestine"?
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.
you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM.
Informal Logic
Apr27-05, 12:46 AM
It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:
1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.
sid_galt
Apr27-05, 05:55 AM
What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.
It is you who have claimed that the US is biased towards Israel because of Judeo-Christian beliefs. The burden of proof lies on you.
russ_watters
Apr27-05, 08:59 AM
you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM. Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to. What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US. Besides the burden of proof thing already posted, the US isn't the only Christian country in the world.
HERE (http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp) is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.
loseyourname
Apr27-05, 11:29 AM
So the US is biased in favor of Israel and all of the arab nations in the middle east are biased against Israel. Whoever you think is more at fault just shows your bias. For the most part, all nations align themselves at this point with other nations that are part of the same civilization.
Informal Logic
Apr27-05, 04:42 PM
The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future. Nothing against Bilal or the person this thread is in reference to, but all the time and energy on this one incident tends to muddle the real issues. We can begin by looking at various historic events, decision makers, and foreign policy/goals at different times and how the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has evolved.
For example, the argument that the US supports Israel because of the Holocaust is illogical. Who perpetrated the genocide? It wasn’t the US. Why did the US become a champion of Israel, and why has the US retained responsibility for preservation of Israel the way it has? Is it to deal with a displaced people? If so, does a country need to be formed, and why does it need to be formed in the Holy Land? After all, Arabs didn’t perpetrate the genocide either. We can begin with the US President at that time, which was Harry S. Truman. There are many publications on the topic, for example the book:
Harry S. Truman and the Founding of Israel
by Michael T. Benson
Benson's book articulates exactly how Truman's deep religious convictions guided--even determined--the U.S. policy toward Israel, leading to the official recognition of its independence. Without that recognition, the Nation of Israel might not have lasted a week--let alone 50 years. Truman was willing to go against the current of his most trusted foreign policy advisers, who were absolutely opposed to the establishment of a Jewish state in the Middle East. These advisers argued that however humanitarian a Jewish homeland might seem, such a proposition posed a real risk to American interests in the Near East and to United States national security in the late 1940s. Despite their continued opposition, Truman stood his ground on his pro-Israel outlook, which was an outgrowth of the president’s religious upbringing and his familiarity with the Bible.While a need for a base in the Middle East has also been a factor in US foreign policy, the Judo-Christian beliefs have been the prevailing, underlying basis for US creation and continued support of Israel. Why hasn’t the US developed better alliances/bases with Arab countries? Could there be a resistance by Arab nations of Western imperialism, culture, and religion? Could there be more connection felt between Christians with Judaism? Or worse, could there be anti-Muslim sentiment created by special interests (religious), the media, etc.?
You can read the reviews by right-wing Christians about Benson’s book, and see current support of political leaders and policy based on religious beliefs in support of Israel. In fact, many Christians make monetary contributions directly to Israel, for example to rebuild the Temple Mount per Biblical prophecy. Between this and a significant Jewish constituency in the US, if the general secular population in the US understood how much of their tax dollars have gone toward aid to Israel, or could make the connection between the US bias and terrorism, I wonder how much support there would be.
The bottom line is there is a bias. It is about protecting oil, but on US terms, which is based in large part on religious premises. It is this bias that has changed a geographical conflict into a religious conflict. It is a bias that prevents peace in the Middle East, and causes these people to feel hatred toward the US. It is the cause of terrorism.
Aside from being in denial if you don't believe Christianity in the US plays a large role in this conflict, why are you all consumed with debate about a single incident like this? You are looking at a tree and not seeing the forest.
Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.
Oh ! I see where you going with this. Terrorists are only arabs, jews are the innocent victims right ? you know what you can "educate " naive young people here in America but i'm not young and not naive.
i can tell you that first terrorist in M.East were actually Jews they started all of it. In years after WW2 most of terror acts were perpertated by newly arrived jews and they were affiliated into Stern Gang,Irgun Zvai Leumi,Haganah.They terrorized not only palestinians but British,Turkish diplomats and soldiers. To gain internationnal compation ( again ) and blame arabs they bombed SS Patria ship which had arrived in Haifa with jewish refuges from Europe.In that inncident almost 300 their own people died .
Of course now you going to accuse me of anti semitism because I'm telling the truth right ? by the way Palestinians are semitic as much as Jews are so how can I be anti-semitic?
Dear sid_galt,
No need to waste a lot of time to realize that the previous link is Zionist propaganda. Just read such sentences to see the way of writing indicate that the authors work hard to defend Israel, and their views are similar to the right Zionist wing. Usually international and unbiased sources do not use such language:
Example:
((Josef Goebbels, the infamous propaganda minister of the Nazis, had it right. Just tell people big lies often enough and they will believe them. The Arabs have learned that lesson well. They have swayed world opinion by endlessly repeating myths and lies that have no basis in fact. ))
Their sources:
http://www.think-israel.org/background.html
PEACE IS POSSIBLE BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND ISRAEL
ACCORDING TO THE KORAN by Dr. Asher Eder
http://web.israelinsider.com/home.htm
Israel insider- Israel's daily newsmagazine
Arutz Sheva - IsraelNationalNews.com
Who Are the Palestinians? by Yashiko Sagamori November 25, 2002
Do you think I am silly person who do not know that those sources are owned by extremist Zionist wing?
I provided links for UN and international organization, while you want me to get the information about my country from people believe that the ‘’Good Palestinian is only the dead Palestinian?). It is the same as to get information about Holocaust from NAZI sources.
Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.
Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.
Informal Logic
Apr28-05, 03:27 PM
HERE (http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp) is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.First, Israel did not build a nation on their own the way the US was built. Israel would not exist without US financial aid or military protection. What this article does convey is my very point about bias due in part to a large Jewish constituency in the US, but American bias also comes from propaganda such as this article.
Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders (and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this) and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement. The US needs to end it's dependence on oil and stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board, including the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the Arabs need to stop perpetuating an uncivilized image of bickering even among themselves.
Dear Joel,
Welcome to this discussion ….
Position of WB and Gaza:
- Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ‘’complete ‘’ occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ‘’new Jews immigrants’’?
- If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?
- The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ‘’great Israel’’. May be they wait for ‘’final solution’’?
Genocide of Palestinians
Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees’ camps (largest refugees’ community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.
I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ‘’terrorism’’? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.
The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:
1- For the first time in modern history, another nation who live ,since centuries, on his homeland is displaced by another people by the support of all great countries (e.g. USA, USSR, UK, France ...). This “displaced” nation forced to loose its country, culture, heritage to another nation without any moral or logical reasons. Just because it is fit with interest of some imperialist countries or compensation for NAZI crimes, which have nothing to do with Palestinian.
2- Palestinian are facings new tactic of ‘’ethic cleansing’’ called: ‘’slow annihilation’’. Israel destroyed their towns, changed the names of all geographical sites, stole their traditional food, music, clothes … etc. Additionally, they destroyed all the historical sites of the Palestinian and they build huge settlements, changing the geography and destroy the history of the land.
3- Palestinian are living as hostages, in suitable time ‘’e.g. regional war’’, Israel will not spare any Palestinian. The only reason they do not starts to annihilate the Palestinian now is the public opinion in the world and the response of nations of ME.
4- Israel is the only country in the world without border. For example, they issued law in 1981 considering Syrian Golan Heights as Israeli land , beside that many Jews still believe that most of ME should be part of ‘’Promised Land’’ : from Iraq till Egypt.
Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.
I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:
- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin (http://www.globalpolitician.com/articleshow.asp?ID=132&cid=2)
He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.
Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.
When was the country of "Germany" founded?
Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established.
Is that means, German as nation was not exist till 160 years ago? Of course not, German exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but for many reasons, the decided to call themselves as one nation (Germany). Even province of Prussia (origin of Germany) is part of Poland today and its people still German.
Italy was also created for the first time in 19the century. Is that means no Italian exist before that, or they came from Mars? Of course Italian are living in their homeland since long time before they decided to create Italy and its nation.
It is the same applicable for most of world countries … nations do not change, but they divide or unite to create new ‘’political names for their nations and countries’’.
Palestine was called “Southern Syria’’. It was part from Great Syria for centuries (Ottoman Empire). The region called ‘’Bilad Ash-sham = Land of Sham” since Roman era. After 1WW, France and UK decided to divide great Syria into Palestine, Jordan (Southern great Syria) - Lebanon and Syrian (North of great Syria).
Before that, Palestine used to be divided into three provinces within great Syria: ‘’Province of Jerusalem, Nablus and Beirut.
Call it what you want ‘’Palestine, Moonland, MarsLand ..’’ this will never change the fact that people are living in that land since 7000 years and they never stole this land from other nations. Jews as many nations live in part in Palestine before more than 2000 years, but they were destroyed by Roman and then by crusaders … it is the way how the history of any nation going.
There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:
When was the country of "Palestine" founded?
UN recognised Israel in 1948, but the Zionism started in 1897 aims to create Jews homeland in Uganda, Palestine or Argentina ... then they decided to chose Palestine , especially after UK promised to assists them if they succeed to occupy it.
After the Holocaust in 2WW, Jews got a lot sympathy among western, nations, so they decided to support certain of Israel in part of Palestine support of great countries in that time (USA, USSR, France and UK).
I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.
1. Palestinain have nothing to do with the Jews in WWII.
2. How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism
It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:
1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.
Dear Informal Logic,
I understand your point. In fact I started this thread thinking that people care to read the emails of Rachel Corrie. She was American eyewitness who did not hate Jews or Israel. I think they will realize the miserable conditions of Palestinian who suffering from ''State Terrorism" of Israel. Unfortunately, as usual, the discussion shifted to other topics related to root of the conflict.
The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future.....
russ_watters
Apr29-05, 12:06 AM
When was the country of "Germany" founded?
Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established. The point is, Germany exists. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Practically, its a little difficult for a country that doesn't exist to make a legitimate land ownership claim. Despite that, Israel is offering land for its creation. Meanwhile, the terrorism continues.
Again, there have been few conflicts in human history as straightforwardly black and white - right and wrong.
"Palestine" exists today as simply a loose collection of terrorist organizations and a powerless, pointless in-name-only government.
russ_watters
Apr29-05, 12:12 AM
Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders... Israel has never once done such a thing. All their occupied territories were won in defensive wars. (and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this) There is no such card. We are well aware that the Israelis are quite powerful. But that doesn't change why we support them - just how much actual aid we should give.
The problem with reducing our aid is that it also reduces our influence. I don't understand why people don't see it, but our aid provides us with the leash by which we keep Israel under control. The simplest, clearest example of this is the Patriot missile batteries in the first Gulf War. But Bush II has also been demanding of Israel. His influence has had an impact on the current situation and is a large part of the reason why Israel is making real, unilateral steps to try to end the conflict (though yes, Arafat's death had a bigger impact). ...and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement. With who? Based on what would such negotiations have any legitimacy? The terrorists continue to refuse to negotiate despite Israle's unprecidented unilateral concessions. The Israelis are showing truly remarkable courage and restraint. The US needs to end it's dependence on oil... Oh, simple as that? :rolleyes: and stop meddling in Middle East affairs. Like it or not, the US is the world's policeman. And there is crime in progress in the ME that we need to deal with. The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board... What?!? Christians shouldn't be allowed to be citizens?! What are you talking about?
How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism
Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni).
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Trumpeldor#Death_and_remembrance) and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April%2C_1920)
Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ??complete ?? occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ??new Jews immigrants???
If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?
The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ??great Israel??. May be they wait for ??final solution???
If the WB and Gaze are not illegally occupied territories, then I see two parties claiming they have the moral right to rule the areas. Considering that both Jews and Palestinians have lived in the area (entire Israel) during the course of history and both have religious reasons to call the land Holy, I find it very difficult to say who has the moral high ground.
Another way to determine who should rule the areas is by pure power struggle, which has been the case in all the wars between Israel and the Arab nations. Israel was left with control over WB and Gaza after they obtained them in the war of 1967 and the Arab nations failed to re-obtain them in the war of 1973.
But no legal, moral or power political claim to any area is by itself enough to secure its stability and later, 'human developmen'*, as surely can bee seen from numerous historical examples. I do not know what is enough, but I think a combination of increased wealth, security from the rule of law and the ability to express one self through democratic institutions may provide a better future for Jews and Palestinians alike, in Gaza, WB and elsewhere. Weather this is better done by giving Palestinians equal rights with Jews or by withdrawing from the settlements and establishing a Palestinians state will probably depend on how important religion will be for both sides and how the attitudes against Jews in other Arabian countries develop. Maybe the current plan of withdrawal and two states is for the better?
I must also ask you, who is 'they'? Are you referring to the government of Israel and the policy of Sharon, a particular party's agenda, or some other particular group? I am asking, because one of the most persistent myths about Jews is the belief that a Jewish or Zionist conspiracy exists to take over the world. **
*Human development combines socio-economic development, cultural change and democratization into a single, measurable concept. It is based on Amartya Sen's economic theories and is currently measured yearly by UNDP. http://hdr.undp.org/reports/
**See this case study of Antisemitism in Swedish public discourse for a background of the various myths associated with Antisemitism. http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2001-2/bachner.htm The article is based on Henrik Bachner's doctoral thesis in History of Ideas at Lund university.
Genocide of Palestinians
Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees? camps (largest refugees? community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.
Thank you for the numbers. Even if it is a palestinian source, could you name it or provide a link if it exists on the internet?
Here is the source I remembered: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_killed_fact_sheet.htm
I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ??terrorism??? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.
There is a saying, "Lies, dammed lies, and statistics" and I agree very much that the game of numbers is not wise. However, I find it important for everyone to be aware of the best estimations we have about how many have died and in what circumstances. If used properly, statistics can also be a valuable tool establish what has happened and will happen, wouldn't you say?
The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:
I fancy myself with the belief that I'm not entirely unaware of the Palestinian tragedy. However, as Russ pointed out, there exists a plan to establish a Palestinian state. When and how it will become a reality is not only dependant on Israel, but also on the functioning of the Palestinian authority. Just like you have the right to ask for a safe place to live in, so has the Israelis now.
-Jews settlers teaching their kids also how to kill the Palestinian in summer camps which organized by Israeli government annually.
http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg
- Concerning the collaboration between Mufti Husiani and Nazi, here also from the same source about the Zionists leaders and NAZI. Both NAZI and Zionism agree to kick out the Jews of Europe to Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
((Contact with Nazi authorities
In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))
- Quotes of David Ben-Gurion, first Israeli PM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion
((If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni).
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Trumpeldor#Death_and_remembrance) and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April%2C_1920)
Dear Joel,
I try to compromise by accepting the reality and to be pragmatic. Unfortunately this seems not working with Zionism. Therefore, you will never going to admit what you cause to Palestinian nation.
My question: If you were Palestinian, what you will do?
Before you answer this question read carefully what the Zionist leaders answered:
David Ben-Gurion: leader of independent of Israel and first PM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion
(("Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.))
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.))
Ehud Barak:
((If I were Palestinian , I would be terrorist))
Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country and they built Zionist settlements after annihilation of 530 Palestinian towns, so what I have to prove more?
We can not tell 5 millions Jews to leave Palestine…, but also we need peaceful solution:
- One democratic State for all religions, so Jews, Christian, Muslims, Arab ..etc live in one country with equal rights.
- Creation of Jews State only in Jews areas, and let the others to create their Democratic State for the rest of people, including those Jews who willing to live in peace with Palestinian.
Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country
I think you need to pay attention to the context. It seems crystal clear to me that in the quote, David Ben-Gurion is describing his perception of how Arabs view the situation. I wouldn't've have even thought that one might interpret it differently until I saw that you did.
Informal Logic
Apr29-05, 05:57 PM
Israel has never once done such a thing. All their occupied territories were won in defensive wars. ...There is no such card.What were the original borders when the country was formed? After a conflict, does it mean settlement of new areas is okay? What is the reason always given by Israel for their expansion beyond the original borders? To protect their poor little country from all the bad enemies that surround them. What did everyone think would happen when a new nation is plopped in the middle of countries that have been there for thousand years?
The problem with reducing our aid is that it also reduces our influence. I don't understand why people don't see it, but our aid provides us with the leash by which we keep Israel under control.So the US is imperialistic, and it's a good thing even in regard to Israel?
But Bush II has also been demanding of Israel.Now that his popularity is failing he is making these efforts, but due to his previous behavior, he has very little credibility in the world.
With who? Based on what would such negotiations have any legitimacy? The terrorists continue to refuse to negotiate despite Israle's unprecidented unilateral concessions.In an interview, Jimmy Carter stated that the last agreement extended to Arafat was unreasonable. And if Arafat had accepted it, he would have been assassinated. And calling only one group 'terrorists' is why peace has not been achieved.
And there is crime in progress in the ME that we need to deal with.Right--crimes like the US preemptively invading Iraq.
What?!? Christians shouldn't be allowed to be citizens?! What are you talking about?I stated examples above, such as Christians in the US sending contributions to Israel for the rebuilding of the Temple Mount. It is an extension of the kind of religious involvement in politics that we currently see domestically. No, they don't have a right to take foreign policy in their own hands.
russ_watters
Apr29-05, 06:33 PM
What were the original borders when the country was formed? After a conflict, does it mean settlement of new areas is okay? What is the reason always given by Israel for their expansion beyond the original borders? To protect their poor little country from all the bad enemies that surround them. When a country wins land in a war, the usual thing to do is either to make it a buffer zone or to settle it. Israel settled it. Now, Israel is making the absolutely unprecidented in all of human history move of unilaterally pulling back from its occupied territories. Countries simply don't do things like that. And what does Israel have to gain? - the terrorists aren't even promising to stop this time. But I guess it saves them the trouble of negotiating, then breaking their agreements. What did everyone think would happen when a new nation is plopped in the middle of countries that have been there for thousand years? I thought we had already covered this: there was no country on the land that became Israel. It was a territory of the British empire and was theirs to do with as they wished. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman empire. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Palestine could have existed alongside Israel had the arabs chosen to accept a Jewish country and a Palestine in their midst. And now Israel is just plain going to give land away. Bizarre! So the US is imperialistic, and it's a good thing even in regard to Israel? Nothing about the US being the world's policeman has anything to do with imperialism. Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight - but ask the Yugoslavians if they think we were being imperialistic when we overthrew Milosevich a few years ago. Heck, ask the Kuaitis if we took them over. Can you tell me the year the US last took a territory? Now that his popularity is failing he is making these efforts, but due to his previous behavior, he has very little credibility in the world. Please look up the year Bush first proposed a Mideast peace plan - then tell me what his popularity was like that year. I'll give you a hint: at the time, Bush's popularity was already near the highest in history. Strange for a Christianity-motivated, pro-Israel President to risk his popularity by essentially threatening Israel (he actually said "I challenge Israel...", but followed it up with a threat to reduce our aid)... In an interview, Jimmy Carter stated that the last agreement extended to Arafat was unreasonable. And if Arafat had accepted it, he would have been assassinated. And calling only one group 'terrorists' is why peace has not been achieved. Jimmy Carter is a traitor and a coward and calling terrorists terrorists is a reality that biased people all over the world refuse to accept. The word has a definition and that definition fits one side like a glove. With Abbas, that may be changing, but we have yet to see him actually wield any power over the terrorists. Right--crimes like the US preemptively invading Iraq. As I'm sure you know, international law holds that if you violate a treaty ending a war, then that war is technically still underway. Hussein violated the treaty that ended Gulf I on a daily basis and the UN itself said so. So the UN made a threat and then refused to follow through - that isn't news: again, ask Yugoslavia about the UN's willingness to act. I stated examples above, such as Christians in the US sending contributions to Israel for the rebuilding of the Temple Mount. It is an extension of the kind of religious involvement in politics that we currently see domestically. No, they don't have a right to take foreign policy in their own hands. I really hope you see the irony of complaining about Christians' influence on politics in a thread about Islamic Jihad and theocracy.
Yes, American Christians want the Temple Mount rebuilt. So what? Iraqi Americans wanted Saddam Hussein overthrown. Yugoslavian Americans wanted Milosevich overthrown. Did you read the article in USA Today a few days ago about the American Muslim woman who built a school in Afghanistan in honor of her son who died in 9/11? Just because a group happens to be religious makes no difference - and certainly doesn't make their choice of charity de facto wrong.
Informal Logic
Apr29-05, 07:22 PM
When a country wins land in a war, the usual thing to do is either to make it a buffer zone or to settle it.There is the very important difference of being given a country in the first place. That's why I used the term "pushing the envelope." I thought we had already covered this: there was no country on the land that became Israel. It was a territory of the British empire and was theirs to do with as they wished. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman empire. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Palestine could have existed alongside Israel had the arabs chosen to accept a Jewish country and a Palestine in their midst.British imperialism is no better than American imperialism, and just because there was not a country formally called "Palestine" at the time, doesn't mean the creation of a new nation in the area is of no consequence to the people already in the vicinity.
Nothing about the US being the world's policeman has anything to do with imperialism. ...Can you tell me the year the US last took a territory?This is contradictory, and since when does a country have to actually take a country in name to be imperialistic?
Bush's popularity was already near the highest in history. Strange for a Christianity-motivated, pro-Israel President to risk his popularity by essentially threatening Israel (he actually said "I challenge Israel...", but followed it up with a threat to reduce our aid)...My remark was about Bush's credibility internationally, which has never been good. The stats on popularity domestically, such as how Bush won by more votes in history, is always skewed. He was never had majority support or popularity in the true sense of it except in his own mind and the minds of his supporters.
Jimmy Carter is a traitor and a coward and calling terrorists terrorists is a reality that biased people all over the world refuse to accept.Carter has had far greater understanding, and respect for his international work. Bush can only look as good as the advisors behind him can try to make him look.
Yes, American Christians want the Temple Mount rebuilt. So what? ?To begin, this is no charity. To think that adding such religious fuel to the fire is a good thing is to be impervious to the role of religion in conflicts throughout history.
russ_watters
Apr29-05, 07:51 PM
This is contradictory, and since when does a country have to actually take a country in name to be imperialistic? Since forever. Perhaps you should define what you mean by "imperialistic".
My remark was about Bush's credibility internationally, which has never been good. The stats on popularity domestically, such as how Bush won by more votes in history, is always skewed. He was never had majority support or popularity in the true sense of it except in his own mind and the minds of his supporters. Bush's supporters measure Bush's popularity the same way Clinton's measured his. Have both or neither. Frankly, I don't care either way.
Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.
Blowing up houses of innocent Palestinians is not a terrorism ?
then my dictionary must be wrong,tell me if you agree.
Terrorism:
tt unlawfull use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons
Informal Logic
Apr29-05, 10:34 PM
Blowing up houses of innocent Palestinians is not a terrorism ?
then my dictionary must be wrong,tell me if you agree.
Terrorism:
tt unlawfull use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasonsThe request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game.Since forever. Perhaps you should define what you mean by "imperialistic".Imperialism is a policy of extending the control or authority over foreign entities as a means of acquisition and/or maintenance of empires, either through direct territorial or through indirect methods of exerting control on the politics and/or economy of other countries.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, that is just a google away. Try it sometime.
It takes a large leap to get from "influence" to "control or authority".
The request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game.
Or, it could be an attempt to remind others what the words they are using mean. Of course, the attempt tends to fail, because people tend to ignore the definition once they quote it. :rolleyes:
Not only can I see the potential for a good argument against being unlawful, but I find it difficult to believe that the intention was intimidation, and that the reason was ideological or political.
This is a way in which the appeal to emotion backfires. Not only has the propoaganda attempt failed, but you've managed to avert the discussion away from the point you want to make over to your abuse of the language.
Soilwork
Apr30-05, 06:10 AM
I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??
Anyways I just don't think you can relate the tiananmen square incident to this one.
The situations are completely different.
I think it was a loss of life where there shouldn't have been.
She should have moved.
I mean I think it's good that there are people trying to help, but really I think they should know a little about the history of conflict and what they are standing up for.
I'm am heavily in favour of Israel because the Palestinians partnered with Egypt to try and eradicate the Jews and it seems that they have carried on with their psychotic tendencies.
Obviously not all Palestinians are like this, but the cases where the Israeli military have attacked usually involve hostile Palestinians...that's my point really.
Anyway it was tragic and now there is one less person to help out there, but it was her choice in the end.
russ_watters
Apr30-05, 09:03 AM
The request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game. I argued in a thread, just yesterday, for a scientific, objective approach to politics (and the silence from others in that thread is deafening). Requiring that people stick to the definitions of words is a big, big part of that. In our science forums, we call it "word salad" when people stick words together that sound scientific, but that they don't understand. The same applies here.
I encourage you (et al) to attempt to objectively apply the definitions of those two words. And don't be afraid of the result. I'm letting it go for now, but don't think for a minute I haven't noticed the definition shift game you're trying to play even now. Worse than just changing the accepted definitions, you're changing your own usage of a number of words during the course of the thread.
Too often, people are afraid of showing weakness - afraid of being wrong: its one of the reasons such conflicts persist and it applies to this thread as well. Eventually, as with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, the reasons for the conflict become irrelevant and both sides just feed on the day to day conflict. The "cycle of violence". Finding a solution requires both sides letting go of their immediate issues and deal with the fact that violence begets violence. Both sides need to drop their posturing and choose peace. In my opinion, the Israelis have shown a willingness to do that (by unilaterally withdrawing from some occupied territories - something that just plain isn't done) and the Arabs have not.
edit: just a little more:
The thing that bothers me most about this issue (objectivity in politics) is that I think everyone is aware of the issue. The thread on a scientific approach to politics generated four responses. People saw it and choose to ignore it. To your credit, you made the only argument against objectivity - at least that shows some consistency. But what bothers me is that even that shows you are aware of the problem and still consciously choose not to attempt to deal with it in your own beliefs. You can't possibly be unaware of the word games you are trying to play. Perhaps you think I'm a fool and don't see the manipulation - heck, I'd accept that. Its devious, but at least it'd mean you aren't consciously choosing not to be objective.
selfAdjoint
Apr30-05, 10:49 AM
The thing that bothers me most about this issue (objectivity in politics) is that I think everyone is aware of the issue. The thread on a scientific approach to politics generated four responses. People saw it and choose to ignore it. To your credit, you made the only argument against objectivity - at least that shows some consistency. But what bothers me is that even that shows you are aware of the problem and still consciously choose not to attempt to deal with it in your own beliefs. You can't possibly be unaware of the word games you are trying to play. Perhaps you think I'm a fool and don't see the manipulation - heck, I'd accept that. Its devious, but at least it'd mean you aren't consciously choosing not to be objective.
Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on. Human society is too complex for simple logical discussions to grasp, whether you're talking microeconomics 101, sociobiology, or objectivism.
Could you please show me where Ben Gurion refer to his quote that Palestinian think that not him?
Here the quotes again, I read the quotes again and again ....and I do believe he refer to the facts on ground as he see it, not to Palestinian opinion. I will be grateful if you prove your point, you can also check the original sources ....
Remember , that we do not talk about historian or thinker, we talk about the greatest person in history of Israel who was the leader of independence of State of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion
(("Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.))
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.))
I think you need to pay attention to the context. It seems crystal clear to me that in the quote, David Ben-Gurion is describing his perception of how Arabs view the situation. I wouldn't've have even thought that one might interpret it differently until I saw that you did.
Dear Soilwork,
I do not blame you because it seems you know little about this issue (as I see from your post). It seems you live in area where people know one side of the story. Please read the summery of this conflict from From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It is at least accepted source by both sides because most of their information based on documented and international sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??
Anyways I just don't think you can relate the tiananmen square incident to this one.
The situations are completely different.
I think it was a loss of life where there shouldn't have been.
She should have moved.
I mean I think it's good that there are people trying to help, but really I think they should know a little about the history of conflict and what they are standing up for.
I'm am heavily in favour of Israel because the Palestinians partnered with Egypt to try and eradicate the Jews and it seems that they have carried on with their psychotic tendencies.
Obviously not all Palestinians are like this, but the cases where the Israeli military have attacked usually involve hostile Palestinians...that's my point really.
Anyway it was tragic and now there is one less person to help out there, but it was her choice in the end.
loseyourname
Apr30-05, 12:29 PM
I can see how those quotations can be taken either way, Bilal. It isn't obvious that Gurion is saying that he believes the current Israeli population stole the 'Palestinian country.' He is definitely saying that this is the way the Arab world sees it.
I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??
jews arre destroying homes of innocent Palestinians just to terrorize and humiliate them, and even if somone living there had something to do with any bombing there is more civilized way to solve this problem ie, catching that person, conducting investigation and if found guilty sending to prison.
let me remind you that palestinians live in ghettos where Israeli army has defacto complete controll, they have spies/informants on the ground, surveilance from above they know everything what is going on.
I would not be suprised if israelis know in advance that someone is planing bombing mission and let it happened to gain more compassion from the USA and be able to terrorize Palestinians even more.
some of the so called "suicide bombings "are even staged by israelis , but that exist in the realm of speculation.
I can see how those quotations can be taken either way, Bilal. It isn't obvious that Gurion is saying that he believes the current Israeli population stole the 'Palestinian country.' He is definitely saying that this is the way the Arab world sees it.
What you mean ? how they can be taken OTHER way around, it is like black on white ? Isaraelis stole Palestinian Land, and Palestinians are fighting untill this very day, show me other group of people with that much honor and courage .
I do believe the second quote make it clear and prove my explaination to first quote. He mentioned the names of well known Israeli towns that built after removal of thousands-years old Palestinian towns? He admitted that these well known Israeli towns are established recently after destruction of origin Palestinian towns.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
Please show me the words that in the quote support your views?!
I can see how those quotations can be taken either way, Bilal. It isn't obvious that Gurion is saying that he believes the current Israeli population stole the 'Palestinian country.' He is definitely saying that this is the way the Arab world sees it.
Here interesting quote for russ_watters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever." Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
Menachem Begin : one of the most well known Zionist leaders and one of main leaders of indpendanbce war. Additionally, he was former PM in 70s and early 80s.
This proves that Jews also rejected UN partial plan and decided to fight, so why russ_watters claim that only Palestinian who rejected this plan.
Those who claim that Palestinian are the only side who support terrorism, here is information about another great Israeli leader and PM in 80s and early 90s. He was on the top of the list of wanted terrorists for his bloody crimes:
((After Stern was killed by the British in 1942, Shamir escaped from the detention camp and became one of the three leaders of the group in 1943, reforming it as "Lehi". During his tenure, the Lehi was responsible for the 1944 assassination of Britain's minister of state for the Middle East, Lord Moyne, and the 1948 assassination of the United Nations representative in the Middle East, Count Folke Bernadotte, due to their political initiatives for Palestine which clashed with the right-wing views of the Lehi.))
Yitzhak Shamir (born October 15, 1915) was Prime Minister of Israel from 1983 to 1984 and again from 1986 to 1992.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir
In fact most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people.
What you mean ? how they can be taken OTHER way around, it is like black on white ?
This is part of the problem. I can understand how you arrive at your interpretation of things, even if I don't agree with it. You can't even understand how we arrived at our interpretation, even after I said how!
Is it because you don't try? Are you faking incredulity, because you think admitting you see how we got our viewpoint would be a show of weakness?
show me other group of people with that much honor and courage .
Ted Kaczynski? Timothy McVeigh? Sorry, couldn't resist. :smile: Acting in the name of a noble cause does not make honorable and courageous.
Informal Logic
Apr30-05, 06:38 PM
Or, it could be an attempt to remind others what the words they are using mean. Of course, the attempt tends to fail, because people tend to ignore the definition once they quote it. :rolleyes:I couldn't agree more. I have read many posts over time, and long before becoming a member and/or posting in this forum. For example, the definition of terrorism has been debated and defined repeatedly in other threads, and with regard to how different groups perceive themselves or are perceived, for example 'freedom fighters' versus 'guerillas' etc. The definition provided by stoned I believe was provided verbatim before. So either the request is not of a sincere academic nature, or as you have said, the definition is just being ignored.
Not only can I see the potential for a good argument against being unlawful, but I find it difficult to believe that the intention was intimidation, and that the reason was ideological or political.When members use patronizing verbiage or take authoritarian positions, especially mentors, it is a form of intimidation and is not conducive to participation in the forum. I have seen this tactic toward many members, and I for one am growing tired of it. Further, though I realize many participants are young, many are older and do not appreciate being patronized by members under the age of 25 who believe they are the ultimate authority on everything. There are some people, such as the person who posted the thread about political objectivity, who obviously are scholars in this area and DO know more than those with other areas of specialty. A little respect and acknowledgement of this sort of thing would be nice to see.
In reference to objectivity and my posts, do you know if I am Arab, or Jewish, or Christian, or American or from another country? If you think you do, I guarantee you you're wrong. I am not the biased one in these discussions.
My apologies to Bilal, but I felt it to be important to respond to this.
In reference to objectivity and my posts, do you know if I am Arab, or Jewish, or Christian, or American or from another country?
I have no clue: I care about the argument, not the arguer. In fact, I rarely remember who says what.
BTW, you guessed my age wrong. :wink:
I've saved off the rest of my reply -- I think it's digressing too far off topic. If anyone cares to read it, PM me.
sid_galt
May1-05, 01:09 AM
Dear sid_galt,
No need to waste a lot of time to realize that the previous link is Zionist propaganda. Just read such sentences to see the way of writing indicate that the authors work hard to defend Israel, and their views are similar to the right Zionist wing. Usually international and unbiased sources do not use such language:
Example:
((Josef Goebbels, the infamous propaganda minister of the Nazis, had it right. Just tell people big lies often enough and they will believe them. The Arabs have learned that lesson well. They have swayed world opinion by endlessly repeating myths and lies that have no basis in fact. ))
Their sources:
http://www.think-israel.org/background.html
PEACE IS POSSIBLE BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND ISRAEL
ACCORDING TO THE KORAN by Dr. Asher Eder
http://web.israelinsider.com/home.htm
Israel insider- Israel's daily newsmagazine
Arutz Sheva - IsraelNationalNews.com
Who Are the Palestinians? by Yashiko Sagamori November 25, 2002
Do you think I am silly person who do not know that those sources are owned by extremist Zionist wing?
I provided links for UN and international organization, while you want me to get the information about my country from people believe that the ‘’Good Palestinian is only the dead Palestinian?). It is the same as to get information about Holocaust from NAZI sources.
Bilal, I can see that you completely evaded the second point I made. I can guess why.
As I said, what I quoted was a FACT which HAPPENED. The Arab League of Nations initiated war against Israel. Unless you can prove me wrong on this point, my argument still stands.
-Jews settlers teaching their kids also how to kill the Palestinian in summer camps which organized by Israeli government annually.http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg
I see no obvious correlation between what you state and that image. What camp is it? Who organises it? For all I know, it could be a picture of father & son in a thousand different circumstances - a military base "open day" or during the independence day displays. Not every Israeli holding a weapon wants to kill Palestinians, and violence as a solution to the current dispute is definitely not in the MoE curriculum, which is more than I can say for the Palestinian education system.
Concerning the collaboration between Mufti Husiani and Nazi, here also from the same source about the Zionists leaders and NAZI. Both NAZI and Zionism agree to kick out the Jews of Europe to Palestine
First, my reference to Hajj Amin el-Husseini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni) had nothing to do with his contacts with Nazi Germany (why do you constantly raise that subject?). Rather, I was following your claim on the origins of terrorism in the Middle-East:2. How terrorism started in MEI claim that the peaceful & legal Jewish settlement in Palestine was forced to establish defensive organisations such as the Haganah - who expelled men of extreme views such as Stern - which is why he had to form his own small organisation. I also referred to the Haganah's aid to the British to find and arrest several Irgun and Lehi members. You can see the division between the Haganah and Etzel in the Altalena Affair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena). Never was it a consensus among the Jewish settlement in Palestine or the Israeli society to use the violent means that you emphasize so much. In contrast, Palestinian society (and the PA) still accepts and even encourages acts of violence against Israel. Don't they understand it's detrimental to all sides?
IMO, the few extremists you refer to and the majority of Palestinian society share one trait: they both accept or turn a blind eye to violence on their behalf, dismiss the perpetrators as "an extremist few", and expect us - the sane majority - to understand it as the result of unfortunate circumstances. It's time the active - and especially the passive - parts on both sides realise everyone has their reasons for creating more violence, and rather than work in a negative way - pointing fingers (and Wiki links) at the other side - start using their energy in a positive way - like helping people understand violence does not solve violence, no matter how much you've suffered.
The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever.Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
Menachem Begin : one of the most well known Zionist leaders and one of main leaders of indpendanbce war. Additionally, he was former PM in 70s and early 80s.
You find it important enough to show Menahem Begin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Begin) was a PM during the 70s and 80s but you don't think it's important to state he negotiated the Camp David accords and was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize? When that quote was said, during the British mandate of palestine, Begin never had the popular support Ben-Gurion had, because of these views. Israelis can quote Mahmoud Abbas from 30 years ago but we choose to give him the benefit of the doubt that he deserves - after all, a lot of things can change in 3 decades, right? Having agreed on that, why don't you quote this:
"No more wars, no more bloodshed, and no more threats"-Menahem Begin, Broadcast to the Egyptian People (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1977-1979/65%20Broadcast%20by%20Prime%20Minister%20Begin%20t o%20the%20Egypti) November 11, 1977
You see, even Begin had the moral strength to realise, 3 decades later, that no matter how strongly you feel about the injustice done to you, fighting will get you nowhere.
This proves that Jews also rejected UN partial plan and decided to fight, so why russ_watters claim that only Palestinian who rejected this plan.
Should read "This proves some Jews also rejected UN partial plan". That's all it proves. Here's one Israeli that thinks Israel should pull out of the territories - does that make me a spokesperson for Israel?
Those who claim that Palestinian are the only side who support terrorism, here is information about another great Israeli leader and PM in 80s and early 90s.
Funny, wasn't it Yitzhak Shamir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir) that participated in the Madrid Peace Conference (http://www.google.com/search?q=madrid+conference)? He also held the IDF at bay as Iraqi scuds landed on Israel - do you think Shamir of 3 decades earlier would have done the same?
Although Shamir had a reputation as a Likud hard-liner, in 1977 he presided at the visit of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and the peace talks; in 1981 and 1982 he guided negotiations with Egypt to normalize relations after the treaty and directed negotiations which led to the 1983 agreement with Lebanon (never ratified by the Lebanese government).
In 1991 the Shamir government took part in the Madrid peace talks and ordered the rescue of thousands of Ethiopian Jews, the Operation Solomon. The Shamir government also decided not to retaliate after the unprovoked Iraqi Scud missile volleys (many of which struck Israeli population centers) during the First Gulf War. The United States urged restraint, saying Israeli attacks would jeopardize the delicate Arab-Western coalition assembled against Iraq. Although long a hard-liner, Shamir left office in 1992, after his government fell amid charges that Likud—by taking part in the Madrid Peace Conference—had effectively agreed to enter negotiations over the West Bank and Gaza.
A PM who allowed his government to fall all for the sake of negotiations for parts of Eretz Israel? Doesn't sound quite like the same man you described.
He was on the top of the list of wanted terrorists for his bloody crimes
Whose list?
In fact most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people.
Can you support that claim?
klusener
May1-05, 09:18 AM
Bilal, I can see that you completely evaded the second point I made. I can guess why.
As I said, what I quoted was a FACT which HAPPENED. The Arab League of Nations initiated war against Israel. Unless you can prove me wrong on this point, my argument still stands.
But it still remains that they initiated the war as an act of defense because the land that they had been living in for thousands of years had been forcefully taken away from them without their opinions being voiced, they had no hand in the matter, so it is only natural and logical that they fight for their land..
But it still remains that they initiated the war as an act of defense because the land that they had been living in for thousands of years had been forcefully taken away from them without their opinions being voiced, they had no hand in the matter, so it is only natural and logical that they fight for their land..
You must distinguish between the Arab Nations and the Palestinian people. I would love to elaborate on the different meanings, but it seems noone can agree on the meaning of "Palestinian" as there are no definite rules to decide who is and who isn't a Palestinian. It seems there was no definite Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century:the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations (in Jerusalem, February 1919), which met for the purpose of selecting a Palestinian Arab representative for the Paris Peace Conference, adopted the following resolution: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."-Palestinians - Formation of the Palestinian Nationality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Formation_of_the_Palestinian_national ity)
Israel, in its initial form, was not taken away forcefully from anyone. Most of the land was even bought from the Arab land barons, the majority of which resided in Damascus, Beirut, Cairo and Alexandria - only a few lived in the port towns of Akko and Jaffa. Local Arabs who were not violent remain a part of Israel to this very day - they are Israeli citizens just like myself, though there is an undeniable racial problem (one can argue Palestinians are discriminated against in Arab countries worse than Arab Israelis in Israel). Some communities, who are today's Palestinians, were violent to the Jewish population were treated (understandably IMO) with hostility, and apparently in one circumstance there was unnecessary cruelty (Deir Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin)), though that case is still argued by some of the actions participants, and if you read the article, you'll see that the Haganah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah), the largest Jewish force that later became the IDF, opposed attacking the village.
The UN Partition Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan) was accepted by the de-facto Jewish leadership, but the Arab Nations declared there will be no Jewish State under any circumstances, and the morning after the Declaration of Indedependence unprovokedly attacked Israel, who had not even formed an Army yet. You can read more on the War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War).
Until the formation of the PLO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO) in 1964 there was no Palestinian leadership, and they were not viewed as a unique people by Israel or any other country, including the Arab countries. The Arabs countries used them as a means of pressuring Israel, and supplied them with plenty of ammunition and hatred but did little to sincerely assist them. Obviously, they had no real say on anything the Arab countries did.
But it still remains that they initiated the war as an act of defense because the land that they had been living in for thousands of years had been forcefully taken away from them without their opinions being voiced, they had no hand in the matter, so it is only natural and logical that they fight for their land..
(1) Not all those involved have been living there for thousands of years. For example, certainly the Egyptians were living in, y'know, Egypt.
(2) As Bilal reminds us, Jews have been living there for thousands of years as well.
(3) Arabs can't even say they've controlled for thousands of years. For example, The Brits controlled the area for a couple decades before the creation of Israel, and the Turks for centuries before that. (And you sure don't see Turkey participating in "reclaiming stolen land")
Dear Joel,
I try to compromise by accepting the reality and to be pragmatic. Unfortunately this seems not working with Zionism. Therefore, you will never going to admit what you cause to Palestinian nation.
My question: If you were Palestinian, what you will do?
Before you answer this question read carefully what the Zionist leaders answered:
Dear Bilal,
I also think a pragmatic approach is best. However, you are mistaken if you think that I do not admit what some Jews have done to the Palestinians.
Regarding Ben-Gurion's words and Israel's creation, I think they - along with other historical events - must be put into their context, as you said yourself in a previous post. However, since that time, much has changed, and I will try to answer your question as if I where a young Palestinian today.
I would first accept that all people have suffered injustice in their history and that their responses have varied from seeking revenge, to assimilate with the people who have wronged them, to just forget and move on. Then I would ask myself how I could achieve a life where me and my family could live properly. If I had the luxury, I would study social sciences to understand the past injustice and the future possibilities. Finally, I would decide to work for two separate states, by trying to solve a variety of problems*, while avoiding negative perceptions of my intentions**.
* Palestinian human development reports (http://home.birzeit.edu/dsp/phdr/2002/) are a part of the UNDP reports I mentioned earlier. I think Arab HD-reports are also worth reading for a wider perspective: Arab human development report 2004 (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/detail_reports.cfm?view=912), Arab human development report 2003 (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/detail_reports.cfm?view=712), Arab human development report 2002 (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/detail_reports.cfm?view=600)
For a more theoretical approach: Theory of human development: a cross-cultural study (http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=csd)
**I think the idea of a 'clash between civilizations' has its origin in this paper: the clash of civilizations, by Samuel Huntington (http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html) He published a book with the same title in 2002 after the terror attacks in America 2001.
I see no obvious correlation between what you state and that image. What camp is it? Who organises it? For all I know, it could be a picture of father & son in a thousand different circumstances - a military base "open day" or during the independence day displays. Not every Israeli holding a weapon wants to kill Palestinians, and violence as a solution to the current dispute is definitely not in the MoE curriculum, which is more than I can say for the Palestinian education system.
Israeli Textbooks Incite Racism, Hatred
From the Israeli newspaper Haartz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=560441&contrassID=1&subContrassID=9&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=
((A majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the state should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate, according to a survey conducted by the Dahaf Institute on behalf of Madar, the Palestinian Center for Israel Studies.))
((The survey also found that only 34 percent of Jewish Israelis support a peace deal that entails a full withdrawal to the 1967 borders, while 65 percent oppose it.))
The Israeli Arab live in peace in Israel since 1948 and many of them are working in the Israeli army, so why the Jews hate them and want them to leave the land of there forefathers since thousands of years? Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.
Israeli education system:
http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134
This is the result of Egyptian research by Safa Abdel Aal, an education expert, about Israeli education system. She work with several International organizations and her reports:
((Israel’s education curricula aim at psychologically mobilizing youngsters for war, inciting “hostility, grudge and hatred” against Arabs and tarnishing the Arab image, according to a new study.))
“Israeli school textbooks aim at implanting the desire for war in the souls of students as a sole means for defending what they believe legitimate and historic rights with the objective of mobilizing the Israeli public opinion for a constant state of war,” Safa Abdel Aal, an education expert, was quoted by Reuters as saying Thursday, March 10.))
((Young Israelis are educated about the army as early as the 11th grade, with five days of training that includes learning how to shoot.
A year later, school students receive counseling from a young soldier about draft procedures.
Serving in the Israeli army, which comprises 190.000 elements and 450.000 reservists, is mandatory.
Graduating from high schools, Israeli males serve three years while females serve a year less.))
Hatred & Enmity
((“The main tasks of the Israeli education system are meant to implanting the seeds of hatred and fear from the other in the Israeli youngsters and tarnishing the image of Arabs in the eyes of the current and future Israeli generations,” she stressed.
She further noted that the gravity of such an Israeli racist education system lies in the fact that the Israeli children, since their prime years, are being fed with hatred, grudge and superiority against Arabs, in particular, and others, in general. ))
“The Arabs are given mean descriptions in the Israeli textbooks such as thugs and thieves,” she said, citing two examples of anti-Arab sentences in the Israeli textbooks to prove her case.
One such clause speak about the “sacrifices” made by early Jewish generations, “despite a harsh climate and an environment full of the Arab embezzlers, thieves and terrorists”.
A second refers to the city of Taparia as a place which is suffering from insecurity and fear from the Arab killers.
The Israeli textbooks also include anti-Arab sentences such as “Arab thieves”, “Arabs are bastards thirsty for the Jewish bloods”, and “underdeveloped Arabs”.))
Palestinian education system:
I do not, need sources because I completed my school studies in Palestine, so my personal experience is enough, there are two stages of Palestinian education system, before and after 1994:
1967-1994
- All our text books and all the books in Palestine, whether school books or general books, should be signed by the military Israeli ruler in my region. The Israeli military leader have the right to ban any book or publication without even mentioning the reason.
- In all our school books, it is not allowed to mention the world ‘’Palestine or Palestinian’’. Even on the maps, they replaced it by Israel. All the Palestinian names are deleted and replaced by Hebrew names. This includes Atlas, geography and history books. (In that moment, we used to buy the Jordanian Atlas from black market because it was banned for mentioning Palestine)
- Not allowed to study anything about modern history or geography of Palestine. We used to study about geography and history of all ME and Europe, but not our country!!
- Every teacher mention the name ‘’Palestine’’ or talk about Palestinian problem will be expelled immediately, and in some cases he will be send to the jail for 6 months.
- If the Israeli military ruler visits our school, all the students and teachers should stand near the road for reception. Any teacher do not join the reception will be expelled and the students will be punished.
From my personal experience:
((In forth class of elementary school , the teacher of Arabic language asked us about the name of our country …. Only 3 students among 30 answered ‘’Palestine’’, while the rest answered ‘’Jordan or West Bank’’ (This show how the Israeli regulations were strict to delete ‘’Palestine from the memory of people). The teacher told us that our country called Palestine, but the Zionist occupied it. After one week later we never see that teacher again!! ))
((In 1982, an Israeli military leader decided to visit our town. In that time many people were sad because of Sabra and Chatila massacre. They sent ordered that all the students (kids) should stand near the main street for reception of the Israeli leader by using different music instruments. During that horrible day, we had to stand under the sun from morning till after noon without rest, food or drink. Five teachers who did not join the reception are expelled or transferred to very far schools as punishment))
After 1994:
As result and support of Oslo agreement, EU decided to print all the school text books. They mentioned for the first time ‘’Palestine” beside Israel. They deleted all Koran verses or any comments could disappoint the Jews. These school texts follow the European standard.
However, respected US and European research institutes found Palestinian textbooks free from any incitement to hatred, The International Herald Tribune reported December 18, 2004.
First: Jews immigrants after 1897 (Zionism) are different than those who came to Palestine in 1860-1882 and built Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira by the help of the native people. If the native people hate the Jews, they can simply kicked them out in first wave of Russian Jews immigration in 1860-1882 bacuse the military and political leadership in the hand of Palestinian in that time (Jazzar in North-Acca and Zahir Omari in Middle, while the South under control of Ibrahim basha). They welcomed the Jews refugees as they did with Bosnian (Bushnaq - Yugoslavia)), Armenian (Turkey), Bahae (Iran), Chechen (Russia).
Second: Jews immigration after 1917 is part of the Anglo-.Zionism strategy of creation of Jews national homeland in Palestine, ignoring the rights of native people or their feelings. Therefore , it is logical that Palestinian (Muslims , Christian, atheists, liberal, right wing , left wing …) to fight back to protect their country. You can call it terrorism, but the reality it is defensive war against horrible imperialist project. Those who decided to fight Zionism and English occupation are heroes in the eyes of every Palestinian, the same as you consider Ben Gurion or Golda Maer hero in the eyes of every Zionists.
Third: Palestinian are living under occupation, so they are the victims. Even the resistance does some mistakes, they still high morally than the occupation authority who force complete nation to live under horrible conditions for generations.
First, my reference to Hajj Amin el-Husseini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni) had nothing to do with his contacts with Nazi Germany (why do you constantly raise that subject?). Rather, I was following your claim on the origins of terrorism in the Middle-East:I claim that the peaceful & legal Jewish settlement in Palestine was forced to establish defensive organisations such as the Haganah - who expelled men of extreme views such as Stern - which is why he had to form his own small organisation. I also referred to the Haganah's aid to the British to find and arrest several Irgun and Lehi members. You can see the division between the Haganah and Etzel in the Altalena Affair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena). Never was it a consensus among the Jewish settlement in Palestine or the Israeli society to use the violent means that you emphasize so much. In contrast, Palestinian society (and the PA) still accepts and even encourages acts of violence against Israel. Don't they understand it's detrimental to all sides?
IMO, the few extremists you refer to and the majority of Palestinian society share one trait: they both accept or turn a blind eye to violence on their behalf, dismiss the perpetrators as "an extremist few", and expect us - the sane majority - to understand it as the result of unfortunate circumstances. It's time the active - and especially the passive - parts on both sides realise everyone has their reasons for creating more violence, and rather than work in a negative way - pointing fingers (and Wiki links) at the other side - start using their energy in a positive way - like helping people understand violence does not solve violence, no matter how much you've suffered.
You must distinguish between the Arab Nations and the Palestinian people. I would love to elaborate on the different meanings, but it seems noone can agree on the meaning of "Palestinian" as there are no definite rules to decide who is and who isn't a Palestinian. It seems there was no definite Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century
it is even harder to define who is jewish and who just took on jewish religion and had absolutelly nothing in common with hebrews who lived in m.east.
90 % of you are ancestors of people from russian steppes who took on judaism as their official religion.
for example in 1991 your government evacuated black jews from Ethiopia yes black, that is almost same story as with jews from russia. Ethiopians in ancient times took on judaism, outside of that zero similarity with ancient hebrews.
so you see each and every palestinian has 1000 X more right to that land than all of you combined, "jews" today are modern day squatters living on stolen land, what is keeping you still there against all odds is unfortunatelly naivitee and dumbness of Americans who as you must well know give billions of $ to the state of Israel.
- Lihi and Itzel rejected UN plan and decided to occupy Jordan and to kick the two nations to Iraq. You can read again about these two groups. Zionism are represented by three groups ; Hagnah, Itzel and Lihi ... so two among them used terrorism and ethic cleansing (e.g. Dair Yassin) as public strategy , while Haganah used to ''kill and to apologies'' .
- No doubt that Begin and shmire (Itzel and Lihi) were big terrorists. Begin did peace agreement with Egypt, because he wanted to declare more wars in the East, so it is good chance to make Egypt neutral. His comments about peace during signing the agreement are very logical. Or you want him to say we should kill all the Arab?
Shamir admitted in 1994 that his intention was not to sign peace agreement but to win the time for building more settlements for Russian Jews in WB and Gaza.
- Except Shimon Peres, could you mention one Zionist leader who his hands are clean from Palestinians blood?
- Arafat awarded also Nobel prise , and the zionists call him terrorist.
You find it important enough to show Menahem Begin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Begin) was a PM during the 70s and 80s but you don't think it's important to state he negotiated the Camp David accords and was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize? When that quote was said, during the British mandate of palestine, Begin never had the popular support Ben-Gurion had, because of these views. Israelis can quote Mahmoud Abbas from 30 years ago but we choose to give him the benefit of the doubt that he deserves - after all, a lot of things can change in 3 decades, right? Having agreed on that, why don't you quote this:
-Menahem Begin, Broadcast to the Egyptian People (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1977-1979/65%20Broadcast%20by%20Prime%20Minister%20Begin%20t o%20the%20Egypti) November 11, 1977
You see, even Begin had the moral strength to realise, 3 decades later, that no matter how strongly you feel about the injustice done to you, fighting will get you nowhere.
Should read "This proves some Jews also rejected UN partial plan". That's all it proves. Here's one Israeli that thinks Israel should pull out of the territories - does that make me a spokesperson for Israel?
Funny, wasn't it Yitzhak Shamir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir) that participated in the Madrid Peace Conference (http://www.google.com/search?q=madrid+conference)? He also held the IDF at bay as Iraqi scuds landed on Israel - do you think Shamir of 3 decades earlier would have done the same?
A PM who allowed his government to fall all for the sake of negotiations for parts of Eretz Israel? Doesn't sound quite like the same man you described.
Whose list?
Can you support that claim?
Those who are interested to know more about Israeli Education system from Human Rights Watch
New York · Washington · London · Brussels
Copyright © September 2001 by Human Rights Watch.
All rights reserved.
Printed in the United States of America
ISBN: 1-56432-266-1
Library of Congress Control Number: 2001095949
SECOND CLASS
Discrimination Against Palestinian
Arab Children in Israel's Schools
PDF Version (550kb) [beta]
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/
First: Any Jews should be allowed to buy land in Palestine, but you can not create State from these lands!! If I have enough money I can buy large Areas in USA … but this not means it is legally to created ‘’independent Bilalian State’’ in USA soil!
Second: Here is from the UN site. Official secret English report show the reality of the problem and the lands owned by Jews:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument
(((On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office for the use of the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine is as follows:
"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."))
((Similarly, a number of Jewish organizations such as the Colonisation Department of the Zionist Organization, financed by the Keren ha-Yesod, were actively engaged in acquisition of land both for individual immigrant families as well as for the Yishuv or Jewish settlements. Several of these organizations had been operating since the nineteenth century, notably the Palestine Jewish Colonisation Association (PICA)*. With the British occupation of Palestine in 1918 all land transactions were suspended. The registers were reopened in 1920, at which time it was estimated that Jewish land acquisitions stood at about 650,000 dunums** or 2.5 per cent of the total land area of 26 million dunums). 71/ By the end of the decade this figure had nearly doubled to 1,200,000 dunums,
just below 5 per cent.))
((If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace." ))
Israel, in its initial form, was not taken away forcefully from anyone. Most of the land was even bought from the Arab land barons, the majority of which resided in Damascus, Beirut, Cairo and Alexandria - only a few lived in the port towns of Akko and Jaffa. Local Arabs who were not violent remain a part of Israel to this very day - they are Israeli citizens just like myself, though there is an undeniable racial problem (one can argue Palestinians are discriminated against in Arab countries worse than Arab Israelis in Israel). Some communities, who are today's Palestinians, were violent to the Jewish population were treated (understandably IMO) with hostility, and apparently in one circumstance there was unnecessary cruelty (Deir Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin)), though that case is still argued by some of the actions participants, and if you read the article, you'll see that the Haganah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah), the largest Jewish force that later became the IDF, opposed attacking the village.
The UN Partition Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan) was accepted by the de-facto Jewish leadership, but the Arab Nations declared there will be no Jewish State under any circumstances, and the morning after the Declaration of Indedependence unprovokedly attacked Israel, who had not even formed an Army yet. You can read more on the War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War).
Until the formation of the PLO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO) in 1964 there was no Palestinian leadership, and they were not viewed as a unique people by Israel or any other country, including the Arab countries. The Arabs countries used them as a means of pressuring Israel, and supplied them with plenty of ammunition and hatred but did little to sincerely assist them. Obviously, they had no real say on anything the Arab countries did.
1. Current nations of ME are mixture of all ancient nations from Sumarian /Pharons till Arab and Turks. Genetically, people belong to different races (Semite, African, European and Asian). People of this region, never annihilated, but they were under attacks of new invaders and then mixed together.
2. Jews are part of ME and as I mentioned before about Jews history in the East. They had great contributed in Islamic civilization in middle ages. Also they have long history in old ages. We have many families in Palestine from Jews origin (e.g. Aun = Gedeon). In fact, we in the Arab world (especially in Iraq) admire this contribution. In our historical books they refer to Jews as skillful people, intelligent and well educated (you can read Arabian nights) . even they reach the highest level in political system by appointing Jacob Iben Kalaf (Egyptian Jews) to be the first Minister during Fatimid Sate in 11 century. He also built one of the most well known mosques in Islamic world (Al Azhar mosque – Cairo)
3. There is big difference between to control and to be citizen ... Beside that Ottoman Empire is not just Turks occupation. It was last Islamic Empires and it was exist officially in Palestine. It was similar to USSR, many nations were united together and created large State, but they were dominant by Turks, the same as USSR was dominant by Russian. People of Palestine were part of (Great Syria) and they had three provinces in their country (Acca - Beirut, Nablus and Jerusalem).
Any country in the world could lose its independence (e.g. Iraq), but surely the nation do not change.... it is the same history of all world countries.
(1) Not all those involved have been living there for thousands of years. For example, certainly the Egyptians were living in, y'know, Egypt.
(2) As Bilal reminds us, Jews have been living there for thousands of years as well.
(3) Arabs can't even say they've controlled for thousands of years. For example, The Brits controlled the area for a couple decades before the creation of Israel, and the Turks for centuries before that. (And you sure don't see Turkey participating in "reclaiming stolen land")
From the Israeli newspaper Haartz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=560441&contrassID=1&subContrassID=9&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=
((A majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the state should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate, according to a survey conducted by the Dahaf Institute on behalf of Madar, the Palestinian Center for Israel Studies.))
If this is the best argument you can come up with to support your claims that Judaism or Zionism are based on "superiority of Jews and racism against the native people", I'm quite content - unlike any of its neighbours, Israel is democratic and people here are entitled to their opinions, just like there are Arab-Israeli parliament members who participate in Palestinian rallies and visit Syria thanks to their PM immunity. That's also why the CEO of the Ministry of Interior is an Israeli Arab and it's also why a lot of them serve in the Security Forces, in all ranks. That's democracy and that's why Arab-Israelis flourish here, as opposed to their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There's still a long way to go, but we're on the right track - Israel's less than 60 years old, filled with resentment like you'd expect a country that has known a war for every decade it's been in existence, and yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia. There is also far more violence between Muslim, Christian and Druze Arabs than there is between Arabs and Jews. You look at that survey and see hatred, I look at it and see hope.
((The survey also found that only 34 percent of Jewish Israelis support a peace deal that entails a full withdrawal to the 1967 borders, while 65 percent oppose it.))I oppose it too, if it means giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinian State - that's why I don't pay attention to surveys unless I see the exact questions asked - there's so many ways you can craft questions to make the survey appear as you'd like it.
The Israeli Arab live in peace in Israel since 1948 and many of them are working in the Israeli army, so why the Jews hate them and want them to leave the land of there forefathers since thousands of years? Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.Where does the survey say anything about hate? You see it as a natural solution to the conflict for Israelis to leave places they've lived in for over a generation, but when some Israelis think the country should encourage Arabs to leave it suddenly becomes a matter of racial hatred.
As far as superiority is concerned, when I get stopped by police it often is an Arab policeman, I served under an Arab officer in the Army and the most holy site to Jews is entirely run and controlled by Muslims - most of the time I can't visit there even if I wanted, whereas Muslims have free access - does that fit in with your view of Judaism/Zionism as "based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people"?
http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134
This is the result of Egyptian research by Safa Abdel Aal, an education expert, about Israeli education system. She work with several International organizations and her reportsOh please. I take you seriously, please don't insult my intelligence with this kind of nonsensical propaganda. Do you want me to start linking to Right-Wing Israeli sites with hatred articles?
Young Israelis are educated about the army as early as the 11th grade, with five days of training that includes learning how to shoot.
A year later, school students receive counseling from a young soldier about draft procedures.What's wrong with that exactly? If anything, there needs to be more counselling. Do you think Israel should not have an Army?
Serving in the Israeli army, which comprises 190.000 elements and 450.000 reservists, is mandatory.Guess why that's necessary? It sure does our economy wonders to be paying for that gigantic army. And still, instead of wiping out Palestinians en masse like you'd expect such a racist Army to be doing, it uses tear gas and rubber bullets whenever possible.
((“The main tasks of the Israeli education system are meant to implanting the seeds of hatred and fear from the other in the Israeli youngsters and tarnishing the image of Arabs in the eyes of the current and future Israeli generations,” she stressed.
She further noted that the gravity of such an Israeli racist education system lies in the fact that the Israeli children, since their prime years, are being fed with hatred, grudge and superiority against Arabs, in particular, and others, in general. ))
“The Arabs are given mean descriptions in the Israeli textbooks such as thugs and thieves,” she said, citing two examples of anti-Arab sentences in the Israeli textbooks to prove her case.
One such clause speak about the “sacrifices” made by early Jewish generations, “despite a harsh climate and an environment full of the Arab embezzlers, thieves and terrorists”.
A second refers to the city of Taparia as a place which is suffering from insecurity and fear from the Arab killers.
The Israeli textbooks also include anti-Arab sentences such as “Arab thieves”, “Arabs are bastards thirsty for the Jewish bloods”, and “underdeveloped Arabs”.)) :rofl:
I do not, need sources because I completed my school studies in Palestine so my personal experience is enough, there are two stages of Palestinian education system, before and after 1994:Seems like they taught you English well. By the way, guess where I completed my school studies? I guess it wasn't in Israel, if that description above is to be believed.
1967-1994
- All our text books and all the books in Palestine, whether school books or general books, should be signed by the military Israeli ruler in my region. The Israeli military leader have the right to ban any book or publication without even mentioning the reason.No he doesn't. Israel has laws, as well as a Judicial Authority (http://62.90.71.124/eng/home/index.html), which is often bashed by the right-winged extremists and lately even by Parliament members for "caring for Palestinians more than Jews". Palestinians regularly appeal to the courts and the High Court often deals with Palestinian issues - no one in Israel has, or ever had absolute power over the Palestinians without having to answer to the courts when an appeal is made.
- In all our school books, it is not allowed to mention the world ‘’Palestine or Palestinian’’. Even on the maps, they replaced it by Israel. All the Palestinian names are deleted and replaced by Hebrew names. This includes Atlas, geography and history books. (In that moment, we used to buy the Jordanian Atlas from black market because it was banned for mentioning Palestine)
- Not allowed to study anything about modern history or geography of Palestine. We used to study about geography and history of all ME and Europe, but not our country!!By saying you did not study modern Palestinian History, do you mean you did not study about the Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Turks and the British Mandate? As I posted above - until the PLO Palestinians had no leadership, and even right now, you can't give a definition of "Palestinian" that'll satisfy everyone, including the Palestinians themselves - do you think the Israelis that set up you education system could've come up with something that you'd be satisfied with? Sounds to me like they were trying to give you education without getting into politics - would you rather Israel would not have set up an education system in the territories? What was it like prior to 1967? What was it like for your brothers in Jordan and Syria? I don't think they got compulsory education, correct me if I'm wrong.
- Every teacher mention the name ‘’Palestine’’ or talk about Palestinian problem will be expelled immediately, and in some cases he will be send to the jail for 6 months.
- If the Israeli military ruler visits our school, all the students and teachers should stand near the road for reception. Any teacher do not join the reception will be expelled and the students will be punished.Can you support these claims? Seeing as until now this wasn't "personal experience".
From my personal experience:
((In forth class of elementary school , the teacher of Arabic language asked us about the name of our country …. Only 3 students among 30 answered ‘’Palestine’’, while the rest answered ‘’Jordan or West Bank’’ (This show how the Israeli regulations were strict to delete ‘’Palestine from the memory of people). The teacher told us that our country called Palestine, but the Zionist occupied it. After one week later we never see that teacher again!! ))Seriously, do you expect Israel to run an education system that teaches its students that it occupies their land?
((In 1982, an Israeli military leader decided to visit our town. In that time many people were sad because of Sabra and Chatila massacre. They sent ordered that all the students (kids) should stand near the main street for reception of the Israeli leader by using different music instruments. During that horrible day, we had to stand under the sun from morning till after noon without rest, food or drink. Five teachers who did not join the reception are expelled or transferred to very far schools as punishment))I suppose I'll have to take your word for the validity of this account, though I sense you're exaggerating things a bit. Whatever happened on that day, you managed to fit Sabra and Shatila nicely into the story - nice work.
After 1994:
As result and support of Oslo agreement, EU decided to print all the school text books. They mentioned for the first time ‘’Palestine” beside Israel. They deleted all Koran verses or any comments could disappoint the Jews. These school texts follow the European standard.I don't get it, those Koran verses appeared in the textbooks before 1994? And are we talking about Jews, Israelis or the EU?
However, respected US and European research institutes found Palestinian textbooks free from any incitement to hatred, The International Herald Tribune reported December 18, 2004.Can you support that claim? A link would be nice.
I would love to give some of my own personal accounts, but I don't think anyone here is silly enough to believe personal accounts from someone who obviously is trying to prove a point.
klusener
May1-05, 02:39 PM
Here's the link:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.php
But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.
Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel, meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the same, they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?
First: Jews immigrants after 1897 (Zionism) are different than those who came to Palestine in 1860-1882 and built Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira by the help of the native people. If the native people hate the Jews, they can simply kicked them out in first wave of Russian Jews immigration in 1860-1882 bacuse the military and political leadership in the hand of Palestinian in that time (Jazzar in North-Acca and Zahir Omari in Middle, while the South under control of Ibrahim basha). They welcomed the Jews refugees as they did with Bosnian (Bushnaq - Yugoslavia)), Armenian (Turkey), Bahae (Iran), Chechen (Russia).The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realised Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself.
Second: Jews immigration after 1917 is part of the Anglo-.Zionism strategy of creation of Jews national homeland in PalestineI don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
...ignoring the rights of native people or their feelings. Therefore , it is logical that Palestinian (Muslims , Christian, atheists, liberal, right wing , left wing …) to fight back to protect their country.So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.
You can call it terrorism, but the reality it is defensive war against horrible imperialist project.I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realised there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.
Those who decided to fight Zionism and English occupation are heroes in the eyes of every Palestinian, the same as you consider Ben Gurion or Golda Maer hero in the eyes of every Zionists.Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.
Third: Palestinian are living under occupation, so they are the victims. Even the resistance does some mistakes, they still high morally than the occupation authority who force complete nation to live under horrible conditions for generations.Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.
loseyourname
May1-05, 02:49 PM
What you mean ? how they can be taken OTHER way around, it is like black on white ? Isaraelis stole Palestinian Land, and Palestinians are fighting untill this very day, show me other group of people with that much honor and courage .
You're talking about what you think actually happened. I'm talking about what is being said in the quotation. They aren't necessarily related.
klusener
May1-05, 02:52 PM
I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
because the Zionists wanted that entire land, instead of just a piece as offered by the British..
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever." Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
- from Bilal's post earlier
Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.
Isn't he already using his energy peacefully?
But that comment you made about English is a pathetic.
Are you talking about "Seems like they taught you English well."? I'm pretty sure he wasn't being sarcastic...
klusener
May1-05, 03:03 PM
It doesn't matter if he was being sarcastic or not, if Arabic was used commonly in a forum, then he would be the clearest and yonoz or me for that matter would type like bumbling idiots.. :)
Edit: or you for that matter too.. :biggrin: just kidding friend.
it is even harder to define who is jewish and who just took on jewish religion and had absolutelly nothing in common with hebrews who lived in m.east.Wrong. I'm sorry but I don't have the time to run you through Jewish History (http://www.jewishhistory.org.il/), but I guarantee, it's quite repetitive :smile:
As for who is Jewish, it's quite simple - from a religious perspective, if your mother's Jewish, you're Jewish. When previously unknown Jewish communities are discovered, such as the case with the Ethiopian Jews, there's always some unltra-orthodox who'll claim they're not Jewish but you can see they practice customs that are practiced only by Jewish people - quite amazing since we've been apart for thousands of years. There's also some genetic traits, some of which are unique to one of the 12 tribes (we know this because this tribe's decendants have unique surnames).
90 % of you are ancestors of people from russian steppes who took on judaism as their official religion.How do you know who I'm an ancestor of? Just kidding. I guess you meant my ancestors - can you back that up with a reliable source?
for example in 1991 your government evacuated black jews from Ethiopia yes black, that is almost same story as with jews from russia.That's right, black. They practice near similar Judaism - whatever the historical reasons for that, the State of Israel is a home to Jews everywhere, and when the Ethiopian Jewry was endangered by the ongoing strife there, we brought them here - is that wrong?
Ethiopians in ancient times took on judaism, outside of that zero similarity with ancient hebrews.ok - does that make them less Jewish? Because they're black?
so you see each and every palestinian has 1000 X more right to that land than all of you combined, "jews" today are modern day squatters living on stolen land, what is keeping you still there against all odds is unfortunatelly naivitee and dumbness of Americans who as you must well know give billions of $ to the state of Israel.Well that's a very simplistic view. Seems like the naive one is yourself. Moreover, you don't know your history, as the ties with the US became strong only after the French gave up on us in the 70s because of Arab pressure.
Let me ask you just one question: if Israel is stolen land, where should Jews have established their homeland?
That's democracy and that's why Arab-Israelis flourish here, as opposed to their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There's still a long way to go, but we're on the right track - Israel's less than 60 years old, filled with resentment like you'd expect a country that has known a war for every decade it's been in existence, and yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia. craft questions to make the survey appear as you'd like it.
.
how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ? palestinian society was quite democratic and liberal but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.
- Lihi and Itzel rejected UN plan and decided to occupy Jordan and to kick the two nations to Iraq.Sounds like a respectable group of straight-minded individuals! I wonder why so few people followed them...
You can read again about these two groups. Zionism are represented by three groups ; Hagnah, Itzel and Lihi ... so two among them used terrorism and ethic cleansing (e.g. Dair Yassin) as public strategy , while Haganah used to ''kill and to apologies'' .Yep, 2 out of 3 groups - that must mean that most Zionists of that time were members in those 2 groups - 2 is more than 1 right? Come on Bilal, I asked you not to insult my intelligence. YOU should read about them again and see how many members were in those groups and how many were in the Haganah. When did the Haganah "kill and apologise"? Even if they did, it's more than you can ever say about Palestinian "freedom fighters".
- No doubt that Begin and shmire (Itzel and Lihi) were big terrorists.Very big. They started the method of sending people to blow busloads of civilians up eh?
Begin did peace agreement with Egypt, because he wanted to declare more wars in the East, so it is good chance to make Egypt neutral.So Begin tricked the poor Egyptians? and they signed a trick peace treaty? and then he made war in the East? against who?
His comments about peace during signing the agreement are very logical. Or you want him to say we should kill all the Arab?No, just like I don't expect him to sign a trick peace treaty.
- Except Shimon Peres, could you mention one Zionist leader who his hands are clean from Palestinians blood?Um, all of them?
- Arafat awarded also Nobel prise , and the zionists call him terrorist.Let's see, Arafat lives and there's fighting. Arafat is dead - and there's a peace process. Also, I never heard of anyone who accepts a peace prize, or a Nobel prize, in military uniform.
Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.
First: Any Jews should be allowed to buy land in Palestine, but you can not create State from these lands!! If I have enough money I can buy large Areas in USA … but this not means it is legally to created ‘’independent Bilalian State’’ in USA soil!What if your land had been ruled at first by empires no longer in existence and then by a third country under a UN mandate, and you had a UN resolution that called for the establishment of Bilalia - would that be enough? How about all these other nations, have they been in existence since the beginning of time?
Second: Here is from the UN site. Official secret English report show the reality of the problem and the lands owned by Jews:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument
(((On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office for the use of the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine is as follows:
"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."))
((Similarly, a number of Jewish organizations such as the Colonisation Department of the Zionist Organization, financed by the Keren ha-Yesod, were actively engaged in acquisition of land both for individual immigrant families as well as for the Yishuv or Jewish settlements. Several of these organizations had been operating since the nineteenth century, notably the Palestine Jewish Colonisation Association (PICA)*. With the British occupation of Palestine in 1918 all land transactions were suspended. The registers were reopened in 1920, at which time it was estimated that Jewish land acquisitions stood at about 650,000 dunums** or 2.5 per cent of the total land area of 26 million dunums). 71/ By the end of the decade this figure had nearly doubled to 1,200,000 dunums,
just below 5 per cent.))
((If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace." ))Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended for themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?
klusener
May1-05, 03:43 PM
yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia.
Israeli Arabs had full civil rights here long before the English landed in Australia.
This thread has since long lost its humanistic begginning, and whatever diplomatic or academic purpose it may have had at some point.
With that said, I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).
Here's the link:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.phpThanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks
But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.
Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel.1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil another attempt (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html) to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".
meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the sameLike our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.
they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?Yes, I don't think I got your point.
I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learnt while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world :approve:
Does that mean the thread is closed?
Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learnt while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world :approve:
Does that mean the thread is closed?
Yes, a lot of things. From both you and Bilal. However, without some sincere intellectual honesty and effort I see this thread becoming the justice-flamewar of the month.
Keep it cool and keep on saving :approve: Thanks!
Oh, and it means nothing, it was just my oppinion. :smile:
klusener
May1-05, 04:47 PM
Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks
What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.
I think you misunderstood my comment.
another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry :rolleyes: .. sorry man I had to say that..
how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ?So I suppose you expect all Israelis to sit quietly as our blood is spilled. It was clearly shown, and acknowledged by the EU, that the PA under Arafat was actively supporting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Israelis#The_al-Aqsa_Intifada) and encouraging acts of terror against civilian targets in Israel. Since there was no democracy to begin with, the least harmful option (other than to do nothing) was to attack Arafat's power base. There is no more of that going on today, as Arafat is dead. Every target was carefuly chosen and analysed, and you'll find that the PA is closer to democracy today than it ever was under Arafat.
palestinian society was quite democratic and liberalYou must be living in another world.
but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.We have tried giving them land, that's how the PA was formed, what we got in return was PA-supported bloodshed (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Palestinian%20terror%20before%202000/Fatal%20Terrorist%20Attacks%20in%20Israel%20Since% 20the%20DOP%20-S) - these bombings are during the most intensive negotiations, they use them as leverage to gain more at the negotiations. In 2000 the same (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada) happened in 2000 when the left-wing Labour party was elected, and we all thought this is it, we'll have peace now, but like someone said once, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Before Barak lost the next election he offered them a treaty so good it caused an outrage in Israel, but they still said no! Currently, the PA would not sign a peace treaty unless it meets terms that we can not agree to - like giving up Jerusalem, our capital (personaly I would not object to an intricate internationalization, but I understand those who want to keep it Israeli). That's why Sharon has been forced to carry out the disengagement plan, and it will happen in 4 months (it's a little hard to move tens of thousands of people with their businesses and belongings, especially if they're resisting). So far, Israel is making most of the concessions in the peace process.
What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.
You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
CMIP October 2004 report (http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf)
MEMRI Special Report 22 (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?&ID=SR2203)
klusener
May1-05, 05:12 PM
You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
CMIP October 2004 report (http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf)
MEMRI Special Report 22 (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?&ID=SR2203)
thanks for the links..
MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?
still reading the first pdf, well downloading it right now.. i appreciate your effort in getting the links again..
another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry :rolleyes: .. sorry man I had to say that..Is that a pro-Bush comment? :bugeye:
klusener
May1-05, 05:17 PM
no, but I don't like John Kerry either...
MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?Think what you like, have you seen some of their content? The only people who would commit themselves to translate Arab media would obviously have some agenda - you just have to know how to seperate fact from opinion. They also cover positive events, too, it gives good insight into the reform in the Arab world. I'd be glad if you could direct me to a service that does similar work and you consider unbiased.
Anyway, I'd rather hear what's really on PA TV from a westerner than from a Palestinian.
no, but I don't like John Kerry either...
Yeah I guess there are some advantages to living in the Middle East.
Oh well, it's way past my bed time - night everyone :zzz:
klusener
May1-05, 05:24 PM
No, the links I clicked on when I visited the site seemed to invite Western anger, for example: Anti-American Cartoons, Common Antisemitic Cartoons, Jews and Israelis as Nazis and Hitler, and Jews and Israelis Controlling the U.S. Government.
I mean there has to be atleast one Arab newspaper that publishes good cartoons, right? Why don't they show those?
That's what prompted me to type that.. maybe I should spend some more time on the site..
Edit: have a good night ;)
russ_watters
May1-05, 08:19 PM
Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on. It wasn't my thread. :wink: This is part of the problem. I can understand how you arrive at your interpretation of things, even if I don't agree with it. You can't even understand how we arrived at our interpretation, even after I said how!
Is it because you don't try? Are you faking incredulity, because you think admitting you see how we got our viewpoint would be a show of weakness? This is so huge, I want to re-emphasize it: I freely acknowledge that the Israelis are doing bad things. Demolishing settlements is one of those things. Simultaneously, the Palestinians do have some claim to the land. So why won't the other side of this argument acknowledge the complimentary points: why won't you guys acknowledge that the Israelis also have a legitimate claim to the land? Why won't those of you on the other side of the argument acknowledge that the neighboring arabs and Palestinians are doing bad things?
Why are some people unwilling to even look at both sides of the issue? If you make an honest effort to see both sides and come to a conclusion different than mine, fine. Different people can reasonably disagree. Heck, I can even accept strong bias if there is a good reason for it (ie, a Arab who has a loved-one die in an Israeli rocket attack has a good excuse for irrational bias - even hatred). But even then, you still have to try. But what is just plain unacceptable is an outright refusal to even try be objective. That is actually what such conflicts are based on.
The whole reason that there seems to be progress is that there are now in power in both groups, leaders that appear to be making an honest effort to let go of their biases and look for a reasonable solution that both could accept.
[late edit for grammar]
Dear Yonoz,
You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.
I am wasting several hours to find document from UN and international sources to support my opinion so the others can trust them, and you seems find it easy to ‘’give’’ negative answers for my posts. Please support your views by acceptable references for both sides. No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ). Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources. Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.
Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.
- You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.
• I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these text books before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite.. How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely? Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.
• After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the text books after the Israeli check them.
klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.
I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion. We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.
- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.
- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.
- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!!
Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.
It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.
During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.
((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).
The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realised Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself..
Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do beleive he knew more about the situation than you:
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)
I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.
I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realised there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.
Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.
Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.
I do believe in peace and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.
The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:
- One democratic State with equal rights for all people .... Everyone free in his religion.
- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions....
If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone.. Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions.... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.
Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …
Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.
russ_watters
May2-05, 12:08 PM
Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do beleive he knew more about the situation than you.... Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.
Dear Yonoz,
You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.Dear Bilal,
Thankyou for welcoming me to this forum. Are you a moderator? I gather not. I believe my way of discussion is valid. If you would like to comment on my way of discussion, you may PM me as it is a personal matter and there is no need to put on a display for other forum members. If I am in breach of any rule of conduct you may direct me to the appropriate documentation and/or report my post to a moderator. I will not be dragged into personal confrontations in an open forum.
No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).MEMRI is the only site that translates such an extent of Arab media. If you can come up with an agreeable alternative I will be more than happy to use it. Your personal opinions of MEMRI are your own, if you would like to question the validity of MEMRI please back that up with reliable evidence. As I stated in a previous post, I find it to be very informative as it covers all aspects of Arab media, including evidence of reform.
Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources.You are exaggerating again. Surely I could not have posted thousands of links. Most of my links are to Wikipedia. Furthermore, your use of the words "Jewish" and "Zionist" implies that such sources can not be trusted - I find that insulting. No one here has ever even insinuated the same for Palestinian sources, even though I find their validity extremely questionable.
Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.Some of which you have already used, such as this venomous, manipulative piece (http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134).
You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.And you sir are a fine example. Look at your views of Judaism and Zionism:
Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.
I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these text books before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite..How can I possibly prove the opposite when you do not give any details? Like I said, it's up to the individual to judge how trustworthy your accounts here. I did not even include my personal opinion on the integrity of that story.
How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely?After the Oslo Accords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) the PA had full control over what was in the textbooks. This reminds me - you claimed they had Israel on the maps - I claim they showed the entire area as Palestine, with no mention of Israel.
Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.As I said, Israel did more for the Palestinians than all Arab nations combined.
After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the text books after the Israeli check them.Israel had no control over the contents of the textbooks, even if it was made available to it officially.
klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.How did I ignore it exactly? I responded by giving a list of several articles that say the opposite. In contrast, you did not answer my first question about the picture of an Israeli father and son who you claimed was learning to kill Palestinians, nor have you answered my question on top of what list was Shamir present, nor have you responded to my request that you support the your slanderous claim "most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people", should I continue?
I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion.As you can see, my way of discussion is very methodic - I quote a relevant part of your post, and include my reply directly below it, so that it doesn't scatter.
We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.Are you really here to understand me? I think not.
- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers.. without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine. I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.
- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands.... Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.
Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ... it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders. Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.
Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended for themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?
It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...
Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.
Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...
Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)
Iranian Jews belong to Persian race
Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...
Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.
Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks
I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.
1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil another attempt (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html) to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".
Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.
Yes, I don't think I got your point.
These quotes in early 70s, short time before his death. All the settlements he mentioned are built after 1948.
He mentioSince the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.
This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?
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Some of which you have already used, such as this venomous, manipulative piece (http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134).
.
- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.Most Jews who arrived in Palestine were refugees - let's not get into that whole persecution thing okay?
- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.Read my post again. I said that the early settlers did settle in inhabitable areas (Hadera existed as a khan, a road-stop for quite a while) and only after those centres were established could they start settlements in the uninhabitable areas, such as the swamplands all around Hadera and the northern parts of the Negev Desert. Israel is more than just Hadera and Petah-Tikva, you know.
- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!!Oh please...
Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.
It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.:rofl: When does Dr. Evil come in?
During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.
((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).You sure like turning facts around don't you? It wasn't a dam, it was a series of canals on the slopes of the Golan Heights that were meant to divert the water coming from there from reaching the Sea of Galilee, where Israel gets nearly all of its water, to the Yarmuch river, that flows directly into the Jordan river, thus depriving Israel of its water supply. Those semi-built canals still exist today, covered in vegetation, you can barely trace them when looking up at the Golan Heights from the Sea of Galilee.
Dear Yonoz, :smile:
I think both of us live in war zone, so it is impossible to convince each other, so let the other (from outside Palestine/Israel) to contribute ....Please do not take my discussion personal against you. I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully.... believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them, so no need to start to attack our nations. Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas... because it is my daily life under occupation.
Best wishes for you and your family..
Lets the people who live out the conflict ask if they have any questions, then I and Yonoz can show the two sides of the story.
klusener
May2-05, 03:38 PM
Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).
yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.
The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)
Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do beleive he knew more about the situation than you:
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and noone thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.
Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibilty of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.
These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?
I do believe in peaceDo you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?
...and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?
The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.
- One democratic State with equal rights for all people .... Everyone free in his religion.Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.
- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions....That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.
If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone..Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the seperation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?
Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions.... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran?
Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?
- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers..There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?
without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine.What qualifies you to state that as a fact? Have you travelled to a parallel universe in which no Arab revolution occured? I don't think that had the British never taken over Palestine they would not have won the war - and therefor they may have taken the territory in the resulting treaties.
I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.That's nice of you.
- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands....You emphasized the text in the article that said because they did it the world is a less peaceful place.
Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.The UN division plan called for a Palestinian state, and that was accepted by both the UK and the Jewish leadership - we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.
Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ...Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.
it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders.What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.
Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?
It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...Yes, the real world can be funny sometimes.
Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?
Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...
Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)
Iranian Jews belong to Persian race
Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...
Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?
This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?Read my post again, I was referring to the article, which is one big puddle of venom.
Please do not take my discussion personal against you.You mean this is not personal?You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.
...
Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.
I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully....We can, and are doing so right now.
believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them,Where have I heard that before?
so no need to start to attack our nations.I never attacked your nation. My point has always been that Palestinians should do more on their side to achieve peace in the region. If you had used your skills to promote non-violence in Palestinian society rather than try and smear Israel as much as you possibly can, I would be very happy. Yet you constantly channel your energies in a negative fashion, that harms both sides.
Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas...Have you considered the possibility that your ideas are an obstacle to the peace you pray for? Peace needs more than prayers, I'm afraid. It requires brave actions, like protesting against your own government, like being out there in the zones of conflict and making sure your side does as little harm as possible. It requires patience as your own people accuse you of treason, only because you try and do what's best for them. It requires strength to keep your faith as people around you die because of senseless violence that the other side refuses to abandon. But most of all, it requires compassion, forgiveness and empathy.
because it is my daily life under occupation.The occupation takes its toll on all of us, Bilal. The only way to end it is to channel the negative energies away from the perpetual circle of violence. Accusations and excuses will only increase it more.
Best wishes for you and your family..Same to you and your family, and keep safe.
Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.
The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to seperate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.
klusener
May2-05, 06:20 PM
Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..
Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World (http://memri.org/reform.html)
An interview with Egyptian liberal Kamal Gabriel (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151)
Here's an interesting piece: Saudi liberal (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=58051)
I am sorry that you twist the facts again . I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist. … I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!! :bugeye:
I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and noone thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.))
It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.
-Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants. Israel has no moral justification to be created by destruction of other nation. In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of others. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.
- You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :
1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.
2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries. They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities in the world declared war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth? Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?
Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back. Palestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organised attacks and masscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_war
((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))
Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:
((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))
- Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:
In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))
((Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibilty of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.
Settlers are criminals not civilians. Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza. Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations. It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth. May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.
((Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.
These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?
Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities. What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that. They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland. It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology which considered as form of racism by UN from 1975 till 1991 (thanks to Bush the father who cancelled this resolution).
Do you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?
When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?
Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel!! You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!!
Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians. Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering. Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace. Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace. You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves.
Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations. You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?
Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.
If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists. The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist. From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.
Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.
That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.[/Yonoz]
Of course you want to annex the occupied land but you do not want the people who live there for thousands of years, because they are not Jews. Annexing West Bank and Gaza means no superiority of Jews over others, this means you should:
-Cancel the racist law of return, which allowed ONLY person with Jews mother or those convert to Judiasm and accepted by Rabbi to return.
- No need to call it Jews State, because if we call USA as Christian State, then it will not be real democracy. Simply everyone free in his/her religion, and the State should be for all people.
In other words, you should declare the ‘’end of Zionism’’ or to reform it to be more peaceful and accept the others as human.
[QUOTE=Yonoz]Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the seperation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?
And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran??
- What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.
- We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread. Our freedom and dignity is the most important. Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading... this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.
-Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.
Here is map and pictures of this wall:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en
Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?
http://www.4blacksheep.com/photos/separation_wall/
I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?
Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?
How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?
There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...
What Israel offer within this period:
- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.
- Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.
- Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.
-Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.
- 4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.
-Destruction of thousands of houses.
-Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.
This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!
There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?
I did not hear that god sent nations from sky!!!
Every community of people live on common land can create new nation. We were called (Shami people) since thousands of years– Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese … after colonist era, this nation divided into four nations.
If people of my town decided to create new nation called (Nabulsian nation-Nablus city) this is their rights and this is not means they came suddenly from sky!!!
If people of Californian decided to get independence to and to call themselves Californian nation … then they create new geopolitical constitution but without changing the demography.
People exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but the political position change, and thus we can hear new political names as indication of major geopolitical changes ….
What called Israeli nation is unique phenomenon:
- They were religious communities who have no common history or race since more than 2000 years.
- They have no common land, because they are parts from different nations. For example, Iraqi Jews have history in Iraq; he has the same color and the same culture. French Jews had history in France and he has the color …
- These different communities are united to make new nation and to steal the homeland of other nation who live there for thousands of years without any moral or logical justification, just based on jungle laws.
we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.
Show me any proof?
Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.
Do you mean that there are no innocent Palestinian? do you cry only for Israeli victims who lost their lives because they decide to live on stolen land in WB and Gaza and you ignore all those Palestinian victims?
Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews, while all Zionist victims from 1897 till 2004 around 21000. Among them, 18000 were killed in five wars with Arab countries...
Sharon murdered in Lebanon 1982 more than all its victims in one century of Zionism.
That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?
Why ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate? What the reason behind that?
What about millions of Palestinian refugees?
Why Muslims and Christian can not immigrate also?
Of course (right wing of Zionism- including the current Israeli government) is evil. It is also crime against Jews people, who deserve to live in peace after the Holocaust.. they declared this injustice war in the name of Jews people who suffer a lot from racism and hate through centuries.
Palestinian and Jews do not deserve all this blood because of crazy ideas of Zionism.
What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.?
Do you mean ‘’rule of nature’’ is excuse also for NAZI to murdered millions of innocent people 2WW? Why you cry for Jews victims in 2WW, if Hitler murdered them based ‘’on rule of nature’’?
It is great at end to admit that Zionism ideology and creation of Israel based on ‘’rule of nature’’.
You found peaceful nation in Palestine. They work hard in their farms to educate their kids and get respectful life. Christian, Jews, Muslims, atheists.. live together in peace for centuries .. They welcomed all ‘’poor refugees’’ from different religions and communities in their peaceful homeland.
Suddenly, an Austrian Jews meet each other and decided to apply ‘’rule of nature’’ on this peaceful and weak nation (they also proposed the Uganda and Argentine (colored people) …. So they collaborate with imperialists, who believe in rule of nature and they invaded this peaceful nation and destroyed it!!
After all, in the name of ‘’rule of nature ‘’ Zionists ask the Palestinian to surrender completely and to accept the facts on ground!!
The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?
I said before, I do not agree to ask the Jews to leave, but we should stop all this violent, hate and racism. Simply, you should see the Zionism and Israel in the real world, it is not logical to blame the Palestinian who is victims for everything. I do not care about the religion or color of my neighbor … and I am not appointed by god to judge people , everyone free in his life. All what I need , that my neighbor should not come one day to kick me from my house and to kill my kids because he believe in religious myth.
You also know that 90% of settlers of WB are extreme religious and they give very bad image about Jews. We rarely met peaceful Jews, but everyday we meet those bloody and religious settlers who want to kill us for fun.. and the Israeli soldiers feel happy to mistreat the Palestinian civilians everyday on checkpoints.
Please do not blame the Palestinian for having bad image about Israel, replace those settlers by peaceful Jews we will live in peace with them.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...
Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?
I know Jews history and I highly respect them (please read my previous posts about contribution of Jews in ME civilisation). I am very angry from Zionism because of its crimes against Jews and Palestinian. We should not have all this hate and violence … we have many common things and we should build better future instead to live as Masters and slaves, because one side got support from USA!
So what, You can read also for these Jews who ask for reformation of zionism and see it as the source of the troubles for Jews and Arab
http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm
There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World (http://memri.org/reform.html)
An interview with Egyptian liberal Kamal Gabriel (http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151)
MEMRI and many Zionist sites (especially after 11/9) became new version of Zion protocols . They doing with Arab what anti Semite Russian and German did with them.
They show Arab as pure evil and root of troubles in all human history. They focus on speech or text from here and there to show the Arab in evil image …
In 30s, Hitler used this strategy against the German Jews. His propaganda machine used to focus on quotes of some Jews who live in USA and UK to tell the German that Jews want to annihilate the German race, so our war with them is to be or not to be!!
I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to seperate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.
I am sorry that you again twist the truth again and show your arrogance.Funny, since I first read this thread I wanted to say the same about your posts. Didn't want to make it personal though - guess it's too late for that now.
I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist.What common things did you try to find? My discussion is peaceful - in spite of your efforts to inflame me. As an example, you still use the word "Zionist" in a derogatory manner. I'll ask you again - what is your definition of Zionism?
I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!!Are comments like this one your idea of "trying to find common things and peaceful discussion"?
It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.I present my perspective of the conflict. Other parties may decide for themselves what to make of it. That is the way discussions of this sort work.
Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants.What was illegal or militant about Jewish immigration prior to the Jerusalem pogrom of 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_pogrom_of_April%2C_1920)? Even if there was illegal immigration, does it justify violence? Does anything short of an unresolvable threat ever justify violence?
Israel has no moral justification tocraeted by destruction opf otherNo one claimed it has. Israel was founded in accordance with the UN Partition Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan). It is the Arab nations that attacked it with the expressed aim of annihilating it, less than a day after it declared independence.
In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of otherfireners militasnts called ‘’Zionists”. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.There you go with your "common things and peaceful discussion" again.
You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :
1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.There you go mentioning Deir Yassin again. Of course you would, since that's about the only display of unnecessary violence from the Jewish side. Furthermore, I have acknowledged that fact several times already - it's time you acknowledged the violence on your side prior to that incident, which surpasses the acts of Deir Yassin a thousandfold. Remember this is during a time of hostilities (hostilities that were initiated by Arabs), and was perpetrated by small extremist factions against the position of the Haganah. Furthermore, Arab leaders expressed their intentions to annihilate Israel long before its declaration of independence and long before Deir-Yassin. As a matter of fact, if you actually read the wikipedia article, you'll see Iraqi and Syrian troops were attempting to enter the village - which is quite far away from Syria and Iraq - prior to the attack. Actually, Arab armies were fully prepared to invade as soon as Israel declared independence during that time. What rapes are you talking about? What military parade?
2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries.Really? Are you saying 95% of all Zionists were born before 1948? Surely more than 5% of all Zionists are younger than 58. I guess now you'll say that you meant their parents - well, if we go back far enough, 100% of all Zionists are from Palestine. That's why I focus on the future, rather than on the past. If you try settling this argument by determining who has first right to the land you'll end up in a dead-lock. Then again, it seems you are not interested in settling this argument.
They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities I the world declare war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth?What war on the Palestinians? When did all the Zionist communities in the world declare war to destroy Palestine? All they wanted to do was establish a homeland in peaceful means. Aren't all religions myths? Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?No. Are you comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and WW2 Japan?
Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back, Plaeslestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organista attacks and msscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_warYou know very well there were plenty of hostilities before 1948. Still, let me quote from that same article:
At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.
Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.
There it is in plain terms: "Jewish immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs". And this is well before Deir Yassin that you like mentioning so much (maybe you don't like it, but I guess if I had only one incident to prove my point I'd overuse it too).
((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.This just goes to further prove that Lehi and the "Irgun" were not acting in the best interests of the Jewish population, which is why they were disliked so much by it.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))So you agree that Arab nations participated in the fighting before the Israel was even founded by sending irregulars to organize and train the locals.
Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:
((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))Reading your quotation of the article, I got a feeling you missed something (inadvertently, I'm sure) - why else would they write "Some of these villages"? They must have made a reference to them in a previous sentence. So I went and checked, and I recommend everyone who read this does too, since Bilal makes it seem as if they were attacked out of the blue for no reason other than pure cruelty. One thing for sure, you contradicted once again your previous claim that Arab nations were involved in the fighting only because of Deir Yassin, since the article states it gave them further reason.
Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:
In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))Once again, selective quotation. Everyone should read that part of the article themselves and make up their own minds. I will say one thing though: Arab armies had superior firepower, with 40 tanks (compared to 1 without gun by the Jewish forces) and 140 artillery pieces (compared to 5 Jewish ones, without sights). Not to mention the amount of armored cars they had. Most of the Arab armies' weapons were WW2 surplus, and they had a very good share of experienced leaders themselves. The advantage the Jewish forces had was that they were fighting for their homes and lives. From that same article:
In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.BTW, those are 3 of the 5 artillery pieces mentioned above. The other two were brought from Mexico, and had those big old wooden wheels like you see in western movies. You can see them in a museum in Jaffa.
Settlers are criminals not civilians.What settlers do you mean? Some modern day settlers I consider criminals also, but they are all civilians nonetheless - a civilian can be a criminal too, you know. I spend a good share of my time confronting them. When have you last confronted a Palestinian criminal?
Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza.I didn't understand that sentence.
Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations.I agree completely.
It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth.Nope, it is a proof that the worst case against Israel is that it is building houses. I agree it's not that simple, but you can't justify the violence and hatred directed at it. Moreover, attacking Israel only strengthens the public view of the settlers. Violence brings about only more violence. Hatred strengthens people's sense of fear and nationalism.
May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.I don't know, it's been a while since the crusades and while the west seems to have gotten over the war with the Muslim world, it sure seems you haven't.
Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities.Funny, those names are pretty similar. Doesn't sound like something I would do if I wanted to wipe all memories of those places.
What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that.You interpret it in a way you see truthful, I interpret it in my way and to me it is just as truthful, but carries another meaning.
They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland.So when did this nation ever govern this homeland? I even showed that when asked to elect a Palestinian representative for the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 they adopted this resolution:We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds. This nation doesn't seem too eager on independence to me. Maybe they don't mind having other Arabs rule them, but they sure have something against Jews, even if they set up an education system for them.
It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology.Why is it funny? Do you believe Zionists have no morals?
Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel!!I ask why you defend violence and this is your answer? I can clearly see now you are not interested in peace one bit.
You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!!I guess this must be a really good joke then: Palestinian Terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism)
Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians.You sound like a true man of peace.
Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering.Pain and suffering of all types of people, Bilal, not just Palestinian. You see things in a very single-minded fashion.
Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace.If there would not have been such violence resistance to the peaceful immigration, it would have been.
Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace.I thought you mentioned earlier Jewish settlers from prior to 1897. I guess the crusades were scouts camping, and Lawrence of Arabia was a movie star.
You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves. That's a very peaceful comment.
Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations.I'm sorry, I guess we should have stayed in all those other nations who were treating us so well. Who likes treating other nations as slaves now? Who likes superiority over others now? There are so many Arab states, but Jews shouldn't even be allowed to have one on a piece of land that was mostly uninhabitted before they cultivated it? Are we meant to forever live among other nations without ever knowing true independence, true equality, true safety?
You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?Yes, I can see how blowing up groups of kids outside nightclubs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4299609.stm) protects someone's life.
If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists.What magical transformation power this occupation has. I never thought that mass murder could be so easily explained.
The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist.We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.
From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.I guess the Munich Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) and the Sabena hijacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe) were perpetrated by the easter bunny, and that the Ma'alot Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre) was santa clause's doing.
What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.So why is this acceptable:If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews citiesIs it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?
We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread.I am not happy to live as a part of an occupation, but I'm even less happy to live under constant terrorism, persistent even as my leadership sits at the negotiating table with Palestinian leaders.
Our freedom and dignity is the most important.You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.
Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading...I never claimed that. BTW it is mostly a fence, it is a wall only where there can be direct shooting at Israeli civilians from the Palestinian side.
this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.As opposed as I am to the location of the wall, it is you who is misleading. None of those claims are correct.
Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.I'm sure you'll leave us alone then.
Here is map and pictures of this wall:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en
Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?Your use of the word Nazi is so peaceful. I thought a moment ago you called for building of the wall on the borders - do you think it will look any different on the borders? I bet you wouldn't be using those pictures to manipulate people's feelings if that wall was around a Jewish city like you want.
You see, unlike yourself, I am against all walls, wherever they may be. I also understand that fence has saved many Israeli lives, as much as I dislike it. I hope it will be torn down as soon as possible, but as long as Palestinians legitimate the practice of violence against Israeli civilians and do nothing to stop it, our government's duty is to protect them as best it can, as is the duty of every democratic government in this world.
Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?No but unlike other aspects of the problem they are killing innocent people.
How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?
There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...I already proved that is a lie.
What Israel offer within this period:
- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.There was no such massacre.
Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.What massacre? I ran a google search and couldn't find any massacre in the Hebron University.
Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.Same as above, what massacre?
Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.Couldn't find anything on it. Do these "massacres" even exist?
4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.Support that comment.
Destruction of thousands of houses.Before 1994? Let's see you prove that.
Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.From all you said until now Israel has stolen well over 100% of Arabs' land and water - quite an achievement.
This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!No one said they were the source of the problem, but they are murdering innocent civilians, and you are supporting them, right here, right now. You can pray for peace as much as you want, if you don't stop the violence it will never come. I understand you're too busy coming up with excuses why you are killing innocent civilians to stop the violence though.
I did not hear that god sent nations from sky!!!Yet you said Jews simply appeared all over the globe and chose to steal the land of the Palestinians.
Every community of people live on common land can create new nation. We were called (Shami people) since thousands of years– Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese … after colonist era, this nation divided into four nations.But you chose to remain a part of Arab Syria or South Syria as you called it. Your only problem is being ruled by non-Arabs.
If people of my town decided to create new nation called (Nabulsian nation-Nablus city) this is their rights and this is not means they came suddenly from sky!!!Fine, do it.
If people of Californian decided to get independence to and to call themselves Californian nation … then they create new geopolitical constitution but without changing the demography.
People exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but the political position change, and thus we can hear new political names as indication of major geopolitical changes ….
What called Israeli nation is unique phenomenon:
- They were religious communities who have no common history or race since more than 2000 years.Our race is common as proved by genetic studies, and we all share the same intricate religion.
- They have no common land, because they are parts from different nations. For example, Iraqi Jews have history in Iraq; he has the same color and the same culture. French Jews had history in France and he has the color … We have a common piece of land that was once our nation, and now it is again, I think you know the name. Our history is also similar.
- These different communities are united to make new nation and to steal the homeland of other nation who live there for thousands of years without any moral or logical justification, just based on jungle laws.It is based on the fact that Jews could not live as part of other nations with no homeland without being constantly threatened. The purchasing of the land was entirely legal, too. The establishment of the State of Israel was in accordance with the UN Partition plan. The ones who were living the law of the jungle were the local Arabs who attacked peaceful settlements.
we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.Show me any proof?Here it is: UN Partition Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan), note that it has a Palestinian nation alongside a Jewish one, and that Jerusalem is administered by the UN. From the article:Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. The more extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi (group), (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However Jews did criticise the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.
The Arab leadership opposed the plan, arguing that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).
Do you mean that there are no innocent Palestinian?Certainly not. When did I even hint at that?
do you cry only for Israeli victims who lost their lives because they decide to live on stolen land in WB and Gaza and you ignore all those Palestinian victims?Wow, a death penalty for living somewhere. That's a good sense of justice there. Honestly, I feel for the children victims of the settlers because they are too young to understand the consequences of living where they live. I don't think it's OK to kill a settler of any age though, regardless of who owns the land. And no, I do not ignore Palestinian victims, though I admit I cry less for them.
Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews, while all Zionist victims from 1897 till 2004 around 21000. Among them, 18000 were killed in five wars with Arab countries...
Sharon murdered in Lebanon 1982 more than all its victims in one century of Zionism.If you're making wild accusations like that you're going to have to support them with some solid proof. Of course you can't, because they are lies. The famous murders that did go on in Lebanon, known as the Sabra and Shatila Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre), were carried out by Christian Arabs, though Sharon could have stopped them. However, there is a strong sense of double standards here, as the commander of the Christian militias that performed the slaughter was never even put in front of a commitee and even served as a Lebanese Parliament Member, while Palestinians refer to Sharon as if he was the actual perpetrator of the massacres.
That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?Why ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate? What the reason behind that?I don't understand that question, and what it has to do with my quote.
What about millions of Palestinian refugees?Let them found a Palestinian state.
Why Muslims and Christian can not immigrate also?Again, I don't uderstand.
Of course (right wing of Zionism- including the current Israeli government) is evil.the current governemnt is definitely not evil, as it is displacing Israeli settlers forcefully from their homes for the sake of peace. How about mainstream Zionism, is it evil?
It is also crime against Jews people, who deserve to live in peace after the Holocaust..Nice of you to bring that up, like I said no Israeli thinks Palestinians should have to pay for the crimes of the Holocaust.
they declared this injustice war in the name of Jews people who suffer a lot from racism and hate through centuries.No war was ever declared. You're going to have to back that claim up with some good solid evidence.
Palestinian and Jews do not deserve all this blood because of crazy ideas of Zionism.Zionism is not a crazy idea. It is a peaceful solution to centuries of antisemitism and persecution of Jews.
Our race is common as proved by genetic studies, and we all share the same intricate religion.
excusme i don't undesrstand; you mean palestinians and izeraelis are same people they just share different relligion, right ? because that is what i been reading about for the last few years.
SpaceTiger
May5-05, 12:17 PM
I'm not going to read through all of this, but I would just like to say, in response to the original topic, that I admire Rachel's courage. If someone died trying to talk down a suicide bomber, I would admire their courage as well. I don't know what really happened, so I'm not going to blame the driver or anyone else. Rather, I think we should view this as further impetus to make/maintain peace in the region. It has been host to far too many tragedies in recent years.
it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders.What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.Do you mean ‘’rule of nature’’ is excuse also for NAZI to murdered millions of innocent people 2WW? Why you cry for Jews victims in 2WW, if Hitler murdered them based ‘’on rule of nature’’?
It is great at end to admit that Zionism ideology and creation of Israel based on ‘’rule of nature’’.Obviously, you didn't read my post very well. Read it again. I'll explain it to you since you got it wrong the first time: you said it was "rule of nature" for the Palestinians to "protect their homeland from foreign invaders". I responded saying that "rule of nature" is only an excuse for inhumane behaviour: the Palestinians' use of violence against civilians in this case. Thus I added it is time the Palestinians rose above their "nature", ie stopped using violence. Israel and Zionism are based on the rules of man, which is apparently why you see it as such an easy target. You apparently think Israel is weak because it is democratic and that you can use violence to pressure the Israeli public into more concessions in the peace process. Unfortunately, your violence only achieves the opposite.
You found peaceful nation in Palestine. They work hard in their farms to educate their kids and get respectful life. Christian, Jews, Muslims, atheists.. live together in peace for centuries .. They welcomed all ‘’poor refugees’’ from different religions and communities in their peaceful homeland.
Suddenly, an Austrian Jews meet each other and decided to apply ‘’rule of nature’’ on this peaceful and weak nation (they also proposed the Uganda and Argentine (colored people) …. So they collaborate with imperialists, who believe in rule of nature and they invaded this peaceful nation and destroyed it!!Listen to yourself, you're your own satire.
After all, in the name of ‘’rule of nature ‘’ Zionists ask the Palestinian to surrender completely and to accept the facts on ground!!Why do we negotiate then? Why are we pulling out of the Gaza Strip? Why are there so many Israeli peace activists (and virtually no Palestinian ones, when it comes to opposing their own side).
R.Corrie tried to prevent jewish terrorist in a bulldozer from destroying house of Palestinian family.
excusme i don't undesrstand; you mean palestinians and izeraelis are same people they just share different relligion, right ? because that is what i been reading about for the last few years.
In this instance I meant Jews, but you are also correct: genetic research proved Palestinians also have a very close genetic link to Jews.
I ask why you defend violence and this is your answer? I can clearly see now you are not interested in peace one bit.
I guess this must be a really good joke then: Palestinian Terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism) .
There are difference between ‘’State terrorism’’ and ‘’individual terrorism. While I am completely against what some Palestinian doing, I see most of Israeli supporting a ‘’terrorist government’’.
I'm sorry, I guess we should have stayed in all those other nations who were treating us so well. Who likes treating other nations as slaves now? Who likes superiority over others now? There are so many Arab states, but Jews shouldn't even be allowed to have one on a piece of land that was mostly uninhabitted before they cultivated it? Are we meant to forever live among other nations without ever knowing true independence, true equality, true safety?
Palestine was full in people, so you can not claim it was empty land! I told before, I have no problem with Jews and I understand their suffering for ages, but this not means to solve their problem by creating another tragedy for another nation. The problem is that there is now Jews State, and they did not satisfy.
Yes, I can see how blowing up groups of kids outside nightclubs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4299609.stm) protects someone's life.
Just examples of State terrorism in recent years:
Qana massacre 1996
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles18.htm
((Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong. ))
Is trhat terrorism or not? also you can check the UN report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre
((The UN investigated the incident in detail, concluding "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors".))
We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.
Here is the answer from Israeli peace bloc and antiwar movement :
http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h020802.html
I guess the Munich Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) and the Sabena hijacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe) were perpetrated by the easter bunny, and that the Ma'alot Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre) was santa clause's doing
The attacks you mentioned are attacks by Lebanon-based Palestinian organization not by the people of WB and Gaza …
The discussion about people of WB and Gaza …. We live in peace under Israeli occupation from 1967 till 1987, then we started peaceful resistance till 1993, then after Hebron massacre (1994) , the suicide bomber started. This historical sequence is proving that security has nothing to do with occupation. Israel builds settlements and continues the occupation because they need the land and they do not want the people who live on that land.
So why is this acceptable:Is it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?
I did not say that, I mean they should build the wall on the border. For settlements they can replace those ‘’extremist Jews” by “peaceful Jews” who suppose to be good citizens in democratic Palestine the same as Muslims and Christian.
You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.
I never claimed that. BTW it is mostly a fence, it is a wall only where there can be direct shooting at Israeli civilians from the Palestinian side.
I mean innocent people are innocent whether they Palestinian or Jews …..
Again you spread misleading information about the wall!! There are no direct shooting from Palestinian side to Israel, because there are no rockets in WB, all what Palestinian have is simple guns and explosive materials, which can not reach the Israeli side directly.
If the wall provide security to Israel, then they can build it on the border and withdraw as Syria did in Lebanon … let the UN forces to separate both nations..
Your use of the word Nazi is so peaceful. I thought a moment ago you called for building of the wall on the borders - do you think it will look any different on the borders? I bet you wouldn't be using those pictures to manipulate people's feelings if that wall was around a Jewish city like you want.
You see, unlike yourself, I am against all walls, wherever they may be. I also understand that fence has saved many Israeli lives, as much as I dislike it. I hope it will be torn down as soon as possible, but as long as Palestinians legitimate the practice of violence against Israeli civilians and do nothing to stop it, our government's duty is to protect them as best it can, as is the duty of every democratic government in this world.
Could you check on the map how the wall surrounds the city of Qalqilya?! Do you agree to force 50000 people to live inside wall with two gates?! Is that city or concentration camp?
I already proved that is a lie.
You did not prove, because I live in WB and I know when suicide bombers attacks … just after Hebron massacre in 1994. The attacks you mentioned was originated from PLO in Lebanon, and Israel reply by Sabra and Chatila massacre and by complete invasion in 1978 and in 1982. WB and Gaza were calm areas in that time..
There was no such massacre.
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/255.shtml
What massacre? I ran a google search and couldn't find any massacre in the Hebron University.
Several settlers (belong to the secret Jews terrorist organization) attacked Hebron University. In the same year the same group tried to explode the Dome of Rock in Jerusalem.
Same as above, what massacre?
It is not documented also on the internet. In 1988, the Israeli soldiers attacked the town of Nahlin near Bethlehem and murdered several people in cold blood.
Couldn't find anything on it. Do these "massacres" even exist?
Support that comment.
Rishon Litzion (south of Tel Aviv)-An Israeli called (Ami Bober) was angry from his girl friend, so he wore his military clothes and asked many Palestinian workers to stand in the work site to check their ID, then he started to shoot them by using (Uzi gun). He murdered and wounded many of them. He is prisoner now, but he got married and he is allowed to spend several days/monthly with his wife in hotel. (Five star jail!)
No one said they were the source of the problem, but they are murdering innocent civilians, and you are supporting them, right here, right now. You can pray for peace as much as you want, if you don't stop the violence it will never come. I understand you're too busy coming up with excuses why you are killing innocent civilians to stop the violence though.
I said that I do not support murdering civilians, whatever their religion or race, also I do not support wars and I wish to see peaceful solution. The problem that you start to write by very biased views, so I have to balance your extreme views by showing the other side of story …..
I said before, I do not agree to ask the Jews to leave, but we should stop all this violent, hate and racism.So why don't you ask your PA to disarm Hamas, for example?
Simply, you should see the Zionism and Israel in the real world, it is not logical to blame the Palestinian who is victims for everything.I did not blame them for everything, but they take responsibilty for nothing!
I do not care about the religion or color of my neighbor …But you seems to care a lot for the religion and color of your ruler, in fact, you care so much you are willing to accept the deaths of innocent civilians to rid yourself of one ruler, when you gladly accepted another.
and I am not appointed by god to judge people , everyone free in his life. All what I need , that my neighbor should not come one day to kick me from my house and to kill my kids because he believe in religious myth.Well that's good, since it never happened.
You also know that 90% of settlers of WB are extreme religious and they give very bad image about Jews.Much less than 90%, but then again even 1 is 1 too many.
We rarely met peaceful Jews, but everyday we meet those bloody and religious settlers who want to kill us for fun.. and the Israeli soldiers feel happy to mistreat the Palestinian civilians everyday on checkpoints.That is a problem and I, along with other Israelis, am working to solve that in a peaceful manner.
I meet many peaceful Palestinians, but I also know a lot of mothers who won't let their children board buses in Israel.
Please do not blame the Palestinian for having bad image about Israel, replace those settlers by peaceful Jews we will live in peace with them.I do not want to replace them, I want to put them in jail and return the land to its previous owner. It is very hard to convince people to support that when they feel it is part of a war that is forced on them.
I know Jews history and I highly respect them (please read my previous posts about contribution of Jews in ME civilisation).Your posts only refered to Jews as citizens of Arab countries. I am well aware of the preferential treatment and respect to the "People of the Book" in Islamic culture, but you must realise that there are so many Arab States, and only one Jewish State - and most Arabs won't even acknowledge its right to exist.
I am very angry from Zionism because of its crimes against Jews and Palestinian.I think you have been mislead as to what Zionism is.
We should not have all this hate and violence …Absolutely.
we have many common things and we should build better future instead to live as Masters and slaves, because one side got support from USA!Since the Madrid conference, it has been the official position of Israel that there should be a Palestinian State. That is not being argued. What is being argued are the borders of the two states and the immigration of Palestinians into Israel, and the control of terror by the PA.
Israel has withstood its first 3 wars without US support, and as surprising as it sounds to a lot of people, it can survive without the US support. You must remember the US is a powerful leverage when it comes to the peace process, as it often forces Sharon to give more concessions than he would like.
So what, You can read also for these Jews who ask for reformation of zionism and see it as the source of the troubles for Jews and Arab
http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm
Naturei Karta? You don't think that qualifies as an extremist site?
Yet you said Jews simply appeared all over the globe and chose to steal the land of the Palestinians.
But you chose to remain a part of Arab Syria or South Syria as you called it. Your only problem is being ruled by non-Arabs.
Fine, do it. .
Till now most of Arab call Syrian, Palestinian, Lebanese and Jordanian as ''Shami people". Ash sham = Great Syria. We were one nation for centurues , but we divided after first world war. It is not the fist cacident in history.
You created now Jews State … it is ok, so what the rest? You want to continue occupation, building settlements expanding your borders … or you want to live and to leave the other to live in peace?
We have a common piece of land that was once our nation, and now it is again, I think you know the name. Our history is also similar.
It is based on the fact that Jews could not live as part of other nations with no homeland without being constantly threatened. The purchasing of the land was entirely legal, too. The establishment of the State of Israel was in accordance with the UN Partition plan. The ones who were living the law of the jungle were the local Arabs who attacked peaceful settlements.
Some Jews lived in part of Palestine 2000 -3000 years ago. There are many nations before and after them … so there is nothing especial. Otherwise Greek should ask to take Turkey , Arab lived 800 years in Spain, American should be kicked out, Anglo Saxon should leave Wales, Ireland and Scotland … it is the same story of every nation on the earth.
Wow, a death penalty for living somewhere. That's a good sense of justice there. Honestly, I feel for the children victims of the settlers because they are too young to understand the consequences of living where they live. I don't think it's OK to kill a settler of any age though, regardless of who owns the land. And no, I do not ignore Palestinian victims, though I admit I cry less for them.
I never say it is ok to kill the settlers kids , but also it is mistake of them and Israeli government to build these settlements.
If you're making wild accusations like that you're going to have to support them with some solid proof. Of course you can't, because they are lies. The famous murders that did go on in Lebanon, known as the Sabra and Shatila Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre), were carried out by Christian Arabs, though Sharon could have stopped them. However, there is a strong sense of double standards here, as the commander of the Christian militias that performed the slaughter was never even put in front of a commitee and even served as a Lebanese Parliament Member, while Palestinians refer to Sharon as if he was the actual perpetrator of the massacres.
This what Israeli committee said, but Sharon and Rafael Etan work actively to facilitate this massacre by using Lebanese collaborators.
the current governemnt is definitely not evil, as it is displacing Israeli settlers forcefully from their homes for the sake of peace. How about mainstream Zionism, is it evil?
-there are around 300000 settlers, Israel want to withdraw only from 5000 to 10000 settlers. Therefore you can not claim that significant number of settlers will be transferred.
- Sharon admitted that the reason he decided to do that is Geneva agreement between Palestinian and Israeli peace supporters. He wants to bury their agreement by these steps.
- Gaza represents only 6% of occupied land.
- Withdraw from Gaza, is paralleled with building more settlements in WB (94% of occupied land)
So it is not because Sharon man of peace!
MEMRI and many Zionist sites (especially after 11/9) became new version of Zion protocols. They doing with Arab what anti Semite Russian and German did with them.Why don't you take a piece on MEMRITV and prove it is fradulent? Should be quite easy since all they do is translate Arabic into English. They don't make anything up, all they do is translate it and publish reports. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) are all made up. Can you see the difference between the two?
They show Arab as pure evil and root of troubles in all human history.That's not the impression I got of Arabs on MEMRI, quite the contrary - I saw signs of reform and advancement that I didn't know existed. MEMRI has made me appreciate the effects of commercial media on Arab societies in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I knew of the ways Arab media incites against Israel long before I learned of MEMRI.
They focus on speech or text from here and there to show the Arab in evil image …The sources still exist - they don't make anything up. Most of the negative material is so extreme you don't expect it to be aired at all. I would rather make up my own mind rather than take the word of someone who thinks Zionism and Judaism are based on the concept of superiority over others. Besides, MEMRI also shows positive things. Do you expect them to show commercials and soap operas?
Whatever you may say, I still receive Palestinian TV channels at home, and I know what they show when they want to incite the people. It makes me sick just to think about it.
In 30s, Hitler used this strategy against the German Jews. His propaganda machine used to focus on quotes of some Jews who live in USA and UK to tell the German that Jews want to annihilate the German race, so our war with them is to be or not to be!!Do you have an obsession with Nazism? Stop comparing people and places to Hitler and Nazi Germany, you know there's a world of difference between them. You were talking earlier about showing sensitivity, and yet you constantly raise the most painful chapter of Jewish history. I hope you're not trying to inflame me.
R.Corrie tried to prevent jewish terrorist in a bulldozer from destroying house of Palestinian family.Why are you calling the driver a terrorist?
Why are you calling the driver a terrorist?
not long ago I presented you definition of terrorism, what do you think this driver did ? not only he terrorized palestinians and was demolishing their property on top of this he killed human being !
There are difference between ‘’State terrorism’’ and ‘’individual terrorism. While I am completely against what some Palestinian doing, I see most of Israeli supporting a ‘’terrorist government’’.The question remains, what have you done to stop those Palestinians who you disagree with? Look at all the activism in Israel. I go to so many protests to show my resentment at my side's wrongdoings, as well as a lot of other Israelis. How come that on the Palestinian side - the only side using suicide bombers - there was not even one small demonstration against the killing of innocent civilians?
Palestine was full in people, so you can not claim it was empty land!I never said it was empty, but it certainly had a fraction of the population it had after the war of independence, and definitely a smaller fraction of its population today - which obviously means there was a lot of room back then. You even agreed that the Jewish immigration made much of the previously uninhabitable land habitable, thus increasing the land available for the population. Also, the population of the Negev desert was a tiny fraction of what it became thanks to the cultivation of it by the Jewish immigrants, and the Bedouin Arabs have flourished thanks to that.
I told before, I have no problem with Jews and I understand their suffering for ages, but this not means to solve their problem by creating another tragedy for another nation.And I told you before, the tragedy is not entirely Israel's fault. Palestinians share a lot of the responsibility. All that doesn't matter anyway, since we need to focus on the solution, not the cause.
The problem is that there is now Jews State, and they did not satisfy.I'm very satisfied, and I'll still be satisfied after we pull out of Gaza and then hopefully out of the West Bank. But that won't happen until you control your terrorists.
Just examples of State terrorism in recent years:
Qana massacre 1996
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles18.htm
((Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong. ))
Is trhat terrorism or not? also you can check the UN report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre
((The UN investigated the incident in detail, concluding "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors".))So why would Israel just kill so many innocent civilians? And in a UN camp? Don't you think it would have been easier to have done that in a village? Furthermore, the UN report stated: (a) Between 1200 and 1400 hours on 18 April, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three rockets from a location 350 metres south-east of the United Nations compound. The location was identified on the ground.
(b) Between 1230 and 1300 hours, they fired four or five rockets from a location 600 metres south-east of the compound. The location was identified on the ground.
(c) About 15 minutes before the shelling, they fired between five and eight rounds of 120 millimetre mortar from a location 220 metres south-west of the centre of the compound. The location was identified on the ground. According to witnesses, the mortar was installed there between 1100 and 1200 hours that day, but no action was taken by UNIFIL personnel to remove it. (On 15 April, a Fijian had been shot in the chest as he tried to prevent Hezbollah fighters from firing rockets.)
(d) The United Nations compound at Qana had taken in a large number of Lebanese seeking shelter from Israeli bombardments. By Sunday, 14 April, 745 persons were in the compound. On 18 April, the day of the shelling, their number is estimated to have been well over 800. When the Fijian soldiers heard the mortar being fired not far from their compound, they began immediately to move as many of the civilians as possible into shelters so that they would be protected from any Israeli retaliation.
(e) At some point (it is not completely clear whether before or after the shelling), two or three Hezbollah fighters entered the United Nations compound, where their families were.So you see, these "freedom fighters" purposefuly fired from nearby that UN installations with the aim of having an Israeli retaliation hit that compound. When a UN soldier tried to stop them, they shot him in the chest - hell, they even walked right in to the UN base on that day (show of how pathetic the UN is when dealing with terrorists). These terrorists purposefuly risked the lives of their compatriots, hoping for an Israeli retaliation.
We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.Here is the answer from Israeli peace bloc and antiwar movement :
http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h020802.htmlThe first site refers to the December 2000, I am referring to the January 2001 Proposal (http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm). The second site is obviously way too extreme, the only parties he seems to accept are the Communist ones. Anyway, his views are obviously shared by an extremely small minority of Israelis. I know a few Israeli Arabs who would think this guy's crazy.
The attacks you mentioned are attacks by Lebanon-based Palestinian organization not by the people of WB and Gaza …Oh please...On this date, the 26th anniversary of Israeli independence, three Arabs subsequently identified as members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), a faction affiliated with the PLO, broke into the high school in Ma'alot, a community in northern Israel, where a group of 100 14-16 year olds were sleeping on the floor after a day spent hiking.Black September Organisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_%28group%29):The Black September Organization (BSO) was a Palestinian paramilitary unit founded in 1970. It is believed to have drawn its members chiefly from Fatah, the PLO faction controlled by Yasser Arafat. In 1973, the U.S. State Department distributed documents regarding the links between the PLO and the BSO (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/plobso.html).Avoiding responsibilty is so easy for terrorists.
The discussion about people of WB and Gaza …. We live in peace under Israeli occupation from 1967 till 1987, then we started peaceful resistance till 1993, then after Hebron massacre (1994) , the suicide bomber started.Oddly enough it was also after the Oslo Accords. While the Hebron massacre was an isolated incident, the bombings never stopped. It seems that as the negotiations became more intense, so did the attacks (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Palestinian%20terror%20before%202000/Fatal%20Terrorist%20Attacks%20in%20Israel%20Since% 20the%20DOP%20-S). It was proved that the bombings were not only supported by the PA, it was proved the PA was actively funding acts of terrorism. One can only assume Arafat meant to use this as leverage against Israel. So if your claim is to be believed, it shows Palestinians lived peacefuly under the Israeli occupation, but became violent during the negotiations - very odd.
This historical sequence is proving that security has nothing to do with occupation.It does, as I believe the occupation reduces Israel's security, even though you apparently proved the opposite above.
Israel builds settlements and continues the occupation because they need the land and they do not want the people who live on that land.Israel is a democratic state and the settlers have a strong lobby. There's also something about the way the Palestinians are behaving that makes Israelis antagonistic towards them - maybe it has something to do with the fact they're killing their innocent civilian friends and families. You must remember - Israelis vote with their hearts, not their brains - you should try to win our hearts.
So why is this acceptable:Is it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?I did not say that, I mean they should build the wall on the border.Yes you did:If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews citiesIf you want the wall to be built on the border, that means Israel has to move all its settlers. While I am for that, it remains a problem to convince Israelis to support such a move when they are constantly attacked. Furthermore, it would signal a victory to violence - if we pull the settlements as a result of violence, that would strengthen the terrorist organisations - it would appear to the Palestinian public as if the only way to gain something would be to support the violent struggle. If the PA worked to control these organisations, it would make it a lot easier for people like myself to convince Israelis to support that sort of move.
For settlements they can replace those ‘’extremist Jews” by “peaceful Jews” who suppose to be good citizens in democratic Palestine the same as Muslims and Christian.I'd rather they pull the settlements out completely, I don't believe anyone "peaceful" will agree to live there.
Our freedom and dignity is the most important.You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.I mean innocent people are innocent whether they Palestinian or Jews …..So why do you say your freedom and dignity is the most important?
Again you spread misleading information about the wall!! There are no direct shooting from Palestinian side to Israel, because there are no rockets in WB, all what Palestinian have is simple guns and explosive materials, which can not reach the Israeli side directly.And they used those simple guns to fire onto a major highway adjacent to the west bank barrier and injure a child a few months ago. Some Israeli settlements and roads are well within firing distance of the barrier, which is why it was made of concrete in those areas.
If the wall provide security to Israel, then they can build it on the border and withdraw as Syria did in Lebanon … let the UN forces to separate both nations..We saw how good those UN forces guarded the border which is why we don't want them here. They do more harm than good. I would like to have no barrier at all, but it's a necessity right now. I wish it would be built to interfere less with Palesitinian lives, but that would mean moving settlements and roads - and that would mean a victory to terror, which is why this barrier was constructed in the first place. If we reward terrorists with concessions, that would be like asking for more terror. It would all be unnecessary, though, if the PA would handle the terrorists themselves.
Could you check on the map how the wall surrounds the city of Qalqilya?! Do you agree to force 50000 people to live inside wall with two gates?! Is that city or concentration camp?As I've said before, I wish there'd be no wall. The barrier, however, proved itself as since its erection there's been less attacks inside Israel. I hope we get to negotiating again and that the wall will be removed as quickly as possible.
I already proved that is a lie.You did not prove, because I live in WB and I know when suicide bombers attacks … just after Hebron massacre in 1994. The attacks you mentioned was originated from PLO in Lebanon, and Israel reply by Sabra and Chatila massacre and by complete invasion in 1978 and in 1982. WB and Gaza were calm areas in that time..Then we agree to disagree. I won't argue that point since it's meaningless to my basic argument - the worst attacks were during the negotiations, regardless of the Hebron massacre.
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/255.shtmlThanks for referring to a site called "Electronic Intifada". I am aware of those events but I would not name them a massacre, as they occured in seperate demonstrations. That day is a sad historical chapter in the history of Israel and is tought as part of the curriculum at highschool, but I do not agree it can be termed a massacre.
Several settlers (belong to the secret Jews terrorist organization) attacked Hebron University. In the same year the same group tried to explode the Dome of Rock in Jerusalem.No link? Not even to electronicintifada.net?
It is not documented also on the internet. In 1988, the Israeli soldiers attacked the town of Nahlin near Bethlehem and murdered several people in cold blood.Rather odd it's not mentioned anywhere, seeing as the Palestinians usually have a very efficient coverage on all these incidents. I guess we'll have to take your word for it.
Rishon Litzion (south of Tel Aviv)-An Israeli called (Ami Bober) was angry from his girl friend, so he wore his military clothes and asked many Palestinian workers to stand in the work site to check their ID, then he started to shoot them by using (Uzi gun). He murdered and wounded many of them. He is prisoner now, but he got married and he is allowed to spend several days/monthly with his wife in hotel. (Five star jail!)I think I vaguely remember when that happened. You have to understand prisoners have rights in Israel, even Palestinian ones (unless they're members of a paramilitary organisation). That guy would have that right even if he murdered Israelis. BTW, due to a decision of the government's legal aid most of the military prisons are being turned over to the civilian prisons service, which means they'll get more funding and basically better conditions than what they get now.
I said that I do not support murdering civilians, whatever their religion or race, also I do not support wars and I wish to see peaceful solution. The problem that you start to write by very biased views, so I have to balance your extreme views by showing the other side of story ….. Well, I understand we don't see eye-to-eye on most things, but no matter what is being argued, I cannot understand murder - regardless who the victims are. Surely you understand that is a problem with your side, just as I understand my side's problem is the building in the settlements.
not long ago I presented you definition of terrorism, what do you think this driver did ? not only he terrorized palestinians and was demolishing their property on top of this he killed human being !I do not recall a definition of terrorism presented to me, perhaps you confuse me with someone else.
You ask me what I think the driver did. To be honest - I do not know the exact details of that operation. I can tell you those kind of operations are usually carried out in Rafah near the border with Egypt, in order to prevent the constant weapons smuggling going on there. It's a terrible reality but the army has no other way of dealing with this smuggling, and the locals pay the price. They try to stop the terrorists from using their homes to dig tunnels across to Egypt, but they can't - the terrorists are stronger and have guns. So the army comes every once in a while, discovers a tunnel and demolishes it, or the entire house. Sometimes they do it because a rocket hits an APC and kills some soldiers, so they have to demolish the area where it was launched to prevent it from happening again. I reckon it's terrible, but I know what those smuggled weapons will be used for.
Do you know why he was there? Do you know what he can and can't see? Have you ever been shot at? Those bulldozers are big and slow, you sit up there hearing shots ricochet off the metal and thick glass windows (only a few cm wide each), sometimes you even get an anti-armor rocket or an underground charge to explode on you, and you reckon you can drive that thing safely? You judge him as if you know all the facts about this terrible incident. Hopefully you made good effort to see matters from his point of view before accusing him.
No doubt that Rachel's death was completely unnecessary. But violence begets violence, and the only way to end these unncessary deaths is to end the circle of violence, not inflame it with wild accusations and calls for more violence.
Okay Yonoz, i wont argue much about tunnels and house demolishions, but tell me one thing : you remember when Yaser Arafat was almost keept prisoner in Palestinian Authority complex few years ago ? what did bulldozers did to those buildings on whos order, why they did it ?? Those buildings had no strategic value whatsoever, nobody was shooting from them at jewish soldiers. It was simply white on black state sponsored terrorism, barbarism is the word !
Okay Yonoz, i wont argue much about tunnels and house demolishions, but tell me one thing : you remember when Yaser Arafat was almost keept prisoner in Palestinian Authority complex few years ago ? what did bulldozers did to those buildings on whos order, why they did it ?? Those buildings had no strategic value whatsoever, nobody was shooting from them at jewish soldiers. It was simply white on black state sponsored terrorism, barbarism is the word !
I suggest you read this first:
Yasser Arafat - Political Survival and Marginalisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Political_survival_and_marginalizati on)
Yasser Arafat deceived Israel in the Oslo accords and the following agreements. While presenting himself to the west as a "dove", he actually funded terrorism using PA funds (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3243071.stm) and repeatedly incited his people in speeches made in Arabic. It was therefor decided that he could not be negotiated with, and Israel decided to wait for the next political leader to emerge - and there are quite a few of those. Apart from the radical Hamas movement, there is a moderate Palestinian leadership such as Saeb Erekat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeb_Erekat), Mohammed Dahlan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2068270.stm) and Jibril Rajoub (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1881756.stm), who Israel could feel safe to negotiate with, as soon as Arafat would be out of the game. The only other problem was that Arafat in the meantime was still inflaming the situation whenever he could. The least harmful way to reduce terrorism while allowing the alternative leadership some control (and a chance at gaining strength in face of the growing strength of the radicals in the PA) was to cut Arafat off as much as possible. You can see the result with your own eyes - as soon as Arafat was out of the game peace was once again a possibility. Arafat was harming the whole region with his support of terrorism, and that action was in everyone's favour (well, everyone but the radicals).
why did not you guys just killed Arafat instead of humiliating the old man in front of millions of people around the world ?? just like you guys have killed that blind,wheelchair bound paralyzed Sheik Yassin ??
russ_watters
May6-05, 11:30 AM
why did not you guys just killed Arafat instead of humiliating the old man in front of millions of people around the world ?? Isn't it obvious? Humiliating the terrorist marginalizes him. Killing him martyrs him. You don't want to make a martyr out of a terrorist because that encourages other terrorists. what did bulldozers did to those buildings on whos order, why they did it ?? Those buildings had no strategic value whatsoever, nobody was shooting from them at jewish soldiers. It was simply white on black state sponsored terrorism, barbarism is the word ! You keep using that word. I don't think you have the slightest clue what it means. I know you posted the definition before, but the way you've used it throughout the thread implies you are just utterly ignoring the definition.
Arafat was a leader. Terrorism, by definition, is not an act comitted directly against a leader, it is against a group of people (civilians) or their property. Furthermore, the Israelis weren't trying to scare him, they were trying to keep him on a leash - to disrupt his terrorist activities without killing him. Yes, I think they would have been perfectly justified in killing him, but politically it wasn't worth the backlash.
You obviously have problem with Israel being called terror sponsoring state, and I think you are little bit confused here.
Sheik Yassim was killed not by mistake, he was not fighting IDF, he was on the door steps of a mosque. Israeli air force killed him and wounded countless more, and thus made him a martyr/hero. would it be so hard to arrest him ?
I my dictionary killing him was an act of terrorism.
I also see that you finally agree with me that destroying houses, orchards (property) is an act of terror.
Arafat was elected by 75% of Palestinian under supervision of EU. So he is elected leader and he represent nation, whether you accept or not.
Please answer this question:
Your definition of Terrorism is applied on Sharon or not or Arab victims are not count??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon
- Qybia massacre in 1956: bombing 60 civilians’ houses while people sleeping at mid night.
- 1956: slaughtering hundreds of Jordanian police in Qalqilya in cold blood.
- 1967 war, he responsible about murdering thousands of Egyptian prisoners who disappear till now.
- 1982: He invaded Lebanon and murdered 20000 civilians (more than all Isareli victims in one century)
Sheik Yassin was prisoner for 10 years in Israeli jails. Israel exchanged him with four Mossad terrorist who tried to assassinate one of HAMAS leaders in Jordan, 1997, by using chemical weapons. They promised King Hussein to release Sheik Yassin and not to harm him anymore if Jordan accepts to release the Mossad terrorists who used fake Canadian passports … as usual, they did not respect their promise and they targeted this wheelchair old man who had many diseases.
Isn't it obvious? Humiliating the terrorist marginalizes him. Killing him martyrs him. You don't want to make a martyr out of a terrorist because that encourages other terrorists. You keep using that word. I don't think you have the slightest clue what it means. I know you posted the definition before, but the way you've used it throughout the thread implies you are just utterly ignoring the definition.
Arafat was a leader. Terrorism, by definition, is not an act comitted directly against a leader, it is against a group of people (civilians) or their property. Furthermore, the Israelis weren't trying to scare him, they were trying to keep him on a leash - to disrupt his terrorist activities without killing him. Yes, I think they would have been perfectly justified in killing him, but politically it wasn't worth the backlash.
Informal Logic
May6-05, 01:43 PM
I'm not going to read through all of this, but I would just like to say, in response to the original topic, that I admire Rachel's courage. If someone died trying to talk down a suicide bomber, I would admire their courage as well. I don't know what really happened, so I'm not going to blame the driver or anyone else. Rather, I think we should view this as further impetus to make/maintain peace in the region. It has been host to far too many tragedies in recent years.Agreed about her courage and the need to make/maintain peace in the region. The posts in this thread are indicative of why it is so difficult to achieve this.
It is clear which members are Jewish and which are Arab and the bias associated with each. I do feel that Bilal has made extraordinary effort to not only substantiate his claims with quotes and links, but moreover has tried to provide sources that are as reliable and neutral as possible. I can't say the same for many of the other posts.
Ultimately, it is the US that has created this mess, and the US that has helped to perpetuate this mess. After 9-11 you would think the US would stop and think why it is that this attack took place. But instead, the US only initiated more of the same with invasion of Iraq. In the meantime these debates will rage on. :zzz:
Dear Informal Logic,
Thanks for your comments. I highly appreciate your balanced views.
In fact I tried to be neutral as much as possible, so I did my best to use only international and accepted sources . Unfortunately, the discussion shifted to propaganda war, and the discussion is flooded by posts and links which based on biased sources of other side. If I want to reply in the same tactic by using pro Palestine propaganda sources then this discussion will convert to battlefield.(I just used Palestinian sources to show well known information as Day Land).
My English is not perfect and I waste a lot of time to find trusted article, while the others find it easy to copy from MEMRI and other propaganda sources…. Additionally, I have to worry if I continue this discussion in this way, because the other side claim that I support murdering of Israeli which is considered as crime according to Israeli laws.
Agreed about her courage and the need to make/maintain peace in the region. The posts in this thread are indicative of why it is so difficult to achieve this.
It is clear which members are Jewish and which are Arab and the bias associated with each. I do feel that Bilal has made extraordinary effort to not only substantiate his claims with quotes and links, but moreover has tried to provide sources that are as reliable and neutral as possible. I can't say the same for many of the other posts.
Ultimately, it is the US that has created this mess, and the US that has helped to perpetuate this mess. After 9-11 you would think the US would stop and think why it is that this attack took place. But instead, the US only initiated more of the same with invasion of Iraq. In the meantime these debates will rage on. :zzz:
Informal Logic
May6-05, 02:43 PM
Dear Informal Logic,
Thanks for your comments. I highly appreciate your balanced views.
In fact I tried to be neutral as much as possible, so I did my best to use only international and accepted sources . Unfortunately, the discussion shifted to propaganda war, and the discussion is flooded by posts and links which based on biased sources of other side. If I want to reply in the same tactic by using pro Palestine propaganda sources then this discussion will convert to battlefield.(I just used Palestinian sources to show well known information as Day Land).
My English is not perfect and I waste a lot of time to find trusted article, while the others find it easy to copy from MEMRI and other propaganda sources…. Additionally, I have to worry if I continue this discussion in this way, because the other side claim that I support murdering of Israeli which is considered as crime according to Israeli laws.You are welcome, and I apologize for not participating in this thread more, but I do not have as much tolerance as you do for the lack of 'objectivity' often by the same members who claim this is needed. I am American of northern European decent, including some Jewish ancestry, but raised Christian. With that said, IMO Zionist treatment of Palestinians is not unlike the horrible treatment their own people have suffered, yet want continued sympathy and support from the world for their actions. If they want to say I'm anti-semitic, that would just be par for the course.
Arafat was elected by 75% of Palestinian under supervision of EU. So he is elected leader and he represent nation, whether you accept or not.
Please answer this question:
Your definition of Terrorism is applied on Sharon or not or Arab victims are not count??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon
- Qybia massacre in 1956: bombing 60 civilians’ houses while people sleeping at mid night.
- 1956: slaughtering hundreds of Jordanian police in Qalqilya in cold blood.
- 1967 war, he responsible about murdering thousands of Egyptian prisoners who disappear till now.
- 1982: He invaded Lebanon and murdered 20000 civilians (more than all Isareli victims in one century)
Sheik Yassin was prisoner for 10 years in Israeli jails. Israel exchanged him with four Mossad terrorist who tried to assassinate one of HAMAS leaders in Jordan, 1997, by using chemical weapons. They promised King Hussein to release Sheik Yassin and not to harm him anymore if Jordan accepts to release the Mossad terrorists who used fake Canadian passports … as usual, they did not respect their promise and they targeted this wheelchair old man who had many diseases.
Just two small points...
1. Maybe you misunderstand how democracy works and maybe you are willing to overlook how Arafat remained in office..but, please, your statement about him being an elected leader is a bit....misleading. Arafat was elected.....once....when his term ended...he was not elected again. At that point, he was no longer an elected official but a self appointed one.
2. Your link...does not contain the comments you've placed below it. I think that a lot of people don't bother to click through and read links when they believe that you've pasted the information held in the link onto your message. So, the way you've posted a link and then placed commentary that the link does not include might mislead some people into thinking what you've said is...factual and derived from Wikepedia...which on a percusory search..it isn't.
Of course..Wikepedia as a source has it's own issues as well, but we'll leave that for another time.
1982: He invaded Lebanon and murdered 20000 civilians (more than all Isareli victims in one century)Outright lie.
With that said, IMO Zionist treatment of Palestinians is not unlike the horrible treatment their own people have suffered, yet want continued sympathy and support from the world for their actions.No one here wants "sympathy" and "support", but there seems to be a lack of proportion when you compare the world reaction to other troubled areas - surely the treatment of Tibetans by China, the ongoing wars in Africa, the struggle of the Kurds against the regimes in Iraq, Syria and Turkey and single events such as the Hama massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre) deserve just as much, if not more, of the attention of international activists.
If they want to say I'm anti-semitic, that would just be par for the course.No one ever said you are, but you still choose to raise this subject (just like Bilal keeps raising Nazism). I do not understand why you raise the whole prejudice issue while the issue under debate is completely different. This correlates to your reference as to the objectivity of the sources I've refered to - IMO your concept of objectivity is quite subjective. You also choose to present yourself first by commenting on your descent and religion - is that how you view people - by race and faith? Do you think having Jewish ancestors grants you any special privilege? Is this your idea of keepig a debate "neutral"?
Informal Logic
May6-05, 04:50 PM
No one here wants "sympathy" and "support", but there seems to be a lack of proportion when you compare the world reaction to other troubled areas - surely the treatment of Tibetans by China, the ongoing wars in Africa, the struggle of the Kurds against the regimes in Iraq, Syria and Turkey and single events such as the Hama massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre)Agreed, and unfortunately because US foreign policy is not based as much on human rights as it should be, other troubled areas are not a focus.
I do not understand why you raise the whole prejudice issue while the issue under debate is completely different. This correlates to your reference as to the objectivity of the sources I've refered to - IMO your concept of objectivity is quite subjective. You also choose to present yourself first by commenting on your descent and religion - is that how you view people - by race and faith? Do you think having Jewish ancestors grants you any special privilege? Is this your idea of keepig a debate "neutral"?Of course not, and I bring it up because it is the unfortunate truth that people from Israel will be pro-Israel, and people from Lebanon will be pro-Palestinian. Also people from the US who are indoctrinated in the Judo-Christian beliefs and resulting propaganda likewise will have bias. This is very relevant, and to pretend it is not means you lack objectivity.
In fact I tried to be neutral as much as possible, so I did my best to use only international and accepted sources.Sources like electronicintifada.net?
Unfortunately, the discussion shifted to propaganda war, and the discussion is flooded by posts and links which based on biased sources of other side.Read the first few posts in this thread and see how this shifted into a propaganda war. You posted the first 2 comments about the death of Rachel Corrie, waited for the slightest hint of politization, and then started your constant stream of propaganda with a volley of three posts, including the longest one in the thread until that time. It is you who turned this into a "propaganda war".
If I want to reply in the same tactic by using pro Palestine propaganda sources then this discussion will convert to battlefield.(I just used Palestinian sources to show well known information as Day Land).By "battlefield" do you mean there's someone other than yourself who's well educated about the conflict?
My English is not perfect and I waste a lot of time to find trusted article, while the others find it easy to copy from MEMRI and other propaganda sources….I suggest you count my sources - the overwhelming majority will be from Wikipedia, followed by the BBC. Now, look at the content of the MEMRI items I linked to - most of them show Arabs in a positive light. Your claims against the objectivity of MEMRI were that it is run by a retired Israeli officer and an editorial by a British journalist.
Additionally, I have to worry if I continue this discussion in this way, because the other side claim that I support murdering of Israeli which is considered as crime according to Israeli laws.Are you implying I threatened you with prosecution?
Agreed, and unfortunately because US foreign policy is not based as much on human rights as it should be, other troubled areas are not a focus.I do not understand how this answers my question - is your focus on human rights based on US foreign policy?
Of course not, and I bring it up because it is the unfortunate truth that people from Israel will be pro-Israel,Not always. Plenty of radical left here. Benny Morris, who Bilal has quoted a few times, is an Israeli, as is Dr. Ilan Pepe who is behind the recent boycott of Israeli universities by the British Association of University Teachers. What is troubling me is the amount of Israelis willing to go to extraordinary lengths of understanding for the Palestinians, whereas the Palestinians seem ever united and firm in the same views - you'd expect at least a decent demonstration against the use of violence, and yet the Palestinian public accepts violence as a legitimate part of the struggle and Palestinian society has not a fraction of the public debate that is ongoing in Israel about the occupation with regards to Palestinian violence. The same goes for the US public, which has its share of pluralist thought - a concept that seems to evade the Palestinians.
You obviously have problem with Israel being called terror sponsoring state, and I think you are little bit confused here.I believe you are the one who's confused, yet I did not dare write it until now. Must you stoop to personal comments?
Sheik Yassim was killed not by mistake, he was not fighting IDF,He was the head of Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) (listed as a terrorist organisation by many states including the EU), and responsible for many Israeli deaths.
he was on the door steps of a mosque.He was on his way to morning prayer. This was the only time Israel could target him since he kept himself surrounded by civilians, knowing the Israeli military will not perform a strike knowing that it would cause an unacceptable loss of civilian life.
Israeli air force killed him and wounded countless more,Countless? Yassin, his two body guards and six other Palestinians were killed, and over a dozen were injured. The loss of Israeli life he was responsible for, and the loss of Israeli life he would have been responsible for had he not been stopped, would have been far greater.
and thus made him a martyr/hero.That was thought of, and apparently the loss of life prevented by his death was deemed worth that price by the leadership of that time.
would it be so hard to arrest him ?Yes, as the head of Hamas he was well guarded. He remained in the densely populated city of Gaza and was constantly surrounded by large numbers of civilians - attempting to arrest him would have increased the death toll to unacceptable numbers.
I my dictionary killing him was an act of terrorism.That's very nice, in my dictionary it was an attempt at self defence.
I also see that you finally agree with me that destroying houses, orchards (property) is an act of terror.Depends on the reasons for it. I agree it is something that should be avoided as much as possible, but surely you agree human life is worth more than any amount of houses and orchards.
and people from Lebanon will be pro-Palestinian.
You know, a lot of the stuff you post doesn't even pass the giggle test. A very large percentage of Lebanese are not PRO-Palestinian. In fact, the Palestinians in Lebanon are treated worse then those in Palestine and have less rights then Arabs in the Palestine AND Israel. In fact, a very large percentage of Lebanese are of the Christian Faith and VERY anti-Muslim and hold very strong feelings against the PLO in part due to their massacre of the Christian people.
klusener
May6-05, 08:21 PM
Outright lie.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm:
Lebanon (1975-90):
1982-87 Israeli vs PLO: 40,000 civ. + 12,000 mil. = 62,000
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Gillespie0724.htm
http://www.ahram.org.eg/acpss/eng/ahram/2004/7/5/STUD6.HTM - If you believe MEMRI, then you can believe this.
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/julaug02herman.html
http://www.umanitoba.ca/manitoban/20030312/news_6.shtml
http://baltimorechronicle.com/rules_ofthe_game.html
If you want to question the neutrality go ahead, but atleast they are from outsiders (European or American) other than ahram (incidentally its mission statement is very similar to MEMRI in terms of researching events in the Middle East) not Palestinian or Israeli.
Informal Logic
May6-05, 11:47 PM
You know, a lot of the stuff you post doesn't even pass the giggle test. A very large percentage of Lebanese are not PRO-Palestinian. In fact, the Palestinians in Lebanon are treated worse then those in Palestine and have less rights then Arabs in the Palestine AND Israel. In fact, a very large percentage of Lebanese are of the Christian Faith and VERY anti-Muslim and hold very strong feelings against the PLO in part due to their massacre of the Christian people.I was referring primarily to this thread--that Bilal is from Palestine so is pro-Palestinian, and Yonoz is from Israel and is pro-Israeli. This is a tendency that is expected. I am sure there will be exceptions to the case, but that is what it is--exceptions.
As a result, objective debate is not likely. However, Bilal has done a superior job of providing quotes and links of sources that are as reliable and neutral as possible. He also has shown diplomacy, unlike some members who just have a biased axe to grind.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm:
Lebanon (1975-90):
1982-87 Israeli vs PLO: 40,000 civ. + 12,000 mil. = 62,000
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Gillespie0724.htm
http://www.ahram.org.eg/acpss/eng/ahram/2004/7/5/STUD6.HTM - If you believe MEMRI, then you can believe this.
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/julaug02herman.html
http://www.umanitoba.ca/manitoban/20030312/news_6.shtml
http://baltimorechronicle.com/rules_ofthe_game.html
If you want to question the neutrality go ahead, but atleast they are from outsiders (European or American) other than ahram (incidentally its mission statement is very similar to MEMRI in terms of researching events in the Middle East) not Palestinian or Israeli.Looking into that first site you linked to was enough - it said "during invasion". What you seem to forget is that prior to and during the invasion there was already an atrocious civil war. Attributing all casualties in Lebanon to the fault of Israel is a little out of the envelope IMO. As I showed earlier, although Israel should have done more to prevent it, the Sabra and Shatila massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre), which is the worst incident that can be linked to Israel, was in fact carried out completely by Lebanese Christian militias, who lived side by side with the Palestinians they murdered. This is further proof to the acute differences in the treatment of Palestinians in Arab countries and in Israel. While Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were getting an education and a stable economy, their brothers in Lebanon and Jordan were getting a much worse treatment.
However, Bilal has done a superior job of providing quotes and links of sources that are as reliable and neutral as possible. He also has shown diplomacy, unlike some members who just have a biased axe to grind.That is your personal opinion, which I disagree with. Have you actually compared the amount of links and their targets or are you basing your comment on your 'gut-feeling'?
But the problem still remains -- Bilal does not condemn Palestinian extremism. To some extent, he even glorifies it!
How can one discuss peace while continuing to support the violence?
(IMO, this is an even bigger obstacle to peace than the refusal to acknowledge Israel has legitimate self-defense concerns)
alexandra
May7-05, 09:41 AM
I do feel that Bilal has made extraordinary effort to not only substantiate his claims with quotes and links, but moreover has tried to provide sources that are as reliable and neutral as possible. I can't say the same for many of the other posts.
Yes, and this is why I started up the other thread about objectivity - I did not want to divert this thread's discussion.
Bilal, you have been very patient. Remember, there are other people who understand what you are saying and who agree with you. I am sorry I did not voice my support earlier, but I am now.
alexandra
May7-05, 09:47 AM
My English is not perfect and I waste a lot of time to find trusted article, while the others find it easy to copy from MEMRI and other propaganda sources…. Additionally, I have to worry if I continue this discussion in this way, because the other side claim that I support murdering of Israeli which is considered as crime according to Israeli laws.
This is a good point, Bilal - it is very time-consuming finding sources the people arguing against you may accept - but even if your references are neutral from reputable sources, they won't acknowledge this if they have already made up their minds.I think you are doing a very good job of arguing your case, and that you have found some excellent, reputable sources of information. Good stuff.
alexandra
May7-05, 09:52 AM
Outright lie.
No, it's not. Here you go, a quote from Wikipedia (or perhaps Wikipedia writers are lying?):
"Outcome of the war
[edit]
Casualties
Estimations are that about 17,825 Arabs were killed during the war. There are different estimations about the portions of civilians killed. A Beirut newspaper An Nahar estimated that
17,825 killed during the invasion
Outside Beirut
Military personnel: 9,797 (PLO, Syria, etc.)
Civilians: 2,513
Beirut area: 5,515 (mil. + civ.)
[1] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#Lebanon)"
Here's the link if you're interested in verifying the information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Invasion_of_Lebanon#Outcome_of_the_war
alexandra
May7-05, 09:55 AM
... surely you agree human life is worth more than any amount of houses and orchards.
Do you know, Yonoz, for *poor* people, who have nothing much, houses and orchards ARE their lives!
Dear Kat,
1. Arafat was elected for 5 years from 1996 till 2001. As you know in 2001, Israel started to destroy the infrastructure of PA and rejected to arrange the election till removal or death of Arafat. Unfortunately, USA supported them. As I know, during wars, elections could be postponed, while the government is considered legal during this period.
2- Here is what my link mentioned about Sharon, but I added information because I am from town near the border and my cousins are eyewitness of some crimes (such as slaughtering hundreds of Jordanian policemen in Azzun/Kalkilia). The other point is the Egyptian prisoners, who are not mentioned in the source, but it was main topic in ME and Egyptian media to know the fate of thousands of Egyptian prisoners who surrendered to Sharon during 1967war:
((Unit 101 undertook a series of retaliatory raids against Palestinians and neighboring Arab states that helped bolster Israeli morale and fortify its deterrent image. However, the unit was also criticized for targeting civilians as well as Arab soldiers, resulting in the widely-condemned Qibya massacre in the fall of 1953, in which more than sixty Jordanian civilians were killed in an attack on their village. In the documentary "Israel and the Arabs: 50 Year War" Ariel Sharon recalls what happened after the raid, which was heavily condemned by many countries in the West, including the U.S.: I was summoned to see Ben-Gurion. It was the first time I met him. and right from the start Ben-Gurion said to me: "Let me first tell you one thing: it doesn't matter what the world says about Israel, it doesn't matter what they say about us anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here on the land of our forefathers. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won't survive."Shortly afterwards, Unit 101 was merged into the 202nd Paratrooper Brigade (Sharon eventually becoming the latter's commander), which continued to attack military targets, culminating with the attack on Kalkiliya Police in autumn 1956.))
Just two small points...
1. Maybe you misunderstand how democracy works and maybe you are willing to overlook how Arafat remained in office..but, please, your statement about him being an elected leader is a bit....misleading. Arafat was elected.....once....when his term ended...he was not elected again. At that point, he was no longer an elected official but a self appointed one.
2. Your link...does not contain the comments you've placed below it. I think that a lot of people don't bother to click through and read links when they believe that you've pasted the information held in the link onto your message. So, the way you've posted a link and then placed commentary that the link does not include might mislead some people into thinking what you've said is...factual and derived from Wikepedia...which on a percusory search..it isn't.
Of course..Wikepedia as a source has it's own issues as well, but we'll leave that for another time.
No, it's not. Here you go, a quote from Wikipedia (or perhaps Wikipedia writers are lying?):
"Outcome of the war
[edit]
Casualties
Estimations are that about 17,825 Arabs were killed during the war. There are different estimations about the portions of civilians killed. A Beirut newspaper An Nahar estimated that
17,825 killed during the invasion
Outside Beirut
Military personnel: 9,797 (PLO, Syria, etc.)
Civilians: 2,513
Beirut area: 5,515 (mil. + civ.)
[1] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#Lebanon)"
Here's the link if you're interested in verifying the information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Invasion_of_Lebanon#Outcome_of_the_war
Well, you see...Bilal was attempting to attribute all of the arab deaths during that war to Sharon. Which, for anyone familiar with the intricacies of the situation in Lebanon to say this...would be an outright lie. My point in my post about Lebanon and the PLO to "Informal logic" is that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about if he percieves that it's an "exception" for Lebanese to hate..yes outright HATE..Palestinians.
He also attribituted the cause of the war TO israel, which can only be stated as OPINION not as fact. Many here need to get a grasp on the difference between OPINION and fact. From the Wikepedia link (and again, I have problems using Wikepedia as a source,or any publicly editable source for that matter)
Reasons for the war:
Starting in 1968, Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon raided northern Israel, and bombarded Israeli towns with katyusha rockets.
I wonder if Bilal can answer why Arab countries have been so hostile to Palestinians? (Why is this? Hint: It has a little something to do with the PLO)
Also, I want to welcome Yonoz to this thread and to this forum. I'm finding the difference in the tone used with Bilal and that used with Yonoz to be another great indicator of the bigotry so many of the active posters in the Political forum have.
Sources like electronicintifada.net??
You can read again what I mentioned. Only well known information are presented from pro Palestine sources , which you can not deny it as Day Land :
In fact I tried to be neutral as much as possible, so I did my best to use only international and accepted sources . Unfortunately, the discussion shifted to propaganda war, and the discussion is flooded by posts and links which based on biased sources of other side. If I want to reply in the same tactic by using pro Palestine propaganda sources then this discussion will convert to battlefield.(I just used Palestinian sources to show well known information as Day Land).
Oh yes, also from your link Alexandra
857 Pal. & Leb. k. by Christian militia in Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in 1982.
I'm sorry...I don't see Sharon's name here anywhere. I have inlaws who were members of the Phalange. In fact, General Aoun is the man who assisted my husband in getting out of Lebanon and to the U.S. to seek asylum. I can tell you, their hatred for the Palestinians who slaughtered their people after they welcomed them to their country with open arms...is very real, and although they have a "soft" bigotry in regards to the Jews..as a whole...it in no way compares to their anger at the Palestinians.
alexandra
May7-05, 10:32 AM
Well, you see...Bilal was attempting to attribute all of the arab deaths during that war to Sharon. Which, for anyone familiar with the intricacies of the situation in Lebanon to say this...would be an outright lie. My point in my post about Lebanon and the PLO to "Informal logic" is that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about if he percieves that it's an "exception" for Lebanese to hate..yes outright HATE..Palestinians.
He also attribituted the cause of the war TO israel, which can only be stated as OPINION not as fact. Many here need to get a grasp on the difference between OPINION and fact. From the Wikepedia link (and again, I have problems using Wikepedia as a source,or any publicly editable source for that matter).
Ok, Kat - I have three questions for you regarding the above post:
1. What are the intricacies of the situation in Lebanon - how do YOU know about them and where can I find unbiased information about this issue?
2. Show me proof that all Lebanese (without exception) 'outright HATE' Palestinians. Is this your opinion, or do you have proof? If you have a credible source of information to point me to, I will gladly read it and evaluate its trustworthiness.
3. What is your problem with the information cited on Wikepedia (other than that you happen not to agree with it)? Could you please clearly state what is incorrect/not credible about that source of information? Be specific.
I'm finding the difference in the tone used with Bilal and that used with Yonoz to be another great indicator of the bigotry so many of the active posters in the Political forum have.
Well, you pointed out that we must distinguish between fact and opinion. It is your opinion that people who disagree with Yonoz are bigoted; it is my opinion that people who take that viewpoint are bigoted. Who of us is more correct? Is this question worth pursuing, do you think?
2. Show me proof that it all Lebanese (without exception) 'outright HATE' Palestinians. Is this your opinion, or do you have proof? If you have a credible source of information to point me to, I will gladly read it and evaluate its trustworthiness. I don't have time for a thorough reply at the moment. I will reply in length later this weekend. BUT, for the moment...I would like you to quote me where I said "All Lebanese" (without exception)". ??? PLease, quote me..because I don't remember saying that at any time. Nor can I imagine saying that.
Well, you pointed out that we must distinguish between fact and opinion. It is your opinion that people who disagree with Yonoz are bigoted; it is my opinion that people who take that viewpoint are bigoted. Who of us is more correct? Is this question worth pursuing, do you think?
Actually, I don't think I said people who disagree with Yonoz are bigoted...please quote me if I did. Cause I can't imagine that I would ever consider disagreeing to be bigotry.
Dear Kat,
Lebanon demography from CIAsite :
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html
*******************
Lebanon
Religions:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: seventeen religious sects recognized
********************
Palestinian Had troubles only with extreme right wing of Maronite Christian.
Maronite Lebansee are less than 20% of total population . Unfortunately, the extremists Maronite are racist also against the rest of Lebanese including Roman Orthodox and Catholic Christian.
Palestinian have strong relations with Muslims Lebanese (Sunni, Shia, Duruz ….etc) , Roman orthodox, Catholic Orthodox and Armenian.
Additionally, there are many Maronite support Palestine than any other people, especially the left wing. Just examples: Elias Khoury, George Saada, Jozef Samaha , Marcel Khalifa, Julia Butrus , Suliman Frenjiah …
The Palestinian treated badly in Lebanon, because the racist right wing Maronite wanted them to live in isolated Ghetto , so they can not mix with Lebanese or get the nationality.They had similar idea of Zionism by creating ‘’Maronite Ghetto’’ in Lebanon.
You know, a lot of the stuff you post doesn't even pass the giggle test. A very large percentage of Lebanese are not PRO-Palestinian. In fact, the Palestinians in Lebanon are treated worse then those in Palestine and have less rights then Arabs in the Palestine AND Israel. In fact, a very large percentage of Lebanese are of the Christian Faith and VERY anti-Muslim and hold very strong feelings against the PLO in part due to their massacre of the Christian people.
alexandra
May7-05, 10:48 AM
I don't have time for a thorough reply at the moment. I will reply in length later this weekend. BUT, for the moment...I would like you to quote me where I said "All Lebanese" (without exception)". ??? PLease, quote me..because I don't remember saying that at any time. Nor can I imagine saying that. Actually, I don't think I said people who disagree with Yonoz are bigoted...please quote me if I did. Cause I can't imagine that I would ever consider disagreeing to be bigotry.
Ok, Kat - please don't play word games with me. Here you go, the quotes you are demanding...
My point in my post about Lebanon and the PLO to "Informal logic" is that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about if he percieves that it's an "exception" for Lebanese to hate..yes outright HATE..Palestinians.
Also, I want to welcome Yonoz to this thread and to this forum. I'm finding the difference in the tone used with Bilal and that used with Yonoz to be another great indicator of the bigotry so many of the active posters in the Political forum have.
In effect, you are saying that it's NOT an exception for Lebanese people to hate Palestinian people, and you definitely specifically wrote that different tones used (which, anyway, you have not substantiated - plenty of people have addressed the issue in quite neutral tones) indicate bigotry.
Victims of Civil war is another issue, they are from 140000 to 170000 within 15 years. The topic is only about victims of Israeli invasion for 6 months.
Israel murdered civilians in 6 months of its invasion to Lebanon more than all Jews victims (militants and civilians) in one century.
Looking into that first site you linked to was enough - it said "during invasion". What you seem to forget is that prior to and during the invasion there was already an atrocious civil war. Attributing all casualties in Lebanon to the fault of Israel is a little out of the envelope IMO.
Dear Kat,
I understand your situation, and I know that your husband is Maronite Lebanese .
If Arab hate the Palestinian, so why the decided to fight with them for decades? Why they do not receive the Israeli by kisses and roses because they destroyed the Palestinian? Why there a lot of anger from USA in Arab world because they responsible about Palestinian tragedy?
I visited many Arab countries, I agree that security men scare from me because they think that Palestinian are danger on their dictators, while normal Arab people cry when they hear the word ‘’Palestine’’.
Concerning Lebanon,
You already said that Christian Lebanese are anti Muslims … this is incorrect. during the civil war , both Lebnese left wing and Syrian social party were under Maronite leadership. Both groups were fighting with PLO against the right Maronite wing.
Emil Lahoud who is Maronite Lebanese and president is big supporter of Palestine. Also Sulieman Frenjiah , who is from the leaders of Maronite is anti Israel and pro Palestine. Even El Ktaed new leadership , Karim Pakradouni (right wing), became supporter of Palestine and Syria.
Here are links about very well known Lebanese Maronite heros and artists who supports Palestine (Obviously, most of Muslims, Orthodox, catholic, Duruz and Armenian support Palestine):
- Suha Beshara
http://www.lebwa.org/life/becharas.php
Beshara attempted the assassination of Antoine Lahad by opening fire on him in his house. He was seriously wounded in the shoulder and chest. (General Antoine Lahad: Leader of South Lebanon Army. he is agent of Israel, he working in nightclub in Tel Aviv now. )
- Marcel Khalifa
He is the most popular singer in Arab world. He is the voice of Palestine.
http://www.marcelkhalife.com/
-Julia Butrus
One of most popular Maronite singers. She also the voice of Palestine in Arab world.
http://www.julia-boutros.com/
- Elias Khouri
This good link show the opinion of Maronite Lebanese thinker from Left wing about the conflict in his country:
http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/breview/br5/khourybr5.html
Elias Khouri is one of greatest Arab artists. He is writer of many movies concerning the Palestinian catastrophe.
As I know most of well known characters who support Palestine in this conflict are Maronite Lebanese, so please no need to generalize even about Maronite.
There is pro Palestine Maronite and there are anti Palestine Maronites as any community in the world. While the rest of Lebanese, in general, are supporters of Palestine.
I wonder if Bilal can answer why Arab countries have been so hostile to Palestinians? (Why is this? Hint: It has a little something to do with the PLO)
Informal Logic
May7-05, 02:44 PM
...My point in my post about Lebanon and the PLO to "Informal logic" is that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about if he percieves that it's an "exception" for Lebanese to hate..yes outright HATE..Palestinians..This is the kind of post to which I made earlier reference:
…I apologize for not participating in this thread more, but I do not have as much tolerance as you do for the lack of 'objectivity' often by the same members who claim this is needed.To say that Arabs tend to be pro-Palestinian, and Jews tend to be pro-Israeli is being clueless? Though already addressed in this thread, I did not bother to source this because this is such basic knowledge (or one would think so). ...Many here need to get a grasp on the difference between OPINION and fact. If you are going to attack others for posting opinion, it would be more credible if you provided reliable and neutral sources for your claims, as well as showing a more neutral tone and leaving insults at the door. But more importantly please do not misrepresent what I have said (it appears you were referring to me).
...He also attribituted the cause of the war TO israel, which can only be stated as OPINION not as fact.
Ultimately, it is the US that has created this mess, and the US that has helped to perpetuate this mess.I have repeatedly made statements of this nature, and have made observations of all parties involved.
...From the Wikepedia link (and again, I have problems using Wikepedia as a source,or any publicly editable source for that matter).I am aware of disputes regarding Wikipedia. One can only try their best to provide sources as reliable and neutral as possible, and the largest consensus is that Wikipedia is one of these sources. As for editing, I view fellow PF members as ethical and trust that information is provided per academic guidelines.
Informal Logic
May7-05, 06:01 PM
...You keep using that word. I don't think you have the slightest clue what it means. I know you posted the definition before, but the way you've used it throughout the thread implies you are just utterly ignoring the definition.
Arafat was a leader. Terrorism, by definition, is not an act comitted directly against a leader, it is against a group of people (civilians) or their property. Furthermore, the Israelis weren't trying to scare him, they were trying to keep him on a leash - to disrupt his terrorist activities without killing him. Yes, I think they would have been perfectly justified in killing him, but politically it wasn't worth the backlash.Are you sure it is not you who ignores definitions? While this may be a more common definition, it is not the only definition. For the last time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
NOTE:The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (For Kat, and the fact that Wikipedia indicates this, shows a sincere attempt at objectivity.)
Types [of definitions]
Nationalist
Religious
Left-wing
Right-wing
State
Islamist
Ethnic
Narcoterrorism
Domestic
Anarchist
Political
Eco-terrorism
Christian
Terrorism is a controversial term with multiple definitions. One definition means a violent action targetting civilians exclusively. Another definition is the use or threatened use of violence for the purpose of creating fear in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological goal. Under the second definition, the targets of terrorist acts can be anyone, including civilians, government officials, military personnel, or people serving the interests of governments.
Through intimidation or by instilling fear, terrorism can be used as a form of blackmail to apply pressure on governments for goals the terrorists could not achieve by direct violence alone. Civilians are usually held to be "innocent" victims of terrorist violence if they are unarmed and not in uniform when it occurs. Intentional violence against civilians (noncombatants) is the type of action most widely condemned as "terrorism".
Guerrilla warfare is often confused with terrorism as a small force attempts to achieve large goals using organized acts of violence against a larger force. But in contrast to terrorism, these acts are against military targets, and civilian targets are minimized to increase public support. For this reason, it is generally considered to be a military strategy rather than terrorism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism#Who_is_a_terrorist.3F
According to one view, the difference in terminology is completely subjective: One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. The opposing view is that the two terms are distinct, and that an individual can be a terrorist, a freedom fighter, or both simultaneously.
Controversial definitions
On the surface, the popular definition of 'terrorism' represents a shift from previous means of defining an enemy, that is, from territorial or cultural disputes over ideology or religion, to the open acts of violence against the public. Many people dispute this definition however as ideological and simplistic, arguing instead that 'terrorism' is simply another in a long lists of enemy terms — that underneath any current conflict lies the same materialistic and ethnocentric reasons of which most past wars were based. The use of the terms terrorism and terrorist are politically weighted, and are often used for a polarizing effect, where 'terrorism' becomes simply a relativist term for the violence committed by an enemy, from the point of view of the attacked. Because of the political nature of some struggles, 'terrorism' can become identified as simply any violence committed against established institutions.
State combatants
The violence, i.e., terrorism, committed by state combatants is also considered more acceptable than that of the 'terrorist,' who by definition refuses to follow the self-serving laws of war, and hence cannot share in the acceptance given to establishment violence. Thus the term is impossible to apply by its rational definition — states who engage in warfare often do so outside of the laws of war and often carry out violence against civilian populations, yet rarely receive the label of 'terrorist.' The common public distinction between state violence and terrorism is based on a perception that terrorism targets noncombatants as a consistent policy, and therefore more irrational than state violence, which is assumed to be more considerate of human life, or at least does not consistently pursue unarmed civilian targets with the same zeal.
History does not always bear this out, however, and language reflects this: few would question that deliberate attacks on civilian refugee columns and camps is an attempt to induce terror in the enemy population and is therefore a terrorist act. As such the most accurate definition of "terrorism" must be based in its abstract nature as a term for characterising the violence of an enemy as conforming to an immoral code of conduct.And if I recall correctly, in a previous thread you were also provided a Wikipedia quote by Naomi Chomsky illustrating that many view the US as using terrorist tactics as well.
Informal Logic
May7-05, 06:15 PM
That is your personal opinion, which I disagree with. Have you actually compared the amount of links and their targets or are you basing your comment on your 'gut-feeling'?Since Bilal indicates his location is Palestine, and you indicate your's as Israel, I used you both as an example of predisposition. With reference to providing quotes and links for reliable sources, I was not referring to you. You have provided links as well, and many are from Wikipedia, so Kat would have more of an issue with reliability than I would. Likewise, welcome to PF.
This is a long thread with lengthy posts, but if anyone cares to they will see that Bilal provides quotes and links--often several--and more often than just responding with opinion, and when he does not source directly, his use of specifics such as dates, etc. indicates he is basing his response on more than just opinion. This is what I have observed, and all that I've meant to say with regard to objectivity.
No, it's not. Here you go, a quote from Wikipedia (or perhaps Wikipedia writers are lying?):
"Outcome of the war
[edit]
Casualties
Estimations are that about 17,825 Arabs were killed during the war. There are different estimations about the portions of civilians killed. A Beirut newspaper An Nahar estimated that
17,825 killed during the invasion
Outside Beirut
Military personnel: 9,797 (PLO, Syria, etc.)
Civilians: 2,513
Beirut area: 5,515 (mil. + civ.)
[1] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#Lebanon)"
Here's the link if you're interested in verifying the information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Invasion_of_Lebanon#Outcome_of_the_war
Let me quote Bilal one more time:1982: He invaded Lebanon and murdered 20000 civiliansCan you tell the difference between Bilal's comment and what is written in the article?
Let us analyse this further: he is claiming the deaths of nearly 20000 people during the Israeli invasion as murder. This was during a war - do you believe all casualties in war are victims of murder? If so you have a very broad definition of murder that doesn't do justice to victims of real murder.
Bilal also claims deaths of 20000 civilians. Have a look at your post - it clearly says "Military personnel: 9,797 (PLO, Syria, etc.)" inside Beirut.
Last, Bilal claims all these deaths can be attributed to Sharon. The invasion was during the civil war in Lebanon, in which many factions fought each other. As I commented earlier, the Sabra and Shatila massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre), the largest massacre attributed to Israel, was actually performed by Christian Arab militias. You see, not all Lebanese deaths during the invasion are at the hands of Israelis, and definitely not Sharon.
So you can see how a comment such as this:1982: He invaded Lebanon and murdered 20000 civiliansis an ugly manipulation of facts at best, and an outright lie at worst?
Do you know, Yonoz, for *poor* people, who have nothing much, houses and orchards ARE their lives!You know, for both poor and rich people who may have nothing much or everything they could ask for, the lives of their children ARE their lives. Can you tell me how many ruined houses and destroyed orchards justify the bombing of a school bus packed with students (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/05/mideast/)?
I agree the destruction of houses and orchards is the wrong way to go, but I cannot ever understand those who justify the murder of innocent children with ill-treatment, no matter how much property they lost.
Also, I want to welcome Yonoz to this thread and to this forum.Thankyou.
I'm finding the difference in the tone used with Bilal and that used with Yonoz to be another great indicator of the bigotry so many of the active posters in the Political forum have.
Well, you pointed out that we must distinguish between fact and opinion. It is your opinion that people who disagree with Yonoz are bigoted; it is my opinion that people who take that viewpoint are bigoted. Who of us is more correct? Is this question worth pursuing, do you think?kat and alexandra: please do not allow this to deteriorate into a personal matter. I understand it is hard to form a balanced view far away from the actual conflict due to the nature of modern media and popular trends. My aim is not to make friends and this is not a popularity contest. I am content with merely being allowed to explain my point of view, no matter how hard some find it to accept.
If Arab hate the Palestinian, so why the decided to fight with them for decades?Because Arab nations use Palestinians as a tool to weaken Israel. Can you get any figures on the amount of humanitarian aid given to the Palestinians by Arab countries? That is, aid other than training, weapons and munitions.
I visited many Arab countries, I agree that security men scare from me because they think that Palestinian are danger on their dictators, while normal Arab people cry when they hear the word ‘’Palestine’’.Why would they think Palestinians are dangerous? Didn't you "fight with them"?
(General Antoine Lahad: Leader of South Lebanon Army. he is agent of Israel, he working in nightclub in Tel Aviv now. )I see, if someone allies with the Palestinians they are sympathetic, whereas if someone allies with Israel he is an "agent".
You have shown so many examples of Palestinian supporters. Can you give any examples of Arab figures whome you do not consider "agents" that have raised serious objection to deaths of Israeli civilians?
Since Bilal indicates his location is Palestine, and you indicate your's as Israel, I used you both as an example of predisposition. With reference to providing quotes and links for reliable sources, I was not referring to you. You have provided links as well, and many are from Wikipedia, so Kat would have more of an issue with reliability than I would.I apologize then. Please make it clearer in the future when making making that sort of comment. I am rather defensive when posting here due to the serious accusations raised in the thread.
Likewise, welcome to PF.Thankyou.
This is a long thread with lengthy posts, but if anyone cares to they will see that Bilal provides quotes and links--often several--and more often than just responding with opinion, and when he does not source directly, his use of specifics such as dates, etc. indicates he is basing his response on more than just opinion. This is what I have observed, and all that I've meant to say with regard to objectivity.While on the surface it may seem thorough and well based, IMO his quotation of sources is selective and misleading. That is my own personal opinion and I do not think this subject is debatable, so I hope I haven't just shifted the topic.
klusener
May7-05, 07:23 PM
Well, wikipedia's reliability is to be doubted at best, as I am sure Kat will attest to.. :) But that's not the only source though, they get those numbers from a newspaper from the 1980s, so again can it be trusted or who knows when that newspaper edition was published and again they say it's an estimation. These numbers are not set in stone, because the sites that I provided put the civilian deaths at more than 20000. It's so hard finding a reliable source with these things, I guess only God knows when it comes right down to it.
Well, wikipedia's reliability is to be doubted at best, as I am sure Kat will attest to.. :) But that's not the only source though, they get those numbers from a newspaper from the 1980s, so again can it be trusted or who knows when that newspaper edition was published and again they say it's an estimation. These numbers are not set in stone, because the sites that I provided put the civilian deaths at more than 20000. It's so hard finding a reliable source with these things, I guess only God knows when it comes right down to it.It is also a matter of definition - because of the complexity of the participating forces and their alliances no one can say what can be attributed to the Israeli invasion and what is the result of the earlier stages of the civil war.
There were many accounts of young children participating in the fighting - among Israeli troops they were known as the "RPG boys" - because they often were young teenagers who were armed with an RPG launcher and few bombs. Since they were not trained, a lot of them were injured from the actual firing of the RPG which produces strong flames and a powerful recoil. Surely those should be counted as civilian casualties, but does it do justice to someone who had faced one of these boys to say "you killed another civilian?"
alexandra
May7-05, 11:12 PM
I agree the destruction of houses and orchards is the wrong way to go, but I cannot ever understand those who justify the murder of innocent children with ill-treatment, no matter how much property they lost.
Yonoz, I am glad we agree about the issue of the destruction of houses and orchards. I want to emphatically say, though, that I would never justify or support any sort of killing/torture/maiming of innocent children/civilians (no matter what their nationality) under any circumstances.
In this topic we are talking about a cycle of violence based on historical events, and the task of our analysis (as I see it) is to clarify exactly what has led to this situation, and what the key factors are that are contributing to its continuation right now. I think a proper understanding of the historical roots and key factors leading to a situation are essential if appropriate solutions are to be found. The questions are: "How did this situation arise?" and "What are the key factors leading to its continuation?" (and not all of these factors would be immediately obvious; they would be hidden under mountains of confusing propaganda). It is only once these matters are sorted out that a viable and appropriate solution can even begin to be formulated.
alexandra
May7-05, 11:14 PM
Thankyou.
kat and alexandra: please do not allow this to deteriorate into a personal matter. I understand it is hard to form a balanced view far away from the actual conflict due to the nature of modern media and popular trends. My aim is not to make friends and this is not a popularity contest. I am content with merely being allowed to explain my point of view, no matter how hard some find it to accept.
Quite correct, Yonoz. My apologies for reacting.
I agree the destruction of houses and orchards is the wrong way to go, but I cannot ever understand those who justify the murder of innocent children with ill-treatment, no matter how much property they lost.
common, don't be childish ! we were talking about your army killing civilians AND destroying property !
Yonoz, I am glad we agree about the issue of the destruction of houses and orchards. I want to emphatically say, though, that I would never justify or support any sort of killing/torture/maiming of innocent children/civilians (no matter what their nationality) under any circumstances.I understand then that you too see the assymetry between the violence against Palestinians and violence against Israelis.
In this topic we are talking about a cycle of violence based on historical events, and the task of our analysis (as I see it) is to clarify exactly what has led to this situation, and what the key factors are that are contributing to its continuation right now.I would rather focus on what should be done to end this cycle but unfortunately the debate keeps returning to the justification of violence rather than how to end it.
I think a proper understanding of the historical roots and key factors leading to a situation are essential if appropriate solutions are to be found.To a certain extent. I, as well as a considerable portion of Israeli society, completely agree modern Palestinians are victims. However, that is just one side of the coin. It seems to me that the Palestinian society is not willing to look at its faults and role in creating this situation, or even see the matter from an Israeli perspective. Furthermore, they still widely support violence as a legitimate means of struggle.
I understand how it seems to a westerner watching their evening news and reading their morning papers - a modern country with highways and a regular army fighting a struggling nation that no one ever cared about. I also understand the Palestinian view - refugees displaced by a nation of mixed cultures and skin tones, backed by a strong international lobby with massive funds. However, I do not understand the use of violence against civilians and I further do not understand why it is still accepted, sometimes encouraged, by both Palestinians and westerners.
There are plenty of Israeli groups and individuals sympathetic to the Palestinians, even to the point of violent confrontation against the security forces. We lost a prime-minister to the struggle against our own extremists. In contrast, there have been no public challenges to the acceptance and use of violence in the Palestinian struggle.
Understandably, there is much sympathy to the victims of violence on the Palestinian side, even to the point of acceptance of the use of violence. However, it seems to be disregarded that Israelis elect their leadership, and that the use of violence against Israel (and Israel's efficient prevention of that violence by use of force) affects public opinion in Israel in a very negative manner - so, it is not only an unacceptable means, it is also detrimental to their cause (assuming their aim is a peaceful coexistence of two states).
The questions are: "How did this situation arise?" and "What are the key factors leading to its continuation?" (and not all of these factors would be immediately obvious; they would be hidden under mountains of confusing propaganda). It is only once these matters are sorted out that a viable and appropriate solution can even begin to be formulated.I think there can never be total agreement between the opposing sides as to the history of violence in the region. Of course, agreements of any kind between the two sides are important to the cause of ending the conflict. Nevertheless, IMO we should focus on what can be done (or what should not be done) here and now to end the cycle of violence. I am quite willing to discuss historical events but I do not think that it would sum up to anything crucial or substantialy constructive.
I think the use of the word "propaganda" is rather liberal. Naturally events that occured during times of conflict, especially early ones, will have completely different descriptions on both sides. The causes for these events will disagreed upon even more. For example, what sort of serious, factuated response can I give to Bilal's claim that the native inhabitants of Palestine did not plant trees and conquer the desert because they "knew" it would be "harmful to the environment", which IMHO is a total load of crap? And this is not even a comment about the many alleged "massacres" and "murders" - some of those are even harder to disprove as any source presenting the Israeli account of things will be discarded as biased. Is there any conflict in modern history whose most intricate details are agreed upon by both sides? I see this re-writing of history as just another chapter in this conflict. It is only after the dust settles over this troubled land that both sides will be able to come to the most basic agreement on historical facts - and that will be in a while. Until then these types of debates will only end in deadlock, and are therefor of little value to those who truly want to bring about peaceful times.
common, don't be childish ! we were talking about your army killing civilians AND destroying property !Would that justify blowing up schoolkids?
Would that justify blowing up schoolkids?
I can ask you exactly the same question. Is your army justified in killing school children ?
I can ask you exactly the same question. Is your army justified in killing school children ?What event are you refering to?
http://palestinetimes.net/issue161/news.html
http://palestinetimes.net/issue161/news.htmlThere are several incidents mentioned on that page, which one are you refering to?
I can ask you exactly the same question. Is your army justified in killing school children ?
But yet, asking the same question is not answering the question. You still haven't said if you think any of this justifies Palestinians blowing up schoolchildren.
well... I provided Yonoz with example of Israeli soldier murdering palestinian school girl in a cold blood (she's not the only one), and i'm waiting what he has to say and would like to see example of palestinians killing on purpose jewish kids.
There were propably instances where jewish kids died in bombings, but whoever did that was mentally sick, however israeli officer killed her in cold blood with premeditation. Until this accident i never suspected Israeli army doing things like that, soldiers are highly trained people they know rules of war or do they ??
Four-apartments Building was bombed at 12 midnight, beacuse there are wanted man sleeping in ground apartment!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,762246,00.html
Israel faced searing international criticism yesterday after an airstrike which tore into a teeming neighbourhood of Gaza City, killing a Palestinian militant leader as well as nine children who were sleeping nearby.
The Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon had earlier hailed the assassination of the founder of the military wing of Hamas, Salah Shehada, as a "great success", despite the total death toll of 15.
The UN secretary general Kofi Annan urged Israel to halt such actions. "Israel has the legal and moral responsibility to take all measures to avoid the loss of innocent life; it clearly failed to do so in using a missile against an apartment building," a statement said
Again you just twist my words!
I said those settlers brought new trees (from their origin countries –mainly Europe) with them which consume a lot of water. These trees are not suitable in Middle East which suffers from water shortage …
Israel just steals the water of Syrian Golan heights (100%), South Lebanon (Wazani and Litani rivers), Jordan valley and West Bank (85%) to irrigate these trees.
There are no (real) desert in Palestine, we have dry land in the south with fertile soil , but no water resources. It is not wonderful job to steal the water of other nations and to irrigate these lands. It is appreciated if Israel uses its nuclear reactors to produce fresh water instead to plan how to annihilate ME or to prepare for Armageddon – nuclear winter.
There are a lot of desert areas in Australia, so why you did not go there and convert it to green land?
For example, what sort of serious, factuated response can I give to Bilal's claim that the native inhabitants of Palestine did not plant trees and conquer the desert because they "knew" it would be "harmful to the environment", which IMHO is a total load of crap?
I got these information from your link:
((Hours later, Palestinian hospital officials said 11 Palestinians were killed and nearly 100 injured Thursday during an Israeli operation near the Jabaliya refugee camp. ))
((However, the circumstances of the reported Palestinian casualties were not immediately clear. The Israeli army said it was checking reports that Israeli forces fired a tank shell into a crowd of unarmed Palestinians))
((At the time of the Haifa bombing, bus No. 37 was carrying many high school and college students on Mount Carmel in Haifa about 2 p.m. (7 a.m. ET), Assistant Police Commander Dani Kuffler said. ))
(("We condemn all attacks against civilians, including today's attack in Haifa," he said. "The attack will only serve to distract attention from the more than 150 Palestinian civilians killed by Israel over the last two months." ))
You know, for both poor and rich people who may have nothing much or everything they could ask for, the lives of their children ARE their lives. Can you tell me how many ruined houses and destroyed orchards justify the bombing of a school bus packed with students (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/05/mideast/)?
I agree the destruction of houses and orchards is the wrong way to go, but I cannot ever understand those who justify the murder of innocent children with ill-treatment, no matter how much property they lost.
The problem that they count only Israeli victims and ignore the barbarism of the occupation army!!!
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
Here information about the occupation crimes from the Israeli human right center. This is the official Israeli center of human rights and it is recognized by the Israeli government and the international organization.
Palestinian human right centers show worse statistics, but I would like to present what Israeli mentioned:
Fatalities
9.29.2000-4.20.2005 Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 3168 56
Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 35
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 218 438
Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 219 83
Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians 10 32
Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces 10
Palestinians killed by Palestinians 150
**********************************************
Additional data (included in previous table)Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 642 1
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians 34 79
Palestinians killed during the course of an assasination 288
Palestinians who were the target of an assasination 181
Palestinians killed by Palestinians for suspected collaboration with Israel 111
***********************************************
(P.S: those Israeli civilians in Occupied Territories are ''militant settlers" , so I do not agree with the report to describe them as civilians. Additionally, most of the "Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians" are those who have dual nationality.)
From the previous statistics:
Israel killed 642 kids while Palestinian killed 79 kids.
Those Israeli kids who murdered in occupied land (34) are responsibility of Israeli government-their militant parents-Palestinian (who attacked them).
You can observe also that what Settlers (parent of those kids) murdered 35 Palestinian civilians.
This is documented Israeli official sources and I am sure the Palestinian human right sources double the numbers of Palestinian victims, but the truth will be somewhere between.
I said before, I am against murdering any human, and I do not believe in wars. I feel sad for victims from both sides …. But the problem, they count the Israeli victims (as American media do) and do not count the Palestinian …
This means they believe that Jews blood is superior to Palestinian blood.
I said before, I am against murdering any human, and I do not believe in wars. I feel sad for victims from both sides …. But the problem, they count the Israeli victims (as American media do) and do not count the Palestinian …
This means they believe that Jews blood is superior to Palestinian blood.
Hey Bilal,
American media... that is something horrendous man ! I don't watch TV anymore otherwise I would commit crime throwing my TV out of my 9th floor window and injure someone. I also stoped reading our newspapers ,newspapers here are only good for their croosword puzzles,and weather synopsis the rest is pure garbage.
And now I have just internet thank God ! however sooner or later they will get to the internet and start censoring it
well... I provided Yonoz with example of Israeli soldier murdering palestinian school girl in a cold blood (she's not the only one), and i'm waiting what he has to say and would like to see example of palestinians killing on purpose jewish kids.Now that I know which one of the incidents on that page you were referring to, I can answer your question. First I'll say IMO that girl's death was not justified. Now we can turn to the details of this case:
Most of the controversy in this matter was raised by the fact Iman al-Hams was shot over 20 times, not because she was initially shot. The shooter, the company's commanding officer, was put on trial for the illegal use of a weapon, obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer, and abuse of authority (the officer raised the subject after the incident in a talk with his troops). During this trial it was discovered some of the soldiers lied as part of an ongoing disobedience in the company (one of the prosecution's witnesses confessed to it in a dramatic moment during the trial). Because of his failure to control his troops and lack of leadership that officer was suspended.
Iman was shot in a clearly marked restricted zone, nowhere near her school (as a matter of fact, her school was in the opposite direction to the shooting from her house). These restricted zones surround Israeli settlements and bases so that passing-by civilian population will cannot be used as cover for attacks on them. They are marked and no one enters them. During my military service I saw some children and mentally ill adults enter these zones. On a few occassions we managed to spot someone observing them from a safe distance. In Iman's case, an observation post video shows a figure somewhere in the vicinity (some reports claim it is 50m away but you can never tell), which stays during the shooting and moves away later. In my case, we gathered it was a way of testing our defences, as we would not harm these individuals but would send a patrol to the area or fire at dead spots to get them to back away. By probing our responses in that way they could choose the best places sneak past our observations. This suspicion was confirmed by intelligence data. Sometimes these approaches would be twice or three times a day, moving in a linear pattern along the perimeter. In that particular case, the girl must have done something to make the soldiers think she was an immediate threat, such as walking directly towards them with a backpack, as they fired at her with intent to kill (IMO this is where a mistake was made). When considering the soldiers' actions, you should keep in mind the use of Palestinian children in suicide bombings (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/02/isrlpa9591.htm) and other types of violence. These children are recruited to the struggle (http://www.operationsick.com/articles/20010515_arafatschildren.asp) sometimes against the family's wishes, but sometimes Palestinian families support the use of their own children in the violent conflict (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=22380).
Iman was initially shot from one of the posts, 70m away, and later from a closer range by that officer. It isn't clear which of the shootings killed her. She was carrying a backpack which she dropped after the first shot.
There were propably instances where jewish kids died in bombings, but whoever did that was mentally sickI doubt it, but this violence is accepted and supported by the PA and by the Palestinian society, and there are no Palestinian movements or individuals even calling for this to change. In contrast, this event dominated Israeli discussions and media reports and editorials for weeks. I'm sure if you run a google search on the topic you'll find plenty of Israelis criticizing the IDF and persons involved this event.
however israeli officer killed her in cold blood with premeditation.What makes you so certain of this? You read a short, unprofessional article on a blatant pro-Palestinian site and you think that qualifies you to make that judgement? It isn't even clear whether he killed her or the first shots from the post did. I agree it's an unnecessary death but you are taking this too far.
Until this accident i never suspected Israeli army doing things like that, soldiers are highly trained people they know rules of war or do they ??This is not conventional warfare. As I showed, Palestinian terror organisations use children and teenagers to perform acts of violence. They use children as suicide bombers (http://www.operationsick.com/articles/20040325_pachildbomber.asp), use children to smuggle weapons (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/4/27/latest/20050427185426&sec=latest) and as ways of probing Israeli defences. The IDF stopped a short practice of boobytrapping discovered ambush locations after a group of children with a handcart who were apparently sent in to further prepare it activated the explosive. I have personaly seen children who had obviously no idea what they were doing try to storm a settlement with knives. In their backpacks we found rough sketches of the area and some pieces of cloth from the one of the youth-movements there. It was obvious someone else had put them up to it. In such horrible realities, telling who's a threat and who isn't is very difficult. If you were standing at the same post for several weeks and then one day a figure with a backpack started walking towards you in a restricted zone that no-one enters, you'd be singing a different song.
I would like to let you know I'll be away for the next 2 days.
I'm looking forward to resuming this discussion when I return.
Keep safe, everyone.
Four-apartments Building was bombed at 12 midnight, beacuse there are wanted man sleeping in ground apartment!That was indeed an unfortunate incident. The official statement attributed this unneeded loss of life to an intelligence fault, saying they thought the building was empty. Whatever the cause, that incident raised a lot of objection in Israel and a plea to the supreme court (case 8794/03) was issued by a group of emminent Israelis - including reserve pilots who made a petition announcing they would not participate in future strikes in the territories - to start an investigation into the unnecessary loss of innocent lives, and is currently in its final stages. There was even graffiti sprayed on to the cars of airforce pilots.
But have you ever looked at what Salah Shehade did during his life (http://www.embajada-israel.es/politica/Shehada1.html)? Here's a short resume:
Passover bombing (http://www.amnesty.org.il/israel/ua_israeli.html) - 30 dead, 140 wounded.
Dolphinarium bombing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1365649.stm)
The Sbarro family restaurant bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing) - 15 dead, including a couple and their children aged 2, 4, and 14; two girls aged 15 and 16; a 33yo dr. and his 8yo daughter; a pregnant woman; and 18 year old waitress, and more.
Emmanuel bus attack (http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/12/isrl1214.htm) - 10 dead.
Atzmona study hall massacre (http://www.education.gov.il/children/page_39_b.htm) - 5 teenagers dead.
Emmanuel bus bombing (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/07/16/mideast/?related) - 9 dead, including a father and his 8 months old daughter, and a premature baby delivered in the ER after the mother was seriously injured.
Again you just twist my words!Really?Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it.What I'd like to know is how the native people in Palestine know about Eucalyptus before Sir Joseph Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Banks). Let's see just how bad they are for the ecological system in the ME (http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/os_ozsp.htm#anchor320006):In Egypt, where it is converted to particleboard, it is useful for its bank stabilisation/erosion-control properties, as well as its ability to survive while inundated by flood waters. Since the 1880s, red gums have helped to eradicate malarial swamps in Israel, reforest barren areas denuded by the firewood-hungry Ottoman Empire, and supply timber, shade and protection from marauding Arab armies. Also suitable for turnery, flooring, furniture, panelling, etc.I hope I don't get flamed for using such a pro-Israeli site... :tongue2:
I said those settlers brought new trees (from their origin countries –mainly Europe) with them which consume a lot of water. These trees are not suitable in Middle East which suffers from water shortage …There weren't many Australian settlers, and Eucalypts aren't native to Europe. Do you just make historical facts up? What do you base that last comment on - have you anything to back that up?
Israel just steals the water of Syrian Golan heights (100%), South Lebanon (Wazani and Litani rivers), Jordan valley and West Bank (85%) to irrigate these trees.Israel is downstream from Lebanon. How can it steal water from Lebanon if the rivers flow from Lebanon? It seems you need to read up on the geography of water resources (http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~wws401c/geography.html). A few select quotes:Eighty percent of the basin, however, is in Israel, Jordan, and the West Bank, which do not have other significant surface water sources, and have only limited groundwater sources. Jordan relies on the surface waters of the basin for 75% of its water needs, while Israel relies on the surface waters for only 30% of its water consumption because it has larger aquifers from which to draw water. Syria relies on the basin minimally, for the Euphrates River and other smaller basins fall within its borders. Israel and Palestine have an combined 1.4 BCM/yr of renewable water resources, with an additional 450 MCM/yr captured by Israeli water reuse and rainwater collection for a total of about 2 BCM/yr. Already a deficit of water exists between what is used and what is available in the environment. In 1994, Israel and the Palestinian territories used approximately 2.1 BCM of water.The figures for Israel and the Palestinian territories are combined, because Israel supplies the Palestinians from its national infrastructure, even in times of conflict. Israel also provides water to villages in South Lebanon and quite a substantial amount to Jordan, in excess of the amount set by the treaties between the two states.
There are no (real) desert in Palestine, we have dry land in the south with fertile soil , but no water resources.I'm assuming by "Palestine" you mean also the State of Israel, and then it depends on how you define a desert. I think it's acceptable to say it is a place with little rainfall (let's settle for under 20mm/year), which would make a very large part of Israel a genuine desert.
It is not wonderful job to steal the water of other nations and to irrigate these lands.The southern part of Israel is irrigated by water from the national carrier, originating in the Sea of Galilee, like most of Israel. The carrier was constructed in the 50's, and supplies the West Bank and Gaza as well. A lot of water is supplied from seasonal catchments that capture water that would otherwise flow to the Mediterrenean, and some of the agricultural water is supplied from treated sewerage. In Eilat, on the Red Sea, there is a desalination plant supplying water to that region.
It is appreciated if Israel uses its nuclear reactors to produce fresh water instead to plan how to annihilate ME or to prepare for Armageddon – nuclear winter.Israel uses its electricity (which is derived from coal since it's not advisable for it to develop a dependence for oil) to desalinate water from the Red Sea and there are more desalination plants being constructed. I'll ignore that last childish comment, it has no place in a serious debate.
There are a lot of desert areas in Australia, so why you did not go there and convert it to green land?Surely you're not being insensitive to the Australian Aborigines.
The problem that they count only Israeli victims and ignore the barbarism of the occupation army!!!While I have acknowledged events such as Deir Yassin and Kefar Qana, you systematically ignore any comments on Palestinian terrorism. IMO you are the one ignoring barbarity here.
Here information about the occupation crimes from the Israeli human right center. This is the official Israeli center of human rights and it is recognized by the Israeli government and the international organization.Would you stop making things up? From the B'Tselem site:B'Tselem is independent and is funded by contributions from foundations in Israel, Europe, and North America that support human rights activity worldwide, and by private individuals in Israel and abroad.I'm sure it's fully recognised for tax purposes etc. but your description is quite an exaggeration. A lot of Israelis feel B'Tselem is too pro-Palestinian, and I'm sure there's a reason why the official government statistics often differ from B'Tselem. Regardless of that, can you show a Palestinian organisation of similar caliber dedicated to the abuse of Israeli rights by Palestinians?
Palestinian human right centers show worse statistics, but I would like to present what Israeli mentioned:
Fatalities
9.29.2000-4.20.2005 Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 3168 56
Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians 35
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 218 438
Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 219 83
Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians 10 32
Foreign citizens killed by Israeli security forces 10
Palestinians killed by Palestinians 150
**********************************************
Additional data (included in previous table)Occupied Territories Israel
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 642 1
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians 34 79
Palestinians killed during the course of an assasination 288
Palestinians who were the target of an assasination 181
Palestinians killed by Palestinians for suspected collaboration with Israel 111
***********************************************Wha t's your point? These figures don't distinguish between Palestinians involved in violence and innocent ones. Is Israel too successful in dealing with Palestinian terrorism? Would you rather see more dead Israelis?
(P.S: those Israeli civilians in Occupied Territories are ''militant settlers" , so I do not agree with the report to describe them as civilians.How would you define civilian then? What makes them "militant"?
Additionally, most of the "Foreign citizens killed by Palestinians" are those who have dual nationality.)It's funny how you can get into the small details when you want to.
From the previous statistics:
Israel killed 642 kids while Palestinian killed 79 kids.You don't see too many Israeli children participating in armed conflict (http://www.dci-pal.org/english/Display.cfm?DocId=277&CategoryId=8).
Those Israeli kids who murdered in occupied land (34) are responsibility of Israeli government-their militant parents-Palestinian (who attacked them).You've just justified murders of innocent children. What kind of human being are you? I think the death of 10 month old Shalhevet Pass is the responsibility of one man - Muhhamad Amro, the sniper who shot her, no matter what her parents did or where they live. It takes a very deranged mind to open fire on a father carrying a 10 month old baby with a stroller through the scope of a sniper rifle.
You can observe also that what Settlers (parent of those kids) murdered 35 Palestinian civilians.You justify the murders of their children, and now you're calling them murderers. You are not interested in peace. You are interested in perpetuating this conflict to feed your need for retribution.
This is documented Israeli official sources and I am sure the Palestinian human right sources double the numbers of Palestinian victims, but the truth will be somewhere between.This is a private Israeli source, not an official one. The official Israeli sources make the basic distinction between innocent Palestinians and those participating in violent conflict.
It's nice to know you're the authority deciding on what is true and where it is to be found.
I said before, I am against murdering any human, and I do not believe in wars.Just a few lines above you justified the murder of innocent children.
I feel sad for victims from both sides …. But the problem, they count the Israeli victims (as American media do) and do not count the Palestinian …You just proved how sad you feel for children of settlers. Stop your hypocricy.
This means they believe that Jews blood is superior to Palestinian blood.I fail to see how you rationaly arrive at that conclusion.
russ_watters
May12-05, 12:30 PM
This is documented Israeli official sources and I am sure the Palestinian human right sources double the numbers of Palestinian victims, but the truth will be somewhere between.
I said before, I am against murdering any human, and I do not believe in wars. I feel sad for victims from both sides …. But the problem, they count the Israeli victims (as American media do) and do not count the Palestinian …
This means they believe that Jews blood is superior to Palestinian blood. Not only is the second part simply not true, you contradicted it before you even said it! You cannot cite an Israeli source for a Palestinian death count, then say that Israelis (or Americans) do not count Palestinian victims. :rolleyes:
Informal Logic
May26-05, 05:29 PM
An interesting update:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7967481/page/2/
‘A longer view’
These subtle new pressures on Israel, U.S. officials say, reflect a desire in the Bush second term to begin to address some of the underlying causes of the hatred directed at the United States in the Islamic world, as well as some practical realities that grow out of the wars in Iraq and against al Qaida and the surging price of energy.Right.
“The longer view includes making it clear that the United States wants the Palestinian people to have a state, a democratic state, and that the United States wants the Islamic world to enjoy the fruits of democracy. We think that’s the long-term way to guarantee peace because democracies just don’t tend to attack other democracies.” Wrong.
...Ehud Barak, Israel’s former prime minister, says a new round of violence [would] exasperate a Bush administration and severely strain ties with Israel now that Washington has more pressing priorities in the Middle East since 9/11.
...after hundreds have been killed and billions of shekels lost and after an internal rift, we will no longer succeed in preserving all the large settlement blocs inside Israel. At the end of the great shortcut, we'll find ourselves withdrawing to a line that is worse than the line to which we could withdraw now. We will find ourselves on a line that is very close to the Green Line" -- a reference to the Israeli frontiers that existed before its seized the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights in 1967.And it would be bad to return to borders as originally established because why?
And it would be bad to return to borders as originally established because why?Because those borders are not agreed upon.
Any major withdrawal will have to be coordinated with the PA, but Israel and the PA cannot agree on the borders at the moment.
After the Oslo accords most Israelis lost any trust they had in the Palestinians. Not only were the PA's security forces not stopping the violence, they were actually creating much violence themselves. Today, when a city is handed over to PA control, Israel hands over a list of militants. The PA is expected to collect all weapons from them or to integrate them in their security forces and thereby become directly responsible for their actions. The aim for this is to generate some trust that would enable Israel to perform larger concessions. That is the core of the current stage of the peace process.
Ehud Barak is dispised by most Israelis, from both left and right. The left holds him responsible for the miserable state of the Labour party, the right remembers his generous offers to the Palestinians just before he lost the elections. Right now he is conducting all types of media stunts to draw some attention and pave a path to running for the elections again. I would take anything he says with great doubt.
Curious6
May28-05, 10:33 AM
Any person who takes an impartial view of the conflict can clearly see that the whole situation regarding the Palestinians as refugees is self-inflicted. Had they accepted UNGAR 181 (the UN Partition Plan) in 1947, which was a just compromise between the two parties and reasoned logically (i.e. not start the 1948 war) they would have had their own country, and (most) problems would have been solved.
Curious6
May28-05, 10:37 AM
Let's hope that Abu Mazen proves to be more honest than his predecessor and that he will be co-operative towards a just peace negotation. I'm skeptic regarding the Road Map, and I wonder what the consequences of the withdrawal from Gaza will be.
Two years ago , An Israeli army bulldozer crushed Rachel Corrie as she tried to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home.
((Friday, March 18, 2005
Corrie family seeks answers at hearing
ELLYN FERGUSON
GANNETT NEWS SERVICE
WASHINGTON -- The family of Rachel Corrie continued Thursday to press for a more thorough investigation into the 2003 death of The Evergreen State College student in the Gaza Strip. ))
Website of Rachel
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/
last minutes before death of Rachel with pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Last emial of RACHEL:
((February 7 2003
Hi friends and family, and others,
I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago. ))
You guys put it so politely, I just say: "What an idiot!"
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