No Hydrogen Formation: Conditions for a Radiation-Only Universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the hypothetical conditions that could prevent hydrogen formation in the universe, leading to a scenario where the universe consists solely of radiation. Participants delve into theoretical implications and initial conditions of the universe, touching on concepts from cosmology and particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that permanent high temperatures could prevent hydrogen formation, implying no expansion of the universe.
  • There is speculation about the inevitability of hydrogen formation under the big bang conditions, which include extremely high energy density and small volume.
  • Questions are raised regarding the nature of initial conditions in the universe and whether they were inevitable or contingent.
  • Some participants suggest that if matter and antimatter were perfectly symmetric and equal in abundance, all matter could annihilate, leaving only radiation.
  • Others introduce the idea that varying initial conditions, such as a slower expansion rate and higher density, could lead to the formation of heavier elements instead of hydrogen.
  • There is a discussion about the assumptions underlying the laws of physics and the implications of not being able to observe the entire universe, which raises questions about the excess of matter over antimatter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the conditions necessary for hydrogen formation and the implications of those conditions. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the inevitability of hydrogen or the nature of initial conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of current understanding regarding the initial conditions of the universe and the speculative nature of their inquiries. The discussion includes unresolved questions about the nature of elementary particles and the assumptions made about physical laws.

wolram
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AFAIK hydrogen was one of the first elements in our universe, i came to
wonder, what conditions would prevent hydrogen from forming, and our
universe consisting of only radiation?
 
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permanent high temperature? which would mean no expansion of the universe I suppose.
 
wolram said:
AFAIK hydrogen was one of the first elements in our universe, i came to
wonder, what conditions would prevent hydrogen from forming, and our
universe consisting of only radiation?
That question may never be answered.

One could just as well ask, why are the elementary particles the size that they are? Why is the charge what it is? and so on.

What one may ask is - how and why were the initial conditions of the universe (or all of existence), and all of matter and energy, and for that matter time, established?
 
Astronuc said:
That question may never be answered.

One could just as well ask, why are the elementary particles the size that they are? Why is the charge what it is? and so on.

What one may ask is - how and why were the initial conditions of the universe (or all of existence), and all of matter and energy, and for that matter time, established?
If there are two ways to ask a question i always pick the wrong one :smile:
But were the conditions for hydrogen inevitable in our universe?
 
If you start with the big bang conditions - extremely small volume and extremely high energy density, then hydrogen formation (or more specifically quark-antiquark and electron-positron pair production) is inevitable, assuming that the laws of physics are inevitable. A still open question is how did the excess of matter over antimatter come about.
 
mathman said:
If you start with the big bang conditions -
But what preceeded the Big Bang? What were the precursors? That question will never be answered.

mathman said:
. . . assuming that the laws of physics are inevitable. A still open question is how did the excess of matter over antimatter come about.
That's a BIG assumption. Yes, it is an open question. But how do we know that there is an excess of matter over antimatter. We cannot see the entire universe. We may be way off center.
 
wolram said:
AFAIK hydrogen was one of the first elements in our universe, i came to
wonder, what conditions would prevent hydrogen from forming, and our
universe consisting of only radiation?

There are answers to the first part of the question that don't lead to the second. For example, if the rate of the expansion of the universe were much slower and the density much higher, then nucleosynthesis could have led only to the formation of elements much heavier than hydrogen. There are a ton of other initial conditions one could contrive that would lead to a lack of hydrogen. Mostly notably, if matter and antimatter were exactly symmetric and in equal abundance, then all matter would annihilate and you'd be left only with radiation. Another easy way would be to simply start without any baryons.
 
SpaceTiger said:
There are answers to the first part of the question that don't lead to the second.
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if Planck's Constant was 5, but I don't think I'd be around to witness it.
 

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