US needs an official language?

[honestrosewater]

There's a new bill in the House, H. R. 997; English Language Unity Act of 2005 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.997:):
To declare English as the official language of the United States, to establish a uniform English language rule for naturalization, and to avoid misconstructions of the English language texts of the laws of the United States, pursuant to Congress's powers to provide for the general welfare of the United States and to establish a uniform rule of naturalization under article I, section 8, of the Constitution.Why does the US need an official language? And why have only one?

BTW, the bill is really short and easy (1-4 minutes).

[Smurf]

This will harm the development of every language in the Country, including English.

[honestrosewater]

Why does anything they mention require English to be made the official language? Just give some money to ESOL programs.
My initial suspicion is that this will just be used to tell non-English-speakers that they're doing something wrong and aren't welcome here.

[hypatia]

I don't think a need to be able to read and understand the constitution in english should be required. As long as they can express the content to a interpreter.

[Pengwuino]

This will harm the development of every language in the Country, including English.

Incorrect. Other nations have official national languages without any detrimental effects.

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II. This move will only help Americans.

[outsider]

Incorrect. Other nations have official national languages without any detrimental effects.

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II. This move will only help Americans.
But english has been dominant... why make official something that is clearly the choice? If spanish was declared the official language, I think english would still be dominant... also, although english is declared the official language, this will not stop other cultures from communicating in their own language. So to do this is really pointless IMO.

[Smurf]

Incorrect. Other nations have official national languages without any detrimental effects.

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II. This move will only help Americans.
This legislature won't stop spanish being integrated into your city. On top of that, why should they want to? I'm kind of offended that you think doing this will "help americans", there's nothing wrong with Spanish.

[The Smoking Man]

Incorrect. Other nations have official national languages without any detrimental effects.

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II. This move will only help Americans.Ask a Canadian what they think of TWO official languages!

Mind you most people think there is only one version of Chinese ... There are hundreds however Putonghua is the 'National Language' (Beijing Dialect or Mandarin)

The Philippines has one official language only spoken by the minority as a mother tongue... tagalog. Visayan or Bisaya is spoken by the majority 60% but missed out on the official status because the capital of Manila is Tagalog speaking. (There are hundreds more)

Often, the declaration of an 'official' language is detramental in internal politics.

[TRCSF]

I think Spanish has a right to be an official US language just as much as French in Canada.

This bill strikes me as race baiting.

[Pengwuino]

But english has been dominant... why make official something that is clearly the choice? If spanish was declared the official language, I think english would still be dominant... also, although english is declared the official language, this will not stop other cultures from communicating in their own language. So to do this is really pointless IMO.

Its not that I care to know what people are telling eachother... im just rather sick of walking into a 7-11 or a supermarket and not knowing what hte hell half the products are because the packaging is written in spanish. Not english + spanish... just spanish. 100% spanish. And no, these are not mexican supermarkets or anything logical like that.

If I ever tried to kill myself with some McDonalds food more often, I could show you the cup written entirely in spanish.

[Pengwuino]

This legislature won't stop spanish being integrated into your city. On top of that, why should they want to? I'm kind of offended that you think doing this will "help americans", there's nothing wrong with Spanish.

Ha, your offended. Good one smurf *gives you a hug*.... i like your style.

It shouldn't matter what a minority wants, it should be what the majority wants and at the very least, the majority doesnt want to walk into a city thinking they accidently left the country. I at least want to know what the hell im buying at the store. I want McDonalds workers to know english. This is like going to France and asking "hey what gives, why isnt everyone speaking english and why isnt everything written in english".

[arildno]

In Norway, we have 4 official languages.
If a citizen is over some matter in correspondence with some branch of the government, she has the right to get her answers back in the same official language as the one she wrote in.
All official documents should in principle be available in all 4 languages, although this is rarely the case with respect to the two Sami official languages.

I don't really see what's the problem of calling some of the languages in a country for official, and I'm surprised that english isn't the official language in the US.

[Smurf]

This is like going to France and asking "hey what gives, why isnt everyone speaking english and why isnt everything written in english".
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I take it you've never spent much time in France?

[Smurf]

im just rather sick of walking into a 7-11 or a supermarket and not knowing what hte hell half the products are because the packaging is written in spanish.It shouldn't matter what a minority wants, it should be what the majority wants and at the very least, the majority doesnt want to walk into a city thinking they accidently left the country.
The problem with this is, if the majority truely cared about 7-11 products all being in spanish, they could easily get 7-11 to change their policy towards it, since 7-11 is trying to sell to the most people possible. So, is your example false, or is you're insistance that you are part of the majority false? Or are the basic laws of economics false? (i.e. something else is the problem?)

[Smurf]

In Norway, we have 4 official languages.
If a citizen is over some matter in correspondence with some branch of the government, she has the right to get her answers back in the same official language as the one she wrote in.
All official documents should in principle be available in all 4 languages, although this is rarely the case with respect to the two Sami official languages.
In Canada you have the right to demand any government file/correspondant/anything be in French or English, anywhere, anytime, just by saying so. 22 minutes has made this a trademark joke of theirs.

[Smurf]

Ha, your offended. Good one smurf *gives you a hug*.... i like your style.
I didn't mean I was insulted, it just bothers me whenever someone implies that a language (or any cultural aspect) is inferior to theirs. It's so racist.

[honestrosewater]

Well, I at least am glad that it does matter what the minority wants.

Pengwuino, are you sure you're in the majority where you live? Do you expect the government to tell McDonalds that they must use English in their packaging?

The problems with calling one language official:
What's the point??
A quick search: Arizona high court finds English-only law unconstitutional (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=9051&SearchString='''''''official_language''''''')
Oklahoma high court: English-only plan is unconstitutional (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org//news.aspx?id=4059&SearchString=''official_language'')
There was a battle over the English-only law in Alaska, but I can't find it now.
If you want to know what the potential pitfalls are, just look at this section:
Sec. 165. Rules of construction

`Nothing in this chapter shall be construed--

`(1) to prohibit a Member of Congress or any officer or agent of the Federal Government, while performing official functions, from communicating unofficially through any medium with another person in a language other than English (as long as official functions are performed in English);

`(2) to limit the preservation or use of Native Alaskan or Native American languages (as defined in the Native American Languages Act);

`(3) to disparage any language or to discourage any person from learning or using a language; or

`(4) to be inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States.I'm not sure what saying this actually does, but it doesn't matter what they say if the law ends up having a discriminatory effect.

[Art]

I'm not sure why they want to convert the population of America to a new language. Why not use one of the languages already in use? :biggrin: Like that funny one that has an affinity for 'z's and words like center, nite, color, favorite, honor etc. :rofl:

Apart from that seeing as how America is composed of immigrants from practically every nation of the world I do not see why there should be one official language unless the idea is to relegate others to some kind of second class, not really american, status.

[hitssquad]

it doesn't matter what they say if the law ends up having a discriminatory effect.Why would its discriminatory status be relevant?

[honestrosewater]

Why would its discriminatory status be relevant?Oh, woops, I can't imagne how it would. I wasn't thinking of employment but that it would most likely impact protected groups (ethnicity, national origin).
___

Does it sound like voting counts as an official function?
"the term `official' refers to any function that (i) binds the Government, (ii) is required by law, or (iii) is otherwise subject to scrutiny by either the press or the public."

[loseyourname]

Count me as one of those who doesn't really see how having an official national language hurts anything, but I do think that Texas and California at least should be officially bilingual, as they were originally Spanish possessions, then part of Mexico, and even today have as many Spanish speakers as English speakers.

[russ_watters]

But english has been dominant... why make official something that is clearly the choice? MONEY. We spend a lot of money on bilingual education, publications, government forms, signs, etc.

The government does some crazy things when it comes to "public accomodation" and avoidance of discrimination. If you are deaf, for example, and need a sign language interpreter to follow you around at school, the government will provide you with one. If you are somehow "differently abled" and your city has a government-run mass transit system, they are required to do pretty much whatever is necessary to accomodate you - and that includes sending a car to your house to pick you up and drive you to your destiniation.

Similarly, making Spanish an "official" language would require every class in public school to have a taught-in-Spanish equivalent.

[SOS2008]

I remember debating this when California had a prop in the 80s? -- I can't recall now if it was to make English the official language or Spanish the second language. Many states already have English as the official language.

This country is a melting pot and has always welcomed immigrants. I don't think Americans want this to change. However, originally when immigrants came through Ellis Island they would say the pledge of allegiance in English with tears of joy. The new immigrants should be able to preserve their culture, but they should view themselves as Americans. Speaking a common language is the first step to homogeneity and unity.

Because of many factors, such as technology (radio/TV stations, if you speak Spanish press 2, etc.) when they live in their ethnic areas they are becoming extremely isolated and can live with ease and never learn English. On the news the other evening, a mother was taking an English class because otherwise she couldn't help her children with their homework. Along this line is the issue of social advancement. Statistics show that those who learn English achieve a higher standard of living. Want to talk about discrimination and racism? Encourage these people to stay isolated and poor.

Even the majority of certain ethnic populations, such as Hispanic citizens are very concerned about the flood of immigrants crossing the border that is overwhelming every aspect of American society (and at a great cost to tax payers). I don't know if this particular legislation will achieve anything, but I do know that this topic has been being debated for years, and with recent population explosions from the south (encouraged by Mexican President Fox to take back the land the U.S. stole--I've been told I better learn Spanish--there is actually hostility in the mix now), terrorist cells (e.g., recent bombings in Britain), this is why we are seeing this issue reemerge as a hot topic.

I believe we need a common language and that citizens should be proud to be American, and the only exception for which tax dollars should be devoted to multiple languages is for emergency scenarios.

[outsider]

Ha, your offended. Good one smurf *gives you a hug*.... i like your style.

It shouldn't matter what a minority wants, it should be what the majority wants and at the very least, the majority doesnt want to walk into a city thinking they accidently left the country. I at least want to know what the hell im buying at the store. I want McDonalds workers to know english. This is like going to France and asking "hey what gives, why isnt everyone speaking english and why isnt everything written in english".
I think that what you are upset about is an issue with the corporations who make the packaging and hire the people... they are marketing to a specific demograph due to location... this is wrong too... but I don't know what would happen even if there was an official language... you could let them know that they are not speaking the official language and they have the freedom to tell you to "take a hike" in their language. What's a guy to do? I see your dilemma, but legislation will not change what people do in some cases.

who is going to force people to speak a language? who is going to teach to people who don't want to learn?

there will always be resistance... for those who seek to have greater success in life, let the statistics convince them to speak english... afterall, it is the international language :rolleyes:

[outsider]

I believe we need a common language and that citizens should be proud to be American, and the only exception for which tax dollars should be devoted to multiple languages is for emergency scenarios.
agreed, but corporations have a say in this... when they cater to a market and ignore mine, I take a hint... and keep my money. America is free to let people make these choices and so it really isn't up to the law...

street signs can be bilingual in certain areas... but who is going to make jonny's deli change his signs from italian to english? It's his store and he wants to maintain a feeling of the old country... he doesn't want korean, chinese, japanese, or any asian races in his store... they can come, but he doesn't have to make them feel welcome because the store is really for true italians... how would legislation punish jonny?

[TRCSF]

Its not that I care to know what people are telling eachother... im just rather sick of walking into a 7-11 or a supermarket and not knowing what hte hell half the products are because the packaging is written in spanish. Not english + spanish... just spanish. 100% spanish. And no, these are not mexican supermarkets or anything logical like that.

If I ever tried to kill myself with some McDonalds food more often, I could show you the cup written entirely in spanish.


Well then the simple solution would be to learn spanish. I don't know about you, but most competent adults are able to figure out the contents of a package in the Mexican aisle of their supermarket based on the picture on the packaging and the minor spanish vocabulary that every American has, such as "taco."

[Moonbear]

I think I'll vote indifferent on this one. Pretty much all business in the US is done in English anyway. Whether or not some cater to speakers of other languages is their choice and would always remain their choice, even if English were made the "official" language. There are areas where Spanish is the predominant language, and that won't change by making English the official language, it would just mean that all signs, documents, etc. would have to include English (they could still have other languages on them, but there would be no law requiring it).

I think it's good to have a common language for communication. However, just as my experiences in Quebec were that there are varying degrees of English communication among native-French speakers even in a country in which English is one of the official languages, we can't expect that just because people are required to use English in official communication that it would lead to a sudden improvement in their writing skills or to erase their accents.

I think the costs would be a bit of a wash-out. On one hand, it could save money by not having to translate everything into 6 different languages. On the other hand, it could cost more money to ensure immigrants had access to English classes to learn the official language, or English speakers could demand higher wages than non-English speakers, even in areas where the predominant language isn't English.

I guess, overall, I'm indifferent because I don't think it would really change much about how things are currently done. Having an official language doesn't mean people have to stop using other languages, it just means if requested, they need to use the official language with those who prefer it. It means Pengwuino can walk into the corner Bodega and ask the clerk to conduct the transaction in English, but the clerk can continue to speak Spanish to all his/her Spanish-speaking customers.

[outsider]

I think I'll vote indifferent on this one. Pretty much all business in the US is done in English anyway. Whether or not some cater to speakers of other languages is their choice and would always remain their choice, even if English were made the "official" language. There are areas where Spanish is the predominant language, and that won't change by making English the official language, it would just mean that all signs, documents, etc. would have to include English (they could still have other languages on them, but there would be no law requiring it).

(edit)...

I guess, overall, I'm indifferent because I don't think it would really change much about how things are currently done. Having an official language doesn't mean people have to stop using other languages, it just means if requested, they need to use the official language with those who prefer it. It means Pengwuino can walk into the corner Bodega and ask the clerk to conduct the transaction in English, but the clerk can continue to speak Spanish to all his/her Spanish-speaking customers.
It makes sense to any good business person to cater to as many customers as possible. In Hong Kong (previously a British Colony), there are stores that had english speaking and some that didn't. Some restaurants have menus exclusively in Chinese... however, this is a business decision... and if I went into one of these stores, I simply work with them to communicate as clearly, it was not their primary language.

I am also indifferent because I don't see the point... but if there are people passionate enough about it, so be it. Have it your way. o:)

[Moonbear]

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II.
Hmm...funny, since you live in CA, it was probably part of Mexico before it ever became part of the US. Perhaps the Spanish-speaking Mexicans have more of an argument against the English take-over of their former territory? :wink:

This move will only help Americans.
In what way? I've expressed that I don't think it will really help or hurt much. It might change a few things, but I think the positives and negatives will likely balance out. Or do you not consider immigrants from non-English speaking countries to be worthy of American citizenship? It's hard to see your statement being taken any other way. I wonder what your ancestry is? Have your ancestors all come from English speaking countries and never had to face the challenge of coming to a new country and needing to learn a new language? And if that's the case, why didn't they learn the language of those whose land they took over, why aren't we all speaking one of the Native American languages as the official language? This country was initially inhabited by the Native Americans, and then colonized by the British, French and Spanish. I see no reason why one of those should be exalted above all others as more "American." I wouldn't object to having French and Spanish added as official languages for historic reasons. I'd have a little trouble with including Native American languages simply because there are so many dialects and there are not enough members of the population who still speak these languages fluently enough to provide the necessary translators for all the businesses that would need them. That's a shame, because they really should receive recognition in this country, but just not practical.

Of course that is the way it has worked all over the world throughout time, that invaders enforce their language as the only official language in order to oppress the invaded. Perhaps that is the message you intended to convey, that non-English speakers should be oppressed and prevented from speaking their native language? You are aware that would not be the outcome of having an official language in the U.S., are you not?

[Moonbear]

It makes sense to any good business person to cater to as many customers as possible. In Hong Kong (previously a British Colony), there are stores that had english speaking and some that didn't. Some restaurants have menus exclusively in Chinese... however, this is a business decision... and if I went into one of these stores, I simply work with them to communicate as clearly, it was not their primary language.
Yes, that's currently how things stand, and I have no problem with it. If I go into a store and am for some reason entirely unable to communicate with the person working there, well, then they will lose my business and that's a risk they can choose to take. I can't say I've ever run into that problem anywhere in the U.S., even in neighborhoods that are primarily Hispanic or Chinese populations, with the exception of the occassional English-speaking clerk who is simply dumb as a doorknob. When I worked as a clerk in high school, I was even able to communicate with deaf customers without knowing any sign language.

I even traveled to Poland without knowing more than a few words in Polish. It was challenging to not speak the language at all, but somehow I always managed to complete the necessary transactions with a lot of pointing and liberal use of "thank you" in Polish to let them know I appreciated their patience with me. Though, my meals in restaurants tended to be surprises since I had no idea what I was ordering. :biggrin: As long as you don't mind the adventure, it can be done.

[honestrosewater]

The law doesn't apply to people's interactions with a clerk at 7-11. It does apply to citizens' interactions with their government.

This is not an illegal immigration bill, BTW.

Why were those courts wrong to find those state's English-only laws unconstitutional?

Protecting rights costs money? What a waste.

It might mean that the ballots for next year's election won't be available in any language other than English (Edit: Sorry, accomodations required for people with disabilities excepted). Would no one have a problem with that? Just tough luck for those who can't learn English well enough in the meantime. ??

A representative's communication with their constituents is official business. See this part:
`Nothing in this chapter shall be construed--

`(1) to prohibit a Member of Congress or any officer or agent of the Federal Government, while performing official functions, from communicating unofficially through any medium with another person in a language other than English (as long as official functions are performed in English)Have a problem and want any official help from your representatives? Sure, that's your right. What? You don't speak English? Too bad. This is America, land of English-only speakers. Maybe you didn't see the sign:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the English-only golden door.

Yes, it upsets me. :grumpy:

[honestrosewater]

I think I'll vote indifferent on this one. Pretty much all business in the US is done in English anyway. Whether or not some cater to speakers of other languages is their choice and would always remain their choice, even if English were made the "official" language.No choice - English only.
`(a) Official Functions- The official functions of the Government of the United States shall be conducted in English.

`(b) Scope- For the purposes of this section, the term `United States' means the several States and the District of Columbia, and the term `official' refers to any function that (i) binds the Government, (ii) is required by law, or (iii) is otherwise subject to scrutiny by either the press or the public.

`(c) Practical Effect- This section shall apply to all laws, public proceedings, regulations, publications, orders, actions, programs, and policies,Sure, any representative can explain in any language that all official business must be done in English.

[loseyourname]

What are you concerned about with this 'representative' thing? That you'll write a letter to your senator in Swahili and he will no longer employ a translator? Are letters from constituents actually considered "official" business?

Also, are you sure this applies to ballots? It says above that it refers to the District of Columbia and all the states. Ballots are published by county governments - are they subject to this as well? If anything, this bill doesn't seem to give enough clarification.

Edit: If this law actually does restrict the printing of ballots to one language, it will be found unconstitutional and stricken from the books. There really isn't anything to worry about there.

[outsider]

government interactions in english only makes sense... street signs and official documents... sure...

other areas beyond official business with the government are basically uncontrollable...

[moose]

Incorrect. Other nations have official national languages without any detrimental effects.

Im glad this is being put out there. I've lived in the United States my entire life and my city has been gradually turning into Mexico Part II. This move will only help Americans.

So true. Because of me living in Arizona, I also feel the horrid effects of being Mexico Part III(gotta count off somehow, right?). I once saw a commercial where some people were at a restaurant talking to each other, they order their food, and one of them gets the wrong item, and says to his friend "these people should really learn the language before coming here to serve us, you know?" and his friend is all offended and stuff. WTF, in any other country than the US, a person who doesnt know their language simply wont get a job at a McDonalds, and it's not a bad thing at all. It means the person is underqualified.

[hitssquad]

If this law actually does restrict the printing of ballots to one language, it will be found unconstitutionalAccording to which part of the constitution?

[honestrosewater]

What are you concerned about with this 'representative' thing? That you'll write a letter to your senator in Swahili and he will no longer employ a translator? Are letters from constituents actually considered "official" business?I thought so, but the only information I can find now is that this kind of communciation is usually considered confidential. So I may have been wrong.
Also, are you sure this applies to ballots? It says above that it refers to the District of Columbia and all the states. Ballots are published by county governments - are they subject to this as well? If anything, this bill doesn't seem to give enough clarification.No, I'm not sure - I asked about this and no one replied - that's why I said 'might'.
The bill may also be changed as it goes through the process, before it's voted on.
Edit: If this law actually does restrict the printing of ballots to one language, it will be found unconstitutional and stricken from the books. There really isn't anything to worry about there.But shouldn't that be considered before it becomes law? I don't think it's acceptable for Congress to just pass laws indiscriminately and let the courts decide whether the laws are actually allowed - and try to fix what harm is done in the meantime.

[Moonbear]

No choice - English only.
No, there is always choice. You can have all the languages you want, it means English must be one of them. When's the last time you heard of Congress holding it's sessions in another language other than English anyway? Or the last time you saw a Supreme Court opinion written in Spanish or French? Or even a Presidential debate conducted in a language other than English? Official functions are already all done in English in the U.S. The law does not state that a translation can't be provided if someone wants to provide it.

Sure, any representative can explain in any language that all official business must be done in English.
Have you been to Canada recently? They have two official languages, French and English. I don't see them having any problems with that.

Actually, without an official language, I suppose if Congress decided to write up legislation in ancient sanskrit, they'd be free to do so, and nothing would require they translate it into any modern language if they didn't feel like it.

[honestrosewater]

According to which part of the constitution?The good part. :biggrin: If you're asking because you're truly interested, http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/browse.html is a great resource. There's even a list of Acts of Congress Held Unconstitutional in Whole or in Part by the Supreme Court of the United States (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/acts.html) (with explanations).

Edit: Adding to some things in post #40... from the Lau v. Nichols decision:
The failure of the San Francisco school system to provide English language instruction to approximately 1,800 students of Chinese ancestry who do not speak English, or to provide them with other adequate instructional procedures, denies them a meaningful opportunity to participate in the public educational program and thus violates 601 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which bans discrimination based "on the ground of race, color, or national origin," in "any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance," and the implementing regulations of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. Pp. 565-569

...

We do not reach the Equal Protection Clause argument which has been advanced but rely solely on 601 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. 2000d, to reverse the Court of Appeals.

- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=414&invol=563So I'm guessing either the Civil Rights Act or the Fifteenth, Fourteenth, or Fifth Amendment. Whoever is responsible for the ballots must fall under one of these.? Though the Fifth Amendment has no equal protection clause, SCOTUS decided in Bolling v. Sharpe that the federal government cannot hold itself to a lower standard than it holds the states:
(a) Though the Fifth Amendment does not contain an equal protection clause, as does the Fourteenth Amendment which applies only to the States, the concepts of equal protection and due process are not mutually exclusive. P. 499.

(b) Discrimination may be so unjustifiable as to be violative of due process. P. 499.

...

(d) In view of this Court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education, ante, p. 483, that the Constitution prohibits the States from maintaining racially segregated public schools, it would be unthinkable that the same Constitution would impose a lesser duty on the Federal Government.

- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=347&invol=497

[honestrosewater]

No, there is always choice.Geez, I really wasn't thinking clearly last night. Talking about rights tends to upset me, maybe even make me a bit paranoid. I'm sorry. You're right, it doesn't say English only. The other laws were referred to as English-only, and I guess I just grouped them all together. However, it still isn't clear whether they intended your interpretation or the English only one.
You can have all the languages you want, it means English must be one of them. When's the last time you heard of Congress holding it's sessions in another language other than English anyway? Or the last time you saw a Supreme Court opinion written in Spanish or French? Or even a Presidential debate conducted in a language other than English? Official functions are already all done in English in the U.S. The law does not state that a translation can't be provided if someone wants to provide it.So what is the point of adopting the law? Adopting laws just for the heck of it is at worst wasteful and at best senseless. Why do we need this law?
Have you been to Canada recently? They have two official languages, French and English. I don't see them having any problems with that.I've never been outside of the US. Are their laws the same though? Some official language laws are merely symbolic.
Actually, without an official language, I suppose if Congress decided to write up legislation in ancient sanskrit, they'd be free to do so, and nothing would require they translate it into any modern language if they didn't feel like it.I couldn't find a law specifically about languages in general, presumably because there's been no reason for such a law (since most business is already conducted in English), but there are laws regarding meaningful access for 'limited English proficient' (LEP) individuals:
Q. What are the relevant laws concerning language access for LEP individuals?

A. Federal laws particularly applicable to language access include Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Title VI regulations, prohibiting discrimination based on national origin, and Executive Order 13166 issued in 2000. Many individual federal programs, states, and localities also have provisions requiring language services for LEP individuals.

Q. What is Executive Order 13166?

A. An Executive Order is an order given by the President to federal agencies. The LEP Executive Order (Executive Order 13166) says that people who are LEP should have meaningful access to federally conducted and federally funded programs and activities.

- http://www.lep.gov/faq.htmlThe United States Supreme Court in Lau v. Nichols (1974) stated that one type of national origin discrimination is discrimination based on a person’s inability to speak, read, write, or understand English.

- http://www.fec.gov/pages/lepaccessplan.html

I don't think we need this law in order to ensure that English speakers will have access to the information that they are already entitled to. The same or similar laws that protect non-English-speakers should also protect English speakers.

[Smurf]

Have you been to Canada recently? They have two official languages, French and English. I don't see them having any problems with that.
HA! You must not be looking hard enough :biggrin:

[The Smoking Man]

HA! You must not be looking hard enough :biggrin:Tell him to hang an English sign outside of a business in Quebec and see what happens. :surprised

[misskitty]

Smurf, does Canada have more than 2 official languages? Is that what you were getting at with "you must not be looking hard enough"?

~Kitty

[iansmith]

Canada has only two official language but each province have their own status. What it means is that any the federal government has to communicate in english or french. Also, all labeling goods are bilingual. This also allow people speaking french or english as their first languague to have education in their first language.

Province have different statues, Quebec is french only province, New-brunswick is billingual and the rest is english only. Most official provincial will have bilingual service but it always depends on the person serving you.

Tell him to hang an English sign outside of a business in Quebec and see what happens.

You are allowed to have an english sign but it has to have french on it.

[Curious6]

The reality is that the United States necessitates a law which proclaims English as its official language in order to preserve cultural unity and facilitate the assimilation of the substantial wave of Hispanic immigrants that have reached the country since the 1960's.

[honestrosewater]

You are allowed to have an english sign but it has to have french on it.Are you joking, or is that true? A private business?
The reality is that the United States necessitates a law which proclaims English as its official language in order to preserve cultural unity and facilitate the assimilation of the substantial wave of Hispanic immigrants that have reached the country since the 1960's.How is havng an official language going to accomplish this?

What is the difference between assimilation and suppression?

[hitssquad]

What is the difference between assimilation and suppression?Suppression of undesirable traits is one of the properties of assimilation. The other property is enhancement of desirable traits.

[Smurf]

Smurf, does Canada have more than 2 official languages? Is that what you were getting at with "you must not be looking hard enough"?No, I mean it's not completely without problems.
Are you joking, or is that true? A private business? Completely true, in Quebec.
What is the difference between assimilation and suppression?
One is borg-ish the other is hitler-ish.

[loseyourname]

Suppression of undesirable traits is one of the properties of assimilation. The other property is enhancement of desirable traits.

Assimilation does not connote any particular value of the traits being suppressed or enhanced. The traits suppressed are simply the traits that make one group different from the other, and the traits enhanced are the traits that make them similar. Unless you're saying homogeneity is desirable in and of itself, I don't see how an evaluative judgement of the particular traits is implied in the discriminatory process employed.

[loseyourname]

According to which part of the constitution?

Actually, I suppose the printing of ballots in English only is not unconstitutional, but if the counties were to do so, they would have to provide a translator. Otherwise, there is a de facto qualification process for who is allowed to vote (akin to the old literacy tests designed to disfranchise blacks in the south), which is not in accord with the articles and amendments pertaining to who is allowed to vote, which at this point is any citizen above the age of 18 who is not a felon. There is no requirement that one must be able to read English or even that one must be able to read at all.

[The Smoking Man]

Canada has only two official language but each province have their own status. What it means is that any the federal government has to communicate in english or french. Also, all labeling goods are bilingual. This also allow people speaking french or english as their first languague to have education in their first language.

Province have different statues, Quebec is french only province, New-brunswick is billingual and the rest is english only. Most official provincial will have bilingual service but it always depends on the person serving you.



You are allowed to have an english sign but it has to have french on it.
Yeah ... Sure you are ... Ask about if that business happens to be a flower shop that has been there for a hundred years.

That place had the wondows blown out with a shotgun.

You also get stupid things like the guy in Alberta who seemed to have absolutely NO problem surviving in a community there for most of his life in English. Then ... When he was done for tax evasion ... elected to have his trial for tax evasion in French only meaning they had to move a complete French courtroom to his town at a cost of $2 million so the government could recover $100,000.

Then there is the stated preference for government employees who are bilingual. Well it appears that all French is not the same because of two people who are bilingual going for the same job the French person who learned English will get the job and not the English who aquired French.

Why? --- The schools of Canada teach Parisian French and not Quebecoise.

Most of the people who were brought up in Canada don't speak Parisian French.

Therefore, the native Quebecoise speaker gets the job because they are more qualified.

[iansmith]

Yeah ... Sure you are ... Ask about if that business happens to be a flower shop that has been there for a hundred years.

That place had the wondows blown out with a shotgun.

That is the work of extremist and terrorrist. By law you are allows to have any languague on sign as long as french is dominant.


You also get stupid things like the guy in Alberta who seemed to have absolutely NO problem surviving in a community there for most of his life in English. Then ... When he was done for tax evasion ... elected to have his trial for tax evasion in French only meaning they had to move a complete French courtroom to his town at a cost of $2 million so the government could recover $100,000.

You do seem to understand that some people can function in a second language, yet they do not master this language. This put them at a disadvantage when sign contract or are in court because native speaker have a certain understanding of the fine details of the language

Also some people will leave in very closed communities where french is major languague but are surronded by english majority. Or vice-versa. I seen people from the west-island of montreal that lived there for more than 60 years but could not speak a word of french. Yet they are surrounded by french speaking people.

Then there is the stated preference for government employees who are bilingual. Well it appears that all French is not the same because of two people who are bilingual going for the same job the French person who learned English will get the job and not the English who aquired French.

Why? --- The schools of Canada teach Parisian French and not Quebecoise.

Most of the people who were brought up in Canada don't speak Parisian French.

Therefore, the native Quebecoise speaker gets the job because they are more qualified.

The problem here is that you should not rely on the school system to teach you another language. The english thaught in Quebec is as bad as the french taught in other province. The difference is that people in Quebec go outside the province to learn english. You also have to expose yourself to the language and pratice it to maintain a certain level of expertise. A language can be lost quite rapidly if you do not speak it on a regular basis.

[The Smoking Man]

That is the work of extremist and terrorrist. By law you are allows to have any languague on sign as long as french is dominant.The observation was that 'there was no trouble in Canada based on having two languages'.

I am glad to see that you have agreed with me and explained that having two 'official languages' has indeed given Canada terrorists.

You do seem to understand that some people can function in a second language, yet they do not master this language. This put them at a disadvantage when sign contract or are in court because native speaker have a certain understanding of the fine details of the language So you agree that the government was correct in spending $2 million to recover $100 thousand in back taxes?

This is not a problem to you? Again, you have just proved to our fiscally minded bretheren to the south that there are some really nasty problems but you are just too messed up to realize it.
Also some people will leave in very closed communities where french is major languague but are surronded by english majority. Or vice-versa. I seen people from the west-island of montreal that lived there for more than 60 years but could not speak a word of french. Yet they are surrounded by french speaking people.This man lived in a community that had 7 french speakers. He and his wife and 5 children who did not qualify as great enough of a population to create a French School. His children were educated in English, he signed contracts in English, he had an English lawyer, he purchased his land in English and he banks in English.
The problem here is that you should not rely on the school system to teach you another language. The english thaught in Quebec is as bad as the french taught in other province. The difference is that people in Quebec go outside the province to learn english. You also have to expose yourself to the language and pratice it to maintain a certain level of expertise. A language can be lost quite rapidly if you do not speak it on a regular basis.Well, thanks for that. Next time I consider employment with the Canadian government, I'll remember that I have to moved to Quebec for 10 years and aquire my language skills.

The only problem with that is the guy looking at my CV will not have the same opinion of my language skills because 'living in a province for 10 years' does not give me an academic credit and he will assume I only speak Parisian French and I won't even get called for an interview since I am not a NATIVE speaker of Quebecoise.

You'll also find that most Quebecoise speakers do NOT leave the province to learn English. They simply go to night school. Our language appears in text books. Quebecoise does not because it is a gutteral dialect of French that even the real French have no respect for since it is considered an abomination and affront to the national language of France.

[hitssquad]

the articles and amendments pertaining to who is allowed to vote, which at this point is any citizen above the age of 18 who is not a felon.Nothing in the United States Constitution grants any citizen the right to vote.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion)

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion)

"It may be surprising that in the US citizens technically lack a constitutional right to vote."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage#Suffrage_today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage#Suffrage_today)

[Smurf]

excuse me while I burst into hysterical laughter briefly

[Smurf]

even the real French have no respect for since it is considered an abomination and affront to the national language of France.
In my experience it's viewed more with apathetic humour than any hostile feelings.

hehe, they'd still rather talk to a quebecy than a brit.

[The Smoking Man]

excuse me while I burst into hysterical laughter briefly
Something funny here you ... you ..... ANGLOFONE!?

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!!!

(Monty Python French reference)

[Smurf]

Are you suggesting coconuts MIGRATE?

[The Smoking Man]

In my experience it's viewed more with apathetic humour than any hostile feelings.

hehe, they'd still rather talk to a quebecy than a brit.Understandable ... the Brit would just as soon shoot at them.

The Quebecers are like the little yappy dog from those cartoons bouncing around at the heels of the big ferocious dog.

Must be the potine. :yuck:

[The Smoking Man]

Are you suggesting coconuts MIGRATE?Two African swallows and a bit of string.

[Smurf]

I think poutine is spelled with a 'u'

[Smurf]

Two African swallows and a bit of string.
We don't have a king. We're an autonomous collective as part of an anarcho-syndicalist commune. (my favorite part)

[The Smoking Man]

I think poutine is spelled with a 'u'You can spell in French!?:eek:

I have also heard two theories about this stuff ... The fries with cheese curds seems to be a recent development.

When I was a kid, poutine was French White Lightning ... squeeze ... Moonshine.
:rofl:

[Ivan Seeking]

The reality is that the United States necessitates a law which proclaims English as its official language in order to preserve cultural unity and facilitate the assimilation of the substantial wave of Hispanic immigrants that have reached the country since the 1960's.

In addition to growing up with Mexicans, a Mexican girl and I dated and got quite serious for a time. Many Mexican immigrants resent those who refuse to assimilate into this culture. They see the need to assimilate and the problems caused when people don't learn the language.

[Smurf]

You can spell in French!?*holds up french citizenship card* You think they just give these out to anyone?

[The Smoking Man]

In addition to growing up with Mexicans, a Mexican girl and I dated and got quite serious for a time. Many Mexican immigrants resent those who refuse to assimilate into this culture. They see the need to assimilate and the problems caused when people don't learn the language.So what do you think they will do with Louisiana if they push this through?

I goronteeee, you will have der problems der eh.

The Amish may get a tad p!ssed too.

But then you could ask him if they can prove genetic dispositions ... can they speak Yiddish or Hebrew? :smug:

[Smurf]

The Amish may get a tad p!ssed too.
.... :confused: ... SO? What are the amish gonna do?!

[The Smoking Man]

.... :confused: ... SO? What are the amish gonna do?!This is America ... what is ANYONE going to do? ... haul out a modified AK when staring down the barrel of a tank?

[Smurf]

hmmm good point. I have no rebuke. You win.

[Evo]

Two African swallows and a bit of string.G1: So they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway.
G2: Wait a minute! Supposing *two* swallows carried it together!
G1: Nooo..... They'd have to have it on a line...
G2: Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper!
G1: What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
G2: Well, why not?

[Ivan Seeking]

I think this becomes a matter of national security and survival. We must have a common language. We have all but lost control of the borders - the situation is barely short of a shifting US/Mexican border. A nation cannot survive under these circumstances.

Maybe we should all learn spanish. That would work as well.

[Smurf]

Woah Woah WOOAH Ivan. Stop being so cheery, there's a downside too you know!

[Ivan Seeking]

Woah Woah WOOAH Ivan. Stop being so cheery, there's a downside too you know!

I watched my home turn into a ghetto. This gets a little personal.

[iansmith]

The observation was that 'there was no trouble in Canada based on having two languages'.

I am glad to see that you have agreed with me and explained that having two 'official languages' has indeed given Canada terrorists.

Terrorists and extremist activity is usually due the Quebec Sovereignty movement and the acts are usually done by the FLQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3%A9ration_du_Qu%C3%A9bec


So you agree that the government was correct in spending $2 million to recover $100 thousand in back taxes?

This is not a problem to you? Again, you have just proved to our fiscally minded bretheren to the south that there are some really nasty problems but you are just too messed up to realize it.
This man lived in a community that had 7 french speakers. He and his wife and 5 children who did not qualify as great enough of a population to create a French School. His children were educated in English, he signed contracts in English, he had an English lawyer, he purchased his land in English and he banks in English.

I was within his right to ask to be trialled in french. Maybe the man felt that he would not get fair trial in english.

Well, thanks for that. Next time I consider employment with the Canadian government, I'll remember that I have to moved to Quebec for 10 years and aquire my language skills.

The only problem with that is the guy looking at my CV will not have the same opinion of my language skills because 'living in a province for 10 years' does not give me an academic credit and he will assume I only speak Parisian French and I won't even get called for an interview since I am not a NATIVE speaker of Quebecoise.

You'll also find that most Quebecoise speakers do NOT leave the province to learn English. They simply go to night school. Our language appears in text books. Quebecoise does not because it is a gutteral dialect of French that even the real French have no respect for since it is considered an abomination and affront to the national language of France.

You do not need 10 years to learn another language. Somebody that is fully immersed will required 3 to 6 months to be able functional in that language.
Most Quebecois I know went to ontario for 1 or 2 summer to work and learn english. You might be right on one part, several other people go to english college or university to learn english rather than going out of province. I did both. I went to ontario for two years and went to CEGEP and university in english.

Night school does not help either. I have seen a fair share of people coming out had difficult carrying a conversation.

As far the French not respecting my language, I think you are wrong. they may make humour it at times but they are fully capable of understanding Quebec french. I have meet several french exchange student and they were fully capable of understanding us. However, they felt we had some unusual expressions but vice et versa.

[Smurf]

However, they felt we had some unusual expressions but vice et versa.
:rofl: Yeah, I bet.

[loseyourname]

Nothing in the United States Constitution grants any citizen the right to vote.

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion)

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion)

"It may be surprising that in the US citizens technically lack a constitutional right to vote."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage#Suffrage_today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage#Suffrage_today)

The wonderful thing about the English language is that it is so rich with implications. Ask yourself this question: How can a government make a law abridging or denying a right that its citizens do not have? Consider the tenth amendment in concert with the fifteenth and nineteenth. The tenth establishes that those powers not granted to the federal government, such as holding elections, are given to the states. Then the others say that the states cannot deny anyone their right to vote on the basis of the reasons enumerated. Remember also the ninth amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Just because a right isn't expressly given in the constitution doesn't mean that the citizenry doesn't have it. Taking all of this together in context, we can see that the constitution is more than just the sum of its parts. In fact, in dealing with constitutional law, we must also remember that US Supreme Court precedent sets this law in addition to the constitution as written. Whenever any law was passed that abridged any group its right to vote (aside from minors and felons), that law was stricken by the Court. Chances are, they would do the same if ballots were to only be printed in English and no translation service provided for those who could not read or speak the language.

[loseyourname]

I think this becomes a matter of national security and survival. We must have a common language. We have all but lost control of the borders - the situation is barely short of a shifting US/Mexican border. A nation cannot survive under these circumstances.

Maybe we should all learn spanish. That would work as well.

It seems to me that we should really just make both languages mandatory in public schools. It would take maybe an extra hour a day for the first couple years of school to teach children to speak Spanish fluently. Do they really need to go home before 2 o'clock anyway?

[The Smoking Man]

Terrorists and extremist activity is usually due the Quebec Sovereignty movement and the acts are usually done by the FLQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_independence_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3%A9ration_du_Qu%C3%A9bec
So, you don't see the government of Quebec creating their own language laws over the federal laws a problem ... It's all the FLQ then, right?

I was within his right to ask to be trialled in french. Maybe the man felt that he would not get fair trial in english.And maybe he had a perfect command of English but used his language rights to screw the government out of $1,900,000 out of some form of revenge?

You do not need 10 years to learn another language. Somebody that is fully immersed will required 3 to 6 months to be able functional in that language.
Most Quebecois I know went to ontario for 1 or 2 summer to work and learn english. You might be right on one part, several other people go to english college or university to learn english rather than going out of province. I did both. I went to ontario for two years and went to CEGEP and university in english.

Night school does not help either. I have seen a fair share of people coming out had difficult carrying a conversation.

As far the French not respecting my language, I think you are wrong. they may make humour it at times but they are fully capable of understanding Quebec french. I have meet several french exchange student and they were fully capable of understanding us. However, they felt we had some unusual expressions but vice et versa.The point I was making was that it isn't the skill of the speaker, it is the interpretation of the interviewer which carries.

I am saying that if I spend 10 years living in backwoods rural Quebec, I won't even get called to the interview.

My mother is bilingual and ran the Canada Manpower Center in Cambridge, Ontario of 25 years (She was forced to BECOME bilingual to KEEP her job).

My sister speaks 5 languages having attended York (Mad Frogs and English Men) University in Toronto and had some nasty experiences in Quebec.

My brother in law speaks 7 (He's a Dutch dental surgeon).

We have all had nasty experiences because we do not speak Quebecoise.

Nice story about your French friends. Now look at the official view of Quebecoise in France.

[The Smoking Man]

It seems to me that we should really just make both languages mandatory in public schools. It would take maybe an extra hour a day for the first couple years of school to teach children to speak Spanish fluently. Do they really need to go home before 2 o'clock anyway?LOL

This is the nation that had to come up with hooked on Phonics to combat illiteracy.

Now you propose literacy in two languages is going to be simple?

This is the way Canada got messed up. They brought in manditory French when I was in Grade 6. Then they told us that the Quebecers had refused to implement the second half of this plan ... that the French would have manditory English classes.

We were a tad p!ssed and my French sucks to this day because we all rebelled.

(Or did you really mean to put in a smiley here and couldn't bring yourself to do it?)

[iansmith]

This is the way Canada got messed up. They brought in manditory French when I was in Grade 6. Then they told us that the Quebecers had refused to implement the second half of this plan ... that the French would have manditory English classes.


In Quebec, English as a second language is mandatory from grade 4 and they thinking about starting mandatory english from kindergarden or grade 1.

[The Smoking Man]

In Quebec, English as a second language is mandatory from grade 4 and they thinking about starting mandatory english from kindergarden or grade 1.So you 'went to University and moved to an English speaking community' why again?

Yes, you have manditory education NOW. When it originally happened, back in the early 70's, it didn't happen.

I lived through it.

You do see what is happening here ... you're again helping to prove the point that there ARE problems with language in Canada.

[outsider]

Why must there be legislation? And who will benefit? Is it for a greater good? And will it hinder anyone? What will the affects be? How will life be different after legislation? I'm taking a few days off of PF.

[SOS2008]

It seems to me that we should really just make both languages mandatory in public schools. It would take maybe an extra hour a day for the first couple years of school to teach children to speak Spanish fluently. Do they really need to go home before 2 o'clock anyway?If you look at what has made the U.S. a successful "melting pot" versus other countries with great diversity of religions, ethnic groups, etc. is that citizens see themselves as Americans first, and what ever else second. You can display a state flag, but you must display the U.S. flag as well. You can speak how ever many languages you choose, but English should be the common language everyone should know at a minimum (two national languages defeats the idea of a common language).

And personally I don't care for historical excuses. Using California as an example -- The Mexican population was sparse and the government/military presence was minimal. The territory was annexed with hardly a shot fired. The Mexican people were welcome to stay, to keep their land, and receive automatic U.S. citizenship. They accepted with a great celebration. Now they live in the wealthiest country in the world. Had the area remained Mexican territory, they would live in a third-world country. President Fox is just using this as propaganda to bolster himself and detract from failure of the Mexican government to do right by it's own people.

For those of you who do not live in a border state, I don't think you really realize the impact illegals are having--aside from what has already been discussed in other threads (education, crime, medical care/disease, etc.). Businesses of every kind must provide services in Spanish--It's not just the neighborhood shops catering to their local patrons. It used to be a courtesy, but now it's demanded--big difference IMO. I've lived in the Southwest all my life, and have had, and still have many Hispanic relationships. But now there is an underlying hostility I don't feel is good for this country.

NOTE: I highlighted illegal above, because immigrants from other countries are entering the U.S. legally, and are more likely to speak/learn English and advance within society as "Americans."

[Smurf]

The territory was annexed with hardly a shot fired. The Mexican people were welcome to stay, to keep their land, and receive automatic U.S. citizenship. They accepted with a great celebration. Now they live in the wealthiest country in the world. Had the area remained Mexican territory, they would live in a third-world country.
Now that's just silly. California has the GDP of a small, wealthy, country and is one of the most populous states. You don't know what would've happened if it had remained mexican.

[hitssquad]

You don't know what would've happened if it had remained mexican.We have a pretty good idea.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/027597510X (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/027597510X)

[Informal Logic]

Now that's just silly. California has the GDP of a small, wealthy, country and is one of the most populous states. You don't know what would've happened if it had remained mexican.The reasons the US is a first world country versus the reason Mexico is a third world country would still be the case regardless of amount of territory. With one exception... The loss of the California coast would mean more to the US than to Mexico, which has extensive Pacific coast without it. ??

The point is this is being used by Fox to increase his popularity, but it has caused hostility in the US.

[vanesch]

I'm not sure why they want to convert the population of America to a new language. Why not use one of the languages already in use? :biggrin: Like that funny one that has an affinity for 'z's and words like center, nite, color, favorite, honor etc. :rofl:

Apart from that seeing as how America is composed of immigrants from practically every nation of the world I do not see why there should be one official language unless the idea is to relegate others to some kind of second class, not really american, status.

Being myself of Belgian origin, I can tell you, talking about official and other languages will get them in one hell of a mess they'll never recover from ! :biggrin:

[Astronuc]

I wonder if improper grammar will become a 'federal offense'.

I think for one, the first use of "like you know" in any sentence, either spoken or written, should be a misdemeanor. Multiple use should constitute a felony - but what punishment? Detention? :biggrin:

I would settle for people actually being able to write or speak with proper English. :biggrin:

[Jimmy Snyder]

It would serve those politicians right if plain English was declared the official language.

[loseyourname]

If you look at what has made the U.S. a successful "melting pot" versus other countries with great diversity of religions, ethnic groups, etc. is that citizens see themselves as Americans first, and what ever else second. You can display a state flag, but you must display the U.S. flag as well. You can speak how ever many languages you choose, but English should be the common language everyone should know at a minimum (two national languages defeats the idea of a common language).

I guess I just don't really see why speaking two languages makes a person less American. I can speak three fairly well and am learning two others and I seem to have managed not to disrupt American unity. Given that Spanish and English are far and away the two most common world languages, it would seem to be to everyone's benefit to speak both.

About the border state thing, I did grow up in Los Angeles, which now has a Hispanic majority. My sister's boyfriend, the father of my only niece, is here illegally. It's not like I have no experience with this thing. But people like him, who speak both languages and are more American than Mexican at this point, are not the problem. It's the people who refuse to learn English or Americanize in any way that present a problem. Two national languages would not present a problem so long as everyone learns both languages.

Heck, even countries that have had multiple languages in the past weren't necessarily unsuccessful because of it. If you look just at the progenitors of the two languages in question here, the UK and Spain, they've had multiple native languages in their countries for a thousand years (English, Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, and Welsh; Spanish and Catalan, respectively), yet they've still managed to exist and prosper.

By the way, I never meant to imply that California had been stolen or that it in any meaningful way still belongs to Mexico or Mexicans. But come on. The names of the state and all of the major cities are Spanish. The names of the old roads and land formations are Spanish. The bulk of the historical artifacts are Spanish. It is my belief that the experience of any Californian of himself as a Californian will be much richer if he understands and can speak the historically dominant language of his land.

[loseyourname]

I wonder if improper grammar will become a 'federal offense'.

I think for one, the first use of "like you know" in any sentence, either spoken or written, should be a misdemeanor. Multiple use should constitute a felony - but what punishment? Detention? :biggrin:

I would settle for people actually being able to write or speak with proper English. :biggrin:

A little bit of dialectical prejudice there, Astro? Everything said today by any speaker of English would be almost entirely incorrect in Middle or Old English, especially given the complete loss of inflection. Language evolves and the rules change. You may not like the sound of some valley girl saying "like, you know," but there is no objective rule stating that this exclamation is a less valid way of expressing a conjunctive relationship between direct objects than "such as."

[Jimmy Snyder]

Spanish and English are far and away the two most common world languages

1 Chinese (Mandarin) 1,000,000,000 +
2 English 508,000,000
3 Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) 497,000,000
4 Spanish 392,000,000
5 Russian 277,000,000
6 Arabic 246,000,000
7 Bengali 211,000,000
8 Portuguese 191,000,000
9 Malay-Indonesian 159,000,000
10 French 129,000,000

Source: University of Washington

www.aneki.com/languages.html

[loseyourname]

Yes, I was going to mention Chinese as well, but didn't because of all the different dialects. The same with Hindustani, which isn't really only one language.* I find it impossible to believe that only 500 million people speak English worldwide, too. The population of the US, UK, and Canada alone is a little over 400 million. That may be an accurate reflection of how many speak English as their primary language, but there is no way it reflects the number capable of holding a conversation in the language.

*I admit ignorance of these languages, by the way. For all I know, the differences between dialects are no more than the differences between American English and English English, or Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish.

[loseyourname]

From the same page, here is the list of all the countries that are English-speaking:

• Antigua and Barbuda
• Australia
• Bahamas,The
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belize
• Bermuda
• Botswana
• Brunei
• Cameroon
• Canada
• Cayman Islands
• Dominica
• Fiji
• Gambia,The
• Ghana
• Gibraltar
• India
• Ireland
• Jamaica
• Kenya
• Lesotho
• Liberia
• Malawi
• Malta
• Mauritius
• New Zealand
• Nigeria
• Pakistan
• Papua New Guinea
• Philippines
• Seychelles
• Sierra Leone
• South Africa
• Sri Lanka
• Swaziland
• Tanzania
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Kingdom
• United States
• Zambia
• Zimbabwe

Their populations add up to much more than 500 million. India and the US alone account for about three times that much.

[selfAdjoint]

1 Chinese (Mandarin) 1,000,000,000 +
2 English 508,000,000
3 Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) 497,000,000
4 Spanish 392,000,000
5 Russian 277,000,000
6 Arabic 246,000,000
7 Bengali 211,000,000
8 Portuguese 191,000,000
9 Malay-Indonesian 159,000,000
10 French 129,000,000

Source: University of Washington

www.aneki.com/languages.html

The source didn't say if that was native speakers only. Half a billion English speakers just looks like the total population of the English-speaking countries (USA by itself is almost a third of a billion), but there are many people in other countries who speak some English.

[The Smoking Man]

The source didn't say if that was native speakers only. Half a billion English speakers just looks like the total population of the English-speaking countries (USA by itself is almost a third of a billion), but there are many people in other countries who speak some English.The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.

[Smurf]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.
If that's true it makes jimmysnyder's data even less seemingly plausible. We need more sources.

[Astronuc]

A little bit of dialectical prejudice there, Astro? Everything said today by any speaker of English would be almost entirely incorrect in Middle or Old English, especially given the complete loss of inflection. Language evolves and the rules change. You may not like the sound of some valley girl saying "like, you know," but there is no objective rule stating that this exclamation is a less valid way of expressing a conjunctive relationship between direct objects than "such as."I did use :biggrin: !

It just irks me to hear people converse with filler phrases.

It also irks me when government entities harp on education matters when the legislative and executive officials would most likely fail high school proficiency/competency tests, which politicians would like to impose on teachers. I would imagine the President Bush would fail any competency test in English, History, Geography, and Mathematics, and so would many legislators at the federal, state and local level.

I heard the state senator from my area brag one time that he was totally helpless when it came to using a PC - he relied on his assistants. :rolleyes:

And I was informed today that several schools in Texas, which used to be top schools, have declined precipitously in quality.

I have seen little or no progress (and perhaps even some regression) in general education since I left high school 30+ years ago.

[selfAdjoint]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.

[Astronuc]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know. Once in a while I have had that experience. I hired the valedictorian of the local high school - his resume would put most college baccalaureate graduates to shame. He is brilliant at math (he went on to Harvard) and an excellent programmer. I was truly impressed with his initiative and quality of his work.

On the other hand, a group of engineers and I attended a career day at the same high school. All of us were thoroughly unimpressed and even discouraged at the end of the day. Of several hundred students, only a handful displayed a sufficient level of education. The vast majority had trouble making coherent or intelligent statments, and this is supposed to be one of the better schools in the state (?).

I felt like the majority of students were barely qualified for Walmart or McDonalds. It was that bad!

[honestrosewater]

I did use :biggrin: !Yes, but did you really mean it?! :tongue2:

[Smurf]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.
Try not to be too impressed by my charm. I may be intelligent, but I'm not perfect.

[Clausius2]

I think I am arriving too late here.

To say the truth I wish spanish were the official language in US...........because I wouldn't have to do the effort of learning english.... :rofl: :rofl: .

More seriously, I don't know which is the exact amount of people who don't speak usually english in US, but I do think the official language of US should be english, at least for historical causes.

And listen to this: here in Spain we have an official language: the spanish or also so-called "Castellano" by those who are not symphathetic with the idea of an united nation. Spanish arose in the Castilla Kingdom, and for that is used to call it castellano. But now there are some separatist people, specially in Catalonia, Galicia, and Pais Basque that are trying to make local dialects as official national languages. For example, the language spoken in the Pais Basque is very very different from spanish (it's like german!).

So I will laugh a lot when someone says in US someone claims for spanish being an official language while here people (who are supporters of current government by the way) are trying to kick out spanish language.

[Informal Logic]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.This is the issue. English, which is the international language (science, commerce, etc.) is spoken more widely over seas than it is within the US. The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing. In the meantime, why should those who do speak English learn Spanish? That does not make sense.

[honestrosewater]

The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing.I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.

[TheStatutoryApe]

I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.
It's mainly a fringe group I think but around here and in some other areas there are those with a strong latino pride. They argue that since there is no offcial language then they should not have to learn english. They put the onus on the government and non-spanish speakers to learn spanish and provide education for those that don't speak english in their own language without pressuring them to learn english.
The reason why people believe it is targeted at latinos? The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.

[The Smoking Man]

The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)

[honestrosewater]

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?Someone interested may be able to find info here:
http://www.lep.gov/demographic.html
http://www.census.gov/mp/www/spectab/specialtab.html
One report you may want: "Language Spoken at Home for the Citizen Population 18 Years and Over Who Speak English Less Than “Very Well.”" (scroll or find).
Total - 8079960
Speak Spanish or Spanish Creole - 4521485
Speak other Indo European language - 1702185
Speak Asian or Pacific Island language - 1582520
Speak other language - 273775
(From 2000 Census)
Actually, it looks like there's lots of more detailed info on the first site.

[Townsend]

illegals and denied the right to schooling?


Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?

I should also note that I am almost 100 percent positive that no child living in the US would be denied the opportunity to go to school...the problem is that if they are illegal they would be deported and so they don't go to school. It has nothing to do with anyone trying suppress anyone else. And it's not like most of the prosperous countries of the world don't have immigration laws too.

[honestrosewater]

Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! (:redface:)
In 1982 the Supreme Court ruled
that states and school districts
cannot deny education to illegal
alien children residing here.
- http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04733.pdf

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled.

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! (:redface:)

Your lastest edit confirms my belief that they would not be denied an opportunity to goto school.

[honestrosewater]

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.Don't worry, I was just delivering the news. :smile:

[TheStatutoryApe]

We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)
Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be differant than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.

[SOS2008]

As stated earlier I've lived in the Southwest all my life. Recently (within 2005) I had two Hispanic clients demand bilingual services for the customers they would bring to us. I'm close enough to these individuals to have candid conversation, and said something to the effect that it would be in the best interest of their customers if in the long run they learned to speak English--you know liberal 'wanting the best for all' kind of philosophy. I was told (by the one client in a rather nasty way) that Hispanics would soon be the majority so we better get with the program and learn Spanish. What a wake up call--I began to realize this is a hostile take over. You won't get any statistics on this, it's the kind of subversive thing you find out for yourself--you know, 'learn on the street' kind of thing.

[The Smoking Man]

Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be differant than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.
I have never lived there ... but had the opportunity to before moving out of the country.

I was offered a position in the community where Clint Eastwood is/was Mayor.

That would have been too much, I think.

Dirty Harry as the mayor and the Terminator as governor... Who, sometime back inherited it from Bonzo goes to Washington!?

The world is surreal enough.

Ironically, I was just changing wallets this morning and just found my Social Security Card... I have a collection of things like this now.

People often wonder with my two citizenships that allow me to work anywhere in North America and any where in Europe just why the heck I am in China.

Life's too short to bet on being able to travel when you retire.

I kind of liked the Latino Commedian who said after the Taco Bell Dog ... No they aren't proving Latinos are stupid, they are trying to say Chihuahuas are smart. Smarter than Lassie anyway ...

Later, Later, Eh?

[honestrosewater]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

[SOS2008]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?As stated in my first post, I question what this particular bill would accomplish. However, I support having a national language and expectation that immigrants learn to speak it as a part of citizenship. The topic of illegal immigration is raised in relation to such bills because of the astronomical number of illegals entering the country, which has been causing anti-English attitudes and divisiveness.

[Skyhunter]

There was a movement in California to make english the official language of California.

Someone asked me if it bothered me that my taxes were being spent on multi-lingual correspondence from the state.

I pointed out that spanish was spoken in California before english. My opinion is that it was nothing more than a wedge issue to keep people diverted from the real issues.

[loseyourname]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

There are more Irish people in the US than there are in Ireland.

[loseyourname]

In the meantime, why should those who do speak English learn Spanish? That does not make sense.

You don't think it's a good idea to learn such a prevalent language? You can get by almost anywhere in the world by knowing just those two languages - Spanish and English, because someone is going to speak one of them. Although I'm starting to think that learning some Chinese would be a good idea as well. Maybe when I've become somewhat proficient in Irish Gaelic, it'll be time to tackle Mandarin.

[SOS2008]

Of course there is nothing bad about being able to speak more than one language. LYN, the point is that English must be learned first and foremost in order to maintain a common language, and learning other languages should be optional and by individual choice. Here is a news report tonight regarding debate over making Spanish mandatory for educators:

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, surrendering America. Dallas, Texas, votes on an incredible proposal that would force school officials there to learn Spanish and speak it on the job. All of this, instead of forcing parents and students to assimilate into U.S. society and learn English.
----------------------------------------------------
ROMANS: Educators and teachers unions are watching this one closely. If Dallas passes this, it sets a precedence that could change the face of education in all ethnic neighborhoods.

And with many urban neighborhoods already facing shortages of qualified administrators, a recommendation to speak Spanish or Cantonese or Vietnamese, whatever the language, could have a chilling effect, these educators say, on recruiting and retaining top talent in these schools.

DOBBS: Well, it could certainly do that, Christine, as you report. But also, it is absolutely upside down. English is the language of this nation. The suggestion that students not learn English and not be capable of translating for their parents, or their parents assimilating into this culture, is utter madness. And for a public school district, the trustee, Joe May, is he out of his mind?And corresponding CNN poll results as of this time:

Do you think the interests of society are best served by requiring public schools to:

Teach students English - 97% (4,542 votes)
Teach principals Spanish - 3% (123 votes)

After prop 200 passed in Arizona, I'm shocked that Texas is even remotely considering such a requirement in their state. And for those who don't think there is hostility, once again as reported tonight:

In Yuma, Arizona, a group of violent illegal aliens attacked a Border Patrol helicopter, and they forced the pilot of that helicopter to make an emergency landing. The U.S. Border Patrol says those illegal aliens threw rocks at the helicopter similar to this one that patrols the border with Mexico. One rock, we're told, the size of a baseball, was thrown into the rotor blades, damaged one of them. The pilot was not injured, nor was the U.S. Border Patrol observer with him.]http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/25/ldt.01.html

[TheStatutoryApe]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?
Making english our official language wouldn't mean that people will be deported because they can't speak english. It wouldn't mean that people couldn't get jobs if they weren't proficient. It wouldn't mean people wouldn't be able to get information in other languages from the government either. It just means that english is our official language. The only substancial thing I can see coming of this is that learning english will be required in public schools and people will not be able to get around that by saying there is no legal precident for it.

I pointed out that spanish was spoken in California before english. My opinion is that it was nothing more than a wedge issue to keep people diverted from the real issues.
Requiring that kids in school and adults in college learn english will not create divisivness except where people wish to resist aclimation to an english speaking society. I really can't think of much that will devide people more than not sharing a common language.

I began to realize this is a hostile take over. You won't get any statistics on this, it's the kind of subversive thing you find out for yourself--you know, 'learn on the street' kind of thing.
I think this might be just a wee bit extreme. Not entirely unfounded though.
Mexifornia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893554732/102-0009366-9802509?v=glance)
This deals predominantly with California, as you can probably tell, but the subject is all about the issues of illegal immigration and the roles of both the US and Mexican government in it. I'm sure it could easily apply to other border states aswell even though it focuses on CA. Haven't read it yet, but if I remember to I would probably pick it up myself.

[Clausius2]

I am afraid the mental image you are acquiring about spanish. Please, keep in mind that an spanish from Spain is not the same as an hispanic, and that an spanish (Spain) inmmigrant in US surely won't dedicate his time to do the same things that the majority of hispanics inmmigrants do when they pass the borders. Here it is the same with almost all morocco inmmigrants who enters by the south border of Gibraltar, they come for nothing except causing problems.

I am going to SoCA, and I will try to do my best in saying I am from Spain==Europe, and I am not going to US to do nothing harmful to US society. I do undertand the antipathy that hispanic inmmigration might be caused in american native people, because I have said here it is the same with morocco's. And I do understand the antipathy that spanish language might cause for this, but keep in mind also that the spanish language is not the same than "hispanic" language. The latter is a poor degeneration of the first one.

The main purpose of all my comments is do not confuse Spanish with Hispanic, please.

[honestrosewater]

Making english our official language wouldn't mean that people will be deported because they can't speak english. It wouldn't mean that people couldn't get jobs if they weren't proficient. It wouldn't mean people wouldn't be able to get information in other languages from the government either. It just means that english is our official language.Right, deporting people was just regarding how you would forcing people to learn a language. I think the title of official language is merely symbolic. Nothing else that people want to get done requires English to have the title of official language.

[TheStatutoryApe]

I am afraid the mental image you are acquiring about spanish. Please, keep in mind that an spanish from Spain is not the same as an hispanic, and that an spanish (Spain) inmmigrant in US surely won't dedicate his time to do the same things that the majority of hispanics inmmigrants do when they pass the borders. Here it is the same with almost all morocco inmmigrants who enters by the south border of Gibraltar, they come for nothing except causing problems.

I am going to SoCA, and I will try to do my best in saying I am from Spain==Europe, and I am not going to US to do nothing harmful to US society. I do undertand the antipathy that hispanic inmmigration might be caused in american native people, because I have said here it is the same with morocco's. And I do understand the antipathy that spanish language might cause for this, but keep in mind also that the spanish language is not the same than "hispanic" language. The latter is a poor degeneration of the first one.

The main purpose of all my comments is do not confuse Spanish with Hispanic, please.
I don't think I have ever met anyone actually from Spain. And don't worry if people think you are from Mexico, unless that in it self bothers you, you shouldn't have any problems. People here, for the most part, don't have any problems with people from other countries. What they have a problem with is their tax money going to an ever growing populace of people who do not pay taxes. It's not the people themselves, it's the government that is allowing this to continue that bothers them. Even then those people are probably a minority. This is one of the most liberal states in the country. You'll most likely be quite welcome here. Please don't let this issue think you'll be made a pariah. And if any one does treat you badly I apologize in advance.

[Clausius2]

I don't think I have ever met anyone actually from Spain. And don't worry if people think you are from Mexico, unless that in it self bothers you, you shouldn't have any problems. People here, for the most part, don't have any problems with people from other countries. What they have a problem with is their tax money going to an ever growing populace of people who do not pay taxes. It's not the people themselves, it's the government that is allowing this to continue that bothers them. Even then those people are probably a minority. This is one of the most liberal states in the country. You'll most likely be quite welcome here. Please don't let this issue think you'll be made a pariah. And if any one does treat you badly I apologize in advance.

I quite understand you, because here we feel the same!. You have said the government has the blame, and I do think so. Here the government also makes silly advantages to illegal inmmigrants such as complete legalization without scarcely any requirement and the instantaneous convalidation of the license driver. If you may have been read the european news last times, the whole european community is astonished seeing how Spain has applied a new law of inmmigrants legalization without consulting EU.

To say the truth, we sometimes blame to the inmmigrants about what is happening. But we have to accept they have some part of the blame too. Me, as a future visa inmmigrant in US, I am aware I'm going to a foreign country, I must respect to native population and native costumes, and I have to be grateful for being hosted by a foreign country. This feelling is not shared by, for instance, the majority of morocco inmmigrants who come to spanish shores. They haven't got any respect for us, they don't come here to work. Anyway, it is my personal impression, my words are not universal, and surely there are exceptions about my statement.

I am glad of what you said about CA. I hope so and I hope that american native people know how to differentiate between an hispanic who go to US to be a delinquent, and an spanish mechanical engineer who go to US to do research.