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-   -   Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning. (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=553691)

JJRKnights Nov24-11 05:29 PM

Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
1. The problem statement, all variables and given/known data
Assuming that ∅ is a differentiable scalar valued function and F a differentiable vector field, derive the following identities.

a)∇(dotted with)(∅F) = ∇∅(dotted with)F + ∅∇(dotted with)F
b)∇(crossed with)(∅F) = ∇∅(crossed with)F + ∅∇(crossed with)F

2. Relevant equations



3. The attempt at a solution
Honestly don't know where to start.

JJRKnights Nov24-11 05:32 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
Nevermind, delete this, I've got it, just didn't put the initial effort into it.

JJRKnights Nov29-11 07:14 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
Would this be the correct derivation for part a)

So far all I see is:
∅F is the vector field
∅ = ∅(x,y,z)
F = <P,Q,R>
∇(dotted with)F = x partial P + y partial Q + z partial R
∇∅ = <x partial ∅, y partial ∅, z partial ∅>
∅F = <∅P, ∅Q, ∅R>

a)∇(dotted with)(∅F) = [∇∅](dotted with)F + ∅∇(dotted with)F
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = [∇∅](dotted with)F + ∅[∇(dotted with)F]
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = [∇∅](dotted with)F + ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = [∇∅](dotted with)F + ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = <∂/∂x∅, ∂/∂y∅, ∂/∂z∅>(dotted with)<P,Q,R> + ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = <0,0,0>(dotted with)<P,Q,R> + ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∇(dotted with)[∅F] = ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
<∂/∂x,∂/∂y,∂/∂z>(dotted with)<∅P, ∅Q, ∅R> = ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR) = ∅(∂/∂xP + ∂/∂yQ + ∂/∂zR)
∇(dotted with)(∅F) = [∇∅](dotted with)F + ∅∇(dotted with)F

JJRKnights Dec1-11 02:32 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
Hello? I did the work out and nobody can spot anything I did wrong, or if i did it right?

vela Dec1-11 02:40 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
No, that isn't correct. You can't treat [itex]\phi[/itex] like a constant.

JJRKnights Dec1-11 02:46 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
Thank you for the reply.

My professor wrote all of those on the board:

ϕ = ϕ(x,y,z)
ϕF is the vector field
ϕ = ϕ(x,y,z)
F = <P,Q,R>
∇(dotted with)F = x partial P + y partial Q + z partial R
∇ϕ = <x partial ϕ, y partial ϕ, z partial ϕ>
ϕF = <ϕP, ϕQ, ϕR>

ϕ is a function of x,y, and z.
If I can't treat it as a constant in this situation, what can I do with it?

vela Dec1-11 03:47 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
Just start with the definition of the divergence and apply it to ϕF = (ϕP, ϕQ, ϕR):
[tex]\nabla\cdot(\phi \mathbf{F}) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x} (\phi P) + \frac{\partial}{\partial y} (\phi Q) + \frac{\partial}{\partial z} (\phi R)[/tex]Now use the product rule on each of the three terms.

JJRKnights Dec1-11 08:55 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
∇⋅(ϕF)=∂/∂x(ϕP)+∂/∂y(ϕQ)+∂/∂z(ϕR)
so
=(ϕ'P + P'ϕ) + (ϕQ' + ϕ'Q) + (ϕR' + ϕ'R)
= ϕ'(P+Q+R) + ϕ(P'+Q'+R')
So it looks like ϕ'(P+Q+R) = (∇ϕ)⋅F and ϕ(P'+Q'+R') = ϕ(∇⋅F)
and that is the end of the proof?

vela Dec1-11 10:29 PM

Re: Deriving cross product and dot product, stuck at beginning.
 
You're on the right track, but you need to keep track of the fact that the derivatives are with respect to different variables so you can't, for example, simply collect terms and factor ϕ' out to get the first term.


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