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Mar13-12, 12:45 PM
P: 172
Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
"I.e." stands simply for "that is," which written out fully in Latin is 'id est'. "I.e." is used in place of "in other words," or "it/that is." It specifies or makes more clear. If you mean "for example" you should use e.g.
Well, grammar? Is that really your response? My grammar could keep you busy. I honestly could care less about me using i.e. as opposed to e.g. or just omit the word ‘example’, or if i.e. must be exclusive of all other things. The point is the same.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
When you say "you keep what you kill". i.e. I earned it. It's mine. . I may have misinterpreted your meaning, but your busy saying what you didn't mean, and I'm still not sure what you meant. Now I believe you are making a hunting reference.
What isn't clear about "I earned it. It's mine"? lol, a “hunting reference”? Really? It's hard to fathom a mind that thinks along that line. The tactic of obscuring the point by picking on the language, grammar, etc., isn’t new. Perhaps, adding substance would help. Let put my point a different way. I’ll keep the money I earn, only paying the government for the services I use. If I go out to eat, I’ll pay my bill, and not the bill of the guy next to me. I’ll get gas in my car and pay for it, but not the car next to me. When I sell my old house and buy a new one, I’ll pay for it, but not the guy next to me. BTW, those are “e.g.” statements, rofl.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
My observation has been that people don't so much earn a salary as negotiate a salary. The best negotiators make a "killing" (not a literal killing, but a figurative one, of course) where they manage to negotiate a payment far beyond what they deserve, whereas the lesser negotiators are "killed" (not usually literally, but figuratively--but sometimes literally) where they end up underwater on their debts, unable to afford anything that would get them out of their situation.
Yes, those of us that earn a salary work. We get paid the same for 30 or 80 hour weeks. Perhaps your work experience is sufficiently limited you don't realize that hourly workers negotiate their hourly wage too. The notion that we "negotiate a payment far beyond what they deserve" is so over the top it's hard to respond. I'm sure my hospital was falling all over itself to pay me more than they had too. Just as I'm sure the guy putting nuts on lugs in the assembly line is being cheated at $25/hr (what a friend was making in the early 80s). Also, perhaps you've never been swimming, but getting under water means you had to jump in first. Perhaps those that got under water where swimming beyond their ability. "e.g." maybe they should control their debt load to stay within their means under adverse conditions. I don't buy things I "want" if it has the potential to put things I "need" at risk. My first jobs were hourly, and I had to negotiate my wages, walking away from a couple jobs. Over the past 30 years, it’s been salary, and I have a lot more 40 plus weeks than short weeks. Being salary isn’t a big plus, if your services are in high demand, since your effective wage ($/hr) drops.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
Well what is the difference between someone who won't earn a wage, and those who can't earn a wage? In what category do you place someone who has no car, no skills, nobody asking him to do anything, no ideas? There are a lot of people out there with literally nothing to do? Why? Because of productivity and efficiency, a lot less people are needed to produce the same amount of service.
Seems pretty obvious, but I’ll give some examples. You know, the e.g. stuff, lol. Those that have “off book” income, 2nd and 3rd generation unemployed, and those that gave up looking for work would fit the “won’t earn a wage” bunch that collects benefits off those that to work. IMO, the “those who can't earn a wage” are the group at are too old, infirm, ill, and disabled. No one that I know would promote not caring for those that “CAN’T” take care of themselves. Productivity, may have an impact, but we can't continue to drive businesses away with taxes and excessive regulation. "No car, no skills, nobody asking him to do anything....", yep, that was me at one time. I turned out ok. We all start somewhere, which is often "nowhere". Meaning.... I swept floors in a cannery at working through college. Yep, pretty skillless, but hey, paid the bills.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
But instead of living in a golden age, where the real wealth created by the massive increases in productivity are shared by all, we live in a society where all of the wealth is clotting among the people who believe "I earned it. It's mine."
Socialist nonsense, IMO. Who do you think creates wealth? The person that builds cars? Sure, without him….. we’d have to get….. another “guy” to take his place. There are lots of them around that want to work. Wealth is created by the people that sometimes risk all their assets to create a company, see it through the low/no growth period, hoping it survives, becomes popular, and doesn’t fail. Approximately 50% of businesses fail in the first 5 years, The guy putting on lug nuts gets paid no matter what. Who made bond holders that financed GM over the decades whole after the government pushed them from 1st in line to get paid to the back of the line? The unions and government got GM and the wealth creators “investors” that started and maintained the company for decades got the shaft. Cash in all your retirement, savings, mortgage your home and open a business. Gamble it ALL. Cross your figures that healthcare, insurance, FMLA, etc. don't change enough to put you under, and then hope your workers show up, are productive, and don't hit you with too many OSHA complaints, union work rule violations, strikes, etc. On top of all that, you'll need to make sure your business succeeds with it's product. Ref. failure rate above.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
Instead of "trickling down" from the rich to the middle-class, it is clotting among people who are mainly concerned with protecting their monopolies, and people who have been hired to protect those monopolies.
Wealth isn’t a clotting disease. It’s the reason we (those of us that work) get up in the morning and go to work. The hourly union worker has a union monopoly system to protect them. So what exactly is wrong with people protecting what is theirs in the first place? America is the land of opportunity, not freebee central. Each has the opportunity to succeed or fail. Your 401k, 403b, Keogh, SEP-IRA, etc., is invested to do what???? You generate income to give away or go towards your retirement. When you die, will you give it all away or pass it on to your kids???? Wait, giving to your kids would give them and unfair advantage…. Why would you want to do that? My grandfather was a blacksmith, and I suspect he would be pleased that his hard working life enabled his progeny to better themselves. When I die, I hope to leave my kids a better start than I had, which was good. My parents gift to us was the education and a few bucks.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
No, I'm not talking about problems that I could easily solve on my own. If I had the money, I'd hire somebody to fix my neighbors plumbing so that I could get a clean glass without washing it in their tub, or fix my other neighbor's leaky roof so I don't feel like I'm breathing in mold-spores whenever I enter their house. Once these friends of mine are in a little better situation, and I had money, I could hire them to do other stuff for me, like edit my website, create their own websites, open a day-care center, and thinktank for identifying and solving local problems. (I'm thinking of specific people I know who have really awesome talents, but are unemployed or minimum wage-earners, and have bad plumbing, and leaky roofs.)
Hmm, read your words…. They are very telling. You would “fix my neighbors plumbing” so “I could get a clean glass”. You would “fix my other neighbor's leaky roof” so “I don't feel like I'm breathing in mold-spores “. You would “hire them to do other stuff for me”. You sure sound like the rich guy that does stuff for himself. And you are different how?

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
The real problem is "the bottom line." We live in a world where the only reason to spend money is to make money. If I did hire those people to do those things, it would not lead to any direct profit for me. Like if we decided to have a national "fix-the-plumbing" and "fix-the-leaks" project, it would not directly profit anybody, and it would mostly reward people who are unemployed and "undeserving."
Yep, you got that right. Feel free to give away as much of your time and money as you want. However, as for my money “I earned it. It's mine.” FWIW, most people I know give a fair bit away, but WE choose because WE earned it and the right to choose.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
However, it would also put those unemployed people in a situation where they could get a good night's sleep for a change, and they might wake up, refreshed enough to go looking for jobs.

We have become so cost-conscious and efficient that is no longer an issue. The real issue is that we have become so efficient that everything we need is produced by a smaller and smaller number of working people.

Monopolies compound this issue, so that even if you are willing and able to work, you can only go and work for a company that is licensed to make that product. Patent law compounds the issue too, so if you want to go to work making a product that is NOT currently in production, you cannot make that without paying the patent-holder, whether that patent-holder has ever actually produced the product or not.

The only real problem that we're facing is materials shortages. If the population gets too high, there isn't enough food; But with the current advances in irrigation and plants, this should not be an issue at our current population level. The things driving up the prices of food are patent laws and market speculation in the commodities markets.
While there are merits to your points, it misses one key point. Where are the wealth creators? Why won’t people invest in jobs here? Why don’t companies expand where they already have an operational base? Every town I’ve ever lived in attracted businesses the same way, and gave tax breaks, utility breaks, land giveaways, etc. We need a business friendly environment, like Joe Biden’s Delaware.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
I have a couple of lines of questioning about Bill Gates, one regarding his earnings, and one regarding his charitable giving.

Regarding charities:
(1) Isn't giving to a charity the same thing as "throwing money at a problem?"
(2) How much tax exemption do you gain by giving to charity?
(3) What problem(s) is the Bill & Melinda Gates charity solving?
(4) Where is the money donated to that charity being funneled?
(5) What is the final destination of the majority of that money?
I don't know the answers to these questions; I just have a suspicious mind. When I hear of billions on billions of dollars going to fight malaria and educate children it seems strange, because I don't think it should cost that much.

So when the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation goes out to fight Malaria, do they find the most efficient means of fighting Malaria, and work to find an efficient method to implement that solution. No, they go to a pharmaceutical company and try to implement a "tiered pricing system" for a patented drug.

Getting the farmers better seeds. Again, those seeds are patented. The non-patented varieties of seeds will be displaced, and unavailable, and later on, the farmers will have to pay whatever price the monopolists set.

Establishing "common core standards" for education:

(Exactly how many billions of dollars went to getting 48 states to adopt these common core standards?)

Making it harder and harder to graduate from high-school; making it more and more competitive. It is also just ignoring classes like shop and home-ec; basic survival skills that help you learn how to cook and clean, and do basic maintenance.

Yes, I see that Bill Gates has given a lot to charity, but it looks to me like all his charity is aimed in a direction that supports Bill Gates philosophy, and Bill Gates philosophy is all about competition and profits and intellectual property. And of course, I don't mean to pick on Bill Gates. I'm saying that ANYBODY who has billions of dollars is going to be prone to have a similar philosophy. ""you keep what you kill". i.e. I earned it. It's mine."
Wow, and Uncle Sam is looking at your thoughts through the computer screen! You are pretty cynical. There is way too much to comment on, so take a look at . They plan on leaving the children well off, but giving most of their wealth away.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
There's two ways to look at money. One is as a fluid that runs through the economy to keep it going so that people can get what they really need and want. (That's the category I'm in.) Another way to look at money is as an intrinsic good in itself. Something that is to be sought as a score to show as proof of your value. The problem is that most people that have a lot of money are in that latter category. They think that somehow they have "won" somehow, by accumulating so much money, but from the perspective of the economy, they resemble a blood-clot; something that is preventing the economy from working by preventing the blood from flowing.
“The problem is that most people that have a lot of money are in that latter category.” --- based on? I’ve known a number of people in my life that would fit in the extremely wealth category, and NONE of them fit that description. While it has been sign of their success, none have considered it THE measure of their success. Some have bigger toys than we do, but some you wouldn’t know had much at all. I bet you have bigger toys than others, but that has nothing to do with you as a person. It’s clear to me that you are likely a good hearted person with good motives. In my experience, they measure success like we do… family, family, family.

Quote Quote by JDoolin View Post
Regarding earning:
(1) Bill Gates has "earned" on average 1 billion dollars per year, while a minimum wage worker "earns" $15,000 per year, and the median household income is $50,000. Did Bill Gates actually do the work equivalent of 67,000 minimum wage earners, or the work equivalent of 20,000 median households? (Actually that isn't fair, either, because those minimum wage earners don't accumulate 15,000 per year. The total accumulation is zero or less. Bill Gates earns INFINITELY more than I do as measured by wealth accumulation. Did he do infinitely more work?)
(2) What is the primary source of his income? Intellectual property rights of things he actually invented, or on things that other people invented? How many actual inventors are not benefiting from their inventions?
(3) Even counting innovations that Bill Gates came up with, how long into the future will Microsoft be collecting intellectual property rights on things they didn't invent, after Bill Gates passes away?
(4) How many people are prevented from working or innovating because Microsoft owns the intellectual property rights?
(1) “Did Bill Gates actually do the work equivalent of 67,000 minimum wage earners, or the work equivalent of 20,000 median households?” --- Take a look at the wealth he created for those that work for him at ALL levels, the support businesses and their employees that exist because of him, etc. So yes, IMO, the trickle down jobs, businesses and economy from Microsoft can’t be ignored when the scales of one’s life are put to balance.

(2) You don’t think the government, national lab, private company, university, etc., that bought the equipment, funded the work, supplied the staff and resources shouldn’t own the patent. In that respect, Gates get what Gates creates, directly and indirectly. You think the world is going to set the table for you to eat dinner, NOT.

(3) Depends

(4) Patents only protect the patent material. “e.g.” WoW, AutoCAD, Lotus Notes, etc. are all developed for Windows, but MS doesn’t own the patent on them. Nothing prevents you from developing Unix, Linux, LISP, or any other Windows based software. So invent away.

I hate long posts, btw, but you gave me a long one to comment on. In summary, I think you're a good person that has his/her approach to solving the worlds problems. Yours appears to be more based on outside intevention (government). I tend to fall back more toward the founders principles that require are great deal more personal responsibility. We can't be a society of takers. IMO, we have spent the time since the Great Depression creating Dependents, and we succeeded. One day there may be no one left to take from, or the "takees" will just move away.