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Question about magnet

by njama
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njama
#1
Sep7-07, 10:40 AM
P: 220
Hi,

I am new to this forum, and I just wanna say hi and I am glad that I am here. Now, I have one animation. Isn't the magnet always staying stationary, in one position? Thank you very much.

Best regards.
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berkeman
#2
Sep7-07, 11:46 AM
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What magnet? The animation would appear to show a fixed something in the middle (a magnetic pole?), and a moving object that is orbiting around the fixed object, under the influence of a central attractive force.

That wouldn't work for magnets, BTW, because there are no magnetic "monopoles", only dipoles. So you can't have a North pole body and a South pole body that are isolated.

Also, if those bodies were real (and attracted by something like gravity or electrostatic forces), the middle body would be moving some too -- the two bodies would orbit around their common center of mass.

Welcome to the PF, BTW.
njama
#3
Sep7-07, 12:01 PM
P: 220
Quote Quote by berkeman View Post
What magnet? The animation would appear to show a fixed something in the middle (a magnetic pole?), and a moving object that is orbiting around the fixed object, under the influence of a central attractive force.

That wouldn't work for magnets, BTW, because there are no magnetic "monopoles", only dipoles. So you can't have a North pole body and a South pole body that are isolated.

Also, if those bodies were real (and attracted by something like gravity or electrostatic forces), the middle body would be moving some too -- the two bodies would orbit around their common center of mass.

Welcome to the PF, BTW.
Then how magnet dipole is create? There must be two poles. The electron its self is not dipole, so there must be some other charged particle like the proton. Please help. Thanks.

berkeman
#4
Sep7-07, 12:39 PM
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Question about magnet

Quote Quote by njama View Post
Then how magnet dipole is create? There must be two poles. The electron its self is not dipole, so there must be some other charged particle like the proton. Please help. Thanks.
The basic magnetic dipole is an atom, with the "motion" of the "orbiting" electron(s) generating the magnetic dipole field. The "current" created by the "orbiting" electron is what generates the magnetic field. I'm using terms from classical physics when I say that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnets
rewebster
#5
Sep7-07, 02:14 PM
P: 880
Quote Quote by njama View Post
Hi,

I am new to this forum, and I just wanna say hi and I am glad that I am here. Now, I have one animation. Isn't the magnet always staying stationary, in one position? Thank you very much.

Best regards.
Isn't your animation a hydrogen atom/ or something 'trying' to correlate it to it?
DaveC426913
#6
Sep7-07, 03:13 PM
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The animation is depicting an electron "orbiting" a proton. njama has assigned the two particles with N and S. He is imagining an atom as essentially a spinning magnet and wants to know why macro-scale magnets have stationary poles.
njama
#7
Sep8-07, 12:41 AM
P: 220
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
The animation is depicting an electron "orbiting" a proton. njama has assigned the two particles with N and S. He is imagining an atom as essentially a spinning magnet and wants to know why macro-scale magnets have stationary poles.
Yes, that's my question. How is possible that magnet poles are not changing when the electron is moving all around the protons? To be dipole there must be 2 poles. Electron its self cant be dipole tiny magnet, because of the fact that there must be 2 opposite forces and also if the electron is dipole magnet its self, how then it will repel with another electrons, or again it is moving?

Quote Quote by Wikipedia
In physics, there are two kinds of dipoles (Hellènic: di(s)- = twi- and pòla = pivot, hinge). An electric dipole is a separation of positive and negative charge. The simplest example of this is a pair of electric charges of equal magnitude but opposite sign, separated by some, usually small, distance
HallsofIvy
#8
Sep8-07, 06:24 AM
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The whole problem, then, is that your animation, an electron orbiting a proton, has nothing to do with magnets!

It is even unrealistic in terms of charged particles (not magnets). An electron "orbiting" a proton would be accelerating and so radiating energy. Electrons do not "orbit" nuclei, they form "clouds" around them (even a single electron).
njama
#9
Sep8-07, 07:11 AM
P: 220
Quote Quote by HallsofIvy View Post
The whole problem, then, is that your animation, an electron orbiting a proton, has nothing to do with magnets!

It is even unrealistic in terms of charged particles (not magnets). An electron "orbiting" a proton would be accelerating and so radiating energy. Electrons do not "orbit" nuclei, they form "clouds" around them (even a single electron).
So please tell me then, where do the magnet dipoles come from?
HallsofIvy
#10
Sep8-07, 09:26 AM
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Quote Quote by njama View Post
So please tell me then, where do the magnet dipoles come from?
There is no magnetic dipole associated with a single hydrogen atom. There can be a magnet dipole associated with a hydrogen molecule depending upon the exact configuration.
njama
#11
Sep8-07, 10:54 AM
P: 220
Quote Quote by HallsofIvy View Post
There is no magnetic dipole associated with a single hydrogen atom. There can be a magnet dipole associated with a hydrogen molecule depending upon the exact configuration.
Can you give me some example, please?
rewebster
#12
Sep8-07, 11:41 AM
P: 880
Quote Quote by njama View Post
Can you give me some example, please?
"It is composed of a single negatively-charged electron circling a single positively-charged nucleus of the hydrogen atom."


"Even when there is no external magnetic field, in the inertial frame of the moving electron, the electromagnetic field of the nucleus has a magnetic component. The spin of the electron has an associated magnetic moment which interacts with this magnetic field. This effect is also explained by special relativity, and it leads to the so-called spin-orbit coupling, i.e., an interaction between the electron's orbital motion around the nucleus, and its spin. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_atom
njama
#13
Sep8-07, 12:01 PM
P: 220
Quote Quote by rewebster View Post
"It is composed of a single negatively-charged electron circling a single positively-charged nucleus of the hydrogen atom."


"Even when there is no external magnetic field, in the inertial frame of the moving electron, the electromagnetic field of the nucleus has a magnetic component. The spin of the electron has an associated magnetic moment which interacts with this magnetic field. This effect is also explained by special relativity, and it leads to the so-called spin-orbit coupling, i.e., an interaction between the electron's orbital motion around the nucleus, and its spin. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_atom
So, again the dipole magnet comes from the protons and electrons. Is it possible that the electron is standing in one place?
DaveC426913
#14
Sep8-07, 05:42 PM
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Perhaps it would be a useful demonstration to describe the structure of the simplest possible magnet. How many atoms are required, and what is their relationship to each other such that they form a magnetic material with a north and south pole?
njama
#15
Sep9-07, 02:19 AM
P: 220
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
Perhaps it would be a useful demonstration to describe the structure of the simplest possible magnet. How many atoms are required, and what is their relationship to each other such that they form a magnetic material with a north and south pole?
I think that one atom is tiny dipole magnet. I think that, in the atom or molecule there are 2 different charges (2 opposite forces), the protons and the electrons. So if one atom is one small magnet, then where do the opposite forces come from? Also see this.
njama
#16
Sep10-07, 01:22 PM
P: 220
So, is it possible that the electrons are standing (not moving)?
DaveC426913
#17
Sep10-07, 04:51 PM
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Quote Quote by njama View Post
I think that one atom is tiny dipole magnet.
No.

Quote Quote by njama View Post
So, is it possible that the electrons are standing (not moving)?
No.


A molecule can be a dipole. Water is a polar molecule. It has a definite shape (it is not spherical) and because of its molecular structure, the electrons tend to gather at one end (the oxygen atom tugs on them), leaving the other end (the hydrogens) positively charged. You now have a tiny magnet. When many molecules line up, you have a larger, more powerful magnet.
njama
#18
Sep10-07, 05:21 PM
P: 220
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
No.

No.


A molecule can be a dipole. Water is a polar molecule. It has a definite shape (it is not spherical) and because of its molecular structure, the electrons tend to gather at one end (the oxygen atom tugs on them), leaving the other end (the hydrogens) positively charged. You now have a tiny magnet. When many molecules line up, you have a larger, more powerful magnet.
Ok, thank you very much.


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