The Mayan Underworld

Portal to mythical Mayan underworld found in Mexico
Thu Aug 14, 8:18 PM

By Miguel Angel Gutierrez

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexican archeologists have discovered a maze of stone temples in underground caves, some submerged in water and containing human bones, which ancient Mayans believed was a portal where dead souls entered the underworld.

Clad in scuba gear and edging through narrow tunnels, researchers discovered the stone ruins of eleven sacred temples and what could be the remains of human sacrifices at the site in the Yucatan Peninsula.

Cool, shame there are not more pictures.

By the time I was supervising excavations and surveys we were handing the responsibility of uncovering the histories and pre-histories of the first nations back to the first nations. Today there is a higher percentage of First Nation people running museums and even excavating. In the Haida Nation of Haida Guaii... or what we called the Queen Charolotte Islands, there are "watchmen" at every significant site where the Haida had very populous and vibrant villages.edit... if you want to tour these sites, and they are incredible even in the state they're in... you are always under the watchful eye of a Haida nation dude who lives on site in a portable that's been fashioned to look like a miniature longhouse.

Where many do not want to continue talking with me is when I remind them that the Haida often conquered other nations, taking the women back to Haida Gauii and killing all of the men on the spot. When the first nations ask for reparation for the abuse in Residential Schools, churches, and white man's transgressions.... I think its good to air these things out.... but I also think the Salish, Stolo and other nations could use the same dialog with the Haida and perhaps they'd all learn some better negotiating skills and have a better alliance for future economic/community endeavors.

fascinating stuff to hear about!
I assume Haida means the people, and Gauii means Island (it sounds like Hawaii to me but I don't assume there could be any linguistic connection)

15,000 B.C.

Some believe the Haida Gwaii (Queen Charlotte Islands) was first occupied about this time and they called them Xhaaidlagha Gwaayaai which means Islands at the Boundary of the World. The Islands are 90 km from the mainland and can be seen on a clear day. Their arrival therefore had to be via boats. The Haida would later name the 150 plus Islands as Haida Gwaii meaning the Islands of the People. Others called it the Haida Place. It is believed the Haida arrived 8,000 to 13,000 B.C. The ocean levels on the Islands fluctuated by up to 50 feet and did not stabilize until 3,000 B.C. making it difficult to find archeological evidence. It is noteworthy that Haida Gwaii was ice free during the ice age as were many of the islands of southern Alaska. Other coastal areas were ice free 12,000 to 11,000 B.C. maybe earlier. The low water levels produced great grass lands to support mammoth, mastodon and bison that were found on Haida Geaii and Quadra's Island (Vancouver Island).

A mammoth humerus from southern Vancouver Island has been dated to 17,000 YBP,

A bison find on Vancouver Island suggests human hunters killed bison on the Island peninsula Royal Oak, Victoria.

13,300 B.C.

Some contend this is the first Giant Flood of Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon when Glacial Lake Missoula ice dam broke sending 500 cubic miles of water to the Pacific in 48 hours. Others contend these have been going on since 80,000 B.C. The devastation however was profound, as this is more water than Lake Erie and Ontario combined. In some places there was a 1/2 mile high wall of water destroying the people and artifacts down the Columbia River. J. Harlen Brentz (1882-1981) first proposed the Giant Flood theory in 1922 to explain the geological evidence but was laughed at by the Geological Society.

12,000 B.C.

The Fluted Clovis point spearhead used to hunt mammoths appears all over North America. Clovis man has been found in the Peace River, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Washington, and Mexico. This unprecedented form of stone point has the conservatives puzzled, as it requires a very rapid spreading to fit their hypothesis. Conservatives suggest the Clovis Point likely only dates to 11,500 B.C. Another problem with this technology is that few Clovis points are discovered in Alaska and no Clovis points in Siberia except those dated 6,300 B.C. at Uptar which suggests an American to Asia migration. All evidence supports a south to north migration of this technology. The Clovis technology may have migrated from America to Asia. Many conservative scientists resort to science fiction type theories to explain these and other anomalies.

Segments of the Coast Salish people-the ancestors of the Squamish, Burrard, Tsleil-Waututh, Musqueam (Xw'muthk'i'um), Tsawwassen, Coquitlam (Kwayhquitlam), Katzie and Semiahmoo Indian bands-arrive English Bay. They seem to be quite satisfied with the beaches teeming with seafood-they named English Bay Ayyulshun, which means 'soft under feet'. And they liked the forests teaming with wildlife. Not to mention that nearby is the mouth of a big river (Fraser River) emptying into a vast ocean where big, fat, silvery salmon swam by six months out of every year.

Mount St. Helens erupted leaving a time line of pre and post giant floods of Glacial Lake Missoula that left extensive marks in Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon. It is believed that 12 giant floods actually occurred some say between 13,300 B.C. to 9,700 B.C. while others contend they occurred 80,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.

11,500 B.C.

Some believe the Proto-Polynesians are living Haida Gwaii and are called the Old Haida. Speculation is they arrived on the Kuroshio Current from Asia.

Recent DNA analysis suggests that Polynesians, including Tongans, Samoans, Niueans, Cook Islanders, Tahitians, Hawaiians, Marquesans and Māori, exhibit a maternal mitochondrial DNA link to indigenous peoples of the New Guinea Highlands 40,000 years ago (Bryan Sykes - Seven Daughters of Eve, page 133). The paternal Y chromosome also comes from "New Guinea 11,500 years ago - but since that time have evolved quite separately from Melanesians" (see "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes" and "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes (correction)" cited in References). After this period, proto-Polynesian genes exhibit a 9based pair mtDNA deletion common to East Asians, showing a separation from Taiwanese aborigines 6,000 years ago. (See "Melanesian origins of Polynesian Y chromosome") Polynesian population expansion began in isolation in the Pacific 2,000 years ago (see also Melanesian origin of Y chromosomes). One particular DNA haplotype - the human lymphocyte antigen (HLA) Bw48 is commonly found in Polynesian populations, but occurs only sporadically in Melanesia. The only other known population with an appreciable frequency of HLA-Bw48 is that of the North American Indians or more specifically the Tlingit of Alaska. (Susan Serjeantson - Out of Asia - Peopling the Americas and the Pacific Edited by Robert Kirk and Emoke Szathmary 1985). In Polynesia Bw48 co-occurs with A11, - suggesting a variation since Polynesians departed from the people of the Alaskan/Canadian coast. This DNA evidence is supported by cultural and archaeological evidence showing a definite link between Eastern Polynesia and the Tlingit, Kwakuitl and Haida of the islands off Alaska and Canada[citation needed]

How can trading be ruled out, i mean it only needs one small group to manufacture, they could trade, then others copy, i guess an essential and successful tool would be to them as electricity is to us.

The Fluted Clovis point spearhead used to hunt mammoths appears all over North America. Clovis man has been found in the Peace River, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Washington, and Mexico. This unprecedented form of stone point has the conservatives puzzled, as it requires a very rapid spreading to fit their hypothesis. Conservatives suggest the Clovis Point likely only dates to 11,500 B.C. Another problem with this technology is that few Clovis points are discovered in Alaska and no Clovis points in Siberia except those dated 6,300 B.C. at Uptar which suggests an American to Asia migration. All evidence supports a south to north migration of this technology. The Clovis technology may have migrated from America to Asia. Many conservative scientists resort to science fiction type theories to explain these and other anomalies.

Bradley and Stanford argue that at the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, ca 25,000-15,000 radiocarbon years ago, the Iberian peninsula of Europe became a steppe-tundra, forcing Solutrean populations to the coasts. Maritime hunters then traveled northward along the ice margin up the European coast and around the North Atlantic Sea. They point out that the perennial Arctic ice at the time would have formed an ice bridge connecting Europe and North America. Ice margins have intense biological productivity, and would have provided a major food source.

Cultural Similarities

Bradley and Stanford further point out that there are similarities in the stone tools. Bifaces are systematically thinned with an overshot flaking method in both Solutrean and Clovis cultures. Solutrean leaf-shaped points are similar in outline and some (but not all) Clovis construction techniques. Further, Clovis assemblages often include a cylindrical ivory shaft or point made from mammoth tusk or long bones of bison. Other bone tools were often included in both assemblages, such as needles and bone shaft straighteners.

Problems with Solutrean/Clovis

The most prominent opponent of the Solutrean connection is Lawrence Guy Straus. Straus points out that the LGM forced people out of western Europe into southern France and the Iberian peninsula by about 25,000 radiocarbon years ago. There were no people at all living north of the Loire Valley of France during the Last Glacial Maximum, and no people in the southern part of England until after about 12,500 BP. The similarities between Clovis and Solutrean cultural assemblages are far outweighed by the differences. Clovis hunters were not users of marine resources, fish or mammal. Finally, the Solutrean hunter-gatherers used land-based hunting supplemented by littoral and riverine but not oceanic resources.

Most essentially, the Solutreans of the Iberian peninsula lived 5,000 radiocarbon years earlier and 5,000 kilometers directly across the Atlantic from the Clovis hunter-gatherers.

PreClovis and Solutrean

Since the discovery of credible Preclovis sites, Bradley and Stanford now argue for a Solutrean origin of Preclovis culture. The diet of Preclovis is definitely more maritime-oriented, and the dates are closer in time to Solutrean. However, the stone technology is not the same as Clovis, and the discovery of an ivory rhinoceros horn tool at the Yana RHS site in Western Beringia has somewhat lessened the strength of the technology argument.

Balabanova's "Cocaine mummies"

Some have advocated that Ancient Egyptians may have traveled to the New World. Evidence for such claims involves the mystery of the "Cocaine mummies", mummies reported to have contained coca and nicotine.[5] The initial discovery was made by a German toxicologist by the name of Dr. Svetla Balabanova, after examining the mummy of a female priestess called Henut Taui. She states:
The first positive results, of course, were a shock for me. I had not expected to find nicotine and cocaine but that's what happened. I was absolutely sure it must be a mistake.
Follow up tests by way of the hair shaft - performed to rule out contamination - offered the same results. The significance of these finds lie with the fact that both coca and tobacco plants are indigenous to the Americas and thought not to have reached Africa until after the voyage of Christopher Colombus, in 1492.[6][7] Subsequent examination of numerous Sudanese mummies undertaken by Balabanova, mirrored what was found in the mummy of Henut Taui.

I didn't realize there was any evidence of a Polynesia-British Columbia connection. That is some of the most interesting stuff I have heard on PF for many a moon. Quite remarkable!

I don't know much about linguistics. don't know when the Hawaiian Islands are supposed to have been settled. Dont know how fast languages change.

Can't guess when the last contact would have been, if there ever was contact, between Hawaii and the BC islands.

Or maybe some words passed along by way of Tlingit? It all seems very tenuous.

The way I picture it either
1. it is purely accidental that Guaii sounds like Hawaii, and that the Haida are big people (I imagine them like Tongans, good football linesmen)

2. it isn't accidental and there was some recent contact that nobody knows about and the words are actually from the same root! which sounds almost crazy

3. there was some kinship but the common ancestor was over 10,000 years ago and maybe involved Tlingits and the Bering Trek, and in that case it is all so remote I would think that language would have changed beyond all recognition and the two words could not be traced to a common root. But there could still be some traces of linguistic and genetic similarity.

It is confused and only faintly suggestive, but absolutely fascinating!

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Interesting video about the rituals and some shots of the underground temples

http://www.atitlan.net/video/mayan-religion.htm

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Meandering from Mexico to Canada for 2,650 miles, the PCT traverses three states, three national monuments, seven national parks, 25 national forests, and 33 federally mandated wildernesses. Along the way it ascends more than 57 major mountain passes and skirts the shores of countless lakes, tarns, ponds, creeks, and rivers. Scurrying, slithering, foraging, and hunting in the trail’s environments are a wealth of extraordinary creatures – many of which PCT walkers are privileged to glimpse — including rattlesnakes, coyotes, mountain lions, marmots, bears, mountain goats, and elk.

Baywax, I've been menaing to tell you those are great links.

I too loved the story of the two brothers. I'd never heard that tale.