Question about english language.

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct29-09, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by archis

Yes, that's the plus of English. Compered to my language (Latvian) it has far more words and to express yourself. Another big pluses of English it is easy to learn and the words are like therms. I can easily find info in google. But in Latvian I have this problem in witch form should I write the words to find info. Nouns decline into seven cases: nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, instrumental, locative, and vocative. This is a headache. I could say English is more masculine, but Latvian (Balto-Slavic languages) more feminine language. English words are like therms, but Latvian words can be changed in pronunciation to describe feelings, situations.

I've heard from people who find English grammar easy and others who find it difficult. Those who find it difficult are not used to the word order being so important, so I guess it depends on the speaker's linguistic background.

Like all languages, English has its irregular forms, but I always found its relative lack of inflection a plus: no grammatical gender, no noun case inflections except for the weak "Saxon genitive" (as the French call it), an analytic verb tense/mood/aspect system ("I shall have been waiting..) and a progressive aspect. The progressive aspect is important for a reason that I don't find in textbooks. When I say "I eat at 8 o'clock." I'm actually expressing a habitual activity, not an activity that's happening right now. For that I can say "I am eating (so don't bother me)." Other languages don't generally distinguish between these two conditions.

Anyway, for now English is the leading international lingua franca. I can't imagine what language might replace it. French was the former first international language, now it's second (but they know don't that). It won't be Mandarin as some are saying. It won't be any other European language. So what will it be? I'll leave that question open for discussion.

By the way, I'm not familiar with the word "therm" as you're using it. Could you clarify?

**Galteeth** · Oct29-09, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by SW VandeCarr

I've heard from people who find English grammar easy and others who find it difficult. Those who find it difficult are not used to the word order being so important, so I guess it depends on the speaker's linguistic background.

Like all languages, English has its irregular forms, but I always found its relative lack of inflection a plus: no grammatical gender, no noun case inflections except for the weak "Saxon genitive" (as the French call it), an analytic verb tense/mood/aspect system ("I shall have been waiting..) and a progressive aspect. The progressive aspect is important for a reason that I don't find in textbooks. When I say "I eat at 8 o'clock." I'm actually expressing a habitual activity, not an activity that's happening right now. For that I can say "I am eating (so don't bother me)." Other languages don't generally distinguish between these two conditions.

Anyway, for now English is the leading international lingua franca. I can't imagine what language might replace it. French was the former first international language, now it's second (but they know don't that). It won't be Mandarin as some are saying. It won't be any other European language. So what will it be? I'll leave that question open for discussion.

By the way, I'm not familiar with the word "therm" as you're using it. Could you clarify?

I think that in the future, english and spanish will gradually merge, and this combination as well as mandarin will be the two main earth languages.

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct30-09, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Galteeth

I think that in the future, english and spanish will gradually merge, and this combination as well as mandarin will be the two main earth languages.

That would be muy interesante. The majority of the English vocabulary is already derived from Latin, mostly via Norman French, but also directly as you pointed out in an earlier post. Anglo-Saxon words make up a small core of about 5000-10,000 words (depending on how you define a distinct word). Most educated people use (or at least understand) about 30-40,000 words out some 500,000 words in the English language. The second sentence of this post contains: majority, vocabulary, derived, Latin, via, Norman French, directly, pointed, post; all based on Latin roots. The word "in" is common to both English and Latin but has more ancient (PIE?) roots since it also occurs in German.

I don't see Mandarin making major inroads into the rest of the world. Nor do I see countries giving up their national languages. What I do see is an international language for global commerce and trade, the sciences and scholarship in general, diplomacy, and other international activities (including tourism and the internet). English largely serves this purpose now.

http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/oec02/?view=uk

My guess is English will absorb even more words from other languages, gradually acquire a standard phonetic script (as used in dictionaries), but otherwise retain the better qualities that I enumerated. Much of its future development might be done by non-native speakers using English as the basis for an 'International English'. Other possibilities include constructed languages like Esperanto or Interlingua. These are easy to learn and Interlingua has a recognizable vocabulary to people familiar with Latin roots. (And as I indicated above, if you speak English, you are already familiar with a lot of Latin derived words.)

http://esl.about.com/library/weekly/aa040998.htm

**Galteeth** · Oct30-09, 11:02 PM

A follow up question, specifically for non-native english speakers: It seems to me from observation that native english speakers often have more difficulty learning a second language then speakers of other native languages. Why do you think this is? Does it have to do with english having a larger vocabulary and more complex rules to learn?

**CRGreathouse** · Oct31-09, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Galteeth

English is known for its ability to assimilate new words into itself and for its flexibility. As SW pointed out, this makes it good for conveying shades of meaning. It also has a complex history, being originally a germanic language that was influenced by some druidic, the latin of the roman empire and the catholic church, and then the the Norman french. It has also been largely since developed in the cultural melting pot of America.

English is still a Germanic language. (Being a Germanic language has nothing to do with the vocabulary, mind you!) Druidic had almost no influence on the language. The Roman Empire ended long before English split off from the other Low Germanic languages (like German and Frisian). The bastardized Church Latin (a sort of substratum of VL with CL vocabulary) did influence the language, but the technical latin of the day influenced it more.

There's more German in the language than most give it credit for, almost a quarter of the words. About two-thirds is Italic, split roughly evenly between Norman French (as you correctly point out) and Latin. The balance is borrowings from other languages.

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct31-09, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

English is still a Germanic language. (Being a Germanic language has nothing to do with the vocabulary, mind you!)

Certainly English is a Germanic language by ancestry, but I also think it has something to do with vocabulary. It's true the modern Germanic languages don't share very many identical words, but the similarities are recognizable: were, waren; have, haben; Ich, ik (Dutch), I; father, Vater; warm, kalt etc.

What I find interesting is how different modern German is from English in other respects. German spelling is very phonetic, and English?...not exactly. German is highly inflected, English is not. German: inflected for three genders, four cases with adjective agreement by case, number and gender,etc. English: no grammatical gender, minimal case inflection(the Saxon genitive) and mercifully, no adjective-noun agreement.

Spoken German is crisp and clear while the OP finds spoken English often indistinct and difficult to understand. Others have told me the same. I personally can't judge whether it's the speaker or the language. I certainly can't follow a lot of the English lyrics of many popular songs, but German lyrics sound clearer to me.

So maybe English is a Germanic language, but it has wandered a fair distance from modern German.

EDIT: I'd be very interested in your views about the future of English as the leading international language, or whether you believe another language might eventually replace it. If so, what language? (Ref post 20).

**archis** · Oct31-09, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by SW VandeCarr

By the way, I'm not familiar with the word "therm" as you're using it. Could you clarify?

My bad, I meant term.

A follow up question, specifically for non-native english speakers: It seems to me from observation that native english speakers often have more difficulty learning a second language then speakers of other native languages. Why do you think this is?

I think because of 2 points. 1- English is easy compered to other languages. 2- Everyone knows English. So, if you would meat a person from other country you would speak in English and ignore he's language.

I'd be very interested in your views about the future of English as the leading international language, or whether you believe another language might eventually replace it. If so, what language?

As far as I know English is the best. As you said - no grammatical gender, minimal case inflection(the Saxon genitive) and mercifully, no adjective-noun agreement. Such efficiency is essential in our age of information. Does anybody knows similar language +phonetic +clear? However being a international language, the language loses its identity. And one of the things that defines the country and its culture is the language.

Talking about the history of languages I want to brag a little bit :). Latvian and Lithuanian are considered to be the oldest of survived languages in the world (hope its right) and are the most closest of Indo-European languages to Sanskrit. As I studied Hinduism in culture history, I was amazed how many things we have in common.

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct31-09, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by archis

.

As far as I know English is the best. Does anybody knows similar language +phonetic +clear?

I've done a lot of traveling in my working career and I think Malaysian-Bahasa Indonesia (pretty much the same language) has a fairly simple analytic grammar and is said to be easy to learn. The vocabulary is quite foreign to the Western ear, but science-tech terms come through clearly. However I don't think any Eastern language will be an international language. If that sounds Eurocentric, I must say most Asian folks that I met in my travels much preferred to learn English than another Asian language. In particular, English seems far more popular in Japan and South Korea than Mandarin as a second language. There also seems to be an usual interest in classical Latin among some South Korean students! In India, English is much preferred by those whose native language is not Hindi (about half the population).

However being a international language, the language loses its identity. And one of the things that defines the country and its culture is the language.

Yes. That's something native English speakers might not be aware of. I've been told that English is too important to be left to the British and Americans. The language must be saved from its native speakers who thoroughly botched its orthography and continue to defile its integrity with neologisms. (Not my opinion necessarily). International English would have a controlling body (like the French Academy?) to keep the language intelligible for international gatherings of all kinds. Native speakers may come to regard International English as a foreign language!

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=c...5f-SGx7_feKJSg
The Wiki article is pretty good too.

Latvian and Lithuanian are considered to be the oldest of survived languages in the world (hope its right) and are the most closest of Indo-European languages to Sanskrit. As I studied Hinduism in culture history, I was amazed how many things we have in common.

I've read that the Balto-Slavic languages (Latvian, Lithuanian and Old Prussian) may be the closest spoken or attested languages to Proto-IndoEuropean (PIE). But they are probably not be the oldest. I think Basque (a non IE language) may be older. Other extant languages which lack a native written language such as Inuit and the indigenous languages of Australia, Africa and the Americas could be older. It just depends on how much they've changed over time. To say a language is the oldest entails that it hasn't evolved in a substantial way over a long period of time.

**Galteeth** · Nov1-09, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by SW VandeCarr

Yes. That's something native English speakers might not be aware of. I've been told that English is too important to be left to the British and Americans. The language must be saved from its native speakers who thoroughly botched its orthography and continue to defile its integrity with neologisms. (Not my opinion necessarily). International English would have a controlling body (like the French Academy?) to keep the language intelligible for international gatherings of all kinds. Native speakers may come to regard International English as a foreign language!

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I've heard arguments like this from cultural conservatives as well, but I think this would rob english of the feature that makes it s popular. As we have mentioned in this discussion, te unique thing about english is its ability to assimilate new features. If you constrained its evolution, it would lose this feature and stagnate.

**SW VandeCarr** · Nov1-09, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Galteeth

I've heard arguments like this from cultural conservatives as well, but I think this would rob english of the feature that makes it s popular. As we have mentioned in this discussion, te unique thing about english is its ability to assimilate new features. If you constrained its evolution, it would lose this feature and stagnate.

As I said, I don't see national languages disappearing (although some might). Local dialects of English will still flourish in the US, UK and other English speaking countries. Moreover, if some form of an IEL is formalized, it will function as a lingua franca and will need to keep up with the pace of change in the world by adding new words (and phasing out others as obsolete). It stands to reason, however, that an IEL for scientific and business communication will need to follow some standards in order to be intelligible world-wide.

Personally, I'm an Interlingua fan, but I don't see it overcoming the English 'T Rex'. (see the link post 25)