# Charge electric car from dryer plug?

by MTurner
Tags: charge, dryer, electric, plug
 Sci Advisor Thanks PF Gold P: 12,186 It is true that the main problem I foresee is that of Power, rather than Energy distribution. I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. I thought the whole point of going electrical was to locate the energy conversion (generators) in suitable plces and to make them very efficient. In any case, my point about needing enhanced domestic supplies is relevant and the problem is not soluble by just changing the Law.
 P: 336 A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production so as long as we are not charging during business hours it would handle it. so you could charge easily at the mall. just have to do it at 2:00 in the morning...lol dr
P: 856
 Quote by sophiecentaur ... I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. ...
I think this is a very interesting question - has this been discussed here or elsewhere? (trying not to hijack this thread...

edit - I recall mheslep (?) having alot to say on this (?) maybe somewhere in the 20 pages of 'fuel saving thread' or was it somewhere else? There was alot about practical comparisons of miles per gallon and kW-hr.
 Sci Advisor Thanks PF Gold P: 12,186 It would be interesting to know. Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free. Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.
HW Helper
P: 8,953
 Quote by sophiecentaur Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
That's not true.
Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2
And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay.
And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines

Of course hydro would be good, as long as it doesn't involve flooding any farmland or wilderness.
Wind would be ideal, as long as the turbines aren't visible anywhere pretty, or anywhere that could affect birds, or offshore. And it's a pity that solar isn't really practical.

So as long as the power doesn't produce CO2 and doesn't affect the view, or farmers or birds or involve buying fuel from foreigners - then they are right behind electricity generation
Mentor
P: 22,303
 Quote by Averagesupernova I sure haven't seen any washing machines that run on anything except 120V. The code requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Most of the time standard outlets in the U.S. are 15 amp. Seldom any 120V circuits in a residence are greater than this excpet the laundry, one (maybe 2) in the kitchen, and I believe one for the bathroom. Electric clothes dryers have a four prong 240/120 volt plug. The heating element runs on 240V and the motor runs on 120V. I would imagine a gas dryer would run on 120V but could require a dedicated circuit.
Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A.

Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.
Mentor
P: 22,303
 Quote by sophiecentaur Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
No, but it will force the cost and responsibility onto the power company instead of the consumer. The power company will just end up back-charging us through our electric bills, but the rates are regulated too...
Mentor
P: 22,303
 Quote by mgb_phys That's not true. Yes they want to shut down the large coal fired stations that supply a lot of the power but produce CO2 And obviously you don't want nuclear, cos nuclear is bad m'kay. And gas is fine as long as you don't need want to transport LPG in tankers or build pipelines
It is true (in the US and I'd wage in the UK too), otherwise electric cars would never be getting all the press and environmentalist attention they are. In that other thread, the linked study showed an average 27% improvement in emissions by going from an average car to a full electric in the US. With the advent of hybrids as an alternative, there would be a net increase in pollution due to driving an electric car!

It is fine that they are in development because it will take decades for them to become ubiquitous, but coal power is a much bigger and not to mention much easier problem. And it is one that is pretty rarely talked about in the media and not real high on the list for environmentalists. And I bet this is true almost everywhere - heck, Germany decided a few years ago that they would get rid of all their nuclear plants and the result is an increase in coal power. They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.
HW Helper
P: 8,953
 Quote by russ_watters They take credit for a reduction in CO2, though, because of the integration of East Germany.
Germany have a new technique, they are reducing their CO2 emission to Kyoto levels by shipping their nasty lignite coal to Poland, burning it in Polish power stations and shipping the power back.

Most of their new domestic power generation is coming from a gas pipeline form Russia.

ps. I need to put irony warning in bold.
P: 2,529
 Quote by russ_watters Dang, you're right - just checked and most of my circuits are 15A. I have one that says "washer" and it is 20A/120V - That may be both the washer and dryer because I don't see one for the dryer. The heat is from propane, though. My kitchen general power circuit is 20A. Too used to commercial where the minimum is 20A.
Your post brought up something I had forgotten. A furnace such as gas or propane would require a dedicated 120V 20A circuit also. Your heat is from propane, I assume you mean the heat for the dryer right?
PF Gold
P: 3,098
 Quote by sophiecentaur It would be interesting to know. Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free. Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.
The point is that some have much less impact than others.
PF Gold
P: 1,433
Wow. How far do some of you have to drive to get to the mall?

Here are some calculations of my daily commute to and from work:

gas powered
Total distance: 26 miles (ref: odometer)
mpg: 26 mpg (ref: my log)
actual motive energy: 4 kwh (ref: chargecar)
energy consumed: 34.7 kwh (ref: 1 gal = 1.25e8 joules = 34.7 kwh(conversion widget))
efficiency: 0.116 (ref: 4/34.7)
total cost of trip: $2.60 (ref: sign at gas station) current annual cost:$1000 (ref: pocketbook)

now, switching to electric
Total distance: 26 miles
actual motive energy: 4 kwh
energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: a real electric car)
efficiency: 0.8
cost of a kwh: $0.11/kwh(ref: my electric bill) total cost of trip:$0.55
potential annual cost: $210 annual savings:$790
which should be enough to cover the cost of installing a charging station in your garage.

charge time at each end: 20 minutes.(240v 32a = dryer plug)
or 40 minutes at home each night.

And I really think that those of you that routinely drive more than 200 miles per day might want to avoid electric cars. For the time being anyways.

 Charging lithium-ion batteries The charge time of most chargers is about 3 hours.
Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?
PF Gold
P: 3,098
 Quote by OmCheeto .... Or are there batteries out there that can accept a full charge faster than that, that I am not aware of?
Yes, though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.
P: 23,597
 Quote by mheslep the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.
Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.
PF Gold
P: 1,433
 Quote by mheslep Yes, though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.
 Using their new processing technique, the two went on to make a small battery that could be fully charged or discharged in 10 to 20 seconds...
Holy Mary mother of Merry Chistmas everyone that's fast!

hmmmm.... being that I used to personally lug around 312 kilowatt extension cords, I don't see that an 8 minute charge time every 200 miles is much of a problem anymore.

With a second charging plug in the vehicle for low power needs or course. I mean really, who goes home or to work and stays less than 8 minutes?
PF Gold
P: 3,098
 Quote by Borek Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.
Possible, but there's some still some serious drawbacks. A battery backed charging point becomes expensive and thus it can't be distributed every few meters as can be simple 4kW charging points using only the grid. Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator. Third the charging circuitry and mechanical interface on the vehicle side also has to become capable of handling that charge rate and thus it becomes more expensive.

Edit: One solution to this problem was worked out a hundred years ago, at least on small scales for a commercial fleet: NY taxis used a battery exchange system, originated by the electric trolley operators - on your way in two minutes.
PF Gold
P: 1,433
 Quote by mheslep Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator.
That's why they still won't let us Orygoonians pump our own Class 1 flammable liquid, like everyone else.

But I guess that means we're a bit further ahead in infrastructure than the rest of the nation.

 Trainer: Do not touch those shiny metal bits there. Got it? Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss. Trainer: And don't pull this trigger till its latched. Got it? Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss. Trainer: Ok. You're ready. Go pump some trons. Trained tron pumper: Yes boss.
PF Gold
P: 3,098
 Quote by OmCheeto energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: a real electric car)
That's about 0.2 kWh/mile, a bit optimistic.

Here's some EV efficiencies by vehicle type:
Vehicle Class [kWh/mile]
Compact sedan 0.26
Mid-size sedan 0.30
Mid-size SUV 0.38
Full-size SUV 0.46
from Table 1, Page 9 here
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publicatio...ysis_Part1.pdf

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