The "Grassroots movement", and the Tea Party


by Ivan Seeking
Tags: grassroots movement, party
Pattonias
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#19
May24-10, 11:21 AM
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One day we will have a roving band of angry extremist moderates wondering around trying to force everyone to get along with eachother and follow sincible principles that are proposed by both sides. I'll join that group.

I'll be the one spraying the politicians on the nose, and saying "no, no, bad politician" anytime they bring up the statements of an opponent's supporter who is obviously an extremsit and who is making claims that are obviously not representing the party.
IcedEcliptic
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#20
May24-10, 01:00 PM
P: 274
Quote Quote by Nebula815 View Post
That's always the leftist line of thought. When it's leftists protesting, they are "patriotic" and it's grassroots supposedly.

When it's people against a leftwing President protesting, they're "angry" and "irrational."

When the people kick the Republicans out and vote in Democrats, they are sensible. When they kick the Democrats out, they're angry and irrational (1994 was known as the year of the "angry white man" when the Democrats got slaughtered in Congress).

The fears are not irrational. With the country in a steep recession, Obama has decided to gun up spending, ramming through a massive healthcare bill which the evidence shows will not work and will cost an extraordinary amount of money. He also wants to ram through carbon cap-and-trade and so forth.

The way the healthcare bill was done and the levels of debt this country is racking up with no apparent intention of trying to bring spending under control, is a very legitimate concern. Once a nation's debt-to-GDP ratio reaches 100%, that begins to have a negative effect on economic growth.

The larger the debt gets, the larger a portion of the federal budget must be devoted to paying the interest on the debt as well.

Moody's has hinted that it may have to downgrade the U.S. debt eventually even. The way this administration is seeking to enlarge the government, the debt, this administration's handling of terrorism issues, the administration's completely soft stance on Iran, etc...have a lot of people extremely concerned.

Have you looked at the financial and economic health of left-leaning states like California, Massachusettes, New York, and New Jersey recently? Or the financial and economic health of the European nations which Obama is trying to model the U.S. after?



Depends. The Tea Party represents much of what the Republican party is supposed to be, but is not. The people voted for Obama for change; what they were too ignorant to realize was Obama was going to be more of the same. The Republicans spent their eight years under Bush spending a ton of money. People were tired of that, and in their ignorance, elected in Obama, not paying attention to what his beliefs were.

And now they are shocked, SHOCKED, that he is outspending the Republicans. Jay Leno has a new skit he's been running called "What Did You Think Was Gonna Happen!?" which shows people doing very stupid things, then seemingly stunned when what should have been obvious happens.

With Obama, I feel this way towards many people. I mean you have Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid heading a Democrat Congress and then they elect in Barack Obama, and are now shocked at how he is governing, to which I say, "WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GONNA HAPPEN!?" That the Democrats and Obama would spend less than Bush and the Republicans!? BWAHAHAHAHA!!

The Democrats, and Obama, however, completely mis-read his election as a signal to govern to the Left. It was either Newsweek or Time that had a cover title: "We're All Socialists Now: The Perils and Promises In the New Era of Big Government. Sean Wilentz, the historian, wrote a book: The Age of Reagan: 1974 - 2008 The media talked of how we had reached the "end" of the era of Reagan. The book Two Trillion Dollar Meltdown talks about how every thirty to fifty years or so, the pendulum seems to swing towards the other direction. With FDR, it swung left and stayed there for about fifty years.

With Ronald Reagan, it swung to the right. With the financial crash and election of Obama, the Democrats and the media took it that the pendulum had swung to the Left, that the people had elected in Obama to usher in a new era of FDR-style big government.

But they were wrong, very wrong. The people did not elect in Obama or the Democrats for any such thing. The era of Reagan did not end, it's that the Republicans, who always claim Reagan as their icon, went and spent like drunken sailors, then had a bunch of corruption issues (also just anti-Bush sentiment from many because of the Iraq War).

So the people elected in Democrats in Congress then elected in Obama by a standard margin (moderates who decided to take a gamble and elect Obama, assuming he was far more moderate than he is).

Well Obama has since been trying to govern to the hard Left. And you can't govern to the hard Left in what is a center-right country. Obama would be fine in France, but this is the United States. If you try to govern to the hard Left here, you're going to get a reaction, and that is what the Tea Parties are.
That is a lot of unsubstantiated talk. How is Obama to the "far left"?
Nebula815
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#21
May24-10, 01:07 PM
P: 18
Quote Quote by IcedEcliptic View Post
That is a lot of unsubstantiated talk. How is Obama to the "far left"?
What do you mean how is he to the far left? What do you call being a shill for the unions, completely rejecting the Chamber of Commerce, ramming through government healthcare, seeking tax increases in the name of "fairness," government takeover of the student-loan business, wanting government to control energy via cap-and-trade, upping the EPA's budget by 10X the normal rate of increase, seeking Net Neutrality legislation (which is supported by socialists), seeking union card check, etc...not to mention his background with some very far-left people and having some very far-left people in his administration.

There is nothing centrist about the man.
IcedEcliptic
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#22
May24-10, 01:09 PM
P: 274
Quote Quote by Nebula815 View Post
What do you mean how is he to the far left? What do you call being a shill for the unions, completely rejecting the Chamber of Commerce, ramming through government healthcare, seeking tax increases in the name of "fairness," government takeover of the student-loan business, wanting government to control energy via cap-and-trade, upping the EPA's budget by 10X the normal rate of increase, seeking Net Neutrality legislation (which is supported by socialists), seeking union card check, etc...not to mention his background with some very far-left people and having some very far-left people in his administration.

There is nothing centrist about the man.
You say all of this, but I am not seeing any evidence provided for your claims. That is what I mean.
Nebula815
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#23
May24-10, 01:39 PM
P: 18
Quote Quote by IcedEcliptic View Post
You say all of this, but I am not seeing any evidence provided for your claims. That is what I mean.
The former chairman of the SEIU sits on his Deficit Commission. You could also look at his donations from unions. He did not invite the Chamber of Commerce when he invited the unions to discuss ways to create jobs and repair the economy. He rammed through government healthcare via reconciliation, which also included a takeover of the student loan industry. Carbon cap-and-trade would allow the government to control the amounts of carbon released, and since around 60% of our energy is from coal, it would mean controlling the amount of energy used by the economy overall.

The EPA's budget normally increases by 3% each year, but under Obama, it was upped by 34%: http://earth911.com/news/2009/05/14/...by-34-percent/

Net Neutrality legislation is claimed to be needed to increase freedom and innovation on the Internet, but historically more government regulation over something does no such thing, and NN is supported by socialists such as Ben Scott of the organization Free Press.

Obama's support for union card check is one of the primary reasons the unions gave him so much support

And as for background, well that has been played to death already (Reverand Wright, Frank Marshall Davis, etc...) along with people his administration had (Van Jones, Anita Dunn (who said Mao Zedong, a man who implemented the greatest degree of mass conformity in human history, was an inspiration to her to be an individual)).
IcedEcliptic
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#24
May24-10, 02:48 PM
P: 274
Quote Quote by Nebula815 View Post
The former chairman of the SEIU sits on his Deficit Commission. You could also look at his donations from unions. He did not invite the Chamber of Commerce when he invited the unions to discuss ways to create jobs and repair the economy. He rammed through government healthcare via reconciliation, which also included a takeover of the student loan industry. Carbon cap-and-trade would allow the government to control the amounts of carbon released, and since around 60% of our energy is from coal, it would mean controlling the amount of energy used by the economy overall.

The EPA's budget normally increases by 3% each year, but under Obama, it was upped by 34%: http://earth911.com/news/2009/05/14/...by-34-percent/

Net Neutrality legislation is claimed to be needed to increase freedom and innovation on the Internet, but historically more government regulation over something does no such thing, and NN is supported by socialists such as Ben Scott of the organization Free Press.

Obama's support for union card check is one of the primary reasons the unions gave him so much support

And as for background, well that has been played to death already (Reverand Wright, Frank Marshall Davis, etc...) along with people his administration had (Van Jones, Anita Dunn (who said Mao Zedong, a man who implemented the greatest degree of mass conformity in human history, was an inspiration to her to be an individual)).
The EPA, which was gutted to the tune of far more than such an increase in previous decades? For the rest, you are once again providing no evidence. I am not surprised at the union issue, as from my understanding, the US Democrats have been in the pockets of unions and industry, as opposed to the US Republicans who are in the pockets of industry and private donations. How is one less crooked than the other, and how is one of those "left" or "right"? Both just seem Bought to me.

Other than the usual political slights that the party out of power always whines about and experiences, you have a lot to back up given the few pages of ranting in various threads, and this especially that you have offered. I don't care if the man has a picture of Mao tatooed in his eyelids, if he doesn't enact a "cultural revolution". Show me what he has DONE, that is so negative, so far left? He hasn't moved in a substantial way to immigration, gay rights, pulling out of Afghanistan, he took the most money from BP in 2008... sorry, he seems pretty standard to me. I suppose that after W. he might seem left, but then it takes a lot to compete with two wars and trashing the US economy through deregulation.

So, unless you can show evidence and some measure of perspective, the only shill I see here is you, unwitting or not.
Nebula815
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#25
May24-10, 03:08 PM
P: 18
Quote Quote by IcedEcliptic View Post
The EPA, which was gutted to the tune of far more than such an increase in previous decades?
Interesting point, will concede there, didn't know that.

For the rest, you are once again providing no evidence. I am not surprised at the union issue, as from my understanding, the US Democrats have been in the pockets of unions and industry, as opposed to the US Republicans who are in the pockets of industry and private donations. How is one less crooked than the other, and how is one of those "left" or "right"? Both just seem Bought to me.
You are correct, neither one is really for the people, but I am not saying Republicans who are in the pockets of Big Business are any good either. As for the others, I explained them quite clearly.

Other than the usual political slights that the party out of power always whines about and experiences, you have a lot to back up given the few pages of ranting in various threads, and this especially that you have offered. I don't care if the man has a picture of Mao tatooed in his eyelids, if he doesn't enact a "cultural revolution". Show me what he has DONE, that is so negative, so far left?
He is limited in what he has been able to do because the people do not want so much of it. He tried to pass government healthcare and almost failed at that. Now they are working on financial regulation.

He hasn't moved in a substantial way to immigration, gay rights, pulling out of Afghanistan,
Gay rights would be foolish to pursue right now, as the Congress would be tied up with that as opposed to more important things.

Immigration is but one issue out of many they wanted to pursue, such as healthcare, financial reform, cap-and-trade, union card check, etc...you can only do so much at a time.

On Afghanistan, I really don't get this one. For years, the Democrats have said that Afghanistan was the proper war, the justified war, that it was Iraq that was the pointless war and that Iraq was drawing resources away from the "proper" war, Afghanistan. Now Obama is President and the Democrats act as if he should just pull right out of Afghanistan...?

he took the most money from BP in 2008... sorry, he seems pretty standard to me.
That's because in addition to unions, trial lawyers, and the environmental lobby, Democrats are in the pockets of Big Business a good deal a well. Wall Street also gave Obama a lot of money. However BP is a company with a "green" agenda as of late as well, which might be tied to their support of Obama.

I suppose that after W. he might seem left, but then it takes a lot to compete with two wars and trashing the US economy through deregulation.
The economy wasn't trashed through deregulation. That is grossly oversimplifying it. The economy went down due to a perfect storm of factors, a particular one being excessive government in certain areas.

So, unless you can show evidence and some measure of perspective, the only shill I see here is you, unwitting or not.
One can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink. I don't know where you get the idea that running on a platform of union card check, cap-and-trade, government healthcare, tax increases, massive spending, etc...is not to the left.

Your claims about "evidence" I do not understand, as most of this stuff is common knowledge about Obama to anyone who has looked at him.
IcedEcliptic
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#26
May24-10, 03:15 PM
P: 274
Quote Quote by Nebula815 View Post
Interesting point, will concede there, didn't know that.



You are correct, neither one is really for the people, but I am not saying Republicans who are in the pockets of Big Business are any good either. As for the others, I explained them quite clearly.



He is limited in what he has been able to do because the people do not want so much of it. He tried to pass government healthcare and almost failed at that. Now they are working on financial regulation.



Gay rights would be foolish to pursue right now, as the Congress would be tied up with that as opposed to more important things.

Immigration is but one issue out of many they wanted to pursue, such as healthcare, financial reform, cap-and-trade, union card check, etc...you can only do so much at a time.

On Afghanistan, I really don't get this one. For years, the Democrats have said that Afghanistan was the proper war, the justified war, that it was Iraq that was the pointless war and that Iraq was drawing resources away from the "proper" war, Afghanistan. Now Obama is President and the Democrats act as if he should just pull right out of Afghanistan...?



That's because in addition to unions, trial lawyers, and the environmental lobby, Democrats are in the pockets of Big Business a good deal a well. Wall Street also gave Obama a lot of money. However BP is a company with a "green" agenda as of late as well, which might be tied to their support of Obama.



The economy wasn't trashed through deregulation. That is grossly oversimplifying it. The economy went down due to a perfect storm of factors, a particular one being excessive government in certain areas.



One can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink. I don't know where you get the idea that running on a platform of union card check, cap-and-trade, government healthcare, tax increases, massive spending, etc...is not to the left.

Your claims about "evidence" I do not understand, as most of this stuff is common knowledge about Obama to anyone who has looked at him.
By evidence, I mean context which allows one to say, "ah, cap-and-trade is silly" or "34% up for the EPA is still pissing in the ocean". This is PF, when you make claims, common knowledge and sense doesn't cut it. You literally NEED to site, it is in that bit of text you agreed to when you signed up.

Now, let me tell you, I am a naturalized US citizen, but not originally from the US. I don't have the same perspective as you, so really a lot of this I have no way of knowing or trusting without sourcing it. You are making the claims, so you get to back them up. If I wanted to claim that bush went into Iraq for oil, you'd be right to call ME on that and demand evidence... which I don't think I could find. Do you see what I mean?
Nebula815
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#27
May24-10, 03:29 PM
P: 18
Quote Quote by IcedEcliptic View Post
By evidence, I mean context which allows one to say, "ah, cap-and-trade is silly"
You need a "source" to understand that cap-and-trade will give the government control over the energy usage of the economy when coal is one of the primary sources of energy in the United States?

or "34% up for the EPA is still pissing in the ocean".
What that would show is where his ideology lies.

This is PF, when you make claims, common knowledge and sense doesn't cut it. You literally NEED to site, it is in that bit of text you agreed to when you signed up.
You need to cite things that are obscure forms of knowledge. No one should have to cite the things I am saying. Things you cite are if you claim for example why the healthcare bill won't work. Not the fact that Congress had to use reconciliation to pass it.

Now, let me tell you, I am a naturalized US citizen, but not originally from the US. I don't have the same perspective as you, so really a lot of this I have no way of knowing or trusting without sourcing it. You are making the claims, so you get to back them up.
I think you are simply trying to draw attention away from the arguments I am making here. Nothing I have said thus far requires sourcing, unless you've been living under a rock. Would you also need sourcing to know that Bush was not for cap-and-trade? Or that Bush signed the Patriot Act? Some things should not require sourcing.

If I wanted to claim that bush went into Iraq for oil, you'd be right to call ME on that and demand evidence... which I don't think I could find. Do you see what I mean?
Sure that would need a source, because no where did the administration ever talk about that or list that as a reason.
Ivan Seeking
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#28
May24-10, 10:32 PM
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magpies
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#29
May24-10, 11:00 PM
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That guys getting old in sooo many ways.
NeoDevin
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#30
May24-10, 11:02 PM
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Quote Quote by magpies View Post
That guys getting old in sooo many ways.
Beck or Black? (or both?)
Ivan Seeking
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#31
May24-10, 11:46 PM
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Quote Quote by magpies View Post
That guys getting old in sooo many ways.
I thought he made the point pretty well. Perhaps Beck should quit giving him so much material to chose from.

The really sad thing is that a comedy show has more credibility than a show alleged to be serious. Glenn Beck overdosed on tea, long ago.

"If they want their movement to be more than a wave that crashes on the beach and then recedes back into the ocean, leaving nothing behind but empty sand, they should stop the 'gloom talk,'" Bennett continued. "These are not the worst times we have ever faced, nor is the Constitution under serious threat."
- Ousted GOP Sen. Bob Bennett
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...o-jimmy-carter

What I think Senator Bennett fails to realize is that the claims he dismisses are the basis for the Tea Party movement. The Tea Party is driven by delusions, fantasy, and irrational fears. Consider for example the objections to the bailouts. GET A GRIP! We had no choice. It is irrational to object to the only course of action available to us, if we are to avoid a national and global economic collapse. The objections of the tea drinkers are just plain looney. Yes, the bailouts stunk. Yes, the deficit is a huge concern. No one disputes those facts. But the position of the movement becomes irrational when they assume that, they, and only they, understand this. We get it. Obama gets it. Geithner gets it. Bernanke gets it. We ALL get it! Quit acting like a bunch of pompous fools.

The tea drinkers suffer from the delusion that they, and only THEY, want to save the economy. Only they understand that we cannot continue on the spending trajectory of recent years. Frankly, it is not only lame, but personally insulting, everytime I talk with a tea drinker who thinks that you have to watch Glenn Beck in order to understand this. Glenn Beck understand very little about anything. He is a joke. He is a clown. But he is a very sad clown because he doesn't know he's a clown.

Do you tea drinkers really think Obama wants to ruin his daughter's lives by destroying the US economy? Is anyone really so gullible that they believe that? Turn off Fox News and get a life.
magpies
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#32
May24-10, 11:58 PM
P: 229
We'll I don't really even know much about glenn beck honestly. From what I understand he is in the entertainment industry so I can only expect him to act crazy... But to think the same old jokes told the same way over and over is funny seems even more crazy. I think black should try to come up with something new that's all. I mean at least he could have dressed up like a nazi or something...
IcedEcliptic
IcedEcliptic is offline
#33
May25-10, 12:33 AM
P: 274
Quote Quote by Nebula815 View Post
You need a "source" to understand that cap-and-trade will give the government control over the energy usage of the economy when coal is one of the primary sources of energy in the United States?



What that would show is where his ideology lies.



You need to cite things that are obscure forms of knowledge. No one should have to cite the things I am saying. Things you cite are if you claim for example why the healthcare bill won't work. Not the fact that Congress had to use reconciliation to pass it.



I think you are simply trying to draw attention away from the arguments I am making here. Nothing I have said thus far requires sourcing, unless you've been living under a rock. Would you also need sourcing to know that Bush was not for cap-and-trade? Or that Bush signed the Patriot Act? Some things should not require sourcing.



Sure that would need a source, because no where did the administration ever talk about that or list that as a reason.
Rules are rules, I suggest you read the ones here. You source, or you don't post.
magpies
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#34
May25-10, 12:35 AM
P: 229
What is he suppost to source I'll find it for him im bored...
Ivan Seeking
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#35
May25-10, 12:43 AM
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Just to be perfectly clear: It is my position that the tea drinkers are essentially intellectual cowards; that they are unwilling to face the truth. They cannot accept that our problems are tremendously difficult; not solved with simple seat-of-the-pants solutions. The movement is appealing because it caters to the ego-driven delusion that our problems could easily be solved if we would just put Joe Sixpack in charge. It is a refusal to accept that the world really is complicated and they don't understand it.
IcedEcliptic
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#36
May25-10, 12:43 AM
P: 274
Quote Quote by magpies View Post
What is he suppost to source I'll find it for him im bored...
Just read over the last few pages, itemize his various claims and find evidence that they are factual and not meaningless campaign rhetoric, or somehow spun. If someone told me that W. stole an election, I'd ask for evidence of that too.


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