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Difference b/w Air/Land launched missiles

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#19
Sep30-10, 02:01 PM
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^^Thnx now I understood.
mugaliens
#20
Oct5-10, 03:32 AM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Supersonic cruise missiles aren't all that common, but tend to use rocket-boosted ramjets.
Supersonic cruise missiles do not exist. Supersonic missiles certainly exist, but they're all rockets, from the relatively small and short-range Mach 2.5 Aim-9 Sidewinder to the medium-range AIM-54 Phoenix and the old B-52 SRAMs to long-range ICBMs.
russ_watters
#21
Oct5-10, 05:40 AM
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Quote Quote by mugaliens View Post
Supersonic cruise missiles do not exist. Supersonic missiles certainly exist, but they're all rockets, from the relatively small and short-range Mach 2.5 Aim-9 Sidewinder to the medium-range AIM-54 Phoenix and the old B-52 SRAMs to long-range ICBMs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile#Categories
minger
#22
Oct5-10, 06:26 AM
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Quote Quote by mugaliens View Post
Supersonic cruise missiles do not exist. Supersonic missiles certainly exist, but they're all rockets, from the relatively small and short-range Mach 2.5 Aim-9 Sidewinder to the medium-range AIM-54 Phoenix and the old B-52 SRAMs to long-range ICBMs.
That's not true.

OK, I had something typed up, but then realized the missile wasn't listed that wiki website. So, for any confidentiality sake, I'll keep my mouth shut.
mugaliens
#23
Oct12-10, 12:35 PM
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Poorly written Wikipedia article and more poorly written section.

Let's take the Brahmos as an example. 290 km range at Mach 2.9. That's a 4.9 min time of flight. That's not a "cruise missile," regardless of who chooses to call it that. That's an attack missile, and the velocities, ranges, and time of flight are roughly in the ballpark of the U.S. old SRAMs, which stand for Short-Range Attack Missile. Meanwhile, traditional cruise missiles have ranges measured in the thousands of kilometers, not hundreds.

If they're calling it a "cruise missile" they're doing so for political purposes, as "attack" sounds so war-like...

Realisticially, though, is there any sharp demarcation between a cruise missile and an attack missile? Not really, and all cruise missiles are designed to attack their targets.
minger
#24
Oct12-10, 02:58 PM
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Quote Quote by mugaliens View Post
If they're calling it a "cruise missile" they're doing so for political purposes, as "attack" sounds so war-like...
Often times "Standoff" is used now, as in JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile)
mugaliens
#25
Oct12-10, 05:36 PM
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Quote Quote by minger View Post
Often times "Standoff" is used now, as in JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile)
I find this to be a more accurate term for shorter range, and particularly much faster missiles with shorter time of flight than "cruise."
boneh3ad
#26
Oct12-10, 05:58 PM
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Quote Quote by mugaliens View Post
I find this to be a more accurate term for shorter range, and particularly much faster missiles with shorter time of flight than "cruise."
That isn't really what standoff means. In terms of missiles, standoff is more of a range thing, meaning that the missile can be launched from a range that allows the attacker to evade return fire.
russ_watters
#27
Oct12-10, 10:23 PM
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Quote Quote by mugaliens View Post
Poorly written Wikipedia article and more poorly written section....

That's not a "cruise missile," regardless of who chooses to call it that. That's an attack missile...
Well it seemed like you were saying supersonic jet powered missiles don't exist - when clearly they do, whether we call them cruise missiles or something else.

And you are implying that the words "supersonic" and "cruise missile" don't even belong in the same sentence, but it's not just the wiki that uses the term. For example, the US DOD has an active program called the "Joint SuperSonic Cruise Missile": http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ions/jsscm.htm

And:
Realisticially, though, is there any sharp demarcation between a cruise missile and an attack missile? Not really, and all cruise missiles are designed to attack their targets.
Well right: the SLAM *is* a cruise missile. So basically, you're just arguing against a term that is real but you don't like it. Well, you don't need to like it for it to be real.
boneh3ad
#28
Oct12-10, 11:01 PM
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If a supersonic missile isn't a cruise missile but an attack missile, then what do you call a hypersonic missile, mugaliens?
JaredJames
#29
Oct13-10, 05:17 AM
P: 3,387
I have to agree with mugs on this one, the term cruise doesn't lend itself to a missile with such a short flight time.

If it travelled at this speed for a sustained period then yes, but by their definition the F22 attacking a target 100km away could be claimed to be using cruise missiles.

This to me sounds like political correctness for misiles.
boneh3ad
#30
Oct13-10, 08:06 AM
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It really has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with the mission of the missile. Originally, you had short-range, lightweight missiles fired from planes or the ground that were tasked mainly with shooting down fast-moving targets. However, once they developed technology to put much larger payloads on board and fly them over longer distances and take out slower and larger targets, then the mission of these missiles had changed and they changed to name accordingly. It really doesn't have much to do with the term "cruise" in a traditional aerospace sense. These supersonic cruise missiles fulfill the same mission as a traditional cruise missile, and therefore it isn't ludicrous to continue calling them cruise missiles.
JaredJames
#31
Oct13-10, 08:24 AM
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For the last week I have used my mobile to post on this site (all I've done so far as computing goes), it has fulfilled the same 'mission' as my laptop. I can call it a laptop if I like, but it doesn't make it so. They are two distinct items completing the same tasks.

The PC statement wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, although I do think there is an aspect of it when it comes to naming things such as missiles. To downplay the role so to speak.
boneh3ad
#32
Oct13-10, 09:51 AM
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Right, but the real role of ANY weapon is to attack. I don't think that fact is lost on anyone.

Quote Quote by jarednjames
For the last week I have used my mobile to post on this site (all I've done so far as computing goes), it has fulfilled the same 'mission' as my laptop. I can call it a laptop if I like, but it doesn't make it so. They are two distinct items completing the same tasks.
However, if you wanted, you could call both of them forum posting devices and be completely correct. Still, that isn't the point. The fact that makes computers and cell phones different from missiles in this case is that computers and cell phones each have many different functions. Computers can post on forums but can do a plethora of other things, as I am sure you are aware. Cell phones can also post on forums, but can make calls and do their own collection of tasks. Each of these machines has a very different purpose for being.

With missiles, on the other hand, you have one purpose - to destroy. Whether it is going Mach 0.8 or Mach 2.8, a cruise missile is moving a relatively large payload from point A to point B through the atmosphere to hit a relatively slow or stationary target. The only difference is how fast it is moving. The payload size and delivery method relative to other missiles is what makes it a cruise missile.
JaredJames
#33
Oct13-10, 10:38 AM
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Quote Quote by boneh3ad View Post
However, if you wanted, you could call both of them forum posting devices and be completely correct.
I'm going to use this point to answer the whole post.

It would be more apt to call both missile types 'attack missiles'. That would be completely correct because, as you have pointed out, that is what all missiles do. However, given that this missile does not 'cruise', it's like me calling my phone a laptop. Although it completes the same job, it does so in a different manner.

There is a difference between supersonic, sustained flight (or supersonic cruise) and going supersonic for a short time. This is why they are now promoting the fact the newest fighter aircraft have supersonic cruise capability and not just 'can go supersonic'.

The fact they have used this terminology, I don't know. But it doesn't make it correct.
boneh3ad
#34
Oct13-10, 11:11 AM
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They are using the terminology based on the actual definition of cruise, not the flight definition of cruise.

From Merriam-Webster:
: to move or proceed speedily, smoothly, or effortlessly

The idea behind calling it a cruise missile is because it is flying relatively straight, long distances moving a large payload. You don't see them doing a ton of crazy maneuvers or turns; they usually have fairly easy flight paths and simply "cruise" from point A to point B with their comparatively large payload and accomplish their mission.

It isn't really a misnomer, it is just confusing if you try to think of it in terms of flight regimes. If you think of it in terms of simply what the word cruise means, it makes perfect sense.
JaredJames
#35
Oct13-10, 11:34 AM
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cruise
to fly, drive, or sail at a constant speed that permits maximum operating efficiency for sustained travel.
Now unless the missile is doing none of the above (fly/drive/sail) then the definition applies. (As far as I'm aware, the whole point of a cruise missile is that it's essentially a pilotless aircraft - well bomb)

I have also noted that mirriam webster is the only place I've seen that particular definition (not saying it's wrong). This is just arguing semantics now.

I would however, like to see a reference which shows which definition they are using.
boneh3ad
#36
Oct13-10, 11:43 AM
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Well your link provides "to travel at a moderately fast, easily controllable speed" which would fall into the same category of making sense for a cruise missile but not in a flight regime sense.

Cruise missiles were probably named by a layperson who used the lay definition of cruise, not the technical definition as understood by a pilot.


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