Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants


by gmax137
Tags: earthquake, japan, nuclear
AntonL
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#811
Mar22-11, 05:59 AM
P: 521
Quote Quote by jensjakob View Post
AntonL, I think youre wrong. Servicetunnel goes towards the Northwest.

Reactor 1 is at the North?

And landside is on the West?

Then Servicetunnel goes to the Northwest?
jensjakob, I do think the IAEA will have it correct check here top left hand corner of slide 1
TCups
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#812
Mar22-11, 06:08 AM
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Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
jensjakob, I do think the IAEA will have it correct check here top left hand corner of slide 1
Yes, apologies again. My typing fingers didn't keep up with my mind. Unit 3 is north of Unit 4. Unit 3's SFP is on the southeast corner of the building, more or less, but the buildings do not set on a true North-South-East-West axis as my diagram would seem to suggest. Obviously the ocean side is to the east. None the less, the "anatomy" of the building with respect to the location of the shaft, SFP, and core containment and therefore, the logic of the blast coming through the SFP, NOT the equipment pool holds up, which is the point I was, in my imperfect way, trying to make here.
jensjakob
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#813
Mar22-11, 06:09 AM
P: 123
The picture is rotated.

I google mapped it. Please review the orientation.

http://maps.google.dk/maps?f=q&sourc...67344567820820
dgdd
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#814
Mar22-11, 06:41 AM
P: 2
Quoting http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/wo...22nuclear.html:
In 2000, a whistle-blower at a separate company that was contracted
to inspect the reactors told regulators about
cracks in the stainless steel shrouds that cover reactor
cores at Fukushima?s Daiichi plant.
But regulators simply told the company to look into the issue,
allowing the reactors to keep operating.
[...] He said the prefecture itself
and the communities hosting the nuclear plants did not learn about the
cracks until regulators publicized them
in 2002, more than two years after the whistle-blower reported the cracks. [...] whistle-blowers gave
information to Fukushima Prefecture showing
that the company had falsified inspection records and hid flaws over
16 years to save on repair costs.
TCups
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#815
Mar22-11, 07:02 AM
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Quote Quote by jensjakob View Post
The picture is rotated.

I google mapped it. Please review the orientation.

http://maps.google.dk/maps?f=q&sourc...67344567820820
REGARDING THE DAMAGE AND MECHANISM OF DAMAGE TO UNIT 3

How unfortunate that my error on the N-S label (now corrected) or whether or not the buildings are in a true N-S-E-W orientation or somewhat askew misdirects the discussion. In general, the MAJOR POINT is that it is the corner nearest the SE of Building 3 where the SFP is located.

If one assumes that the long-distance video of the explosion was taken from high ground to the west, instead of out to sea, to the east, then the initial explosion was directed to the right, or generally to the south and toward Bldg 4, then it is the south wall of Bldg 3 that is blown out by the initial explosion and the north wall of Bldg 3 that is destroyed by the overhead crane.

If we agree on those points, then the pictures of the damage I see seem to make sense and reinforce the sequence of events I suggested and outlined earlier:

1) the hydrogen & oxygen from hydrolysis of hot steam in the presence of zirconium comes from the core of the reactor, and indicates at least some damage to the core.

2) the hydrogen accumulated in the primary (dry wall) containment and at relatively low pressure, could escape from the drywell cap.

3) the force of the earthquake alone could have sloshed out significant amounts of water from the SFP, irrespective of boiling, evaporation, or loss of circulation pumps

4) there is a transfer chute and a mechanical gate mechanism connecting the drywall containment to the SFP used to transfer fuel rods, underwater, from the core to the SFP.

5) the pneumatic seals on the gate are inflatable and would be compromised by a prolonged loss of power.

6) a lower water level in the SFP, and thus, loss of hydrostatic pressure behind the gate (outside of the primary, drywall containment) would further compromise the strength and integrity of the gate if a blast occurred from within the drywall containment

7) If the force of a blast exiting the primary containment were directed sideways, through that gate and the transfer chute, then the reinforced floor and walls of the SFP would function as an acoustic lens, directing much of the force of the blast (and perhaps a large, expanding volume of steam from the vaporized water which remained in the lower portion of the SFP) upward.

8) there may or may not have been a secondary explosion of hydrogen leaked into the upper portion of Bldg 3. (A primary explosion of that sort, external to the containment in the upper portion of the building, probably occurred in Bldg 1).

9) the blast blew portions of the south wall of Bldg 3 into Bldg 4's north wall. "Shrapnel" from the Bldg 3 blast may have initially damaged Bldg 4 leading to the fire(s) that occurred in Bldg 4 thereafter. (questionable, not confirmed by satellite photos. See Anton's later post, #820)

10) Blast damage from Bldg 3 can also be clearly seen involving the roof of the steam turbine buildings to the east and to at least one of the additional buildings to the west. A large portion of the crane fell, damaging the adjoining building structure below, to the north.

11) It is not possible to tell with certainty if the drywell containment plug atop Reactor 3 has been blown skyward. Perhaps not, the evidence being lack of conclusive damage to the roof girder structure directly over the apparent location of the plug, but instead, primarily over the SFP.

12) If there are fuel rods in the photos of the damage and debris atop Bldg 3's east side, then it appears more likely to me that they came from the SFP of 3, not the reactor core. Certainly any remaining water in the SFP would act to transfer the force of the blast (shock wave) more efficiently into the submerged portion of the pool and the rods therein, and the floor of the pool would reflect that shock wave, water, steam, and maybe spent fuel rod assemblies skyward.

13) Steam appeared to be venting, in a jet, into the region of the damaged SFP of Unit 3 after the blast (the helicopter flies through this cloud of steam). The pressure in the primary containment of Unit 3 has dropped. Radioactivity levels especially around unit 3 have risen. Black smoke was later seen rising from the same region.

14) It is very likely that the primary drywall containment of Unit 3 and not unlikely that the Unit 3 reactor vessel or pipes or valves connected to the RV have been damaged, initially venting steam, then, perhaps something else burning within the RV.

15) from the available photos, such as they are, I cannot confirm that there are fuel rod assemblies or water remaining in the SFP of unit 3.





Comments or corrections?
jensjakob
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#816
Mar22-11, 07:05 AM
P: 123
TCups - quite plausible I would say.
TCups
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#817
Mar22-11, 07:18 AM
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P: 494
FORCE OF EXPLOSION AT UNIT 3?

Does anyone have a source for seismographic recordings at the time of the explosion at Unit 3? If so, it may be an objective way to assess the size of the explosion relative to, perhaps, the explosion at Unit 1.
artax
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#818
Mar22-11, 07:44 AM
P: 159
just found some more video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX_Zdh8fCic
AntonL
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#819
Mar22-11, 07:45 AM
P: 521
Quote Quote by TCups View Post
9) the blast blew portions of the south wall of Bldg 3 into Bldg 4's north wall. "Shrapnel" from the Bldg 3 blast may have initially damaged Bldg 4 leading to the fire(s) that occurred in Bldg 4 thereafter.
Comments or corrections?
First: regarding 9 - Reactor 4 looks in a pretty good shape to me after explosion of reactor 3
Attached Thumbnails
u234.jpg  
AntonL
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#820
Mar22-11, 08:00 AM
P: 521
BLAST MECHANISM AT FUKUSHIMA

Observed are three catastrophic explosions Unit 1, 3 and 4 with pretty much the same
consequence and Unit 2 had a small Hydrogen explosion that was contained with little
damage and thus I propose that the cause of the Hydrogen Blast is not from Hydrogen
produced in the reactor and somehow leaked from the containment vessel into the building, but
instead all three buildings where destroyed by hydrogen produced in the spent fuel pools
This would then be a common cause of failure and most likely.

Why the SPF water level went low, certainly wave action initiated by the earthquake are a
cause, the earth shook for minutes instead of seconds, I believe 5 minutes, Kobe earthquake
was 15 seconds. Other reasons like leakage or borrowing water for cooling reactor to avoid
meltdown, we can speculate.
TCups
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#821
Mar22-11, 08:00 AM
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Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
First: regarding 10 - Reactor 4 looks in a pretty good shape to me after explosion of reactor 3
Yes it does. OK, thanks Anton. What to you think about the possibility of shrapnel damage that might not be obvious as the etiology of the fire at Unit 4?

Refresh my memory -- only one major explosion at Unit 3, and as far as I remember, no major explosion that I can immediately recall reported at Unit 4, right?

Is it possible that the shock wave could have done internal damage to the inside of Unit 4 or to the structural integrity of Unit 4 that might not be immediately visible in the satellite photo? Certainly the roof isn't peeled back as it appears to be in later photos.

Maybe there was distortion or spherical aberration from the camera lens shooting through the helicopter window that makes one of the structural columns at the NE corner of Unit 4 look slightly bucked inward. Hmmm. . .

All of my fly over image frames are on the home computer and I am at work. More to study this evening.

Suggestions?
TCups
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#822
Mar22-11, 08:12 AM
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Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
BLAST MECHANISM AT FUKUSHIMA

Observed are three catastrophic explosions Unit 1, 3 and 4 with pretty much the same
consequence and thus I propose that the cause of the Hydrogen Blast is not from Hydrogen
produced in the reactor and somehow leaked from the containment vessel into the building, but
instead all three buildings where destroyed by hydrogen produced in the spent fuel pools
This would then be a common cause of failure and most likely.

Why the SPF water level went low, certainly wave action initiated by the earthquake are a
cause, the earth shook for minutes instead of seconds, I believe 5 minutes, Kobe earthquake
was 15 seconds. Other reasons like leakage or borrowing water for cooling reactor to avoid
meltdown, we can speculate.
IMO, the overall force demonstrable from collateral damage, and vertical component of the blast at Unit 3, demonstrable from the videos of same, are, I contend, much stronger and much different from any at Units 1 and 4. Do you agree?

Is there any video of a catastrophic blast at Unit 4? If so, I have overlooked it and need to review it. Thanks.
AntonL
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#823
Mar22-11, 08:38 AM
P: 521
Quote Quote by TCups View Post
IMO, the overall force demonstrable from collateral damage, and vertical component of the blast at Unit 3, demonstrable from the videos of same, are, I contend, much stronger and much different from any at Units 1 and 4. Do you agree?

Is there any video of a catastrophic blast at Unit 4? If so, I have overlooked it and need to review it. Thanks.
I agree Unit 3 has spectacular column of dust rising, Unit 1 also has a similar vertical
component but without dust, Unit 1 has a steel upper structure with bolted on steel panels,
Unit 3 has a concrete upper structure with concrete panels, these are stronger so the roof
gave first in Unit 3 instead of the side panels as in Unit 1

I have not seen any video of 4 exploding. All 4 reactors are reported to have had hydrogen
blast with various force and damage. The force is equivalent to the amount of hydrogen
accumulated. If the SFP are boiling the air O2 would have been displaced by the steam and
furthermore would have been sucked up by the zirconium first before it extracted the oxygen
from the H20, Thus the atmosphere in the empty pool would be H20 and H2, only separating
outside the pool and fate determined how much H2 would accumulate in the building before
the bang.

Here is a time line of the explosions.
Unit 1 - 12.03.2011 at 15:36
Unit 3 - 14.03.2011 at 11:01
Unit 4 - 15.03.2011 at 06:14
Unit 2 - 15.03.2011 at 06:20

In all the reactors 1 to 3 the containment vessels where vented after reactor venting.
curious11
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#824
Mar22-11, 08:39 AM
P: 20
Quote Quote by artax View Post
just found some more video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX_Zdh8fCic
Have we not seen this vid already.
In any case, there are some interesting features :

At 1:14 we can possibly see the green crane over the SFP?

What is this feature? It looks like the top of a whiskey distillery. Note the round opening at the top.


Any idea what the brown/orange stuff is ?
Attached Thumbnails
s1.jpg   s2.jpg   s3.jpg  
artax
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#825
Mar22-11, 08:42 AM
P: 159
Yes but they've been pulled from you tube so thought I would re-post! your obs. are interesting, that whisky thing could be the top of reactor vessel, and yes... no idea what the brown stuff is but don't know what those pipes were carrying before, steam probably as they run to the chimney stacks. there's a lot of info in these vids so I'm surprised no 'experts' have analysed them.

THERMAL IMAGE OF REACTORS for those interested theres a discussion on housepricecrashforum, where one poster has posted this recent thermal image:
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau...ke/heatAll.jpg

This is a very interesting science/engineering problem and the lack of information is just so frustrating.
curious11
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#826
Mar22-11, 08:50 AM
P: 20
Quote Quote by artax View Post
Yes but they've been pulled from you tube so thought I would re-post! your obs. are interesting, there's a lot of info in these vids so I'm surprised no 'experts' have analysed them.
Of course! Sorry if I sounded out of turn!
TCups
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#827
Mar22-11, 09:06 AM
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Quote Quote by AntonL View Post
I agree Unit 3 has spectacular column of dust rising, Unit 1 also has a similar vertical
component but without dust, Unit 1 has a steel upper structure with bolted on steel panels,
Unit 3 has a concrete upper structure with concrete panels, these are stronger so the roof
gave first in Unit 4 instead of the side panels as in Unit 3
???
I can't quite understand what you are saying.

Unit 1 has a (weaker) steel upper structure with bolted on steel panels (OK)
Unit 3 has a concrete upper structure with concrete panels, these are stronger (than Unit 1?)
The roof (of Unit 4?) gave first
The side panels of Unit 3 gave first (because?)

Can you clarify, I don't think I follow completely. Thanks.
AntonL
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#828
Mar22-11, 09:14 AM
P: 521
Quote Quote by TCups View Post
???
I can't quite understand what you are saying.

Unit 1 has a (weaker) steel upper structure with bolted on steel panels (OK)
Unit 3 has a concrete upper structure with concrete panels, these are stronger (than Unit 1?)
The roof (of Unit 4?) gave first
The side panels of Unit 3 gave first (because?)

Can you clarify, I don't think I follow completely. Thanks.
TCups like your North South
Unit 3 has a concrete upper structure with concrete panels, these are stronger (than Unit 1)
The roof (of Unit 3) gave first as concrete structure side panels are stronger putting more force on the roof.
The side panels of Unit 1 gave first (because?) as seen in video.

I have edited original post accordingly


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