The "more political thread" besides "Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants" scientific one

Danuta

Unbelievable. Restart in July folks.

"The Hamaoka plant, 200 kilometres (120 miles) southwest of Tokyo, sits near an active earthquake zone that the government has forecast carries an 87 percent chance of producing a magnitude-8 or stronger earthquake in the next 30 years."

"With regard to tsunami countermeasures for their nuclear plant, they have done virtually nothing."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7FS3IS20110428

rowmag

Unreasonable? For a global news organization?

And why do you assume the only bilingual people are history and literature specialists?

But in any case, I think the main area of importance (besides language ability, but that should be a precondition) is some intelligence and ability to learn quick. There are not that many nuclear power experts in the world, and news media would use such experts for in-depth analysis interviews, not for covering press conferences.

Which was my point number 1).

(And I gave you the exact wording that was used in Japanese in the other thread, to show how problematic the translation was.)

Dmytry

Well if the news didn't even teach their own translator that it doesn't spread like infectious disease, how are they to teach the public?

If there is some linguistic issue - e.g. if they are using the word commonly used for infectious diseases to describe radiation sickness or cancer - then translator would have a lot of advantage over people who don't speak English.

Also, I do not think it is at all unreasonable demand for a developed country's media to be able to find someone who understands radiation, and to have that person show how it works with the counter. Get his hand slightly contaminated, wash it, etc. A propaganda trick it may be but it is better than nothing. Reuse the 'dirt' intuition.
Really, anyone with physics degree should know it. Is Japanese scientific education system much behind? I know Japanese did quite a bit of theoretical physics, e.g. i know of Yukawa. I don't particularly like Michio Kaku but he isn't stupid either and he's quite common on TV in US.

rowmag

The translator is not talking to the (Japanese-speaking) public, she was speaking to foreign journalists. Yes, she did not seem to have been chosen for her scientific intuition, but things like that will happen, and perhaps corrected later if caught. As I said, her job is a very difficult one, working on the fly like that.

As I told you before, the word "contamination" was not used in the Japanese original statement.

As I explained, there has been a parade of physicists on the news programs, explaining various details of what radiation is and what to do about it.

If you don't like that they didn't use your particular visual gimmick (and for that matter, perhaps someone did -- I can't watch all the news shows simultaneously), then perhaps you could volunteer your services as presentation consultant.

Minor point of correction: Michio Kaku is not Japanese.

Dmytry

What ever. The point is that if not even the translator who's constantly having to listen to the news learns it, then, the public probably won't learn it either. Public is not chosen for scientific intuition either.

Weren't you surprised how non-uniform it is? That youtube video. How it can differ so much within single yard.

jlduh

India rejects the authorization for the building of new reactors after the accidents in Japan

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/29_06.html

Recently there has been a lot of protests against the contsruction of new nuclear plants in India (with the project of the biggest one in the world with 10 000 Mwatts).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8547436.stm

And even more recently, the police killed one person and 50 persons were injured during riots after a new protest against this plant:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13124773

Danuta

Sorry for the between posts interruption of thought here but I'm sure this GE tidbit will get nuked on the other thread so I'll deposit it here too if nobody minds. "Use of Weapons"----thanks for the ZH mention, dude!

Media assets owned by GE(General Electric). (they own a lot more stuff unrelated to media too) What about AREVA? (wouldn't want their uranium mining shares to tank) Hitachi? Not to worry, the royal wedding will get coverage.

It's interesting observing the effect(no media coverage) but one really has to look at the cause. Or causes.

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Guest Member

GE doesn't own the Associated Press but AP is still waiting on 3 FOIA requests from NRC and haven't gotten them. Right now, NRC isn't complying with requests.

Requests from AP to NRC -
1. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC, the Department of Energy, GE Energy and Hitachi-GE Nuclear Energy pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
2. access to and copies of all
internal communications within the NRC (including its chairman, four commissioners and their staff
members) pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
3. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC and government counterparts in Japan pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

Danuta

Much, much happier than using sunflowers. Those would only just brighten your day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_660529.html

jlduh

TEPCO vice president Norio Tsuzumi recognizes this desaster is a MAN MADE DISASTER and not a natural one. At least he recognizes that...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_09.html

When he adds that

does he remembers that he is... Vice President? That remark is kind of surprising, man!

But at least, that's one of the firsts times is see from this industry that kind of recognition of their responsability and lack of precautions. For the first time, do they they simply... DOUBT?

Doubt is IMHO the stuff that lacks the most in this industry very self assured of it's safety and superiority -especially when we consider the possible concentrated and extended consequences of its impacts in case of severe accidents, which is WAY beyond what are the risks in any other industry .

And not only in Japan...

jlduh

More workers to be sent to Fukushima?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_11.html

Well, when you consider the situation and the numbers of workers involved until now, and compare it to what has been done at Tchernobyl, it is clear to me that the difference is huge and without any comparison in fact.

Considering what has to be done to stabilize the situation and THEN to contain this mess in a kind of sarcophagus, it's clear that the number of people necessary will be even bigger than at Tchernobyl where a lot received much more than what they should have!

The numbers of workers will be a direct result of the work to be done (HUGE, and even more than that!) and the limit of time that radioactivity imposes to each one, so you can imagine...

To me this desaster will at the end involve even more workers than at Tchernobyl.

Dmytry

So, what happened to this? How serious is this violation? Is it something everyone violates all the time, or is it rare?

jlduh

Well, to me this is really one of the main reasons of the low social acceptance of this industry in many countries, to be related to some other reasons i developped in a post above. This technology has been developped at first by military engineers for military reasons, and this culture of secrecy (the Top Secret culture of the military world) has always been glued to this technology. Private companies have developped big efforts to repeat "We are transparent" (and paid a lot of money to com agencies to do it!) but this is totally ruined when we consider for example this kind of behaviour from the NRC in front of AP's request which fits under legal rights.

What happened here in France in 1986 was an other example (i was then a young engineer, i got my 20 years old birthday in April 1986 so Tchernobyl has been a big milestone in my life...): the cover up of real contamination data by french government, and especially the so called "professor Pellerin" who used false numbers in the medias to demonstrate that the radioactive cloud stopped at the boundary between Germany and France. These false data lead to no protective measures for people, especially in Corsica (an island of France) and Alsace area where i now live, which ended up with demonstrated increased numbers of thyroid cancers because people were drinking contaminated milk, eating contaminated mushrooms, and so on. This is unacceptable. But Mr Pellerin was previously a military general, so this was a "normal policy" guess. Business as usual i would say.

As long as this industry will continue that kind of opacity on the numbers and the real risks, there will be a growing number of opponents because this is just not acceptable in a normal democracy. This is perhaps possible in a Gadhafi Democracy, so maybe they have the solution if they want to continue the same way they did for decades: hire Gadhafi as a consultant. If they don't accept this, then they have to change their practices. A civil power industry CANNOT be managed in a military style in a respectable democracy. Period.

A new example in Japan, from the news:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/02_32.html

Well, this panic fear has always been the reason invoked for doing so. Well if the nuclear industry is not a dangerous one, if there is no risk as it is always said, then why fearing panic? There is a very strong contradiction within their strategy of communication and this becomes more and more counter-productive to demonstrate what they want to demonstrate, that they are (supposedly) transparent.

Saying is one thing, doing is an other. And now history has long list of events and examples to illustrate this.

jlduh

This is the first time i see this, times are changing: Shareholders call for nuclear plant closures!

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/02_31.html

Well, sharelolders are also sometimes citizens... and they could even be citizen impacted by the accidents of their companies!

Danuta

An excellent read.

Ties Bind Japan Nuke Sector, Regulators

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...069237,00.html

"Regulators simply didn't see it as their role to pick apart the
utility's raw data and computer modeling to judge for themselves
whether the plant was sufficiently protected from tsunami. The policy
amounted to this: Trust plant operator TEPCO — and don't worry
about verifying its math or its logic."

jlduh

I post this recent video which debunks MSNBC propaganda proposed at the date of 25th anniversary of Chernobyl accident. MSNBC is owned by GE who also built some of the reactors at Fukushima.

If you didn't know that people returning living in the controled zone around Chernobyl are in fact living LONGER than the ones staying outside, then it's probably because you didn't hear MSNBC propaganda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7BlJ...eature=related

For a long time nuclear activities, even the "civil" ones, were managed in military styles. Now, in addition, private companies make marketing out of them.

In the first case, the lies were called "top secret defense". Now they are called "communication and propaganda for the masses"...

jlduh

Well, it seems Kan is moving faster now on this subject!

Kan calls for halt of Hamaoka nuclear reactors


http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/06_31.html