The "more political thread" besides "Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants" scientific one


by jlduh
Tags: scientific
rowmag
rowmag is offline
#55
Apr28-11, 07:07 PM
P: 209
Quote Quote by Dmytry View Post
Well if the news didn't even teach their own translator that it doesn't spread like infectious disease, how are they to teach the public?
The translator is not talking to the (Japanese-speaking) public, she was speaking to foreign journalists. Yes, she did not seem to have been chosen for her scientific intuition, but things like that will happen, and perhaps corrected later if caught. As I said, her job is a very difficult one, working on the fly like that.

If there is some linguistic issue - e.g. if they are using the word commonly used for infectious diseases to describe radiation sickness or cancer - then translator would have a lot of advantage over people who don't speak English.
As I told you before, the word "contamination" was not used in the Japanese original statement.

Also, I do not think it is at all unreasonable demand for a developed country's media to be able to find someone who understands radiation, and to have that person show how it works with the counter. Get his hand slightly contaminated, wash it, etc. A propaganda trick it may be but it is better than nothing. Reuse the 'dirt' intuition.
Really, anyone with physics degree should know it. Is Japanese scientific education system much behind? I know Japanese did quite a bit of theoretical physics, e.g. i know of Yukawa.
As I explained, there has been a parade of physicists on the news programs, explaining various details of what radiation is and what to do about it.

If you don't like that they didn't use your particular visual gimmick (and for that matter, perhaps someone did -- I can't watch all the news shows simultaneously), then perhaps you could volunteer your services as presentation consultant.

I don't particularly like Michio Kaku but he isn't stupid either and he's quite common on TV in US.
Minor point of correction: Michio Kaku is not Japanese.
Dmytry
Dmytry is offline
#56
Apr28-11, 07:16 PM
P: 505
What ever. The point is that if not even the translator who's constantly having to listen to the news learns it, then, the public probably won't learn it either. Public is not chosen for scientific intuition either.

Weren't you surprised how non-uniform it is? That youtube video. How it can differ so much within single yard.
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#57
Apr29-11, 03:25 AM
P: 468
India rejects the authorization for the building of new reactors after the accidents in Japan

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/29_06.html

Recently there has been a lot of protests against the contsruction of new nuclear plants in India (with the project of the biggest one in the world with 10 000 Mwatts).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8547436.stm

And even more recently, the police killed one person and 50 persons were injured during riots after a new protest against this plant:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13124773
Danuta
Danuta is offline
#58
Apr29-11, 10:41 AM
P: 100
Sorry for the between posts interruption of thought here but I'm sure this GE tidbit will get nuked on the other thread so I'll deposit it here too if nobody minds. "Use of Weapons"----thanks for the ZH mention, dude!

Quote Quote by jlduh
Well, i can confirm that here in France, the medias have completely left this subject out. They just mentioned the 25 Anniversary of the Thernobyl accident and of course the various events and protests in relation with this. But Fukushima has disappeared from their scope. I guess they would probably show some images if some new explosions were happening. As i said in other places, radioactivity is invisible and complex, so this is not good for medias audiences...

More surprising the french IRSN has completely stopped (since almost one month) to report what is going on at Fukushima, except in a weekly basis but more for the french citizens leaving in Japan. So basically difficult, outside of this forum (and because we all now have recorded the links to where to go to compile infos) to follow what is going on there...
Maybe this explains it.
Media assets owned by GE(General Electric). (they own a lot more stuff unrelated to media too) What about AREVA? (wouldn't want their uranium mining shares to tank) Hitachi? Not to worry, the royal wedding will get coverage.

It's interesting observing the effect(no media coverage) but one really has to look at the cause. Or causes.

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Guest Member
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#59
Apr29-11, 11:04 AM
P: 6
Quote Quote by Danuta View Post
Sorry for the between posts interruption of thought here but I'm sure my GE tidbit will get nuked on the other thread so I'll deposit it somewhere more sheltered, if nobody minds.


It's interesting observing the effect(no media coverage) but one really has to look at the cause. Or one of the causes.

Media assets owned by GE(General Electric). (they own a lot more stuff unrelated to media too)
Not to worry, the royal wedding will get coverage.
GE doesn't own the Associated Press but AP is still waiting on 3 FOIA requests from NRC and haven't gotten them. Right now, NRC isn't complying with requests.

Requests from AP to NRC -
1. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC, the Department of Energy, GE Energy and Hitachi-GE Nuclear Energy pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
2. access to and copies of all
internal communications within the NRC (including its chairman, four commissioners and their staff
members) pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
3. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC and government counterparts in Japan pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.
Danuta
Danuta is offline
#60
Apr30-11, 01:27 PM
P: 100
Quote Quote by jlduh
The happiest news since a long time:

http://americasforum.org/archives/427
Much, much happier than using sunflowers. Those would only just brighten your day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_660529.html
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#61
May1-11, 02:17 AM
P: 468
TEPCO vice president Norio Tsuzumi recognizes this desaster is a MAN MADE DISASTER and not a natural one. At least he recognizes that...

When he was asked if he thinks of the nuclear crisis a man-made disaster or a natural disaster, he said personally he thinks it is a man-made disaster.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_09.html

When he adds that

[...] some say the nuclear accident in Fukushima was beyond any expectations but personally he thinks adequate precautions should have been in place
does he remembers that he is... Vice President? That remark is kind of surprising, man!

But at least, that's one of the firsts times is see from this industry that kind of recognition of their responsability and lack of precautions. For the first time, do they they simply... DOUBT?

Doubt is IMHO the stuff that lacks the most in this industry very self assured of it's safety and superiority -especially when we consider the possible concentrated and extended consequences of its impacts in case of severe accidents, which is WAY beyond what are the risks in any other industry .

And not only in Japan...
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#62
May1-11, 02:28 AM
P: 468
More workers to be sent to Fukushima?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/01_11.html

Well, when you consider the situation and the numbers of workers involved until now, and compare it to what has been done at Tchernobyl, it is clear to me that the difference is huge and without any comparison in fact.

Considering what has to be done to stabilize the situation and THEN to contain this mess in a kind of sarcophagus, it's clear that the number of people necessary will be even bigger than at Tchernobyl where a lot received much more than what they should have!

The numbers of workers will be a direct result of the work to be done (HUGE, and even more than that!) and the limit of time that radioactivity imposes to each one, so you can imagine...

To me this desaster will at the end involve even more workers than at Tchernobyl.
Dmytry
Dmytry is offline
#63
May2-11, 06:34 AM
P: 505
Quote Quote by Guest Member View Post
Speaking of the NRC and political BS-

The US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was sent Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests for information from the Associated Press (AP) on March 16.

The AP is a not-for-profit cooperative, which means it is owned by its 1,500 U.S. daily newspaper members. AP serves 1,700 newspapers and 5,000 radio and television outlets in the United States as well as newspaper, radio and television subscribers internationally.

The AP sent 3 requests:
1. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC, the Department of Energy, GE Energy and Hitachi-GE Nuclear Energy pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
2. access to and copies of all
internal communications within the NRC (including its chairman, four commissioners and their staff
members) pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March II earthquake and tsunami.
3. access to and copies of all communications between the NRC and government counterparts in Japan pertaining to the Japanese nuclear incidents caused by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

The statute requires that NRC respond within 20 business days to the request. In unusaul circumstances, the NRC could extend that time by an additional 10 business days to give themselves time to collect the information requested.

Yesterday was business day 30, which should have meant that even with the 10 day extension, NRC should have provided all the information ro AP. But they didn't.

All of those newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations that depend on AP for their news are not able to provide accurate information until the NRC releases the info. Right now, NRC is in violation of the statute for not complying with the 30 day maximum law.
So, what happened to this? How serious is this violation? Is it something everyone violates all the time, or is it rare?
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#64
May2-11, 03:27 PM
P: 468
Well, to me this is really one of the main reasons of the low social acceptance of this industry in many countries, to be related to some other reasons i developped in a post above. This technology has been developped at first by military engineers for military reasons, and this culture of secrecy (the Top Secret culture of the military world) has always been glued to this technology. Private companies have developped big efforts to repeat "We are transparent" (and paid a lot of money to com agencies to do it!) but this is totally ruined when we consider for example this kind of behaviour from the NRC in front of AP's request which fits under legal rights.

What happened here in France in 1986 was an other example (i was then a young engineer, i got my 20 years old birthday in April 1986 so Tchernobyl has been a big milestone in my life...): the cover up of real contamination data by french government, and especially the so called "professor Pellerin" who used false numbers in the medias to demonstrate that the radioactive cloud stopped at the boundary between Germany and France. These false data lead to no protective measures for people, especially in Corsica (an island of France) and Alsace area where i now live, which ended up with demonstrated increased numbers of thyroid cancers because people were drinking contaminated milk, eating contaminated mushrooms, and so on. This is unacceptable. But Mr Pellerin was previously a military general, so this was a "normal policy" guess. Business as usual i would say.

As long as this industry will continue that kind of opacity on the numbers and the real risks, there will be a growing number of opponents because this is just not acceptable in a normal democracy. This is perhaps possible in a Gadhafi Democracy, so maybe they have the solution if they want to continue the same way they did for decades: hire Gadhafi as a consultant. If they don't accept this, then they have to change their practices. A civil power industry CANNOT be managed in a military style in a respectable democracy. Period.

A new example in Japan, from the news:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/02_32.html

The secretary-general of the joint task force and prime the minister's advisor, Goshi Hosono, apologized for the delay in releasing the data.

Hosono said the task force withheld the information because some data were based on overly rigorous assumptions and feared it may trigger panic.
Well, this panic fear has always been the reason invoked for doing so. Well if the nuclear industry is not a dangerous one, if there is no risk as it is always said, then why fearing panic? There is a very strong contradiction within their strategy of communication and this becomes more and more counter-productive to demonstrate what they want to demonstrate, that they are (supposedly) transparent.

Saying is one thing, doing is an other. And now history has long list of events and examples to illustrate this.
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#65
May2-11, 03:37 PM
P: 468
This is the first time i see this, times are changing: Shareholders call for nuclear plant closures!

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/02_31.html

Some of the shareholders of a Japanese electric power company say they want the utility to close its nuclear power plants.

On Monday, a group of 232 individual stockholders of Tohoku Electric Power Company submitted the documents needed for their proposal to scrap its nuclear power plants.
Well, sharelolders are also sometimes citizens... and they could even be citizen impacted by the accidents of their companies!
Danuta
Danuta is offline
#66
May4-11, 07:19 PM
P: 100
An excellent read.

Ties Bind Japan Nuke Sector, Regulators

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...069237,00.html

"Regulators simply didn't see it as their role to pick apart the
utility's raw data and computer modeling to judge for themselves
whether the plant was sufficiently protected from tsunami. The policy
amounted to this: Trust plant operator TEPCO — and don't worry
about verifying its math or its logic."
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#67
May5-11, 04:47 PM
P: 468
I post this recent video which debunks MSNBC propaganda proposed at the date of 25th anniversary of Chernobyl accident. MSNBC is owned by GE who also built some of the reactors at Fukushima.

If you didn't know that people returning living in the controled zone around Chernobyl are in fact living LONGER than the ones staying outside, then it's probably because you didn't hear MSNBC propaganda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7BlJ...eature=related

For a long time nuclear activities, even the "civil" ones, were managed in military styles. Now, in addition, private companies make marketing out of them.

In the first case, the lies were called "top secret defense". Now they are called "communication and propaganda for the masses"...
jlduh
jlduh is offline
#68
May6-11, 07:47 AM
P: 468
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
about the Hamaoka restart and reassessment of risks related to earthquake:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_39.html

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_39.html
Well, it seems Kan is moving faster now on this subject!

Kan calls for halt of Hamaoka nuclear reactors


http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/06_31.html

Kan announced the decision on Friday, citing the need to better secure the plant against earthquakes and tsunami in the wake of the nuclear accident at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

The prime minister says he has asked the plant operator, Chubu Electric Power Company, to halt reactors No.4 and No.5, and not to restart reactor No.3, which is now offline for regular inspections.
Dmytry
Dmytry is offline
#69
May6-11, 11:34 AM
P: 505
Quote Quote by jlduh View Post
I post this recent video which debunks MSNBC propaganda proposed at the date of 25th anniversary of Chernobyl accident. MSNBC is owned by GE who also built some of the reactors at Fukushima.

If you didn't know that people returning living in the controled zone around Chernobyl are in fact living LONGER than the ones staying outside, then it's probably because you didn't hear MSNBC propaganda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7BlJ...eature=related

For a long time nuclear activities, even the "civil" ones, were managed in military styles. Now, in addition, private companies make marketing out of them.

In the first case, the lies were called "top secret defense". Now they are called "communication and propaganda for the masses"...
holy ****.
Well, those people may be living longer, if you are speaking of the russians who are effectively finding refugee in the zone from various crap that happens in Russia. I mean, if the mafia is after you, you may go to zone and avoid getting killed by mafia, and thus live longer.

It really is reminiscent of the anthropogenic global warming. The industry always denies effects of the pollutants, tries to bribe scientists with 'research grants' (some, successfully), etc. The people in zone living longer? It's primarily old folks in the zone! (And just a very few young folks whom are hiding from something) No **** if you take average age, or average age at death even, it'll be larger.
Luca Bevil
Luca Bevil is offline
#70
May8-11, 05:14 AM
P: 87
Hi to everyone.

I am sorry I am late in joining the discussions around this interesting forum.

having said that energy production, especially nuclear energy production, is a sensitive issues that ignites sometimes overheated discussions, i have to say that I found most if not all posts made by Dmitry extremely well informed and impronted to a sane scientific and risk averse attitude that is the only attitude that can prevent or at least substantially reduce the risk of further nightmares.

Thank you Dmitry for sharing with us.
zapperzero
zapperzero is offline
#71
May8-11, 07:53 AM
P: 1,030
Trying to keep my uninformed rants off the main thread:

As of now, it seems like there's a temp spike on the bottom of #3. This spells corium to me, so new massive releases are a distinct possibility again. This time, the predominant winds are shifting inland.

I guess the political lesson to be learned is don't eff around with already-blasted nuclear reactors. Go all in fast and hard, involve the army, accept any outside help you can get (especially from neighbors), use the wave of popular anger and fear to get volunteers and secure political support NOW for what are sure to be illegal measures and rather un-popular ones in the medium term. The Obama administration had no trouble securing a ban on new drilling in the Gulf during the Macondo crisis.

Some contamination on-site and in the environs is to be expected, some people may get hurt in the haste. Don't sweat it. Heroes are good for the national psyche. It beats having to wait around for the next criticality/explosion/tsunami/quake/typhoon while apologizing profusely and trying to pre-emptively shift blame like some god-damn weasel.

Yeah, I'm angry. Does it show?
robinson
robinson is offline
#72
May8-11, 11:27 AM
P: 201
A lot of people are angry. And frightened. It's a normal response to such a situation.


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